Rayhan Xobhadi

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Well my group just began WW and while we were discussing who is gonna play what. I went with Archon-blooded Celestial Bloodline Sorcerer and i will be going for a familiar via eldritch heritage feat picking up Archon, Harbringer, with Transformative Familiar path ability for him to turn into a staff for me to wield around. Why ? Cause it looks like pure awesome, but it brings me to a few questions regarding Transformative Familiar and Intelligent Items into which he can turn.

Transformative Familiar can be crafted as if you had a feat you need, that is all fine, but fun starts after that. It says familiar keeps his mental statistics, which is awesome, but brings about the question - does him keeping his mental stats cost as per table ? For example familiar with Int 14 transforming into an intelligent item would cost 1k GP. Next it goes to say that familiar can have intelligent powers, senses and all other fun fun stuff, but that brings about another question - how is CL for a familiar calculated exactly ?

This power merges familiars with intelligent items and while it is complete fun fun to do so, both gameplay wise and fluff wise, it leaves a lot of things without explanation.

Heya all, me and my friends are going to start a short campaign soon, arena type mini-campaign inspired by hunger games (book not movie). I jumped right ahead and took a Druid, made some pretty standard-ish build, but after what i saw others do with their characters (mainly cleric that went full necromancy, as well as sorcerer that did the same) i am here looking for help as i do not have as much free time as i used to make and research broken builds.

It is a 25 point buy, nothing is barred as far as i know so go nuts. It is a pretty theme-less druid and i would like to keep it that way. That being said, archtypes(not that i encountered any good ones), races, etc. all can be changed. No 3rd party stuff. I know i will be summoning tons of stirges to deal con based damage and ruin people should it come to players battling each other.

Build so far looking like this:
PT 25

Human Druid 7

Str 10
Dex 12 (2pt)
Con 15(17) (7pt [+2belt])
Int 12 (2pt)
Wis 20(22) (13pt +2 race +1 4th leel + [+2 headband])
Cha 10

Fort: 5+3+2=10
Refl: 2+2+2=6
Will: 5+5+2=12

Skills(4+2+1): Handle Animal; Heal; Knowledge (Nature); Perception; Spellcraft; Survival; Fly;

Feats: Spell Focus (Conjuration); Augment Summoning; Natural Spell; Superior Summoning; Toughness;


0(4+0)(DC16): Detect Magic; Know Direction; Purify Food and Drink; Mending ; Read Magic (S);

1(4+2)(DC17): Bristle (S); Charm Animal; Entangle; Faerie Fire (S); Long Strider (S); Ray of Sickening;

2(3+1)(DC18): Barkskin; Frigid Touch; Warp Wood; Feast of Ashes (S); Tree Shape (S); Neutralize Poison (S); Poison (S); Fog Cloud (S); Sickening Strikes (S);

3(2+1)(DC19): Call Lighting (S); Heatstroke; Water Breathing (S); Spike Growth; Sheet Lighting (S);Resinous Skin(Zavisi sta luka odogovori); Wind Wall(S);

4(1+1)(DC20): Atavism (S); Air Walk(S); Life Bubble; Giant Vermin (S);

Animal Companion (Big Cat, Lion):

Str 24(26) ( +2 level + 1ASI[+2 belt])
Dex 17
Con 17
Int 2
Wis 15
Cha 10

AC: 10 + 7 Nat + 3 Dex +4 AC -1 Size = 23

Fort: 5 +3 = 8
Refl: 5 +3 = 8
Will: 2 +2 = 4

Attack: 4 BAB + 8 STR -1PA -1 Size = +10

Attacks: +10 bite, +10 claw x2, +10 rake x2
Damage: 1d8+10 bite, 1d4+10 claw x2, 1d4+10 rake x2

Feats: Power Attack; Toughness; Armor Proficency (Light);

Skills: Swim

Wealth:23,500(7th level)
Me: Belt of Con +2(4k); Headband of Wisdom +2(4k); Rod of Reach, Lesser (3k); Wand of CLW (750); Cloak of Resistance +2 (4k); Potion of Invisibility x2 (600);

AC: Belt of Str +2(4k); Chain Shirt Barding (400);

Silver AND Magic, not Silver OR Magic. While its only Silver weapons, they don't have to be magical, but once its silver and magic, someone needs magical silver weapon to bypass DR.

Well, i mentioned AT, cause of spell progression. AA loses too many levels to come to all important Improved Invisibility, cause that is the simplest way to do full attack with a bow and have SA on all of them. You could go Chameleon, buffing up Stealth and Snipe rogue talent tree route, but then you need to get Vital Strike as well, just to stay in game later on, which is not a bad thing, just sub optimal as you can fail your Stealth as well. With AT your SA progresses with levels, with AA it does not. You are concerned about BAB ? There are so many spells that can help you with that one. From Reduce Size, giving you effectively +2 to attack, to invisibility, giving you another 2, GMW giving you +1 per 4 levels, and only spell i mentioned that goes round/level is Invis (If we take into account its Improved Invis). Oh yeah, there is also Heroism at what ? 3rd or 4th spell level for wizards ? So many buff spells, that got decent duration, that BAB is not really a problem at all. Problem is landing ranged sneak attacks. With HiPS you could do it once, then twice per round. Surprise action, shoot, 5-foot step, hide, then full attack, and in a full attack 5-foot step to hide again, and so on. Which is a bit of a pain. Improved Invis as a ring, is custom item, i know of DM's that do not allow custom made items, and it also costs somewhere in range of 200k even if DM allowed it. So yeah, if its ranged SA you want, either focus on sniping and Vital Strike, or survive 4-5 more levels till you get Improved Invis as a spell. OR you can always plead with DM to let you play a Pixie ...

Arcane Trickster might do the trick for you ? If you are already looking for a gish. AA is not best Archer, even less Sniper in the game, which is sad, but true. With Arcane Trickster, he can Snipe with Spells, as well as weapons. He won't lose caster levels so he will have that all important Imp. Invis sooner, etc.

In my honest opinion, if you want to go Rogue, and want a Archer/Sniper type of character, that is gish as well, go Arcane Trickster. He won't have Imbue Arrow, buhu, but he will have so much more freedom. If he wants Imbue Arrow he can always dip into AA for 2 levels then continue with Arcane Trickster.

Woah ... hehehe. i went to sleep and woke up to this.

Well, if specific armor is made of some specific metal in this case silver and gold, if you changed that specific metal to mithral, would it still be the same specific item ? I think not. Ridiculous example, but i just woke up, so i can't think of any normal ones, if you took a gold fish, removed its scales and added different color scales, would it still be a gold fish or something else ?

While there are no rules that disallow Mithral Celestial Armors specifically, there are no rules that allow it. And i am not talking about Creating Magic Item Rules, cause with those rules, you can't make Celestial Armor, i am talking about Modifying Specific Items Rule.

As for why i still don't take Celestial Armor anyway, well, cause its bad mojo, my DM would interpret that as cheese and than we would get into an argument that would be a lengthy one, where in the end it would boil down to "No, you are a Tiefling you can't wear Celestial Armor". All through by logic and common sense, my Evil Tiefling would do it, cause i don't remember cramping a style is higher priority to survival, which is somewhat a purpose of magic items.

Hmmm ... there is no such thing as a simple rogue ... rogue can be simple, but than you need full support of a team, guessing how that won't happen, there are few builds you can go, that are more or less effective on their own.

First one, that i still didn't try is Half-Orc, Thug Archtype,with Falchion. Key feats are Intimidating Prowess, Skill Focus (Intimidate), Dazzling Display and Shatter Defense. It would be great if someone else would go for Dazzling display too, so Rogue can delay and then use Shatter Defense to have Sneak Attacks versus Intimidated foe, but its not needed.

Second one, that i am playing at the moment, is Rogue/Shadow Dancer. Mind you, Shadow Dancer is a 3 level dip (4 if your player decides its cool to jump from shadow to shadow like me), cause of Shadow. That way, he always got his flanking buddy (except when things are immune to ability damage, i am guessing than Shadow doesn't even threaten, but that is my guess, its up to DM to decide), that can fly 80 feet per round (double move) and after level 13 or 14, got even greater synergy when Rogue picks up Cripping Strike. This build got drawback, cause it loses 2d6 Sneak Attack in the process. For added fluff of whatevs you can pick up Chameleon (Stealth Archtype) and Tiefling (Darkness) so he can use Hide in Plain Sight with ridiculous amounts of Stealth.

Well everything you want is in Magus. Only reason why you don't want to play magus is cause of his spell list ? Spell Blending lets you add spell. You are starting at 7th, that means you can choose Spell Blending already twice and choose to add at 3rd level one 1st level spell (better take something else) or at 6th level 2 spells of 1st level, or one of 2nd, (still not advised) adding some spells you want that Magus don't have to his spell list. You can than do this again on 9th (This time its ok, with two 2nd level spells) and then at 12th (2x 3rd level spells), etc. Practically in your spell list you can have what ever you desire from wiz/sorc list, it just costs extra. Dunno whats not to like, in my gaming group, Magus, Inquisitor and Summoner are trio of brokenness.

My Evilnessness :)

Character if anyones interested - http://www.dndsheets.net/view.php?id=34518

Edit: And fact that Tiefling in Celestial Armor looks silly.

We are 12th, i could spare for celestial armor tho, 22k for 9 AC and max dex of 8, pretty good deal, not so with BoA, even 25k one is only +5. Now i am really starting to regret picking up Tiefling =/

@Throkull that is not exactly true, Celestial Armor got Max Dex of 8 and AC of 6 (not counting +3 ench bonus), that is not counting Mithral, then a lot more armors got combined AC and Dex of over 10.

@blackbloodtroll i figure armored kilt is not made of metal, so it can't be really made of mithral neither :(

@Jak while they are available, they are too expensive at the moment and will probably continue to be expensive throughout the game. To just get back to AC i got now (27) i would need to pay 16k (BoA +4) for that money, i can upgrade my Chainshirt and get even higher AC.

Well thank you guys for replying :)

Wait, so if only Core is allowed, and Shadow Dancer is in core, what seems to be a problem for Rogue ? He can just Hide in Plain Sight, while fighter is running away around arena from rogue's shadow buddy, cause no magical weapons, means shadow is untouchable, but if we are gonna cheat a bit less, there Rogue got his flanking buddy, and they can decimate Fighter in mostly 2 full attacks duo to Strength damage. Also, its said, no magic items, not, no magical abilities, so Rogue can fetch himself Vanish, or whatever he pleases from level 1 spells.

Without Shadow Dancer, and CRB only, Fighter got such a huge advantage that its not even funny. If DM was to allow all the books, Fighter would be doomed no questions asked.

My Tiefling Rogue just hit level 12, and my Dex ended up being 24(it will end on at least 26, if not 28), soooo, with me being Tiefling i can't really go get myself a suit of Celestial Armor and be done with it, also Mithral Chainshirt got max dex of +6 and Padded Armor while having Max Dex of 8, is useless cause it got +1 AC bonus. So help please ? Is there any armor i can get beyond ones mentioned here that would serve me better than Mithral Chainshirt ?

First of all thanks for replying :)

I got boots - Slippers of Spider Climbing, i forgot to mention them, as my char sheet is not with me, but with other player (all of our sheets are either with him or DM so that no one forget their sheet cause it happened on more then one occasion.)

I was using consumables heavily till now, still have some left over.
I got some scrolls of magic missile Cl 3 for when enemies are in flight, etc, simply cause its cheaper then 750 per pot of fly and i plan on getting winged boots on first occasion that is given to me. Also i got a wand of False Life with 7 or 8 charges left and my whole party heavily used Antitoxins after we got almost wiped by Drow poison on lower lvls :)

I got 10k gold left, since 6k of 16k i spent on my 2nd shortsword's Agile enchantment.

As for boosting Dex even further, its not possible, to upgrade my +2 Con & Dex to Con +2 & Dex +4 belt i need 15k by my GM's rules or 18k by RAW.

As for going hard into wands, scrolls, etc. i am not really into it that much as my GM counts it against wealth by level, not just consumables, but raise dead too.

With all of that said, this is what i figured so far:

Agile Shortsword – 6k
Antitoxins x10 – 500gp
Magic Missile CL 3 x2 - 150 gp
Cloak of Res +2 to +3 – 4k
Light Fortification to my +1 Mithral Shirt – 3k

For a total of 13,650 gp out of my a bit over 16k gold. which leaves me with like 2,5k gold more to go

I am playing a rogue in Second Darkness and we are about to step into 4th chapter and drow elven city from what it seems. Anyhow after not selling items for a while we ended up with 16k loot, 6k is going for my 2nd +1 Agile Shortsword, which leaves me with 10k of indecision's ... and i am wondering am i missing something fairly important.

Tiefling Rogue 9 Chameleon Archtype

Str 10
Dex 21
Con 16
Int 12
Wis 10
Cha 10

Items of concern:
2x +1 Agile Shortsword's
Belt of Con and Dex +2
Mithral Chainshirt +1
Ring of Prot. +1
Amulet of Nat Armor +1
Cloak of Res +2
Hat of Disguise

Now with left over 10k i could upgrade Cloak of Res +3 and be left with 6k to upgrade my armor with Shadow and Light Fortification, or some other combo, but in all of my madness of searching for best way to spend my shinnies i am afraid that i missed something obvious. Or ... i could just get Another +1 special ability on the weapon.

So any thoughts ?

Thanks in advance, Zodd

Thanks for replying first of all!

One thing i forgot to mention is that non core feats and spells are presumed to be banned until proven otherwise. DM is paranoid of overpowering party.

There is been a slight overhaul - changing race from Half Orc to Gnome for story flavor and well ... out right power, with +2 cha, +2 con, +1 DC on illusion spells which will be my main focus, but that does not mean i will forfeit powerful spells like enervation, tentacles, haste, etc.

So my stats will look something like this:
Str 8 (0pt,-2 race)
Dex 14(5pt)
Con 12(0 pt,+2 race)
Wis 10 (0 pts)
Int 10 (0 pts)
Cha 18 (10 pts, +2 race)
As for feat progression, i thought something like this would be ok:

1) Boon Companion
3) Spell Focus/Toughness
5) Toughness/Greater Spell Focus
7) Improved Initiative (Bloodline), Focused Spell (If DM allows it, Precise Shot if not)
9) Greater Spell Focus/Spell Penetration
11)Selective Spell (If DM allows it, Spell Penetration if he does not allow it)
13)Quicken Spell (Bloodline), Greater Spell Penetration/
15) Greater Spell Penetration.

As you can see, many of metamagic feats depend upon good grace of my DM and i doubt he will allow Spell Perfection, simply cause of feats power on any one single spell.

As for BOOMSTICK spells, i was thinking of limiting myself to magic missile and scorching ray later on, but its debatable and depends on how rest of the party does.

So any thoughts ?

Hey to all, its been a while since i emerged myself into waters of spell casting and i was called upon to play a full spell caster in Kingmaker that a good friend of mine will DM.

After going with him through some of the ideas i had about character we settled on sorcerer with a Sylvan bloodline and my trusted animal companion will be wolf.

Now i came here to ask advice on math behind a character, or better speaking to make it not suck so much.

I know Boon Companion, Improved Initiative, Spell Penetrations and Spell Focus's will be taken as feats, but nothing more specific then that. O yea, i should put Toughness somewhere in there as well right ?

Anyway, a rough sketch of what i thought should work for now is:

Half-Orc Sylvan Sorcerer

Point Buy: 15

Str 8 (-2 pt)
Dex 14 (5 pts)
Con 12 (2 pts)
Wis 10 (0 pts)
Int 10 (0 pts)
Cha 18 (10 pt + 2 race floating ability)

Rest of the party will (at least for now) consist of Ranger without animal companion, Bard, and Druid /w animal companion. Druid is the off shot player and always have funky ideas so if possible i would like my char not to be too depended on his spells.

I dunno how to prioritize feats that i should take. On one hand i want to take Boon Companion at lvl 1 so it never lags behind, on other i want to take Improved Initiative so i always play first and then Toughness, followed by "specing" in some schools with Spell Focus, but it just doesn't seem like i have enough feats for everything.

So what ya all think ?

Thanks in advance,

Its not for Rogue to get, but for a Fighter - if he is willing. Whatever route Rogue goes, he will find himself lacking feats, so something like Shatter Defense is out of his reach anyway.

And IN archery type build, you've got even more options.

Bow - for bow to be used to its maximum effect, you need Shatter Defense fighter and/or max'd UMD for Greater Invis wand (but you can't do that from the get go). Many attacks, but harder to pull it off until mid levels. You could have some Str but not needed.

Crossbow - feat intensive if you want to pull off many attacks per round. You need same things you need for a bow if you are going for more attacks per round(invisibility, Shatter Defense, etc.). Do note that in my gaming group you cannot stealth while reloading, dunno is that by rules or not but that means that you need Rapid Reload before you are able to stealth and shoot every round. Greatest choice if you want to pull off Sneak Attack with Stealth, limiting yourself to 1 attack per round - Vital Strike tree.

Thrown weapons - now this one stacks with melee pretty nicely and it got potential for most attacks per round. Quick Draw is a must, TWF is a must and only thing you will need that won't be able to be used in melee is Rapid Shot. Now drawback is that you do get most attacks per round, BUT at -4 (-2 TWF, -2 Rapid Shot). Other drawback is that usual thrown weapons got range of 10 feet, and some (like shurikens) are counted as ammunition.

To be able to make Sneak Attacks with ranged weapons at low levels in most situations is hard, so its best that you are well versed in melee as well, if you go with Thrown Weapons, that is a possibility.

My group for RoTR consists currently of cleric of Sarenrae, Oracle of Life, Four Wind Monk, Alchemist and a Two Handed Fighter. We are currently nearing the end of the 5th chapter and i have to say that lack of primary arcane caster is starting to show itself greatly as even with 2 diviners "spec'd" out for healing they find themselves getting almost TPK'd if not in every encounter than in every few encounters, cause there is no one that can stop monsters from just unleashing their full power onto them.

So not wanting to sound unreasonable but Wizard and Cleric is a must for this campaign otherwise honestly there is no way of surviving to get to 3rd chapter.

To start off, you missed sub-forum, advice was better place :)

As for qualifying, yes, Channel is Channel, Bonded Mount ain't Animal Companion (per se) so it needed clarification.

Okay, now onto crunchy part. May i ask why fighter 2 ? Any specific purpose like 2 extra feats or just for higher BAB ? If its all about BAB i would reconsider getting paladin 2 instead of fighter 2 cause of Cha to all saves and Cha is your spellcasting stat as well.

Also some stuff about what you plan to use as a weapon or do you plan to use whatever you can find, race, etc. ... any more info beyond i want to be really good at smashing faces and buffing myself could be useful.

For now, i would recommend getting the usual Weapon Focus, Power Attack, Toughness, if you are gonna go broad and sword consider getting light spiked shield (counts as light martial weapon) and going TWF route (all through do note its treacherous road and will eat up your feats faster than you can say chihuahua). As for revelations Channel and Combat Healer pretty much eat up all your revelations, if you are not going TWF route i would say grab extra revelation and pick up Lifesense.

Also whats your curse ? Cause you are kinda shooting yourself in the leg here with only 4 levels of Oracle.

Eum ... why is it popular belief that Words of Power don't work with metamagic feats ? Cause in feat section of Words of Power it clearly says it does, that leads one to believe that it also works with metamagic rods.

Anyway without full Words of Power in front of me i can only say that barriers are a no no, cause there is no Wall in target words, meaning each barrier needs to start from the caster and go in a line (note that its a straight line, otherwise it would say 10 by 10 feet per level or something among those lines).

Next thing i can see totally underwhelmed or overpowered with Words of Power are buffs ala Haste (speed increase, attack bonus increase and extra attack need to be "implemented" for this) cause it would be possible to do lets say ... Haste with bonus damage (if there is a word for bonus on attacks there should be one for damage as well), bigger than +1 bonus on attack and deflection bonus to AC. Lets assume that would be around 6th level spell, there is no party buff that potent on that level nor any other and being able to buff up whole party with everything they need in one round is very good, its actually that good that it breaks action economy to pieces.

If my life depended on it ?

Summoner, Druid, Ranger Beast Master, Cleric of Erastil (maybe i miss spelled the name of the god, its 5:30 am here)

You can see a pattern here.

Practically it goes like this, 3 AC's and an Eidolon.

Summoner - Eidolon plus arcane buffs for all involved.
Druid - combat oriented with divine buffs and no save battlefield control like walls, etc. and Animal Companion plus some nice summoning.
Ranger Beast Master - 1 level into 1 animal companion for "scouting" to kill off traps and such, Boon Companion and all other levels into another animal companion for combat or what have you - maybe even Roc if campaign is anything near as open/nature as Kingmaker, of course archer route.
Cleric of Erastil - Animal and Community Domains. Again Boon Companion for Animal Companion and Community is there so whole party (including Animal Companions if i am not wrong) can use clerics saves instead of their own.

That or you could skip Ranger and hope that druid summons at right time to set off traps and get Bard instead for some song and extra buffs, again archer route.

Bob_Loblaw wrote:

The rogue can choose from the following talents that give him a bonus to hit:

Combat Trick
Finesse Rogue
Major Magic (True strike is only one option)
Surprise Attack

The following talents give bonuses to damage:

Bleeding Attack
Major Magic (Enlarge Person is an option)
Surprise Attack
Assault Leader
Lasting Poison
Powerful Sneak
Snap Shot
Sniper’s Eye
Deadly Cocktail
Deadly Sneak
Hunter’s Surprise

Then there are the archetypes that provide some of their own bonuses like the sniper and thug.

Again, i was talking about attack bonus, not damage. No infinite damage in the world will save you if you got -20 attack.

Combat Trick - Weapon Focus, anyone and everyone will pick that up, rogue got it as a choice from class which is a bonus, but than again, he doesn't get incorporated TWF tree into his class like Ranger or Monk does (won't mention fighter cause he can pull pretty much anything off). So it boils down to 1 feat as a class ability versus 3 feats as a class ability.

Finesse Rogue - Weapon Finesse, this is so laughable that tear is going down my cheek. Ranger doesn't need dex for his TWF, neither does Monk, fighter does, but i am pretty sure Fighter can pull off to pay 1 feat for it. Point buy doesn't allow you to have both high strength, high dex and survive first encounter without being mentally challenged - and Rogue is skill monkey, weak will save and sometimes mouth of the party.

Major Magic (True Strike) - works against action economy and even if you were ready to give up one round to cast True Strike it gives you +20 on one attack, nothing to write home about, more like to be ashamed.

So to sum it up, yea, rogue got the short end of the stick in PF. He can brag about damage he can dish out ... but he can pretty much only dish it out versus a plank. And please, if any class needs to depend on rest of the party to be effective at what its supposed to do, than there is a problem somewhere in there. Imagine a Cleric needing help with Healing or Wizard needing help with battlefield control you would laugh at them. I laugh at Rogue.

LilithsThrall wrote:
Yes, he does. The Rogue gets his bonuses to hit from attacks which bypass Dex. The class is really good at sneaking around, tumbling into flank, etc.

Please... anyone can move into flank. Inquisitor is even better, just grab that Travel Domain. Monk got increased speed and he also got acrobatics, so he is even better at it than Rogue. Ranger got Animal Companion so he doesn't even have to move into flanking, his animal companion does it for him, nor does he depend on rest of his party on it. Lets not begin that Rogue without flank or disabled enemy does peanut for damage.

What i was aiming for is that he doesn't have any class abilities that boost his to hit AND stack with feats (Rage, Smite, Favored Enemy, Full BaB on full attack). So woop! He gets Combat Trick, so awesome, cause no other martial character won't pick Weapon Focus ... yea right ...

My problem with Rogue is that unlike almost all other martial or semi martial chars he doesn't get bonuses to attack. Ranger gets attack and damage bonus for favored enemies next to full bab. Paladin gets Cha to attack when he pops Smite Evil next to full bab. Barbarian gets +2 from rage (later more) and got full bab. Inquisitor got 6th level spells and judgments to offset his 3/4 BAB, which comes down to a lot even at first level he can net +4 to attack. Than we got rogue, who next to having 0 static damage gain (so no need for high crit) is in need of heavy feat tax for TWF, which isn't even that great anymore without buffing from party members.

So in my honest opinion Monk is better than rogue simply cause he gets TWF chain tree for free and counting as full BAB class for it. Scaling damage thats not situational at all and at least there is no illusion about him being good so people ain't walking into a trap.

Garreth Baldwin wrote:
Where is this feat from? I thought I saw it at some point but could never find it again.

Seekers of Secrets

I found it at:

Ender_rpm wrote:
Zoddy wrote:
I would consider getting Animal Domain and Boon Companion feat....
Random question: Will this grant you the companion from 1st level? Or just give you the full strength critter @ 4th?

Full strength critter at 4th

I would consider getting Animal Domain and Boon Companion feat. All through you won't see much combat yourself, that doesn't mean you shouldn't buff up your animal companion via Share Spells with Divine Power, Righteous Might (Cause you don't get Animal Growth).

Again, if you don't plan on getting into combat yourself, Growth is more or less useless (its not a spell, so Share Spell doesn't work), i would go with Community myself cause you got strong Will and Fort and all of your party members lack in one or both of those saves.

Now for the rest, Selective Channel is a no brainer, so is Extra Channel, for Kingmaker i wouldn't advise getting Heavy Armor Proficiency, but thats just me. You will find soon enough that beyond crafting and channeling feats there ain't much support for a non combat clerics.

From my point of view no sane parents/family wants their children to be an adventurer, so my guess is there is no stories, rhymes whatever about how to defeat a monster. On other hand there are rhymes about diseases, crop not growing, etc that are helpful in day to day common life as are there scary stories of bunch of monsters eating children that do not behave, listen to their parents or whatever that kid did wrong today.

Eum ... just something that it might of slipped through the cracks ... he uses his dex with to hit, not strength. Just mentioning this cause you said Bull's Strength is giving him +2 to hit and +2 to damage.

Now on the other hand it is possible to do 200 damage on 10th level with a bow, without crit occurring but its highly unlikely ...
Quicken is out the window except if he as someone mentioned above ain't quickening dancing light. So all Buffs available to party of that level that can benefit an AA are: Haste; Inspire Courage; Good Hope;; Gravity Bow; Weapon of Awe; Bull's Strength. I will go with overpowered stats,so i will take Str of 24 (20 base, 24 with bull's str) to hit ain't important cause OP is not concerned with hitting (all through if he didn't hit on all of his attacks it would be nice to know). I will also go with most powerful combo for this specific exercise in pure damage which is fighter 6/wizard 1/AA3 (again someone already stated that he ain't able to quicken anything but dancing lights, so 1 level of wizard is enough).

Now, No. of attacks: 2 from BaB, 1 from Haste, 1 from Rapid Shot, Multishot

Damage: +2 Inspire Courage, +2 Good Hope, +7 Strength (With Bull Str), +2 Weapon of Awe, +2 Weapon Spec, +3 Weapon Training (with dueling gloves), +6 Deadeye, +3 weapon ench for a grand total of +27 on damage

So lets see can this surpass 200 damage, all through answer should be obvious by now :P

Full round of attacking(4 attacks +Manyshot): 135 (static damage from all 4 attacks + Manyshot) +55 (3,5 is average of d6, average of 3d6 is 10.5, i rounded it up to 11) for a grand total of 190. If he was fighting something vulnerable to cold would bump damage to 195 (it adds 1,5 on top of 11 meaning 12)

Meaning he could get to 200 mark and surpass it if he had all of this buffs and more on himself OR if he rolled above average on 15d6's with all of this buffs on himself.

Maybe i missed some buffs, but he probably doesn't even have this much on.

Good Hope and Inspire Courage both run off morale bonus so they do not stack (to my knowledge).

Why would you get True Strike ? Its like shotting yourself in a knee cap. You spend a standard action so your first attack next turn got 5% miss chance ? (5% because on 1 you still fail).

As for defending i never got to using it really, i popped it out there, but AC was never targeted with my group, only Touch AC rest were spams with AoE's cause monk fell to full attack and cone of cold (somewhere around 200 damage with 1 crit), he didn't survive cause they were metagaming BBEG's position (they had a map of a dungeon) so they went in unprepared and unbuffed.

Do note that you turn Defending on/off each round, he simply didn't use it to begin with, won initiative Haste Assaulted, Greater Invis'd himself stealhed with +24 near the monk and on next round quickened chain lighting followed by full attack and cone of cold dropped the monk and pretty much more than halved everyone else, but than Oracle of Life with +11 on init played (Don't ask) popping channel and swift healing himself, than cleric played (don't ask again) he throwed heal on Alchmist, Than Alchemist bomb'd s#&& out of him and Fighter went in hitting a bit, but he missed duo to miss chance.

As for damage, its only +13 duo to Strength, other +14 are Arcane Strike (+3), Weapon Spec (+2), Weapon (+3), Power Attack (+6)

As for switching Bull's Strength with Cat's Grace, on that level you will do same thing as me, as you will have for a +6 str boost but won't have enough for +6 dex boost, after all Magus prepares spells :P

Okay being how OP is talking about TWFing with a big shield, big shield is heavy shield (can't bash with tower shield) and heavy shield is one handed weapon, which means you can TWF with a heavy shield and one handed weapon but it becomes a -4 penalty. Light shield is considered a light weapon, but you can't cast spells with your shield hand (except if you don't house rule it otherwise), only buckler allows you to cast spells while having it equipped and you can't bash with it, so buckler is out through the window.

Your only option with a big shield meaning heavy shield is heavy shield + shortsword (and shortsword will be used in off hand, but oh well, you got your concept intact). Also you probably figured this one out as it wasn't mentioned but i will note it for others: Always move around with your sword sheathed, so on first rounds of combat you can cast spells without losing actions, when you decide to move into combat, cast a spell, move, and as a move like action draw your shortsword.

Now, we are talking TWF here, so bladethirst is especially handy cause he doesn't need to split gold between two weapons and can get +6 on all physical stats +6 on cha and wis (and int if he is skill monkey) without gimping either of his weapons, so it stays as an viable option.

Now if you want to stick with TWF and change your concept a bit i seriously advise you to go with two short swords.

If you are getting 1 level of fighter, than get a 2nd level of fighter cause of another extra feat, if you are Weapon Master you will want 3rd as well and than its 1 level apart from weapon spec, your choice but if i was in your shoes i would dip into fighter for 4 levels and straight up fighter as well. Why ? Beyond weapon spec it gives you weapon training 1 - with that than grab gloves of dueling to pump that weapon training to WT 3. so in 4 levels of fighter you get 2 free feats (next to WS), +3 to attack and +5 to damage (not counting 2 BAB, just WT1).

Fighter 4/AD 16
- +4 attack over straight AD (1 fighter, 1 from WP, 2 from gloves)[AD gives 3, fighter 4]
- +4 damage (2 WS, 1 WT, 2 gloves)[Loses 1 on Arcane Strike]
- higher HD
- armor training 1 (light/medium/heavy)
- Bravery 1 (meh)
- 2 extra feats (next to Weapon Spec)

-Loses +1 on Bladethirst (Max +4)
-Loses Mass Bladethirst
-Loses Greater Penetrating Strike
-Loses spell slots and spells known but not spell levels
-Inspire Courage maxed at +3 (instead of +4)

I think that covers it.

PS. Is adventure going to 20th level or what ? It would be nice to know our limits instead of assuming its 20th level.

Thanks for the link.

As for combat expertise, dump it, you got better things to go than wasting attack bonuses for AC

Magus that almost TPKd my group a while ago. There are some crappy decisions in there, but who knows it could be useful to you.


Note: I did 20 Point Buy for him, as he was BBEG and my group rolled for stats, on other hand i didn't put extra stats from him getting class levels as kind of a balance for using Point Buy.

Male Stone Giant Magus level 14

AC 31; Touch 16 (10 base, 4 dex, 9 armor, 2 deflection, +2 natural, +4 weapon)
Init +8
Defenses: Resist Energy: 30 sonic; 30 fire; DR 10/Adamantine (150 max)
HP: 164

Str 34 (Base 27, +1 level, +6 ench)
Dex 18 (-2 size; +4 ench (cat's grace))
Con 20 (+1 level)
Wis 13
Int 16 (+1 level)
Cha 12

BAB: 11/6/1
Saves 16/10/12

Feats (7 lvl + 1 race + +2 class): Combat Casting(1); Toughness(1); Weapon Focus (Scimitar)(3),Arcane Strike(5), Step Up(5), Power Attack (7), Critical Focus(9) Weapon Spec (Scimitar) (11), Dodge(11),Disruptive (13), Improved Initiative (15)

Note: I used somewhat retarded Arcana (like Hasted Assault, Reflection, etc) cause i didn't want to make him all powerful and cause it was a 1 combat burst guy.

Class Abilities: Spellstrike; Greater Spell Combat; Magus Arcana (Familiar, Empower Spell,Hasted Assault, Maximized Magic, Reflection);Arcane Weapon(+4); Medium Armor; Fighter Training; Heavy Armor; Counterstrike;

Gear: +3 keen unholy flaming defending spell storing Scimitar (+1 defending spell storing, 18300) (Arcane Weapon, + Magic Weapon Greater);
+3 Mithral Breastplate (12,150); Belt of Str +6 (36k), stoneskin diamonds. Cloak of Resistance +2(4k),
ring of protection +2(8k) amulet of natural armor +2(8k)

Attacks: +24/+24/+19/+14 (1d8 +27 +2d6 unholy +1d6 flame /15-20x2)

Spells (0-5; 1st-6; 2nd-6; 3rd-6; 4th-4; 5th-4; 6th-2)

6th(19) - Chain Lighting(15d6, 1 object/creature per lvl, ref half); True Sight
5th(18) - Cone of Coldx2(15d6, ref half, 60 foot burst); Overland Flight; Telekinesis;
4th(17) - Black Tentacles(20 ft spread, CMB 21; Stoneskin; Invisibility, Greater;Solid Fog;
3rd(16) - Displacment; ; Magic Weapon, Greater; Phantom Steed; Wind wall; Dispel Magic;
2nd(15) - Glitterdust; Mirror Image(1d4+5); Cat's Grace; Scorching Ray(3 ray-a) x3;
1st(14) - Feather Fall; Magic Missile(5d4+5) x2; Shocking Grasp(5d6); Unseen Servant;Expeditius Retreat

I am pretty sure that there are few mistakes cause i had to lower him on a spot from level 16 to level 14 on that session, so maybe i f%~%ed up somewhere, if i did i apologize in advance.

Hum ... upon checking srd20pf you are right, all through when i was checking stat block at my friends house in Adventurers Armory it says 19-20/x3 ... i am pretty sure of it ...

As for a monk if you've got APG, monk of the four winds can dish out some pretty heavy smacking with elemental fists and importance of Wis lowers duo to him losing Stunning Fist. Not saying Monk trumps Summoner, but putting it our there, that with Shield Other and buffs from both you and Oracle he can be a heavy hitter and have a staying power.

Edit: Just called my friend, yup in the book says 19-20/x3 ...

YuenglingDragon wrote:

Sorry for the double post.

Zoddy, thinking about what you said about not bothering to sacrifice spells for something I can do with gold, doesn't that naturally conclude that all the "swap spell for bonus x" Arcana aren't worth it? So what's left for level 9, Maneuver Mastery and Familiar, right? Lacking the room for feats for combat maneuvers, I guess I ought to get a Familiar at lvl9. Not much of a bonus there though. It might be handy for a Wizard to be able to use the familiar for touch spells but not really a Magus. The bonus to Bluff from the Viper would be good for the character, though and I suppose it can be a handy scout.

Yup, not only are they not worth special abilities but they are actually a trap as well, Look at your spell progression, than a piece of info you probably now, highest possible stat with base races is 36 (18 base +2 race +5 level +5 tome +6 enchantment) that nets you 4/3/3/3/3/2 extra spells. That makes it 9/8/8/8/8/7 at 20th level. Now it sounds like GOD THATS A LOT OF SPELLS, than you we come to crunchy part, first you won't have 36 int, 2nd what would you rather do ? Waste a 2nd-3rd-any level spell slot slot to haste just yourself as a swift action (meaning no quicken that round) OR spend 12k on boots of haste, that do not eat up your spells and are a free action to activate ? Of course best choice is just to cast that g!% d+~n haste, but back to the "spell slot for X bonus" you also got Spell Combat, and yea, while on level 20 with 36 int you can live through 3-4 combats a day without running out of spells (probably) even with "spell for X bonus" realistically you won't be able to keep up 2 combats on some normal pre-20 level spamming Spell Combat and things like Hasted Assault.

Personally ? I would take familiar for ref or fort save, it saves up a possible feat or it gives you a free feat, depends how you look at it :P

As for Aldori vs Scimitar i had the right stats :) 18-20/x2 is same as 19-20/x3 statistically, cause scimitar got higher chance less damage. For example: we will take that both weapons deal 2 damage and that with both weapons two attacks are made. Being how scimitar got higher double threat range if we are to presume that Aldori got crit on 1 hit, than scimitar got crit on both. So simple math
Scimitar(2 crits): 2x2 +2x2 =8
Aldori(1 crit, 1 hit): 2x3 +2=8

Formula doesn't break apart even on more attacks, for example 9, same as above 2 crits for scimitar, 1 crit for Aldori
Scimitar(2 crits, 7 attacks) 8 (2 crits) + 14 (7 attacks) = 22
Aldori (1 crit, 8 attacks) 6 (1 crit) + 16(8 attacks) = 22

Again i didn't take into account damage difference between the two, cause from the start i was talking about crit, not their base damage, and crit wise they are same, its just what you prefer :)

It is weak and its not weak at the same time ...

Well it can be made to work - but solo bard wins hands down in support part for first 15 levels, Battle Herald simply can't compete.

First some of the pro's you can wear mithral breastplate without needing to waste a feat, you've got full BAB for hitting things and your bonus progresses faster (6th, 9th,12th, 15th) compared to bards (5th, 11th, 17th) (note i am talking about character levels and not counting 1st level presuming its bard, even if its 2nd it doesn't change anything really) and it tops at +5(+6 if you go with bard 5/cavalier 1, ergo you get 1 level later into BaH or however you want it) instead of bards usual +4.

Now cons Commands are way more limited compared to inspire courage, first 60 feet around you, inspire courage doesn't have that limit, 2nd you are starting with 1 command, commands themselves are more limiting, some not by much, some by a lot, but are still limited to specific positioning (pincer maneuver) or by certain actions (Call to Charge). I wouldn't do justice to Battle Herald if i wasn't to mention that each command gives something else, not necessarily bonus on attacks, saves, etc so in that way its more versatile. I also wouldn't do justice to Bard if i wasn't to say that as a Battle Herald you don't progress with casting. Also there Battle Herald got Banner which is kinda nice (kinda cause it works only on charges) and stacks with Inspire Command (which is actually competence bonus).

So it comes down to personal opinion of which is better:
Inspire Courage plus spellcasting vs Inspired Command + Commands (i won't count in rest of bard's special abilities and rest of his bardic performances same as i won't count Banner and so on in for BaH)

Biggest note ever - if you are okay with sucking (personal thinking) for first 15 levels of campaign or you are starting campaign as a high level, BaH wins hands down and laughs at bard with its capstone ability being able to maintain Inspire Courage and Inspire Command at the same time, best of all is that they stack brining to table wooping +10 or +12 (except with some commands that stick with morale bonus).

Now personally i find straight up bard stronger cause he is more straight forward and there is no need for pulling your hair out when you don't have a command you need (all through i can see Call for Charge and Pincer Maneuver being only ones you will need) as well as spells covering and surpassing versatility of Commands. Also one thing i will never personally forgive BaH is that his mount doesn't progress, so if you decide to use your mount you either a) need to feed him so many Boon Companion feats that its silly(2-3 at least to be more precise) or b) need to prepare yourself mentally that he is gonna die from every AoE thrown in your direction.

Well Hasted Assault is a trap ... not only can you cast haste, but there is already Boots of Speed for ~12k, rule of thumb i like to keep whenever is possible is to never waste class abilities/feats on something an item can do.
As for scimitar vs Aldori Dueling Sword, it comes down to same crit threat wise (if we are talking statistics) so only thing in question is flavor you want you char to have.

Glutton wrote:
Simple guide to being a rogue: don't be a rogue

Simple guide for helping: don't tell people what they want and don't want to be *smile*

As for guides, most (if any) haven't been updated with APG, so while that guide is good its probably best to pose your "problems" and questions here concerning your character.

As i thought, its absolutely useless till level 10 when you can pop both up ...

Thanks for the fast reply, but i am still wandering how does the mechanics work, cause otherwise normal bard is much better, no limited Inspire Courage, still got spells, but lacking in BAB compared to the Battle Herald.

Okay, perhaps one part (bigger part) of this post is better suited in Rules question.

But did i get it right or is Inspired Command a bit lacking in versatility compared to Inspired Courage ? As i read it in Inspired Command only Command's work its not Inspired Courage plus Command, or am i completely wrong ? Cause whats point of capstone ability than ?

Now for 2nd part, how would you go around making one for Kingmaker? Without spoilers i am concerned with following - i know its mostly outside, but is it charge viable ? If it isn't is it flying archery viable ? Meaning trees for concealment, etc.

Sorry to interpose, but where did you find a feat that allows you to dual wield wands ? Or is it one from 3.5?

Anyway, be sure to grab Precise Shot and Point Blank shot anyway on lower levels and use that bow until you get to 5th level (to meet prereq for Craft Wands). Some other combo's you can pull of with wands beyond damage are Enervation + Ray of enfeeblement, etc. very nice concept and very doable with craft wands. Also be sure to get Glove of Storing at one moment so you can cast your own spells without losing actions to store/retrieve wands :)

RuyanVe wrote:

Yeah, but then again wasn't there a discussion about the viability of Erastil being a patron deity for a druid considering his portfolio?

Don't get me wrong, I would let a player take Erastil as his patron deity any day and as a DM running Kingmaker I second Dire Mongoose's post.


Sorry for double post.

I would allow it with a druid no problem. In my mind i see Gozreh as someone who doesn't like civilization invading wilderness and try to keep nature clean off of cities etc. While Erastil tries to sync civilization with nature, not taking more than its needed, not hunting for sport but for survival, you get the picture.

Actually no :D Warden is made for Ranger, you need level 7 to qualify, but its doable by Ranger alone.

Nature's Warden is in APG

What you are forgetting is that nowadays more and more people play AP's unlike in the 2nd ed. That brings to the table AP's that are more difficult and no roleplaying in the world is gonna save you from that 15HD Zombie on 5th level. Sometimes in order for you to roleplay you need your character to stay alive first :P

Next to that, i am trying to fight for 4d6 drop lowest, stat by stat rolls with 1 stat switch.

Just to clarify my view of things first.
Stat boosting items are there for a reason, cause after a while you need something to penetrate that DR and custom made items need a lot of time to get (couple of months at least, its not like there is 15 high level wizards waiting to do all of items you desire and even than it can take a month or more for them to actually make an item) and stat boosters aren't really that custom compared to +1 keen flaming burst adamantine greataxe for example - and this weapon is even cheaper to get than a +6 stat, true not by much (35320 vs 36000) but in and of itself every armor and weapon are a lot more custom (size, specific enchantments, specific weapons, specific materials) than any wondrous item(yes even amulet of mighty fists) just cause 99% of wondrous items are premade without worries will someone like what they do, there ain't +4,1 bonus on stat or hand of glory showing middle finger (all through i think you can make it show a middle finger without crafting it like that, you just have to be extra careful while clenching other 4 fingers)

Again off topic, roleplay vs rollplay, D20 favors rollplay, just check for which one there is more options - items, spells, class abilities.

Just to clarify, i am not pro rollplay, just saying that the system is heavily favoring rollplay.

And if you wish to remove stat boosters AND IF your players agree with you, go right ahead. You don't need to compensate one g#$ d%%n thing, cause they don't exist for one reason or another and so enemies nor NPC's have access to them either, making PC's stronger compared to most enemies. Why ? Simply they got stat boosting spells and some of them would actually be viable and taken instead of laughed at (Mass stat boosting spells i am looking at you) while most enemies do not posses that ability.

Well as far as low magic goes, i am planning a post "apocalyptic" setting for my players if they fail in RoTR.

Practically, Golarion wise, Mana Waste expanded, so now there are more countries in which magic is a no no, so rifles, etc. are more common and not counted as exotic weapons. As for PC's, casters get 1/2 progression, so a level 20 Wizard/Sors/Cleric are only a level 10 caster level netting them 5th level spells, while Bard and all 6th spell level casters end up with 4th level spells, etc. There are only few true casters left around (4 of them) and they got much more productive things to do than create magic items for market. Mind you, there are still pockets where magic is at its fullest, but there are already a) BUNCH of magical monsters there b) its part of the community that over time become too paranoid to let anyone in. c) think something up.

As for crafting, my group always banned it cause it wrecks havoc on the system. As for low magic = crap on balance, it really doesn't upset the balance anymore than full casters do past level 15. As for monsters, well there are still spells like magic weapon greater, but it ends up on +2, so they can still pass through some DR, etc.

Last but not least, class abilities will be nerfed, but its on class by class basis, mostly in same way i nerfed spell progression.
Oh and yea, for this i will be giving my players 40 Point Buy.

Dunno if any of this is really helpful. You could also look at Iron Heroes, dunno how much work there will be converting classes to Pathfinder, but everything in there is MADE for extra low-magic setting.

Sorry for double post, but just to address the rest.

Carbon, it got to do with patience and concentration part. I am not saying that it got to do with concentration part, but patience he surely do. Move action to pull out a potion, standard action to gulp it down, full round action devoted to something as simple as drinking, i would say you need patience and clear head for that.

As for bard being mediocre 4th level man, he really isn't in right combination. Yes, you will need rest of the group to cooperate with you on what are they gonna play so you can see is it viable or not. For example party for our upcoming Kingmaker campaign will consist of a bard, paladin, arcane trickster and Druid with animal companion, if one of our friends decide to join us, he will probably be playing band-aid cleric cause he wanna try him out, so i am not even counting him buff wise.

May i ask how is it MAD ? He needs same physical abilities that Alchemist needs. As for concept, off the top of my head, think of it like mutagen "boost up", your temper gets really silly, for roleplaying sake's you could go as far as using it same way Frenzied Berserker used his Frenzy, when damage procs, etc.

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