If you think that's bad, Evil eye lasts for 1 round if you SAVE against it, and can be cackled each round to keep it going. It even goes to -4 at 8th level. -4 to all your rolls, no save.
Granted, if it weren't for hexes like these, the class would be terrible compared to the wizard, who can draw from every sorcerer/wizard spell in the future and from 3.5.
If slumber is becoming a problem, a quick fix is to allow the creature a new save every round. You can also add some minor henchmen who can go and kick the big bad to wake him up - the hex only works once per day.
Also, evil eye doesn't work as mentioned above: the penalty only applies to ONE type of roll at a time. It's still very useful, though, especially to nuke an opponent's saves to soften them up for Slumber or Agony.
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Slumber can only target each critter once each day.
Slumber can only target something within 30ft.
Slumber doesn't work on all manner of targets [elves, undead etc].
Slumber doesn't know what's happening behind the DM screen.
Slumber isn't your enemy, it's sometimes your players friend.
Slumber hate makes me... Zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz
I read it the same way.
The casting is a standard action, as an hex.
The effect is as the spell Sleep.
If slumber is becoming a problem, a quick fix is to allow the creature a new save every round. You can also add some minor henchmen who can go and kick the big bad to wake him up - the hex only works once per day.
Also, evil eye doesn't work as mentioned above: the penalty only applies to ONE type of roll at a time. It's still very useful, though, especially to nuke an opponent's saves to soften them up for Slumber or Agony.
Actually it's a -2 to your choice of Ability Checks, Attack Rolls, Skill rolls, Saves, or AC.
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I play a witch and the sleep hex isn't that broken.
As the book mentions it's a 1 per person/day ability.
Not to mention the Hex does nothing against, Vermin, Undead, Dragons, Elves, Half Elves, and anything else immune to enchantments or sleep effects.
Sorry for the double post but I seem to be having an issue for editing my first one.
Chris I wasn't trying to quote you, that was supposed to be for Calypsopoxta.
Ah yes, right you are about Evil Eye. Well, I suppose saving throws would be the primary use, but it's not as sick as I thought then.
The Hex entry Slumber specifically states it can effect a creature of any HD. No one was comparing a Witch to a Wizard, or why you would waste more than 2 turns/scrolls worth of money and/or exp to land bestow curse.
Witches and Wizards have their differing strong points, we're talking about one of the witches. On that note: Your big bad boss deserves to die if he's all alone and fails a crucial will save, slumber isn't the first and won't be the last save or die effect your players use. If slumber concerns you this much, watch out when your witch pulls out forced reincarnation.
More to the point, if you have ANY class that gets 9th level spells in your campaign, you'll have to work hard to guarantee an epic fight without hosing said casters. Be prepared to do it because the nail that sticks out gets the hammer, and these players need to learn how to play their role without ruining the game for everyone else.
http://paizo.com/paizo/messageboards/paizoPublishing/pathfinder/pathfinderR PG/advice/witchsSleepHexMakesItAllTooEasy
http://paizo.com/paizo/messageboards/paizoPublishing/pathfinder/pathfinderR PG/advice/amIBeingFair&page=1
Much has been said about this already. Seems to be too good in some campaigns, but not others. As it is APG material, I would suggest leaving it open to GM decision as to how to deal with it.
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Now they have that ability that allows a witch to affect two targets with a single hex. Split Hex I believe it is called.
As a DM be very aware of the Cackle. It works only within 30 feet and is a move action. Hexes that last one round last until the beginning of the witches turn. So they have to cackle immediately after they use the hex or cackle will not sustain the ability. That is a key element to be aware of when a witch sets up her cackle.
If the witch moves 30 feet and uses Evil Eye, she can't extend it with cackle. Her move action is moved up and the Evil Eye will end prior to her turn. If the witch uses Evil Eye and Cackles, then she can't move and is within 30 feet of the enemy. You can attack the witch.
How the witch moves and uses hexes is important. Make sure you keep track of it.
I really don't get the problem with evil eye and cackle. The theory of why its so strong seems to be the witch doing it over and over so a target now has -'s to a bunch of stuff and she keeps it going.
Is this really how its playing out in games or just theory based complaints? Because seriously if your which is standing within 30 feet of badies, not moving, and spamming evil eye/cackle how in the hell is she not dead? A low AC caster standing that close for a few rounds shouldn't be breathing.
Even going evil eye for - saves, cackle and then the next round trying to land something big is 2 rounds of being up close and should be risky.
Just wait till your players find out that they can supply all their familiars that can use wands (/umd) with Ill Omen wands.
So a single monster has to roll twice to save vs spellcaster (/hexes) abilities
While that can be a problem yes its not a witch problem. Wizards have been pulling this kind of thing for a long time.
RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
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And as DM if player let the familiar enter combat, I let combat enter the familiar AKA spell book...
As a player I never let my familiar any near the area of combats .
Funny story that.
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In the last session I played, I used the slumber hex to put a manticore out of action. On its action, the other manticore roared and woke it up. That was annoying. I then used the hex to slumber the other manticore as it flew above the group, but the fall to the ground woke it up as well. Still, it was a fun fight and we ultimately won with only the half-orc paladin taking any serious damage.
Now they have that ability that allows a witch to affect two targets with a single hex. Split Hex I believe it is called.
As a DM be very aware of the Cackle. It works only within 30 feet and is a move action. Hexes that last one round last until the beginning of the witches turn. So they have to cackle immediately after they use the hex or cackle will not sustain the ability. That is a key element to be aware of when a witch sets up her cackle.
If the witch moves 30 feet and uses Evil Eye, she can't extend it with cackle. Her move action is moved up and the Evil Eye will end prior to her turn. If the witch uses Evil Eye and Cackles, then she can't move and is within 30 feet of the enemy. You can attack the witch.
How the witch moves and uses hexes is important. Make sure you keep track of it.
That's what quickrunners shirts are for. One per day, if you have to move you can do that and still use cackle. But I must confess I carry my shirt for a while now and have never used it. Even is, last session I HAD to drop my misfortune because I had to move. I guess being a scarred witch doctor with not so high int is taking its toll on my memory.
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Slumber is not the witch's worst hex. It's good for putting down mooks so the rest of the party can focus on the BBEG. What really will make you curse the witch is Misfortune. Works on EVERYTHING, even if it's undead or construct or mindless. Highly effective nerf -- you have to reroll pretty much any d20 roll.
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I have been on the player side of nullifying large creature encounters with Sleep + Coup. My girlfriend and I build our characters around that whole combo, with her having a high DC with and I had a high strength fighter with a x4 crit weapon. The fort save
dc after the coup was enormous. Changing the encounter dynamic to many smaller creatures helps to limit it. I would hardly call it overpowered, since most encounters are not one single dude. The 30 foot limitation is pretty harsh, as it makes the witch in range of any move-attack and any spell.
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In the last session I played, I used the slumber hex to put a manticore out of action. On its action, the other manticore roared and woke it up. That was annoying. I then used the hex to slumber the other manticore as it flew above the group, but the fall to the ground woke it up as well. Still, it was a fun fight and we ultimately won with only the half-orc paladin taking any serious damage.
The Roar should NOT have woken it up. It does state specifically that noise does NOT wake them up. A sleeping character had to be woken by a standard action or take damage to wake them up.
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Players "I do the coup de grace, the owlbear is dead. Master! The experience!...who's next?"
Master "..."Something i have missed?
Master: "Swarm of a thousand bees attack you"
Players: "The witch use slumber"Master: "The swarm of 999 bees continue attacking.2
It is strong against single targets within 30'. Less so against anything attacking at range, with number on their side or resistant to sleep.
The main problem is that it is a "must have" hex for the witch. And then it become a "must use" hex.
If players are going against things with an INT of over six I have enemies that are awaking do non lethal damage to their sleeping buddy.
Gregory kicks Tim in the ribs. "Get up you lazy slob"
That sort of thing.
Slumber is very powerful. Another thing to remember is that in only lasts rounds per level so at low levels it only knowcks a monster out for a round or two.
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Now they have that ability that allows a witch to affect two targets with a single hex. Split Hex I believe it is called.
The Split Hex is not an ability but a feat. They have to take the feat in order to use it. It can not be used on Major or Grand hexes either. It also effects the first target and then second target with in 30' of the first target.
As a DM be very aware of the Cackle. It works only within 30 feet and is a move action. Hexes that last one round last until the beginning of the witches turn. So they have to cackle immediately after they use the hex or cackle will not sustain the ability. That is a key element to be aware of when a witch sets up her cackle.
If the witch moves 30 feet and uses Evil Eye, she can't extend it with cackle. Her move action is moved up and the Evil Eye will end prior to her turn. If the witch uses Evil Eye and Cackles, then she can't move and is within 30 feet of the enemy. You can attack the witch.
How the witch moves and uses hexes is important. Make sure you keep track of it.
A witch can use cackle and another hex in the same round if they choose to do so as long as they don't move. It takes a move action for the cackle and a standard action for the hex. If they move they can still use Cackle should they choose to do so but not another hex. So then they would use the Cackle as a Standard action.
You can still 5-foot step and cackle. The move or 5-foot step rule only refers to actual movement and not move equivalent actions and is a free action itself. So, you can sloth around but still somewhat mobile.
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And, until and unless it is changed, you can use a move and a standard action to extend your hexes by 2 rounds and then move and cast/use an hex.
A few posts suggest to use the fortune hex on your party members while in a secure location and then cackle both with your standard and move actions for an hour on more, so extending the fortune hex for the same length of time after you have stopped cackling (the first action maintain the hex for the next round, the other action add 1 round to the duration of the hex after you have stopped cackling).
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Hexes that last one round last until the beginning of the witches turn. So they have to cackle immediately after they use the hex or cackle will not sustain the ability. That is a key element to be aware of when a witch sets up her cackle.
AFAIK if you hex as the second "action" on your turn you can still cackle as the first action on your next turn to extend it as a full "round" has not yet happened.
Hexes that last one round last until the beginning of the witches turn. So they have to cackle immediately after they use the hex or cackle will not sustain the ability. That is a key element to be aware of when a witch sets up her cackle.AFAIK if you hex as the second "action" on your turn you can still cackle as the first action on your next turn to extend it as a full "round" has not yet happened.
I think Raith is correct in saying it doesn't work.
Things that last 1 round end just before the beginning of your next round. So Once you start your next round it's already over.
Master is failing at being an evil overlord. Stop throwing low will save creatures at the party. Master should:
1) Use constructs, plants, undead, elementals, Oozes, Vermin, Quite a few Outsider subtypes, an angry pack of carnivorous elves...ALL are immune to sleep.
2) Something with a high will save.
3) More smaller baddies rather than one big baddy.
TLDR: If you give the Witch exactly what they are good at stopping why are you expecting anything less than a easy encounter.
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Hexes that last one round last until the beginning of the witches turn. So they have to cackle immediately after they use the hex or cackle will not sustain the ability. That is a key element to be aware of when a witch sets up her cackle.AFAIK if you hex as the second "action" on your turn you can still cackle as the first action on your next turn to extend it as a full "round" has not yet happened.I think Raith is correct in saying it doesn't work.
Things that last 1 round end just before the beginning of your next round. So Once you start your next round it's already over.
Is this RAW or RAI? I see nothing indicating that this statement is more correct than mine, but my justification is not hard evidence either. Basically after looking over everything the only thing I found related to duration of effects and how it breaks up over time in a players turn is located with:
Start/Complete Full-Round Action
The "start full-round action" standard action lets you start undertaking a full-round action, which you can complete in the following round by using another standard action. You can't use this action to start or complete a full attack, charge, run, or withdraw.
Granted, this goes contrary to:
When the rules refer to a "full round", they usually mean a span of time from a particular initiative count in one round to the same initiative count in the next round.
But honestly, this seems to make Misfortune Hex a little bit too weak if you can't extend it in the next round with a cackle. There's too many opportunities for it to fall off anyways.
Anyways, how do you request a dev come in and weigh in on the subject?
Up to now I only found answers to this in other threads, given by other "normal" forum users. But one looks like a quote from a FAQ. I'll share this first and see if I can find on the FAQ pages later.
Q: If I cast a spell with a duration of one round, when does that spell end? (example: If I'm level 1 and I cast Vanish on my turn, when do I reappear?)
A: Immediately before my initiative on my next turn. Too late to benefit from the spell during my next action.
And while this is about cast spells I can't see a reason to handle hexes differently.
Master is failing at being an evil overlord. Stop throwing low will save creatures at the party. Master should:
1) Use constructs, plants, undead, elementals, Oozes, Vermin, Quite a few Outsider subtypes, an angry pack of carnivorous elves...ALL are immune to sleep.
2) Something with a high will save.
3) More smaller baddies rather than one big baddy.TLDR: If you give the Witch exactly what they are good at stopping why are you expecting anything less than a easy encounter.
The 1) can be a problem when you are running an AP (which quite a few of us are doing), and by the way which outsiders are immune to sleep?
The 2) doesn't really help if the witch is somewhat optimized unless you couple the high will save with a very high wisdom.The 3) is a solution, and an easier one to implement on APs than the 1).
1) Get a bbeg dude, and replace/add two feats: Improved will, and greater improved will?
2) Make it advanced, to make the fight last longer.
3) Get two bbeg dudes (or some animals/minions), and have them kick the hexed one awake.
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In Pathfinder (and every edition of the game that came before) Save or Die is a thing. If your encounter is ruined because your BBEG whiffed a save, it was not a good encounter.
That is all.
Just ran a dungeon crawl and the Slumber Hex really botched my game. A player used it completely legally and legitimately, and as a result one cool encounter after another was reduced to "I put him to sleep and the rogue kills him."
When I asked how many times a day he could uncork that thing - still feeling pretty cheerful about things, assuming he was making balanced choices about his spell economy - he said it was infinite-use.
I sort of choked. This thing, which works against creatures of any HD, is RIDICULOUS. Paizo should errata it down in power asap.
-Captain Marsh
I never had a real problem with it. If you put a single monster against most groups I have GM'd for it dies in 3 rounds or less anyway. Death by pouncing barbarian or full attacks from archers is still death.