Thoughts I've had reading the forums and the playtest material (can't actually playtest it right, otherwise I would):
1. While I understand the fear of making it too powerful, I think a lot of people are letting this fear lead them to making suggestions that could end up making it not powerful enough, especially in the first few levels of play.
2. Spell Strike and Spell Combat - most seem to like the idea but feel the exact implementation is off. Not much I can think of personally on this note, since any ideas would have to be play tested to worth much.
3. Spell List - I am glad it has its own list, but would like to see appropriate spells from the divine spells lists included, since it is already using the bard chassis for pretty much everything else. Will have to wait to see the spells being added in the new book before I can make further judgments, though having more core spells that fit the theme (especially touch spells) would make it easier the DM to prepare appropriate challenges without having to memorize the new book. The number of spells allowed seems to be a concern, though those arguing they get too many and too few seem to be equal.
4. The magus arcana - excellent idea, personally I would increase the number of them and make them more like the rogue talents or alchemists discoveries. Making most of the current class abilities (except central ones spell strike and spell combat and anything related to those two things) into magus arcana gives the class a little more variety in builds and allows the core features to really stand out. Maybe make an arcana that would allow spell strike to be used for unarmed and/or natural weapons. Use of spell slots to power abilities is an issue. I would instead make the arcana 3 + int times per day like most domain, school, and bloodline powers are. This could also allow the the spells per day to be more in line with the wizard, which is what seems to be the standard comparison.
Overall, a good job at creating a fairly balanced version of a concept that is very hard to build without it being underpowered or overpowered. I look forward to seeing the adjustments made to it in later versions.
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Is it leagal to use a PFS society session for playtest?
Yes, it is. This was included in the latest PFS document.
I was considering creating a Magus for a backup PFS character, but I don't think I will. My Oracle was adversely affected by converting from the playtest to the APG rules and I don't want that to happen again. I can see the possibility of feat and proficiency changes after the playtest leading to unwise weapon, armor and ability buys in PFS.
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I hate to say this, but this class is VERY close in concept & execution to The Genius Guide to the Vanguard. Main difference is the Vanguard is a spontaneous caster. Class abilities are similar in theme, but a little different in method of use.
Heh, is that a good thing or a bad thing?
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Okay after using a base full of magus, the level 6 mooks were REALLY weak. I mean pointless weak. Then we jump 2 levels to level 8 and while a group of 6 level 6 magus wasn't even a speed bump, the two level 8 ones downed 2 or 3 party members on a pretty regular rate. For a party of level 11. Yes they are not very optimized...but still the disparity of power between level 6 and 8 is pretty dang noticable. They TPKed the level 12 with two level 8 encounter. They are now prisoners and in an escape game now...with two players needing new characters. So yeah, they get pretty brutal once they reach level 8...but are almost a joke before then.
I hate to say this, but this class is VERY close in concept & execution to The Genius Guide to the Vanguard. Main difference is the Vanguard is a spontaneous caster. Class abilities are similar in theme, but a little different in method of use.Heh, is that a good thing or a bad thing?
To be honest, I really am not sure. LOL.
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Yesterday I played an intro pathfinder society game and was debating giving this class a whirl. However, after looking through the class abilities and making some level progressions I could not find myself ever choosing this class. Luckily from a playtesting standpoint, another player (which we can refer to as Mike) rolled up a Magus which turned out to be a horrible mistake. As is it is terribly weak which I'll point out some deficiencies below:
1.)Niche: I keep seeing people on the boards refer to the Magus as holding the fighter/wizard niche. What exactly is the focus of this niche? Jason has pointed out that his spell list is designed to reflect that of a Blaster type wizard which focuses on DPR. Unlike the Ranger with favored enemy/tracking and the Paladin with smite evil/healing the Magus has no “niche” area to fill other than contributing as much DPR as possible. So if the Magus’ focus is on DPR he needs to make comparable DPR to fighters. Due to medium BAB, additional penalties when casting and One Handed Weapon restrictions he will never be comparable to the consistent DPR of the Fighter. Therefore, the Magus has no “niche”. Mike's Magus had no additional skills to contribute to the group and by the time he had finished prepping his weapons for strike my monk and another player's barbarian had killed everyone else.
2.)Spellstrike: Having to cast a spell one round then wait another round to use it? Under the touch spell rules you may have one stored indefinitely until used or another one is cast. This means a prepared Magus would hold a touch spell in his weapon at the start of combat. But after he makes that first hit (which becomes problematic at later levels) he is useless and I will even argue the extra damage granted by the spell is pitiful anyways when compared to fighters that can hit consistently AND deal effective damage. People who think this ability is powerful are misreading it as the ability to cast and attack in the same round. By the time Mike’s Magus was ready for his second strike, my monk and the parties barbarian had dealt with the remaining enemies.
3.)One Handed Weapons: Every player making a character focused on DPR knows that a Two-Handed weapon coupled with Power Attack is a must. The only purpose for choosing a One-Handed Weapon is using a shield for higher AC. If the Magus wants even the chance to contribute effective damage, he must use Power Attack. The penalties from that combined with medium BAB and spell combat are crippling. Mike was using a rapier for extra crit range dealing 1d6+3 damage. My Monk using a Faulchard with the same crit range for 2d6+6 damage dealing more damage than Mike's rapier buffed with shocking grasp and having reach!
4.)Spell List: I won’t touch base here since Jason said it will be improved.
5.)Spontaneous Casting: I think DrowVampyre has pointed out excellent thematic and mechanical points for this argument but since Jason says it’s not liable to change I won’t press the issue.
Overall: I would like to point out as DrowVampyre has that you already have a fighter/wizard variant in the Arcane Duelist. You guys did the same thing with the Summoner, an unnecessary and overpowered class that replaced the Conjurer. Why replace something that exists with an unecessary base class?
I must say this class needs a serious overhaul to become playable. The idea is neat and flashy but mechanically cannot contribute to the party. I think you should have built a class similar to the Ranger and Paladin seeing as they are divine warrior variants and have the high BAB to make them effective melee fighters. I doubt this will happen so some feasible improvements would be these:
1.)Weapons as Somatic Components: People in these forums have using weapons as somatic components. It’s a perfect, easy idea that fits with a Magus channeling his spells through his weapon and gives them flexibility to decide between higher AC or higher DPR.
2.)Consider allowing them either an arcane or just flat out the ability to use ranged touch spells with Spellstrike. This would make the spell’s range that of touch so it goes off where the player strikes. Smashing an enemy with your Falchion while simultaneously setting off a fireball??? Now you have someone able to cover crowd control and individual damage.
3.)Spellstrike should allow them to channel spells freely through their weapons at perhaps an AC penalty for the somatic movements required. Alternatively you could have them cast normally (i.e. provoking or casting defensively) but also attack and expend the spell in the same round.
4.)Lower penalties for Spellcombat to be comparable of two weapon fighting with light weapons and make it useable with Two-Handed Weapons/off-hand/shield with penalties comparable of fighting with two medium weapons.
5.)Give them a “niche” ability similar to the Ranger’s tracking, Inquisitor's monster lore, Paladin's healing, Rogue's trapfinding... You know what all the other hybrid classes have to make up for their less DPR than the Fighter and be effective party members.
6.)Lower spells per day to 3 (one less than wizard to fit with the one less rule posed by DrowVampyre) and raise BAB to high and HP to high to make them effective frontline fighters. This is unconventional by the normal patter of hybrids but like I said if you wanted to fit the pattern of hybrid spellcaster/fighter you should have designed the class around the Ranger and Paladin.
6.)Lower spells per day to 3 (one less than wizard to fit with the one less rule posed by DrowVampyre) and raise BAB to high and HP to high to make them effective frontline fighters. This is unconventional by the normal patter of hybrids but like I said if you wanted to fit the pattern of hybrid spellcaster/fighter you should have designed the class around the Ranger and Paladin.
This has a huge contrast with the arcanas, which brings the other problem: what spells will the magus cast, if he uses all of them to power all their class features? The magus concept involves burning so many spells that a magus that plans to last the whole day is reduced to the level of a Warrior with a magic weapon.
I don't seem to be getting a lot of feedback in the other thread, so I thought I'd post this in a more active forum. Essentially, I playtested the magus and found it lacking. My dm approved a re-make that he is allowing me to play in his adventures. I was hoping that Jason, along with the rest of the general community, would give me some feedback.
Here it is:
The Magus Remake
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This has a huge contrast with the arcanas, which brings the other problem: what spells will the magus cast, if he uses all of them to power all their class features? The magus concept involves burning so many spells that a magus that plans to last the whole day is reduced to the level of a Warrior with a magic weapon.
The same could be said of a barbarian without his rage. However, the barbarian has more diverse skills than the warrior, more hp, and is a failsafe for opening things that could be trapped. All these give the barbarian a unique "niche" seperating him from just becoming a warrior with a magic weapon. The Magus has no extra power and needs one, or else you need to make him a Fighter build (high BAB and hp) who uses magic instead of feats.
I don't seem to be getting a lot of feedback in the other thread, so I thought I'd post this in a more active forum. Essentially, I playtested the magus and found it lacking. My dm approved a re-make that he is allowing me to play in his adventures. I was hoping that Jason, along with the rest of the general community, would give me some feedback.
Here it is:
The Magus Remake
Hey Kibeth,
I liked your take on that class a lot actually. The expanded and improved Magus Arcana list was by and large a vast improvement. First impressions:
Love the point system, and that it's renewable by spells but not entirely dependant on them. In reality I think this maybe gives the Magus an extra combat or so where he doesn't have to start burning spells. Given his spells per day this is a good thing. Think it would work better with a spontaneous caster though, ultimately. However, your 'Touch Spell Mastery' arcana is rather inspired and would alleviate one of my biggest concerns about playing such a class as a prepared caster.
Arcane Might is very similar to Arcane strike, and since you put that up as an optional bonus feat it may not be necessary to have a version that carries a spell point cost.
Expanded Arcana, again, I think this is a great option for a Magus, though it may topple balance in the hands of power gamers (but then our resident power gamer can break anything, so that's not necessarily a genuine problem).
I see that you've addressed the MAD issue significantly. Arcane insight, coupled with Arcane might *and* Arcane Strike all seem to do a similar job. Good job two of them are swift actions or it could get nasty. I'd actually like to see an Int bonus to hit, but that may be taking it too far...
I'm not exactly sure about Arcane Wind. Is this inspired from something else? It didn't fit conceptually for me (subjective opinion only). Flying in space seems a bit outside his modus.
The 20th level capstone is perhaps a little nasty. Also it undermines tactical choices when selecting the Arcana. I'd personally impose a few more limits on it.
Overall though, really good, IMHO and def something I'd consider playing over the existing version.
I don't seem to be getting a lot of feedback in the other thread, so I thought I'd post this in a more active forum. Essentially, I playtested the magus and found it lacking. My dm approved a re-make that he is allowing me to play in his adventures. I was hoping that Jason, along with the rest of the general community, would give me some feedback.
Here it is:
The Magus Remake
Also: since he cannot use armour or shields -
Is Arcane Armour a force effect, or simulating Dexterity bonus? I'm guessing the latter, but I think that needs to be clearer.
I'd like to see a form of force armour or shield, if not, perhaps amongst the arcana...not sure how you'd work this into enough rounds per day to be useful though. He is a melee character after all.
Ok, I think I'm out. Thanks for putting that together, man.
K
Arcane wind was inspired by some other adventures I've played with some of my friends. We faced a dmpc once that essentially could do that every time he swung his sword for an infinite duration. I liked the concept, but obviously it was quite broken. So I took the winds of vengeance spell and put limits on it. As far as the capstone goes, I don't really feel that it undermines tactical choices when taking arcana. It's once per day, for 3 rounds. It's kind of designed to be a last minute power boost to kill the big bad boss, if you need it. You get 3 rounds of perfect knowledge and clarity, then you're done, and there's no way to do it again until you prepare your spells. I really tried to fix some of the MAD issues. Your stats are still pretty spread, but I feel like it's a little better. The swift actions are there for exactly that reason. And they cost points. The int to attack thing would probably be a little much haha. Also, the bonus to ac is whatever the monk one is in pathfinder. I'm pretty sure it's untyped. Thanks for the input guys, I really appreciate it.
In all honesty, I think the best advice I can give on the class, is to cancel it. Just dump it, wait until you can get a better idea of what the community is asking for and release it in a future product.
I can't speak for everyone, and some people will adamantly disagree with me, but it just doesn’t have the same quality and interesting design elements of other classes designed by Jason. It's boring, and very similar to many existing classes.
Jason just drop it as a class until you get more inspiration and more insight into what the community actually wants.
Sorry for being a pain, but I just can't stand the class as written.
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In all honesty, I think the best advice I can give on the class, is to cancel it. Just dump it, wait until you can get a better idea of what the community is asking for and release it in a future product.
I can't speak for everyone, and some people will adamantly disagree with me, but it just doesn’t have the same quality and interesting design elements of other classes designed by Jason. It's boring, and very similar to many existing classes.
Jason just drop it as a class until you get more inspiration and more insight into what the community actually wants.
Sorry for being a pain, but I just can't stand the class as written.
And what is the community asking for ? Because so far I saw people asking for a Duskblade v2, people asking for an arcane Paladin, people asking for a base class EK, people asking for a Hexblade v2, people asking for an arcane Cleric, people asking for a Psiwarrior v2 and people asking for trouble. :)
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In all honesty, I think the best advice I can give on the class, is to cancel it. Just dump it, wait until you can get a better idea of what the community is asking for and release it in a future product.
I can't speak for everyone, and some people will adamantly disagree with me, but it just doesn’t have the same quality and interesting design elements of other classes designed by Jason. It's boring, and very similar to many existing classes.
Jason just drop it as a class until you get more inspiration and more insight into what the community actually wants.
Sorry for being a pain, but I just can't stand the class as written.
With all due respect, this just might be one of the most presumptuous posts I've seen in a long time.
One of the first rules of design (or anything creative really) is that you can NEVER please everyone ... EVER. I speak from experience. No matter what Paizo does with this class, there are going to be people that love it and people that hate it. As it stands now (and remember, this is just the FIRST iteration of the class!) I think most, but certainly not all, people feel it is going in the right general direction. I have a strong suspicion that the second iteration, which will reflect the feedback received, will make even more people happy (but, again, not everyone).
And, if the class doesn't end up being what some people personally were hoping it would be, there are plenty of other options out there!
For what it's worth, I think the class as it stands IS going in the right direction.
And what is the community asking for ? Because so far I saw people asking for a Duskblade v2, people asking for an arcane Paladin, people asking for a base class EK, people asking for a Hexblade v2, people asking for an arcane Cleric, people asking for a Psiwarrior v2 and people asking for trouble. :)In all honesty, I think the best advice I can give on the class, is to cancel it. Just dump it, wait until you can get a better idea of what the community is asking for and release it in a future product.
I can't speak for everyone, and some people will adamantly disagree with me, but it just doesn’t have the same quality and interesting design elements of other classes designed by Jason. It's boring, and very similar to many existing classes.
Jason just drop it as a class until you get more inspiration and more insight into what the community actually wants.
Sorry for being a pain, but I just can't stand the class as written.
Lately I've seen alot of people looking for trouble on these boards. Maybe they ought to go play Munchkin? :)
Yep, I knew I would eventually offend someone, but here is my point if you already have more then one class doing, well at least somewhat similar things, to the what the magus does; the eldritch knight is, the arcane duelist is, the arcane archer is, and it's not to far a stretch to include the summoner, inquisitor, and other bards are too, what's the point. But, I'll fully admit this is play-test feedback not an opinion on whether the class is necessary or not. So, if you want me to just shut up I will, but I still stand by my opinion that the class is boring.
I knew full well that that post would offend, but that's never stopped anyone from posting before. Sorry if you where offended.
And what is the community asking for ? Because so far I saw people asking for a Duskblade v2, people asking for an arcane Paladin, people asking for a base class EK, people asking for a Hexblade v2...
And all 4 of those things could be accomplished with a single full BAB/half-caster class -- exactly the class that the Magus isn't.
And what is the community asking for ? Because so far I saw people asking for a Duskblade v2, people asking for an arcane Paladin, people asking for a base class EK, people asking for a Hexblade v2...And all 4 of those things could be accomplished with a single full BAB/half-caster class -- exactly the class that the Magus isn't.
An Eldritch Knight is usually much closer to a full caster than a half caster. But I'd agree that there are at most two (or maybe three) variations to choose from:
- Competent caster with a little melee fighting
- Competent melee fighter with a little spellcasting
- And maybe "neither fish nor fowl"
An Eldritch Knight is usually much closer to a full caster than a half caster.And what is the community asking for ? Because so far I saw people asking for a Duskblade v2, people asking for an arcane Paladin, people asking for a base class EK, people asking for a Hexblade v2...And all 4 of those things could be accomplished with a single full BAB/half-caster class -- exactly the class that the Magus isn't.
And much closer to a 3/4 BAB than full.
I played a first level Magus this past weekend in a kick-off game for Serpent's Skull. The group included a Barbarian, a Summoner, and a Witch.
The Magus I built was an Elf (because to me the Magus is the ideal Elf) with a high Dex and Weapon Finesse. We had three combats over the course of the session and I can definitely say that my Magus held his own in relation to the other PCs. He accounted for four solo kills, whereas the Barbarian accounted for one.
I have to say, that at least first level, he seemed to perform fairly well. My melee attacks were only off by one from the Barbarian. My damage was less, but only marginally because of the Barbarian's significantly higher Strength.
Though in each combat, I only ended up casting one spell each time. Once combat had started, I ended up resorting strictly to using my weapon.
I can't speak to how this class performs at higher levels, but at least at first level it does perform respectably well.
And much closer to a 3/4 BAB than full.
Ignore the three perfect examples to focus on one that you're still not selling well? (EldKt still gets that 4th attack, unlike the Magus, and gets higher-level spells to boot.)
And there's still the Bard, Alchemist, Summoner, etc. -- in addition to Magus -- if you want a 3/4 BAB, 3/4 arcane caster. How many full BAB, arcane half-casters are there?
Oh, yeah, still zero.
Yep, I knew I would eventually offend someone, but here is my point if you already have more then one class doing, well at least somewhat similar things, to the what the magus does; the eldritch knight is, the arcane duelist is, the arcane archer is, and it's not to far a stretch to include the summoner, inquisitor, and other bards are too, what's the point. But, I'll fully admit this is play-test feedback not an opinion on whether the class is necessary or not. So, if you want me to just shut up I will, but I still stand by my opinion that the class is boring.
I knew full well that that post would offend, but that's never stopped anyone from posting before. Sorry if you where offended.
I wasn't offended. Merely amused. You are perfectly entitled to your opinion, no doubt about it.
But if we asume that we are to figure out the ups and downs with the magus, where to improve it and all that technical stuff, a statement like "the class isn't necessary, so why not just let it go?" is not constructive. There may be many flaws with the magus as it stands now, there may be not - enter: "the Playtest". I think it is safe to asume that the magus is coming no matter what. So let's help make it as good as it can get :)
Personally I think the magus needs some work before I would consider playing one. And I seem to get the feeling that that work is being done. And what kind of tweaks it needs has already been suggested by some of the bright people haunting this place :)
I would never ask you to shut up, unless you were being rude to me personally, but I'm way to nice a person to attract that kind of irefull attention :)
And much closer to a 3/4 BAB than full.Ignore the three perfect examples to focus on one that you're still not selling well? (EldKt still gets that 4th attack, unlike the Magus, and gets higher-level spells to boot.)
(shrug) Whether you like it or not, the magus is designed to be closest to a eldritch knight as a base class; or, more accurately, it's designed to be a fighter/magic-user from editions past. It doesn't matter what else it could be, this is what it is.
And yes, there are several other 3/4 BAB, 3/4 casting arcanists. Not one of which is like the magus in the slightest, either in design or in actual play. Only the bard is even kinda close, and even there the two feel very different when you're sittig at the table.
I get that you want an arcane paladin/ranger. But it's not what the magus is, it's not what the magus is going to be, it's not what the magus is designed to be, and there's no real point in shouting about it.
I'm unable to get on the boards that much anymore: so I apologize if these ideas are posted elsewhere.
After playing a Swashbuckler/Fighter/Warmage/Spellsword/Bladesinger (in 3.5) into the teens i'm very familiar with the 'Magus' concept. I find that the Magus is a dificult build, in that, it is either lopsided to the caster aspect of the class or the fighter aspect. Conversely, you can struggle to balance the two but I think you wind up with a character that is good at neither.
From my experience I'd suggest the following:
1) Combat casting as a bonus feat at 1st.
Casting defensively was purposely made more difficult in Pathfinder. But makes a character based on casting in combat effectively useless.
2)An arcana that adds Int to AC would be nice.
It's similar to Monk and Wisdom & Bladesinger had it. I think it's important especially if you want to concentrate on the 'caster' aspect of the class & not get owned every combat in melee.
3) Hopefully their are more touch spells on their list in the magic book.
Right now they have a couple, but, all-in-all are pretty devoid of them. Touch attacks seems to be a secondary 'theme' of the Magus but just doesn't have that many at this point. This also balances out the 'fighter' aspect of the class. With more to-hit but no-save spells this allows a player with a lesser Int to actually 'stick' some of the spells he's casting.
Thanks!
And much closer to a 3/4 BAB than full.Ignore the three perfect examples to focus on one that you're still not selling well? (EldKt still gets that 4th attack, unlike the Magus, and gets higher-level spells to boot.)
I presume he's ignoring those three examples for the same reason that you ignored the two examples (from the post you partially quoted) that don't match your suggestion of a half-caster (arcane Cleric, Psiwarrior v2).
I presume he's ignoring those three examples for the same reason that you ignored the two examples (from the post you partially quoted) that don't match your suggestion of a half-caster (arcane Cleric, Psiwarrior v2).
Different reasons, actually. Arcane cleric would be 3/4 BAB, full casting -- a battle sorcerer, in other words. It's in the SRD, is open content, we can use that as-is or modify it as we see fit; no need to redesign a new class for it.
And there are any number of 3/4 BAB, 3/4 casters in Pathfinder alone -- at least 3 arcane and 1 divine, not including the Eldritch Knight and Arcane Archer, which sort of make 5 arcane ones (taking into account the BAB hit to qualify). Plus there's the psychic warrior, being open content in the SRD.
There are no full BAB, 1/2 arcane casters at all that I'm aware of, either in Pathfinder or in the SRD.
Different reasons, actually. Arcane cleric would be 3/4 BAB, full casting -- a battle sorcerer, in other words. It's in the SRD, is open content, we can use that as-is or modify it as we see fit; no need to redesign a new class for it.
Nevertheless, some people might want an official Pathfinder version.
And there are any number of 3/4 BAB, 3/4 casters in Pathfinder alone -- at least 3 arcane and 1 divine, not including the Eldritch Knight and Arcane Archer, which sort of make 5 arcane ones (taking into account the BAB hit to qualify).
True, but it's not a base class.
Plus there's the psychic warrior, being open content in the SRD.
See: battle sorcerer.
There are no full BAB, 1/2 arcane casters at all that I'm aware of, either in Pathfinder or in the SRD.
Doesn't the Arcane Archer qualify?
Doesn't the Arcane Archer qualify?
Almost -- except that you're taking a hit to BAB to qualify, and you have to be an archer. If ArcArch had been sort of merged with EldK, with lower casting requirements than the EldKt, then I'd say we were A-OK (that's what I did for my homebrew game, but that doesn't do anything for 99.99999999999% of the gaming community). As it is, I see a glaring gap in classes waiting to be filled.
The Magus I built was an Elf (because to me the Magus is the ideal Elf) with a high Dex and Weapon Finesse.I have to say, that at least first level, he seemed to perform fairly well. My melee attacks were only off by one from the Barbarian. My damage was less, but only marginally because of the Barbarian's significantly higher Strength.
I'm trying to get my head around this bit and I'm not seeing it.
The magus is using weapon finesse.. so he's got something like a 1d6 weapon, possibly a 14STR so doing 1d6+2 on a hit or 5.5average.
The barbarian has around an 18-20STR, were he to have say a greatsword he'd do 2d6+7 or over double the magus on a hit.
Is the barbarian using a onehanded weapon as well??
I'm not knocking the magus (with this post) but just saying that when you're talking about a weapon finesse build you get hit for damage both on lack of strength and on the weapon's base damage itself.
That said, I do think that Elf is a nice race for the magus. I find it interesting that most people for low levels are making human magi... I think the need for feats is coming into play here though.
-James
The barbarian was using a double weapon (the orc double axe). Comparability of the damage we dealt had more to do that I was rolling well than the actual math, but any melee class is very susceptable to the roll of the dice. I was rolling well, and the occasional bit of magic that I was able to throw in helped me further. With the high Dex and the rolls I was getting, I went first in initiative in every combat. Will every combat with the Magus look like this? Probably not, but it was fun while it lasted and I look forward to see what kind of niftiness comes about for this class. It definitely reminds me of the 1ed and 2ed days with the multi-class elves.
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And what is the community asking for ? Because so far I saw people asking for a Duskblade v2, people asking for an arcane Paladin, people asking for a base class EK, people asking for a Hexblade v2...And all 4 of those things could be accomplished with a single full BAB/half-caster class -- exactly the class that the Magus isn't.
And I hope to see this class...in ultimate combat.
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And much closer to a 3/4 BAB than full.Ignore the three perfect examples to focus on one that you're still not selling well? (EldKt still gets that 4th attack, unlike the Magus, and gets higher-level spells to boot.)
The EK gets the 4th attack at level 20...in exchange for an additional 9th level spell. Sorry...but an extra 9th level spell trumps getting an extra attack at -15 to hit.
In anycase, yeah the magus spell list needs to be ramped up...a lot. Like getting giantform 1 and 2. I want the magus spell casting to be GOOD. He is in a bloody magic book so I want good magic damn it :) .
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Yep, I knew I would eventually offend someone, but here is my point if you already have more then one class doing, well at least somewhat similar things, to the what the magus does; the eldritch knight is, the arcane duelist is, the arcane archer is, and it's not to far a stretch to include the summoner, inquisitor, and other bards are too, what's the point. But, I'll fully admit this is play-test feedback not an opinion on whether the class is necessary or not. So, if you want me to just shut up I will, but I still stand by my opinion that the class is boring.
I knew full well that that post would offend, but that's never stopped anyone from posting before. Sorry if you where offended.
That's odd...
"I know I would offend people" "Sorry I offended"
Just an idea I thought I would toss out, and see what people thought.
What if Spellstrike read like this ?
Spellstrike (Su): Whenever a magus casts a spell with a range of touch from the magus spell list, he can deliver the spell through any weapon he is wielding as part of a melee attack. If successful, this attack deals its normal damage as well as the effects of the spell. You gain a bonus on all attack rolls with this weapon equal to the level of the spell held until the spell is discharged. This ability does not grant the magus a free melee attack—such attacks must be made normally. Alternatively, a magus can make a free touch attack with his free hand instead of delivering the spell through his weapon, as normal.
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Yep, I knew I would eventually offend someone, but here is my point if you already have more then one class doing, well at least somewhat similar things, to the what the magus does; the eldritch knight is, the arcane duelist is, the arcane archer is, and it's not to far a stretch to include the summoner, inquisitor, and other bards are too, what's the point. But, I'll fully admit this is play-test feedback not an opinion on whether the class is necessary or not. So, if you want me to just shut up I will, but I still stand by my opinion that the class is boring.
I knew full well that that post would offend, but that's never stopped anyone from posting before. Sorry if you where offended.
That's odd...
"I know I would offend people" "Sorry I offended"
I know, some one apologized on the internet...
0.o
And all 4 of those things could be accomplished with a single full BAB/half-caster class -- exactly the class that the Magus isn't.And I hope to see this class...in ultimate combat.Paizo has already announced that the magus is the last base class they're making in the foreseeable future. Unless things change and Paizo reconsiders its announced plans, there is no base class in Ultimate Combat.
That's why the arcane warrior fans are clamoring so loudly for that class. The magus is their last chance to get it.
(I still say Ultimate Combat should have a magus sub-class that's identical to the existing magus, but with a full BAB and a ranger spell progression. But I'm sure someone will drop in soon and explain that I'm not allowed to have fun things.)
Alternate archetypes (like the do in APG) don't seem to be willing to play around with things like BAB or spell progression. Or am I misinterpreting what you are asking for?
It's disappointing that future hardsplats won't have additional base classes. Perhaps a web supplement could cover the Arcane Paladin archetype that so many people seem to want covered?
Ultimately people who want the arcane paladin are going to be disappointed if we get an EK base class and people who want a EK base class are going to be disappointed if we get a Arcane Paladin base class. The only thing that will please both camps is if both archetypes are eventually covered in pathfinder official products.
Personally I think covering both (eventually) has some positives from a marketing perspective (2 classes can sell 2 books, base classes are good for word count - if you want filler). The problem is if the designers are getting bored with just doing classes all the time and would prefer to develop other concepts.
If you change tables like BAB and spell progression it is no longer a sub class. As it's not the same class with abilities changed. Its a whole new class that share the same ablilites.
Not a subclass.
Yep you called it because it's not a sub class. Your wanting a whole 2nd class that does the very same thing this one does with a diff BAB and spell progression. That is not a subclass.
I think the concept is worthwhile (1 configuration that has one progression and another progression that has a separate progression) I just wonder when modifications to a class create a whole new base class and what is simply a "Sub-class" and what really is a meaningful distinction between those concepts?
Basically it all comes down to semantics though, whether it's marketed as a base class or a sub-class it would still require x amount of word count and developer resources.
If the reluctance to add additional base classes is related to class design fatigue and market saturation then I could understand a reluctance to devote limited resources to a product you either don't think will sell books or that no longer interests you in a creative capacity.
I even wonder if you could design a base class that can choose a variable configuration at the beginning of the day.
Perhaps you can do some sort of arcane kata instead of spell prep (for lack of a better term) and you are an "arcane paladin" (full BAB, paladin casting) and if you want to be a eldritch knight the following day you do a different kata and now you are 3/4 BaB, Bard progression.
The flexibility to in effect rebuild your class once a day could make for a very exciting base class. In actual play it would probably be fiddly as hell and would take a huge page count but I think it could be a very interesting design choice.
Fixes for the Magus
1)Arcane Weapon at first level treat this as Arcane Bond this is needed for this class. It dose not hurt game balance to get a +5 weapon in the 16th level not 20th level.3)Spell Combat Should work like two-weapon fighting -2 to hit with both weapons if spells are light weapons. Improved and Grater Spell Combat should come at later levels. There are spells that give more than 1 touch per attack.
7) No spell list.The list needs to be up dated with every new spell use the Sorcerer/Wizard spell list so that the players do not get a DM that keeps new spells from players. This is very common in that if it is not printed by pathfinder then it can not be allowed.
The rest of class is good
+1
I think I gotta agree with you on at least half of these.....I think moving Arcane Weapon to first level, and reducing the penalty on Spell Combat solves most of the problems.
I still think that many of the Arcane need to be adjusted so that they function either 3+Int mod per day, or number of rounds per day, to improve staying power for the class.