One of the major problems with any class that tries to do multiple things well (esp both melee and casting) is the dreaded multiple attribute dependence. The way it's set up, I'm afraid the Magus will potentially have the worst MAD of any class yet. It doesn't just require multiple decent attributes, it requires that they be fairly high for him/her to be effective.
A Magus not only needs enough con to survive (and make up for a lower hit die than other melee), they need enough str to fight effectively (making up for a lower BAB than most other melees w/o the buffs to compensate).
However, more than any of the other hybrids, they're going to depend on their casting stat. A ranger is only going to need enough wis to cast spells. Same with an inquisitor, who has judgment. A bards wants charisma, but since most of their good spells and abilities are buffs, they won't need to pump it very high to get their full use out of their class abilities. A paladin wants decent charisma, but he/she won't be ruined by not capping it at a decent level. Monks use wisdom, but it stacks with dexterity for their armor class, so again, it doesn't need to be gigantic.
But a Magus is going to need high enough int to keep up their saving throw DCs (they have a variety of spells that allow saves) AND have enough spell slots to power their arcana.
One other poster has suggested Int to AC (which i don't care for, its kind of a monk thing), but I'm going to suggest something we don't see in D20: Let's let them add int mod to damage. Not only does this compensate for the damage lameness of using a 1-handed weapon, it allows them to focus on multiple stats (str and int) without having to fall too far behind in melee.
As far as "gish class MAD" goes, a few do fairly well. Both the duskblade and the psychic warrior have a secondary casting stat to maintain, and they pull it off superbly.
Today, looking at the spell list, I agree with you that the bare minimum of int16 just won't do... but that makes me question more what is happening with their spell list than the rest of the class.
The int bonus spells are not going to alleviate the arcana fuel problem at all, so that will not contribute to the attribute dependency. Either the fuel source changes or we abandon any hopes of building up most arcanas that consume spells.
For the class not to suffer from obscene attribute dependencies, it'll have to pick from str or int which should be focused. Since this is ultimate magic, and not ultimate fisticuffs, I'm assuming the goal is for the guy to focus on his int and exploit it. There are plenty suggestions of how to make int useful in melee out there.
Heh now there's an idea for an arcana
for 3+INT rounds per day treat your STR, DEX or CON as equal to your current INT score
at 7th level this improves now treat 2 of STR DEX and CON as equal to your current INT score for 3+INT rounds per day
at 14th level this improves again now treat all three STR DEX and CON as equal to your INT score for 3+INT rounds per day
these rounds do not need to be consecutive. bonus HP from an increased CON go away like the bonus HP a barbarian gets during a rage.
I really loved the fact that the Arcane Warrior in Dragon Age got to substitute his intelligence for his strength score. I wish to the gods I could figure out a way to balance that for the Magus.
Yes. I mean, TBH, I don't think that class went far enough doing gishy things (looks like Hawke will, however), but I think stat substitution or supplementation needs to be a core part of the class. Mind you, I think using int for both hit AND damage may go too far, which is why I only suggested one of the two.
One of the major problems with any class that tries to do multiple things well (esp both melee and casting) is the dreaded multiple attribute dependence. The way it's set up, I'm afraid the Magus will potentially have the worst MAD of any class yet. It doesn't just require multiple decent attributes, it requires that they be fairly high for him/her to be effective.
A Magus not only needs enough con to survive (and make up for a lower hit die than other melee), they need enough str to fight effectively (making up for a lower BAB than most other melees w/o the buffs to compensate).
However, more than any of the other hybrids, they're going to depend on their casting stat. A ranger is only going to need enough wis to cast spells. Same with an inquisitor, who has judgment. A bards wants charisma, but since most of their good spells and abilities are buffs, they won't need to pump it very high to get their full use out of their class abilities. A paladin wants decent charisma, but he/she won't be ruined by not capping it at a decent level. Monks use wisdom, but it stacks with dexterity for their armor class, so again, it doesn't need to be gigantic.
But a Magus is going to need high enough int to keep up their saving throw DCs (they have a variety of spells that allow saves) AND have enough spell slots to power their arcana.
One other poster has suggested Int to AC (which i don't care for, its kind of a monk thing), but I'm going to suggest something we don't see in D20: Let's let them add int mod to damage. Not only does this compensate for the damage lameness of using a 1-handed weapon, it allows them to focus on multiple stats (str and int) without having to fall too far behind in melee.
Watch Robert Downey Jr's Sherlock Holmes movie you see a very good argument for allowing Int mod as both AC and to hit. I love the Idea of an intelligent fighter type. Intelligence as a combat modifier is something that I don't think 3.0 3.5 or even Pathfinder has considered.
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As for both to hit and damage being too good, definitely if it is one ability. If split between two abilities at different levels it's not as bad provided it is instead of rather than in addition to other abilities at those levels.
This.
I think that would go a long way to resolving issues with the class. Use Int for hit bonus at level 1 and for damage at 8, maybe?
Questions to ask:
Does it help MAD? Yes, substantially. The Magus will go from arguably the most MAD class to only needing stats commensurate with...well the Monk sorta.
Does it make class features more appealing? Yes. I think I'd be much more comfortable using spell combat with the penalties go against what I will be able to make a pretty strong stat. Plus, the DC for spells would not be so abysmal, a problem I'm facing with my Inquisitor.
Does it make the class a target for dipping? Maybe. Wizards and alchemists might dip for that but I doubt it.
Watch Robert Downey Jr's Sherlock Holmes movie you see a very good argument for allowing Int mod as both AC and to hit. I love the Idea of an intelligent fighter type. Intelligence as a combat modifier is something that I don't think 3.0 3.5 or even Pathfinder has...
You will also have another thing to regret in your life. Two wasted hours...
You will also have another thing to regret in your life. Two wasted hours...
Watch Robert Downey Jr's Sherlock Holmes movie you see a very good argument for allowing Int mod as both AC and to hit. I love the Idea of an intelligent fighter type. Intelligence as a combat modifier is something that I don't think 3.0 3.5 or even Pathfinder has...
Really? I loved that movie.
I've been working with some buddies on a homebrew warrior-with-arcane-oomph and I started thinking about, "But what ability score do I want that ability to be based on...?"
And then I decided: none. (I'm talking about additional abilities--e.g., where something is normally "you can do this 3 times a day plus your charisma modifier" or whatever I just made it non-ability score dependent, e.g., "you can do this a number of times per day equal to one-third your character class levels"). A spell-warrior is going to need at least one good physical stat and a spellcasting stat, and that's MAD enough. IMO. How that character class will work, if it ever hits playtesting phase, is yet to be seen.
Don't forget that Int affects the Magus's concentration checks. Making Int add to hit/damage/AC/etc might work for one or two things, but Int already affects spell DCs, bonus spells, number of spells known (at first level, anyway), and level of spells castable. Some of those are not as important as other factors, but Int is already doing a lot.
I would like to see more to-hit stuff, personally, as that is where I feel the class is lacking. Better to-hit, and concentration checks. Aside from that, Int can do what it does.
I don't see the Magus suffering from MAD. They need Str and Int, but any spell-casting class is going to need 2-3 stats. Sorcerer need Cha and Str or Dex, some bloodlines really promote melee combat. Wizard needs Int and Con with their abysmal HD. Cleric and Druid both need their casting stat and physical stats. A Magus is actually a little easier to work around.
First, since a Magus is able to enchant their own weapon for free, you have significant gold to spend on other items. They receive a +10 item at level 20 for +5 cost, a savings of 150k. Or they pick up a mundane weapon and cash in on 50k for nothing. So you will certainly be able to afford Belts of +2 to multiple stats much sooner than the TWF ranger who has double cost on his weapons.
Second, a Magus can self-buff in combat. This goes a long way to making up a 12 Dex or Con. And, unlike a Wizard or Sorcerer, being melee focused allows him to get a better bang for his buck when casting Bull's Str or Bear's End. He doesn't need to waste standard actions in combat, or have every buff up before combat, or run over to the mage and cost the mage actions.
Third, he doesn't need Wis or Cha so you can take 7's in that class for the extra points if you really want to.
I don't find Magus to be overly MAD. Two primary stats, two secondary, two dump seems to be par for the course as far a MAD goes.
An extreme Int will do very little to help a Magus' Arcana problems, (I'd rather a new way to fuel them) and slow progression means a Magus' DCs will NEVER be up to snuff, no matter how much Int you get. Better to not rely on DCs than spend all your stat points and gp to improve Int only to still have crappy save DCs.
Looking over the Magus' spell list, most of the spells that allow saves (only about 35 or so) aren't that stellar to begin with. Also, the vast majority of Magus spells that allow saves have an effect on a successful save. The only otherwise worthwhile spell with no effect on a save is Slow.
The Magus does not need the Int of a full blown Wizard. As far as spell dcs go, ranged and touch attack roll spells don't allow saves, and self-buff spells don't need them. and in the upper levels a base +4 to the DC isn't going to be that much more than a base +3.
Touch Attack spells aren't specifically ruled as that, are they?
Plus, important spells allow saves (baleful polymorph, color spray, tentacles, clouds). As far as save DCs go, Magi are no less reliant on int than wizards.
Honestly I think +Int to hit and damage if wielding a one-handed weapon is probably appropriate. That way it gives the low level Magus a reliable to hit and respectable damage but his DPR will lag behind the fighter because a)he doesn't have power attack and b)he can't use a two-handed weapon for the x1.5 modifier.
He'd outpace the other 3/4 BAB classes (which he should) but would lag behind the full BAB classes.
Put in a boost of +Int to AC (superior tactical positioning) at 2nd which reduces the need to boost Dex up to a high amount and you've suddenly transformed the Magus from a class that needs a high Int, Str, and Dex (meaning that Wis and Con are dumps- not so hot for a frontline character)to a class that really only needs a high Int for his standard gimmick (one-handed fighting) and can actually boost con so that he can stand and fight longer.
I really hate substituting stats and having them apply to more. Its one of the worste things they did in 3.5 for game ballance and created dozens of issues that I saw come up in games. If they do this, I would not like to see it before level 5, to prevent the horrible multiclassing abuse that comes out of it.
To avoid multiclass issues the int bonus to damage could be capped at one point of int bonus per whatever number of levels. Like duelist.
I really hate substituting stats and having them apply to more. Its one of the worste things they did in 3.5 for game ballance and created dozens of issues that I saw come up in games. If they do this, I would not like to see it before level 5, to prevent the horrible multiclassing abuse that comes out of it.
Having Int replace Strength instead of being an additive to strength is far less problematic. Further limiting it in some sort of functional way such as having it only work with light or one-handed weapon limits it's ability to be used in conjunction with two-handed weapons.
About the only major problems I see is that this would potentially allow Int-rogues to dip into Magus in order to power their TWF. They of course would still need a high dex to meet twf pre-reqs. Basically they would be shifting from DEX+STR MAD to DEX+INT MAD, which has advantages (more skill points) and disadvantages (no power attack).
Rangers are the other major problem class mainly because they get to bypass dex pre-reqs for TWF but an Int focused Ranger doesn't really bother me much.
However you could also put in another restriction that limits it to one-handed fighting only. The loss of twf and thf options would basically mean that it's utility as a dip class would be minimal.
Plus, important spells allow saves (baleful polymorph, color spray, tentacles, clouds). As far as save DCs go, Magi are no less reliant on int than wizards.
Black Tentacles does not allow a save. Also you dont need to use spells with saves. Your not playing a wizard, use more battle fiend control spells. Personally I dont think the Magus being MAD is a bad thing. If they need to fix their Plus to hit, I hope they do it through abilities and dont mess with ability scores.
I love the idea of Int to damage personally.
I don't find Magus to be overly MAD. Two primary stats, two secondary, two dump seems to be par for the course as far a MAD goes.
An extreme Int will do very little to help a Magus' Arcana problems, (I'd rather a new way to fuel them) and slow progression means a Magus' DCs will NEVER be up to snuff, no matter how much Int you get. Better to not rely on DCs than spend all your stat points and gp to improve Int only to still have crappy save DCs.
Looking over the Magus' spell list, most of the spells that allow saves (only about 35 or so) aren't that stellar to begin with. Also, the vast majority of Magus spells that allow saves have an effect on a successful save. The only otherwise worthwhile spell with no effect on a save is Slow.
I agree. The fighter seems worse off with less dump stats.
I agree. The fighter seems worse off with less dump stats.
Maybe that's a problem of feat prereqs.
I always wondered why people need to be more smart than the average to feint in combat.
I can see not dumb (int 10+) but int 13+ for combat expertise (and then improved feint its quite odd.
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+ Int modifier to melee damage is not broken at all. Especially if it's just extra damage like Sneak Attack. I believe Swashbuckler in Complete Warrior had this. Bladesinger PrC in the same book also received insight bonuses = Int modifier but not above his bladesinger class level.
This will help, but the problem that he can't output damage like other melee classes (because he is using 1H weapon), heavy penalties to Spell Combat, Spellstrike not being good, lack of good magus arcana, and lack of spells to feed his magus arcanas and other abilities. Those need to be addressed as well.
To be fair, a Magus does get a weapon that is head and shoulders better than anything anyone else will have. He doesn't have to spend a single gp on his weapon after creation and can still rock a +10 weapon between GMW and Arcane Weapon.
its funny but this is quickly sliding into 4e territory with int to attack/damage
its funny but this is quickly sliding into 4e territory with int to attack/damage
I can see where you're going with that, but I disagree. No, I'm not a fan of the "pick a stat, any stat. Want to shoot fire with strength? Go for it!" mentality, but I actually can see very specifically how this would work well for this specific class in this one instance.
The magus is all about one particular weapon, and how has he mastered that technique? Through study (ie, the flavor text of the class). Fighters are good at hitting things in general, while the magus is so/so because the fighter learned by hitting and swinging in the field of battle while the magus took long hours to figure out exactly the precise angles and motions to make his blade effective. As a warrior-scholar, he likely knows anatomy in a way most fighters will never understand and thus (like holmes) plans his moves ages in advance, knowing where and how to hit for the most damage.
I'm normally not an advocate of this, but I can see how it benefits the magus.
+ Int modifier to melee damage is not broken at all. Especially if it's just extra damage like Sneak Attack. I believe Swashbuckler in Complete Warrior had this. Bladesinger PrC in the same book also received insight bonuses = Int modifier but not above his bladesinger class level.
This will help, but the problem that he can't output damage like other melee classes (because he is using 1H weapon), heavy penalties to Spell Combat, Spellstrike not being good, lack of good magus arcana, and lack of spells to feed his magus arcanas and other abilities. Those need to be addressed as well.
Yes, and swashbuckler was a 3 level class lots of people took specifically so they could get into to damage. Many people would gladly sacrifice a level or 2 for the ability. It is way too easy to screw everything up by going this route. As a higher level ability, its ok, but no matter what I would still like to see some other cool ability than this one which is way too easily broken if not worded very carfully.
Just thought I'd point out, Holmes isn't just smart and agile, he's also far stronger than he looks (having once casually straightened an iron poker that someone had bent to try and intimidate him) and is a highly skilled martial artist (at least Aikido, Singlestick and Bartitsu; maybe more styles I can't recall).
Not to derail, but Sherlock Holmes predates the existence of Aikido by several decades...
being MAD is not a problem as long as its taken into account when the class abilities are layed out. Inquisitors, bards, melee alchemists, all have the same issues with stats. Their abilities help them cope. This class in particular has stat boosting spells in its repertoire, along with magus arcana (which hopefully are balanced to provide long term benefits and not just burn spell slots).
MAD itself does have an effect, but its generally pretty minor in the long run. Just part of the price of playing a class that has multiple party roles it can fit into.
Given that feats exist to shift Att and Dam from str to dex, I really don't see the problem with making similar feats for Int.
If the idea causes concern for other classes, then simply make one of the requirements "Spell Combat." Very few primary casters are going to be willing to dip 2 levels just to get the option of spending 2 feats.
Or you could make them Magus Arcana.
its funny but this is quickly sliding into 4e territory with int to attack/damageI can see where you're going with that, but I disagree. No, I'm not a fan of the "pick a stat, any stat. Want to shoot fire with strength? Go for it!" mentality, but I actually can see very specifically how this would work well for this specific class in this one instance.
The magus is all about one particular weapon, and how has he mastered that technique? Through study (ie, the flavor text of the class). Fighters are good at hitting things in general, while the magus is so/so because the fighter learned by hitting and swinging in the field of battle while the magus took long hours to figure out exactly the precise angles and motions to make his blade effective. As a warrior-scholar, he likely knows anatomy in a way most fighters will never understand and thus (like holmes) plans his moves ages in advance, knowing where and how to hit for the most damage.
I'm normally not an advocate of this, but I can see how it benefits the magus.
Really, choosing from 2 stats, depending on if it makes some sense, is one of the things I felt was right with 4e. Just because you don't like a system doesn't mean they are wrong on every mechanic.
Really, choosing from 2 stats, depending on if it makes some sense, is one of the things I felt was right with 4e. Just because you don't like a system doesn't mean they are wrong on every mechanic.
You're putting words into my mouth. Never said they were 'wrong on every mechanic,' but I specifically don't like the phenomena I mentioned. This isn't because I don't like 4e (actually, with essentials, my opinions are mixed) but because I actually happen to think that phenomena is really stupid. Do I mind a wizard having to work on con or wis or something for a secondary stat? Not really. Should there be a class that uses strength as its primary stat to shoot lightning? No, there really shouldn't.
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The magus is all about one particular weapon, and how has he mastered that technique? Through study (ie, the flavor text of the class). Fighters are good at hitting things in general, while the magus is so/so because the fighter learned by hitting and swinging in the field of battle while the magus took long hours to figure out exactly the precise angles and motions to make his blade effective.
"...and there are those who spend their time perfecting the use of one weapon, becoming a master without equal..."
"...They might spend months learning a new sword fighting style from one master,..."from the playtest book
"...learning the fighting techniques of exotic masters, and studying the art of combat..."
from the description of the fighter...
I think you misunderstood the flavor of the classes, as both the fighter and magus are of the same in the weapon regard as it seems to me that the only difference on the "use of weapon" is that the Magus chooses a weapon, and the fighter chooses a type of weapon, how one of them learns how to fight is very much the same - either through battle, or through study - It makes no difference to either how they learned.
Given that feats exist to shift Att and Dam from str to dex, I really don't see the problem with making similar feats for Int.I have to say, that personally, I really dislike this. But then again I dislike Dervish Dance and Guided weapons.
Weapon finesse imho is something different and honestly should not require a feat to be able to do, rather a function of the weapon (and perhaps proficiency).
-James
We're partially in agreement here. I dislike that shifting att to Dex requires a feat. Seems like that should simply be a matter of the weapon, or an alternate class ability. But I feel the same for Int and, to a lesser degree, Wisdom.
Barring a House Rule, which I've considered but not committed to, I think following the existing precedent makes sense. The Magus needs a little relief from MAD, even if costs a few feats (or Arcana) to get there.
Edit: How about a compromise? Light and (currently) Finessible weapons use Dex on Att, with a feat to convert Int or Wis to Damage?
Just thought I'd point out, Holmes isn't just smart and agile, he's also far stronger than he looks (having once casually straightened an iron poker that someone had bent to try and intimidate him) and is a highly skilled martial artist (at least Aikido, Singlestick and Bartitsu; maybe more styles I can't recall).Not to derail, but Sherlock Holmes predates the existence of Aikido by several decades...My bad; probably Jujutsu then. He did mention using a Japanese style of grappling against Moriarty, and with his build it wouldn't have been Sumo...
Back on topic, one should remember that d20 combat isn't intended to be run blow by blow; it doesn't take a whole six seconds to swing a sword after all. With that in mind, I could potentially see a feat similar to Weapon Finesse which allows the use of INT instead of STR to hit in melee; representing better use of tactics. For damage, however, it should remain STR IMHO.
Wikipedia says he is skilled with/in: Pistols(though not as good as Watson, who served in the army), Singlestick, European Fencing, Boxing, Baritsu (believed to be a mistype of bartitsu), and his favorite weapon is the Crop (what horseracers use to spur on the horse). He is known for having competed in bare knuckle boxing competitions.
I'll add my voice to the option for INT to damage, although at a later level ( Level 5 seems about right to me ), so that the Magus doesn't become a dip-and-skip class.
I'll add my voice to the option for INT to damage, although at a later level ( Level 5 seems about right to me ), so that the Magus doesn't become a dip-and-skip class.
What would you think about having it as a general feat, like Dervish Dance (Dex to Damage)? Instead of the 2 ranks in Perform: Dance, change to 2 ranks in Heal?