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Did I point you out in particular? No, I didn't.
You're right. You pointed out everyone who dared express a dissenting opinion on the current direction of the design of the magus class instead. That happens to include me, however.
Your tone is dangerously close to being argumentative...
Oh? When I repeated your phrase back to you it was suddenly "dangerously" close to argumentative?
Interesting.
Thank you for sharing your opinion with us.
Personally I don't like the class the way it is set either up right now but I am looking forward to playing it, and critiquing it.
Not to ruin your day, but no one is going to care about your critique, strictly speaking - the play test for the Magus is over.
The bard is close but lacks the damage options of the first two. But still a viable choice for a different style.
I'm not saying it's a good choice, just that it does exist. I haven't done anything or know of anything from anyone who has with the APG version.
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Personally I don't like the class the way it is set either up right now but I am looking forward to playing it, and critiquing it.Not to ruin your day, but no one is going to care about your critique, strictly speaking - the play test for the Magus is over.
Well, I expect round 2 of Magus playtest sometime (Jason did say that it's very likely). There were already hints in Know Direction podcast about changes Jason is making to the class, so I guess it's not written in stone yet.
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The bard is close but lacks the damage options of the first two. But still a viable choice for a different style.I'm not saying it's a good choice, just that it does exist. I haven't done anything or know of anything from anyone who has with the APG version.
Well, I did have a cool spring attacking power attacking vital striking idea for a mobile skirmisher type, but now the errata say that's illegal too...so...yeah. Sad face.
Maybe the DM will house rule it for me.
For the record, hp were averaged, not the better.
Right you are. Now I remember why my fighter/magic-user/thief was so easy to kill!
@ everyone crying that the Magus won[']t be what they hoped.
Get over it, they know better than you do.
They know what I hope better than I do? Wow, that's some psychic ability, in addition to game publishing cred.
In addition they communally have over 100 hundred of years of experience in role-playing
I had that, or more, just on my Monday evening home game not too long ago. Paizo is an entire company -- I assume your estimate is absurdly low, and that they do, in fact, have more aggregate experience in their office than I do in my living room. From the APs, I'm pretty confident their adventure writing ability is way ahead of the curve. From the playtest Magus, though, I'm not convinved the same is true of their design experience.
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The thing about an arcane warrior class built on the same base as the ranger and paladin (full BaB, 2 good saves, 1/2 casting, other specials) is that it's not something you can create in Pathfinder now in any way, shape or form.
A class that uses arcane flavored abilities in a manner similar to the nature flavored abilities of the ranger or the divine flavored abilities of the paladin would a class I am very interested in playing.
I would have to respectfully disagree here. I would submit that you absolutely CAN make such a Pathfinder base class! I just completed rather extensive playtesting of just such a class this past weekend. In fact, if all goes well, you may see just such a class in a few months! :)
If so, I will be very interested to hear your reactions, Jess! :)
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I would have to respectfully disagree here. I would submit that you absolutely CAN make such a Pathfinder base class!
Er...that's a strange reading of what I wrote. I guess I should have clarified farther by saying you cannot create a character using existing Pathfinder RPG rules that will have a full BaB and will engage in combat using arcane abilities and even some arcane spells of some sort or another.
I just completed rather extensive playtesting of just such a class this past weekend. In fact, if all goes well, you may see just such a class in a few months! :)
If so, I will be very interested to hear your reactions, Jess! :)
I will be happy to take a look. I made my own attempt to solidify what I wanted in such a character archetype in my own homebrewed base class. As I'm not a huge fan of channeled spells, however, I know my vision doesn't match others' vision of such a class. But through class ability mix 'n' matching similar to the APG if nothing else, these different visions of the arcane warrior should be possible.
But I will never be able to play in an offical (PFS) game with my favorite character type, it appears. Which is very sad.
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- enjoy spell combat a lot.
- don't see the point in spellstrike.
- i like that the spellbook is wizard flavored.
- come on, give the class either combat casting or eschew materials for free; prefer combat casting.
- arcanas using swift actions need some work due to arcane strike.
- suggest one of the arcanas should be like 'hand of the apprentice' from universalist wizard school.
- i would be very interested in an expanded spell list though or maybe implement arcane schools like wizards.
- fighter training is a bit weak as it locks out several fighter feat trees, suggest it be somewhere in between current state and EK diverse training.
fix that stuff and i'm sold. in some areas it actually beats the fighter2/wizard4/spellsword1/abjurant champion3/eldritch knight10 build but i know you weren't trying to. :)
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Last Monday I played a fourth level Magus for the first time at that level. To get to the heart of the matter, I used spell combat once in the first combat, then used spellstrike the following round. The first time I succeeded casting shield and didn’t hit my opponent with spell combat. When I used spell strike with Shocking Grasp I hit and did 26 points of damage. It did impress everyone; However, I had about a fifty percent chance of hitting the rest of the combat.
The next combat I used spell combat twice and both times I failed the combat casting check so, no spell. I had a 50 percent chance of success. I do not have Combat Casting, yet. I was sickened and had a real hard time hitting. I had a little less than 20 percent chance of success in hitting my opponents. When I had two hit points left I used total defense, and when I felt I could chance it with less chance of being hit by multiple attacks, I used fighting defensively along with Combat Expertise and I raised my AC nicely. I didn’t get hit. I didn’t hit either.
I noticed the times I used Spell Combat I didn’t hit with the attack that round. I used spellstrike three times and succeeded casting the spell only once. The other two times I didn’t get the spell off. With being sickened I hardly hit at all. On the damage side of things, without Power Attack, I did about 13 points of damage hitting each time I hit. Then there is that 26 hit point damage that one time.
I had a blast playing this character, I’ll post what happens next Monday. Till then, Ciao
I have been playing a Magus for just a few sessions now, and I must say I am enjoying myself immensely.
I am using the suggestions that Jason made in the pod cast, and we have been a bit more liberal with spell selection, and have advanced from 1st to 3rd level so far.
I have not taken combat casting yet, but have not failed a concentration check to date (although that's just good rolls), I can only recall missing with my weapon a couple of times, however I am using a finesse fighter, and my attack roll is pretty good.
I have only used Spellstrike once, so I need to give that a bit more of a work out.
So far the only problem I have had is that when I do get hit, it really hurts. The cleric has had to do emergency healing on me twice now to save the character....but we are running pretty high CR encounters (average of 4-5) which is pretty good for a level 1-3 character.
The only other problem I see, is that after going over the Magus Arcana multiple times now....there isn't a one that I really feel like taking :(
I'm really looking foreword to the V2 Magus, so I can bring the character in line, and see how things go.
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I have been playing a Magus for just a few sessions now, and I must say I am enjoying myself immensely.
I am using the suggestions that Jason made in the pod cast, and we have been a bit more liberal with spell selection, and have advanced from 1st to 3rd level so far.
Where is this podcast or what did he say in it? I played the Magus again Monday night and it is a fun class to play.
The first fight I cast Mirror Image and only got two images. That didn't last long nor did I. I kept getting hit and lost hit points quickly. I didn't hit very often and soon went down. the players tried to revitalize me but with few hit points recovered I kept going down.
The second fight was much easier. We ambushed a troupe of bugbears with an entangle and I used Fire Breath. The second level spell that does damage over three rounds in the Advanced players guide. I got rid of a few Bugbears with the damage the rest of the party did each round. The fourth round I simply hit the last of the standing attackers. I didn't get hit.
With out strength this character has a hard time hitting. The AC I have been attacking is 17 last Monday night and the Monday before. Starting with a low AC means you need a personal healer most of the time. If your character has the money to invest in AC that would be a priority. I did not use Spell Combat or Spell Strike I had the spells for it. I just didn't use the resource.
Where is this podcast or what did he say in it? I played the Magus again Monday night and it is a fun class to pla
My computer skills are next to nill....but let's see if I can actually provide a link that may help.....
AAAHHHHHH.....that's not where it was supposed to take you.....
One moment please.......someone....HALP....
OK, brief text is about all I can provide....
"In the latest episode of the Know Directions podcast, there was an interview with Jason Bulhman. Amongst other interesting things he revealed a provisional fix to Spell Combat that I hadn't seen discussed here. They were:
The ability is now received at 1st level
The penalty on attacks is now -2
The penalty on Concentration is gone
You can increase the penalty to attack to increase the Concentration check (on a one-to-one basis)"
Others more versed in the art of provviding links will have to do the rest.....sorry ;)
I love the look of the class and have a couple of them built to use as enemies for my group. The only issue I have with the class is the spell list itself. I know more spells are likely to be added with the new book, but they have to many large area effects and the like. My opinion is they should get melee and ranged touch attacks, transmutation spells, a few utility or combat spells, and thats it. I dont think the melee character who gets armor, a d8 hit die, and prof with all martial weapons needs fireball on his spell list.
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Where is this podcast or what did he say in it? I played the Magus again Monday night and it is a fun class to play.
Here is the forum link detailing the changes:
Paizo forum linkHere is a link to the podcast itself:
Know Direction 16
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You guys are the best, thank you MoFiddy for coming up with the links. Not only was there what you all mentioned about the Spell Combat being first level and all that there was talked about an Arcane Pool System. If you guys can come up with a link to where this is mentioned in the posts Jason Bhulman set up. I would greatly appreciate it.
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You guys are the best, thank you MoFiddy for coming up with the links. Not only was there what you all mentioned about the Spell Combat being first level and all that there was talked about an Arcane Pool System. If you guys can come up with a link to where this is mentioned in the posts Jason Bhulman set up. I would greatly appreciate it.
You're welcome.
I don't think Jason has posted anything about the new spellcasting system on the Paizo boards. That is the next playtest, but it has not been released yet. Is that what you are referring to?
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You guys are the best, thank you MoFiddy for coming up with the links. Not only was there what you all mentioned about the Spell Combat being first level and all that there was talked about an Arcane Pool System. If you guys can come up with a link to where this is mentioned in the posts Jason Bhulman set up. I would greatly appreciate it.You're welcome.
I don't think Jason has posted anything about the new spellcasting system on the Paizo boards. That is the next playtest, but it has not been released yet. Is that what you are referring to?
I found a few posts about an "Arcane Pool" system. What they were suggesting in these threads was to use it like a monks ki system but with spells. To use a ki point to increase armor class or bonus to hit. That is the gist of what I think these individuals have posted. One of them had Jason saying he liked the idea. It is under the thread "Arcane Pool" I believe. Way down the list. I believe that is the idea behind what he called, "Arcane Pool System" in the podcast.
As for letting those changes in your home game mentioned in the podcast. Remember, he was talking to the interviewer and did not mention this to be used in any other game. Not for PFS but could be used for home games I suppose.
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The ability is now received at 1st level
The penalty on attacks is now -2
The penalty on Concentration is gone
You can increase the penalty to attack to increase the Concentration check (on a one-to-one basis)"Others more versed in the art of provviding links will have to do the rest.....sorry ;)
I listened to the Pod cast and the interviewer said that he is having his Maguses at eighth level. If I'm correct, the Magus gets rid of his concentration check at this level and his minus four to hit is also gone at eighth level, replacing it with a minus two. That is nothing new, to decrease the negative to hit and to increase his concentration check is new and needs a limit.
At first level, If I could decrease my chance to hit by subtracting a certain amount, and that amount given to the concentration check; Then, why wouldn't I do this to the full to automatically tap the concentration check every time I cast, and add more minuses to fight defensively to hit only with a twenty. I would do this with each spell I cast and increase my armor, automatically get the spell off with sacrificing my chance to hit. If I roll a twenty, I hit anyway and do damage with all that bonus. It is kind of unfair.
Maybe if this is done on a one to one basis with an Arcane pool. That might balance this out.
I wish that the ability to scry on a bonded weapon happened sooner. Its not like you will have the chance to scry all that often, and it can make for some fun scenarios for a party to be fallowing someone due to a hidden knife that belongs to the magus
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It looks like a lot of people are building Magi as Intelligence-primary classes. They're basically playing Magi like they were Wizards with better durability. This makes them frustrated, because a Magus makes a poor Wizard. A very, very poor Wizard.
Don't let the 3/4 BAB fool you, folks. The Magus is a fighting class. They happen to use spells to fight, but they are warriors to the core. Everything about the Magus points to the thick of combat. Put points in Strength first. Whatever you've got left over, you can put that into Intelligence.
It is possible to make a functioning Magus with just 11 starting Intelligence. I recommend no less than 13 but no more than 15 to start. 15+ intelligence is Wizard territory, and if you want to make an arcane character with 16 or more intelligence, just make a Wizard.
The most powerful part of a Magus character is that they can adapt their action economy to fit the needs of their current fight. In a hard fight, they can go 'all out', burning spells left and right as they dispense harm through melee attacks as well. In an easy fight, they can stick to just attacking, perhaps casting a spell or two.
A Magus who jealously hoards resources through the easy fights will find that he has plenty of firepower when the going gets really rough.
I'm not playing a Magus right now, but one of my fellow party members is, and we've all been very happy with how it works out. Of course, the player who's playing the Magus is experienced with making War Wizards, and he got somewhat lucky with the die rolls.
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I listened to the Pod cast and the interviewer said that he is having his Maguses at eighth level. If I'm correct, the Magus gets rid of his concentration check at this level and his minus four to hit is also gone at eighth level, replacing it with a minus two. That is nothing new, to decrease the negative to hit and to increase his concentration check is new and needs a limit.
I think he's talking about that being the way Spell Combat works starting at level 1. No penalty to concentration and -2 to hit is identical to Improved Spell Combat which you get at lvl 8 anyway.
This was a needed change so that Spell Combat was mathematically feasible at low levels.
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It looks like a lot of people are building Magi as Intelligence-primary classes. They're basically playing Magi like they were Wizards with better durability. This makes them frustrated, because a Magus makes a poor Wizard. A very, very poor Wizard.
Don't let the 3/4 BAB fool you, folks. The Magus is a fighting class. They happen to use spells to fight, but they are warriors to the core. Everything about the Magus points to the thick of combat. Put points in Strength first. Whatever you've got left over, you can put that into Intelligence.
I'm interested in how your player is pulling this off. Is not the save for the spells being cast too low for them to be of much use with a low Int?
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The save for his spells is pretty abysmal. I think he has a 14-15 intelligence and we're level 7 now. He used Flaming Sphere a little while ago and it was completely ineffectual; I don't think he'll use it to attack anything ever again. It's tempting to think that this would make him an ineffectual caster in general.
But casting spells that allow saves at all is generally what full casters are for. Magi clean up with spells that allow no save. Scorching Ray is a great example - there's an attack roll but no save. The magus is better than the wizard at attack rolls, so his Scorching Ray is more likely to hit.
Enlarge Person, Expeditious Retreat, Bull's Strength, Shield, Shocking Grasp, Scorching Ray, and Magic Missile seem to be the favorite spells for our magus to cast, and none of them bother with saves. Oh, and Mirror Image. Can't forget that. Mirror Image is the best spell there is for a melee bruiser like him.
I think the only spell he frequently uses that allows a save is Burning Hands, and that's for swarms. They have bad reflex saves, and it usually doesn't matter much if they make the save anyways.
If you're making a magus, I don't recommend you use spells that allow for a negating save. If the spell allows a save for partial, or even half damage, it could be fine, but only if the partial/half will actually contribute to the battle. I do recommend you pick out spells that involve attack rolls or make you stronger.
The magus does not excel at Save or Die. That's the province of casters who have the luxury of concentrating on casting at the expense of physical stats. It's a lot like building a Transmuter who makes liberal use of the polymorph subschool in order to tear his enemies to little pieces; you need a lot of strength to overcome your BAB deficiency, as well as to do lots of damage in combat. The right spell selection obviates a need for high save DC's.
From what I've seen of our group's magus, an effective style for this class is to have stats similar to a trip-attack fighter.
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Good stuff, thanks. We're about to finish CotCT and unless I get roped into being the primary healer I'll be playing a Magus for our next campaign. Right now I'm thinking:
Str 12
Dex 17 (15+2)
Con 12
Int 16
Wis 8
Cha 11
I won't do much damage but I'll be able to up that with Spell Combat, Spell Strike, Enlarge and a usage of Bulls Strength here and there. I know Weapon Finesse is a bit of a trap but I'm terrified by the seemingly low AC's offered by other builds.
You might be right about dropping the Int down to 14, though. I'll still get a bonus spell for 1st and 2nd level and by the time I'm casting 3rd level spells I should be able to get a headband. Ok, drawing board, here I come!
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I will be curious to know how that works. It's a more defensive build than the magus we have, but we really need the firepower in our party.
Keep in mind that low AC can always be mitigated by gaining reach (with Enlarge Person), using AC-buffing spells, and miss chance later on.
Of course, low damage can be mitigated by powerful spells, but high damage and powerful spells together can make fights very short.
I suspect you'll be happier if you even out your strength and intelligence, so that you get a +2 from both. But hey, what do I know? I'm not even playing the magus myself!
Hmmm... if you're going the high-dex and weapon finess route, you could conceivably focus on critical hits. With a rapier (keen via the arcane bond), your crits will come somewhat often, and a critical hit doubles the damage of your spell as well as the weapon damage.
And let me tell you, a critical hit with a shocking grasp plus weapon damage is pretty awesome.
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I'll also be interested to see how it turns out. I'm hoping we can play with a 25 point buy and I can up my Str some but we'll see. As far as weapon choices, I was actually thinking about the aldori dueling sword quite a bit. It allows you to freely switch between using it one handed or two which would be nice.
Str 14
Dex 18 (16+2)
Con 12
Int 14
Wis 8
Cha 10
Following your advice, I've dropped the Int to get the Str up to enough that I'll be doing +3 damage when I can use the sword 2-handed and +2 the rest of the time. I only worry about the costs of a Belt of Physical Might to up my Dex and Str.
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Ok, thoughts on Magus Class as it is right now...
So i have tested it all the way up to 20 and we then tested a Wizard/ fighter/ Eldritch Knight 20 (break down is wiz-5 figt-1 EK-10 fgt-1 wiz 3)
there is a few huge issues i noticed:
feats, skill points, bab, and spells makes the EK path far more powerful than the magus.
If the Magus is supposed to be the Base class, should not the Magus path be better than the EK path in ANY way? It seems that when i built the EK the Magus simply could not even keep up. The one thing i love about pathfinder above all else, is that there was little need to prestige class, but it seems like the Ek just sooo overpowers the Magus, its unreal.
My view so far... thank you for listening...
I suspect there will be an even better Gish prestige class in UM if the Holy Vindicator is any indication. That said, where the Magus wins v. the Eldritch Knight is action economy. Barring a critical or metamagic, the EK can't cast and attack. The Magus can and, with the changes from the Know Direction podcast, can do it pretty well.
In all fairness, we should wait to see the book the Magus is in before judging its lack of touch spells.
Not having Heroism is a downer, though. Even the Divine casting Inquisitor gets Heroism...
+1
I believe that it was also mentioned that there are a lot of new spells coming out, many of which could end up on the Magus spell list.
Who knows, they may have a different option in store that fits the flavor even better than Heroism ;)
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Who knows, they may have a different option in store that fits the flavor even better than Heroism ;)If there's a 10 min/level level 3 spell that is better than +2 to attack, skills and saves there is a good chance its broken. My lvl 14 Inquisitor runs that spell all damn day.
He said "different option that fits the flavor better than heroism", where are you getting that it would be broken?
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He said "different option that fits the flavor better than heroism", where are you getting that it would be broken?
Yeah, I guess a spell that was flavorful would be ok. But if it does something similar there's no reason to make it. If it's better than Heroism then it might be broken. If it's worse than Heroism I'd rather have Heroism, obviously.
He said "different option that fits the flavor better than heroism", where are you getting that it would be broken?Yeah, I guess a spell that was flavorful would be ok. But if it does something similar there's no reason to make it. If it's better than Heroism then it might be broken. If it's worse than Heroism I'd rather have Heroism, obviously.
Well there is Good Hope -- affects more people and adds to all saves (and damage) but doesn't last as long.
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Well there is Good Hope -- affects more people and adds to all saves (and damage) but doesn't last as long.
It's the 10 min/level thing and the fact that the spell level that is low enough that a lesser extend rod works on it that reallymakes this a must have spell for me. At level 6 you're talking about an hour or 2 with the rod. Used judiciously that's sweet bonuses for nearly every fight for a day with only a couple castings.
Well there is Good Hope -- affects more people and adds to all saves (and damage) but doesn't last as long.It's the 10 min/level thing and the fact that the spell level that is low enough that a lesser extend rod works on it that reallymakes this a must have spell for me. At level 6 you're talking about an hour or 2 with the rod. Used judiciously that's sweet bonuses for nearly every fight for a day with only a couple castings.
Yeah I understand that -- I just like the fact that Good Hope adds to everything (including what heroism doesn't add to) and hits the entire party.
I've played a buffing bard before -- adding +6 to hit +5 to damage and an extra attack in addition to 30 foot of movement to myself (in addition to +3 to reflex saves, +2 to fort and will and +1 to Initiative and AC) and all my allies in one round is massive -- the resulting attacks tend to end the fight in the next round from my experience.
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I'll also be interested to see how it turns out. I'm hoping we can play with a 25 point buy and I can up my Str some but we'll see. As far as weapon choices, I was actually thinking about the aldori dueling sword quite a bit. It allows you to freely switch between using it one handed or two which would be nice.
Str 14
Dex 18 (16+2)
Con 12
Int 14
Wis 8
Cha 10
Hi
You might want to look at the Qadira book sometime.
With Wpn Finesse and 2 ranks in Perform (Dance), you might be eligible for Dervish Dance feat. Allows you to use Dex for attack/damage when using scimitar. You do have to follow Sarenrae, be NG, and have off hand free.
The APG has a Sarenrae Trait that grants +2 FIre dam with Scimtar on crits too........
So - that's D6+4 dam, threat 18+, leaving off hand free. With Shield spell that's pretty good AC.
(Though I's suggest Str 12 Dex 18 Con 14 Int 14 Wis 10 Cha 8)
Thanks
Paul H
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Howdy, Paul. I am actually aware of Dervish Dance. I really wanted to use the Aldori Dueling Sword and I talked it over with my GM and we agreed that it was silly that something like that would only be available to one weapon so we worked it into a new feat that covered the Dueling Sword. Below is my (probably) final build.