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My favorite GM had a table rule. No one dies unless they did something incredibly stupid, or they want to. (Our characters were each pivotal to the plot. Any of them being dead would have mucked it up pretty badly.)

Trying to take on a ranger 3.5 times the APL is in the first category. Would you also be trying to find a way to dumb down a Wyrm Red Dragon for them? Have him out there in his Leather Armor +X, with his Black Arrows of Human bane. (If you want to be nice, also stack merciful on there; he is a slaver, and dead people net you little profits)

You are under no obligation to coddle them if they want to take the risks. I would be very upfront about this with them, though. "This is an extreme fight, you will likely all die. Are you sure you don't want to get your revenge later?" Then introduce them to the concept of "The List" (The semi-mythical sheet of paper that the characters/players write the names and locations of anyone they are reserving a beatdown for. Once they hit level 7-10 they can come pay him a little visit.)

Personally, I would have them come upon him checking a trap, and the halfling can backstab him, and it turns out to be a makeshift dummy. They hear his mocking laughter from the treeline, and then begins the deadly game of cat and mouse as they try and make it back to town with all their extremities. Maybe the ranger catches one on his own and takes a finger/toe/ear as a keepsake. (Or a eye, a la Kill Bill.)

I normally don't reccomend a GM torment the PCs like this, but once they have been warned that they are outclassed, and this is not an encounter in the adventure; and they continue? Well, then the gloves come off.

This is not about you trying to "beat" the players. that's not the point of the game. But it IS your responsibility to show them that actions have consequences. If they don't it will be a weak, watery, unsatisfying campaign. (Nerfing the ranger is the equivalent of letting them type in IDSPISPOPD (very very old god-mode code from the demo version of DOOM.))


The real problem with the vorpal stool is that you're spending a metric buttload of ki to give it the vorpal quality, per round. Chances of lucking into a nat 20 in that time? slim.


Reacting after you've been damaged is a little late to get your Dex to your AC. If they are changing the wording, they are likely just making it clear what they already meant. I can only think that you are supporting this because you enjoy arguing or you hate stealth, either way, the rules do support sneak attack from stealth.


Yes it does, DrDeth. You just have to look around a little.

Sneak Attack wrote:
The rogue's attack deals extra damage (called "precision damage") anytime her target would be denied a Dexterity bonus to AC (whether the target actually has a Dexterity bonus or not), or when the rogue flanks her target.
Armor Class wrote:
If you can't react to a blow, you can't use your Dexterity bonus to AC.

Or are you saying the rules allow you to react to opponents you are unaware of?


Combine with Skill Mastery at 10th level, and not much should get by you.


Pick up the trap spotter rogue talent. makes it a reflexive check.


Damn, fooled by the glowing, shrieking rope that can be seen through walls!


Very crafty indeed! Just hope the stealther doesn't have a readied action to put an arrow in you if you start casting a spell.


Now if the Party's smart, they'll lay the rope agaist a wall and use a silent image to make the wall 2" furher into the room.

w=wall
r=rope
i=illusion

w r i
| / |
| / |
| / |
| / |

I doubt the scout's walking down the hall with his hand on the wall, I know I don't in my house.

Edit, ok, not silent image, illusory wall.


And the party rogue stealted at the top of the rope ginsu's the scout in the face as he pokes it into the pocket dimension. One at a time monsters who are flat footed are jokes. The wizzy and cleric can even keep their earplugs in.


Your PCs have never tried the old Rope Trick?


Upon closer inspection, yes, you are not noticed (this means you retain the hidden condition) until they are within 5 feet of you, so Sniping is a go. If you're more then 5 feet above their head, they're screwed.


Im wondering if just the final pinpoint is what breaks stealth. I would love to be able to snipe those damned dogs.

Or, failing that, I'll find a wizard to research a spell that makes me scentless.


Well, that link clinches it. As retarded as that ruling is, it is the rules.


No, absolute zero is the lack of temperature or entropy. It's a theoretical state because there's a quantum level of energy that cannot be removed. Nothing about a crystal tho.


It always pisses me off that people think that Scent automatically trumps stealth.

The rule says no such thing, save for a bit of flavor text. Nowhere in the ability does it say that it IGNORES Stealth.

Quote:

This special quality allows a creature to detect approaching enemies, sniff out hidden foes, and track by sense of smell. creatures with the scent ability can identify familiar odors just as humans do familiar sights.

The creature can detect opponents within 30 feet by sense of smell. If the opponent is upwind, the range increases to 60 feet; if downwind, it drops to 15 feet. Strong scents, such as smoke or rotting garbage, can be detected at twice the ranges noted above. Overpowering scents, such as skunk musk or troglodyte stench, can be detected at triple normal range.

When a creature detects a scent, the exact location of the source is not revealed—only its presence somewhere within range. The creature can take a move action to note the direction of the scent. When the creature is within 5 feet of the source, it pinpoints the source’s location.

A creature with the scent ability can follow tracks by smell, making a Wisdom (or Survival) check to find or follow a track. The typical DC for a fresh trail is 10 (no matter what kind of surface holds the scent). This DC increases or decreases depending on how strong the quarry’s odor is, the number of creatures, and the age of the trail. For each hour that the trail is cold, the DC increases by 2. The ability otherwise follows the rules for the Survival skill. creatures tracking by scent ignore the effects of surface conditions and poor visibility.

Would someone be so kind as to point out WHICH part of that rule even mentions the Stealth skill? The only things which I could see this negating are Invisibility and Silence.

Now for Blindsight, things are different, because the rule actually mentions something that Stealth depends on.

Quote:
This ability is similar to blindsense, but is far more discerning. Using non-visual senses, such as sensitivity to vibrations, keen smell, acute hearing, or echolocation, a creature with blindsight maneuvers and fights as well as a sighted creature. Invisibility, darkness, and most kinds of concealment are irrelevant, though the creature must have line of effect to a creature or object to discern that creature or object. The ability's range is specified in the creature's descriptive text. The creature usually does not need to make Perception checks to notice creatures within range of its blindsight ability. Unless noted otherwise, blindsight is continuous, and the creature need do nothing to use it. Some forms of blindsight, however, must be triggered as a free action. If so, this is noted in the creature's description. If a creature must trigger its blindsight ability, the creature gains the benefits of blindsight only during its turn.

Now forgive me from not copying the entirety of the Perception section, but this is the relevent bit.

Quote:


Creatures with the scent special quality have a +8 bonus on Perception checks made to detect a scent.
That bit right there says that creatures with scent still need to make Perception checks to notice things, i.e. charaters using Stealth. They're really GOOD at it, but it's not automatic like Blindsense/Blindsight. It CERTAINLY doesn't work if the Stealther in question makes
meabolex wrote:
a stealth check of 1000

The rules just DO NOT say that. So if you want a familiar to spot your Barbarian friend, get a Common Bat, that little guy has the Blindsense that makes him automatically succeed the Perception test to spot a Stealthed character.

P.S. If you want a real-world example of people with stealth beating Scent, watch either Cool Hand Luke, where he covers his trail with spices to break his scent, or a hunting show where the hunters slather themselves in deer urine to mask their own scent.


Glitterdust.
Detect thoughts.
Dust of Appearance.


It's very difficult to describe something without a frame of reference, and that's exactly what's going on. Just run it as RAW. It lets you pinpoint things in contact with the ground, which would tell you elevation as well.


My mistake it's a feat, Greater Steal. APG.


Do people actually find that 4 encounters wipe them out? (use their resources, not kill them) I never got that. A group of smart players could surely do far, far better. I've seen someone solo Crypt of the Everflame as a barbarian. Without sleeping. The only healing they got was the HPs from levelling.

When did PCs get hit with the wussbat?


@DQ

I was more looking at glibness combined with Rumormonger. Holy MONKIES. you could say whatever you wanted at first level. I'd even wager you could start a revolution with that.


You only get +1 Dex in Fullplate though.

So yeah, AC 25


Uhh, yeah, bard, OMG bard. One glibness check later and you can have everyone believing that the King is having an affair with the High-Cleric and their biggest kink is literally destroying tax money while summoning devils to crap on their chests before releasing them to kill townsfolk.

A skilled RPer could use that to such great effect. Thank you for bringing that to my attention!

Edit: Oh yeah, and tell a little white lie first, THEN drop the bombshell that needs the super DC Bluff checck.


"Holy crap you knocked his head clean off!"


I mostly boils down to the party MUs wanting to do things every round, and not being content with their mace or crossbows.

It may be the 2nd edition player in me, but I never demanded the party sleep after I cast my ONE magic missile.

Thank you all for the advice, honestly I've tried much of it before, and I don't mind PCs sleeping once or twice in-dungeon, it's the 15 room dungeon that takes two weeks to clear that makes my head hurt.

Time limits are a good way to go, I agree; we had a single day to complete the High Clerist's Tower. That was much more intense and fun than if we'd cleared it in a month. The problem, as has been noted, is that doing it too often makes it frustrating and stale.

I guess the PCs will have to deal with solo goblins and whatnot shooting them while they sleep if they leave the dungeon to rest-up.


I'm prepping for a new game, and I'm thinking back to the olden days. We never used to have the problem of the 15 minute work day (Taking an eight our rest after each fight) back before, say... 2005. I'm not sure what changed in my group since then (It happened after we finished the Dragonlance chronicles, in which we CERTAINLY didn't do it.) The few campaigns we tried to start since then always died quick deaths because the PCs blew their wads in every fight, so it wasn't a challenge unless the monsters were far too overpowering. How do you guys prevent this sort of tomfoolery. I tried the "You aren't tired yet", and they just left the dungeon and waited 24 hours. They didn't mind a casual respawn, and I got slapped with the proverbial "Killer GM" label when the entire dungeon emptied out to come for them.

Thanks in advance.


I take it that wild shape doesn't give tremorsense? Becasue dem earth elementals use that to "see." The reason they have norma sight is to see those damned air elementals when they surface to fight them.


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HEY, what's wrong with being a short, beardy, ale-swilling, mauntain-loving, fiscally enthusiastic Nord/Scto?


Now add on the taent that makes the target unaware that something has been stolen!


Actually, you're now using the victim as a "meat club" it's still unarmed attack, you're jusst pummling his allies with his impaled body.


well, you don't HAVE to give up those antics, as I said, a Martial artist uses his monk levels as fighter levels for feats (basically... see ultimate combat), and in the mean time you're progressing your flurry, AC, and unarmed damage.


Yes there is.

And Welcome to the fold!

Read about it here


Yes, I know all that, but you're giving up tons of monk abilites and upgrades for dipping those 4 levels. It's really not worth it.

Wait, Sohei? That doesn't grant weapon specialization. It gets weapon training.


And yes, you COULD go Fighter4 before dipping into monk, but that's just silly.


The OP was asking about Flurrying


You need weapon specialization in the weapon you have impaling crit for.


Ok I just got the image of both hands, both feet, and your face buried in the enemy. But you can use any part of your body, so... I guess. Honestly, I would say you're just punching the same hand deeper.

Edit: Keep in mind you MUST be a Martial Artist to do this.


Is there an Errata or FAQ where they have addressed this issue? The point is that there is no place in the rules where it says that AoMF can't use the throwing enchant. There are enchants that have RULES that prevent them from working with unarmed strikes (Keen and Vorpal) because it's the wrong damage type.

It's fine if you want to disallow it in your home games tho. The bottom line there is make up whatever rules you want.


Well, to be fair, that list does include the Throwing enchant. And it just says it CAN be thrown, not that it MUST be thrown to be used as a ranged weapon.


There are no strictly RAW reasons not to.

Based on this discussion, though, I'm making a witch with the prehensile hair hex, which then transfers to monk.


The problem with that statement is that it doesn't have a list of what can go on an AoMF....

Ok, I solved this particular issue. Just throw slingstones or whatever. You hands count as a weapon (if you place the throwing enchant on them, they have a range increment of 10,) and magic weapons bestow their enchantment of the ammunition you use with them. So if you have a monk, just pimp up your fists, and throw shurikens.


Trikk wrote:
Fenrisnorth wrote:

It sure reads to me like this:

20th level character with GTWF:

+20 attacks first Main/off or off/main
+15 attacks second Main/off or off/main
+10 attacks third Main/off or off/main
+5 attack last main

Not really, since the additional off hand attacks aren't gained from high BAB but from feats.

Ahh, I see. I thought it said you made your attacks in order of attack bonus.


It sure reads to me like this:

20th level character with GTWF:

+20 attacks first Main/off or off/main
+15 attacks second Main/off or off/main
+10 attacks third Main/off or off/main
+5 attack last main


Ah, but you forget it is now enchanted spit, and is being used as part of a monk's flurry, so is likely also ki-laden.

Heck I can't find the part where it says you have to let go of a thrown weapon in general. By RAW, it actually looks like you don't actually have to throw it. But that' can't be right, so I'm going to keep looking.


It's mostly in jest, but I can't think of a reason it wouldn't work, though it would look incredibly stupid.


So spitting is a go?


My reaction to you

That is all


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Well, I just had a thought. A monk can use any part of their body to flurry. What is he flurries by... spitting? It's sorta like a throwing attack...


If it makes you feel better, Wordcasting is pretty simple.

You have the Main Effect:
Fire Damage
Healing
Charming
etc.

The targetting:
Personal
Targetted
Mass

And other variables
Duration
Range
etc

and you just mix & match. It''s not super difficult, just search it out on the PFSRD, and read it over for 30 minutes.


So Fiery would burn the wielder too? I know I would be taking damage if I literally lit my hands on fire.

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