Sadly, the low base attack will probably be a real problem for Spellstrike and Spell Combat in relation to the relative high ACs in Pathfinder.You are suggesting to raise the BAB of a class able to cast level 6 spells to Full? could (I restate it: COULD) be troublesome.
And remember, Full BAB means d10 HD.
I would suggest making the attack penalty half of what it is. -2, then -1, then 0.
Another solution, though still has problems, is to take from the Monk a little. Use Magus Caster level as BAB when using Spellstrike and similiar abilities when using the bonded weapon.
*sigh* Everything looks so fun about this class, except the one thing that would make me never play it...why, oh why, is it a prepared caster? ;_;
Another solution, though still has problems, is to take from the Monk a little. Use Magus Caster level as BAB when using Spellstrike and similiar abilities when using the bonded weapon.
Elegant. I like it.
As a side note (COMPLETELY OFF-TOPIC), Italian translators are screwed. In Italy, Wizard is Mago (from the first D&D in our country featuring wizards).
I wonder what they will find for Magus, poor fellows.
*sigh* Everything looks so fun about this class, except the one thing that would make me never play it...why, oh why, is it a prepared caster? ;_;
That struck me as odd as well. I would have thought a spontaneous caster would fit the fighter/mage better. At the very least, I think a subclass (ala Anti-Paladin) that is spontaneous instead would be nice.
Tomorrow I turn Koruvus into a Magus
Tomorrow night he takes on my players, yay!
I think it might be fun to restat General Avinash Jurrg from War of the River Kings as a Magus instead of a Bard. Of course, that's a ways off since we're only part way through Rivers Run Red. Perhaps I'll even have the final version of the Magus available before they meet him.
*sigh* Everything looks so fun about this class, except the one thing that would make me never play it...why, oh why, is it a prepared caster? ;_;
Yeah, I can agree with that some. Spontaneous makes more sense when you are trying to use spells in melee like this class. Might playtest it as is & with Bard spell casting.
Okey-doke. Not play-tested, but first impressions nonetheless:
BAB: medium - that's fine
Saves: Fort and Reflex saves should be swapped
Skill Ranks are fine.
Weapon and Armour Proficiency is fine.
Spells is fine in how it is presented.
Spellstrike needs more info. Does a spell cast involve a melee attack, or does the spell need to be cast and then attacked with next round. The latter option is frankly stupid.
Spell Combat looks very cool. The penalties seem adequate but I would hope there are feats that lessen these.
Magus Arcana depends on what is chosen:
Arcane Accuracy is bog standard, and useful in certain circs, but I would like it to last longer.
Broad Study is good, and has the right prereqs.
Concentrate is worth it for Spell Combat, but limited in uses.
Critical Strike seems overly complex and that it is based on a touch attack after a successful melee attack is confusing. The prereqs are ok.
Dispelling Strike is perfect.
Empowered Magic is also perfect.
Familiar is fine.
Hasted Assault is fine, but it would be nice to divide duration between allies.
Maneuver Mastery is fine.
Maximised Magic is fine.
Quickened Magic is fine.
Reflection is perfect.
Silent Magic is fine.
Spell Shield needs to last longer, like Arcane Accuracy.
Still Magic is fine.
Arcane Weapon is perfect.
Bonus feats is fine.
Medium Armour is perfect.
Improved Spell Combat is perfect. It remediates the question I had above.
Fighter Training is fine.
Heavy Armour is perfect.
Greater Spell Combat is perfect.
Counterstrike is fine, but I'd like an attempt (however unlikely) to disrupt that spell.
Weapon Bond is perfect.
True Magus is perfect.
I do not have time to go through the spell list, and I see that others have already made a start so I shall leave it to them.
Another solution, though still has problems, is to take from the Monk a little. Use Magus Caster level as BAB when using Spellstrike and similiar abilities when using the bonded weapon.
Elegant. I like it.
As a side note (COMPLETELY OFF-TOPIC), Italian translators are screwed. In Italy, Wizard is Mago (from the first D&D in our country featuring wizards).
I wonder what they will find for Magus, poor fellows.
Perhaps Bagatello, from the Tarot card? Though that fellow is probably more of a Bard.
I had a thought.
For me, the most successful core classes are ones that can be re-invented within the rules or support a large number of character concepts; i.e., a Cleric of Desna is fundamentally different from a Cleric of Calistria, though they could share the same alignment. Similarly, a Half-orc drum bard is different from a Dwarven trombone player.
One way this happens that has crunch aspects is through spell choice. The spells that a magic user has color their nature as much as appearance and background, at least for the players.
With such a limited spell list, how can you make Magi with fundamentally different mechanical feels?
*sigh* Everything looks so fun about this class, except the one thing that would make me never play it...why, oh why, is it a prepared caster? ;_;
Because he is a fighter mage, not a fighter/sorcerer. We have plenty of spontaneous caster as is. I for one am glad he stayed a book carrying spellcaster.
*sigh* Everything looks so fun about this class, except the one thing that would make me never play it...why, oh why, is it a prepared caster? ;_;
Agreed, the flavour seems a bit off as a prepared caster.
The other thing i'd like to see would be the ability to summon / generate a weapon of pure magic instead of necessarily imbuing a normal weapon with power. - possibly as a Magus Arcana or when you get Arcane Weapon? The downside would be that you couldn't then make use of magical weapons, however this could be fixed if a mechanic to "consume" a magical weapon and transfer its properties to the summoned weapon were included. I just think this'd be really cool and add some unique class flavour.
(apologies for the british spelling)
This, honestly, is exactly what my Girlfiend and I were looking for. (Yes, I did spell it that way intentionally.) I've wanted a nearly seamless spell-warrior ever since I saw the Bladesinger back in 3.0, but I've never found one that felt right. She's the same way. Every attempt I've seen has leaned too far on one side or another, yet this feels right for the first time. I like it being an Int based prepared caster, because it feels like the Bladesinger to me, and that's what I was longing for.
With such a limited spell list, how can you make Magi with fundamentally different mechanical feels?I think that we're really not meant to be poking the boundaries of this one too closely. The Magus fits into a pretty narrow niche, but one that was prominent back in the 1e-2e days and that 3.X never really addressed. The Eldritch Knight was an excellent try, but it suffers from the problem that, well, you can't be an Eldritch Knight until you're 7th level, meaning you can't actually play the concept from the word 'go.'
That explains some things (the fighter/wizard, I take it). I would have loooved this class a few years ago but I seem to have lost interest in playing Jedi, unless they felt completely new. Something that happens with mixed classes is that they can end up losing some of the variety of the separate classes they came from. Though I loved the Beguiler, I think the Sorcerer and the Rogue are now individually interesting enough that I don't need a blend. If the class came with a package of variants a la APG, I would be all over it.
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Hmmm... I would rename some class abilities/magus arcana, because they feel/sound a bit misleading to me.
'Spell Combat' might work better as 'Arcane Combatant'. 'Broad Study'... why not 'Versatile Spellcaster' or something similar to it? And 'Concentrate' could be 'Deeper Concentration' or 'Focused Concentration'?
Just some thoughts...
That struck me as odd as well. I would have thought a spontaneous caster would fit the fighter/mage better. At the very least, I think a subclass (ala Anti-Paladin) that is spontaneous instead would be nice.
Probably tp distinquish it from the PHB 2 class Duskblade. Which is very similar mechanically to Magus (except Spontaneous and full BAB and 5th level spells not 3/4th BAB, prepared, and 6th level spells).
I have to admit that I'm not crazy about having a whole passel of different swift action abilities, too. The monk variants in the APG suffered from this syndrome, too (hey! you can do something neat with your ki points...assuming you haven't already used one for an extra attack).
I assume all Magi will have taken Arcane Strike and will be using it on almost all rounds (unless they specifically know they are going to use that Swift action for something else, such as a Quickened Spell). This Arcana doesn't work if you use Arcane Strike and you can't predict when you will be rolling a crit, so basically, I don't see anyone taking the Arcana. Something that is never picked is, IMO a flaw in design.
I'd like to avoid this as well. It made the playtest inquisitor a total pain to play... luckily it was fixed (somewhat) in the final version.
If there are more than two potential swift actions, you increase the number of decisions per player. It breaks the rhythm of the game, even if you're going as fast as you can, onlooking players and the GM just kind of expect a standard + move or full action. When you have performed those and you're still deliberating on the swift action, people get antsy.
I don't like it when that happens. YMMV.
Another point, too - you have magus as a prepared caster. While I think that's a massive mistake, there's another related to it...it has the same number of spells per day as the bard, and more per day than the wizard for the spell levels they share. Spontaneous casters are supposed to have more per day than prepared, no? And even if not, the class that's stabby and casty shouldn't have more spells than the one that's just casty.
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Another point, too - you have magus as a prepared caster. While I think that's a massive mistake, there's another related to it...it has the same number of spells per day as the bard, and more per day than the wizard for the spell levels they share. Spontaneous casters are supposed to have more per day than prepared, no? And even if not, the class that's stabby and casty shouldn't have more spells than the one that's just casty.
Like the poor, weak, unplayable wizards can't take another hit! Come on, it's not like every wizard player on the boards can take on a magus of the same level and still win! That would be ridiculous!
Like the poor, weak, unplayable wizards can't take another hit! Come on, it's not like every wizard player on the boards can take on a magus of the same level and still win! That would be ridiculous!
Um...ok, I don't know how that's relevant. I never said wizards were weak, just that a specifically wizard/fighter hybrid getting more spells per day than a full wizard is wrong.
Another point, too - you have magus as a prepared caster. While I think that's a massive mistake, there's another related to it...it has the same number of spells per day as the bard, and more per day than the wizard for the spell levels they share. Spontaneous casters are supposed to have more per day than prepared, no? And even if not, the class that's stabby and casty shouldn't have more spells than the one that's just casty.
I did an analysis of the Magus vis-a-vis the Eldritch Knight in another thread in this subforum. The upshot of the Magus's spells is that she can just barely keep pace with a Wizard specialist at the levels the Magus has. Considering that her spells are lower level and she devours them to fuel her class abilities, I think it was a good idea to give her plenty of slots.
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Another point, too - you have magus as a prepared caster. While I think that's a massive mistake, there's another related to it...it has the same number of spells per day as the bard, and more per day than the wizard for the spell levels they share. Spontaneous casters are supposed to have more per day than prepared, no? And even if not, the class that's stabby and casty shouldn't have more spells than the one that's just casty.I did an analysis of the Magus vis-a-vis the Eldritch Knight in another thread in this subforum. The upshot of the Magus's spells is that she can just barely keep pace with a Wizard specialist at the levels the Magus has. Considering that her spells are lower level and she devours them to fuel her class abilities, I think it was a good idea to give her plenty of slots.
Can a Magus become an Eldritch Knight? Straight Magus, that is?
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Like the poor, weak, unplayable wizards can't take another hit! Come on, it's not like every wizard player on the boards can take on a magus of the same level and still win! That would be ridiculous!Um...ok, I don't know how that's relevant. I never said wizards were weak, just that a specifically wizard/fighter hybrid getting more spells per day than a full wizard is wrong.
I knew it, I should have put a smiley face in that post.
I was commenting on the fact there are people on this board who believe that wizards are the "God-Mode" of the game. I don't like that at all, and see anything that puts a class even slightly above the wizard as a good thing. Apologies for confusion.
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Can a Magus become an Eldritch Knight? Straight Magus, that is?Another point, too - you have magus as a prepared caster. While I think that's a massive mistake, there's another related to it...it has the same number of spells per day as the bard, and more per day than the wizard for the spell levels they share. Spontaneous casters are supposed to have more per day than prepared, no? And even if not, the class that's stabby and casty shouldn't have more spells than the one that's just casty.I did an analysis of the Magus vis-a-vis the Eldritch Knight in another thread in this subforum. The upshot of the Magus's spells is that she can just barely keep pace with a Wizard specialist at the levels the Magus has. Considering that her spells are lower level and she devours them to fuel her class abilities, I think it was a good idea to give her plenty of slots.
After 7th level they can.
Great fluff!
My problem is that it needs some early entries, specially in the selfbuffy and blasty departments.
Something as having:
4th Cone of cold
5th Giantshape I
6th Giantshape II, Polar Ray
Humbly,
Yawar
I knew it, I should have put a smiley face in that post.
I was commenting on the fact there are people on this board who believe that wizards are the "God-Mode" of the game. I don't like that at all, and see anything that puts a class even slightly above the wizard as a good thing. Apologies for confusion.
Ah, no worries. Although putting something above the god mode class seems like a bad idea - you just end up with a new god mode class then. >_> <_<
That said..I really want to like the class. I really do...and I mostly do like it, but prepared seems so wrong for this kind of class, and giving them more spells than the prepared full casters get...that's just...conceptually wrong. If it were spontaneous, that progression would be great (same as bard and inquisitor, and 1 below the spontaneous full casters on per day at any given level), but as it stands, the flavor is fundamentally wrong to me on two levels.
I'm really hoping that all the other people who think prepared is a terrible fit for this, especially with more spells per day than a full wizard, will chime in and the devs will see that and either switch it to spontaneous (yay!!!) or cut the spells per day down to at most 4/day at each level (much less yay, but at least makes sense next to the full caster then).
Can a Magus become an Eldritch Knight? Straight Magus, that is?Another point, too - you have magus as a prepared caster. While I think that's a massive mistake, there's another related to it...it has the same number of spells per day as the bard, and more per day than the wizard for the spell levels they share. Spontaneous casters are supposed to have more per day than prepared, no? And even if not, the class that's stabby and casty shouldn't have more spells than the one that's just casty.I did an analysis of the Magus vis-a-vis the Eldritch Knight in another thread in this subforum. The upshot of the Magus's spells is that she can just barely keep pace with a Wizard specialist at the levels the Magus has. Considering that her spells are lower level and she devours them to fuel her class abilities, I think it was a good idea to give her plenty of slots.
Yes, but I don't think I would usually recommend it (and you'll at least want to take Magus8 for Improved Spell Combat first). The Magus specials are much better than the EK's, although the increased attack bonus is a help, and it does give you a fourth iterative (in the end, the increased attack bonus only manages to cancel out Greater Spell Combat though, assuming you're mostly using Spell Combat at that point).
I knew it, I should have put a smiley face in that post.
I was commenting on the fact there are people on this board who believe that wizards are the "God-Mode" of the game. I don't like that at all, and see anything that puts a class even slightly above the wizard as a good thing. Apologies for confusion.
Ah, no worries. Although putting something above the god mode class seems like a bad idea - you just end up with a new god mode class then. >_> <_<
That said..I really want to like the class. I really do...and I mostly do like it, but prepared seems so wrong for this kind of class, and giving them more spells than the prepared full casters get...that's just...conceptually wrong. If it were spontaneous, that progression would be great (same as bard and inquisitor, and 1 below the spontaneous full casters on per day at any given level), but as it stands, the flavor is fundamentally wrong to me on two levels.
I'm really hoping that all the other people who think prepared is a terrible fit for this, especially with more spells per day than a full wizard, will chime in and the devs will see that and either switch it to spontaneous (yay!!!) or cut the spells per day down to at most 4/day at each level (much less yay, but at least makes sense next to the full caster then).
They don't have more spells per day than a specialist wizard, even if we restrict ourselves to the levels at which the magus has spells.
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Well some thought from an intial look. I will be using a bunch of these this week as one of my game is about to head through a githyanki base so this is like the perfect time to test it. In anycase, it seems AWEFUL weak. Too many of the arcana work off swift actions...which means you can't use arcane strike with it. That is a bad bad thing. The spell list is pretty pathetic. The bards as a 6 level caster gets some divine spells tossed in and higher level spells as lower level spells. The magus is a straight up level for level wiz/sorc nerfed list. So I have access to all weapons but if I'm reading the spell combat right, I can't use this class ability if I wanna use two handed weapons?!? Or TWF?!? Might as well give them proficency in all one handed weapons only at that point. No option to use a shield also kinda blows. They are a prepared caster...they should cap at 4 spells cast per spell level...not 5. That's for spont casters. Spellstrike is kinda...umm...boring. Yeah I can add my weapon damage to a spell by giving up a touch attack for a regular melee attack...sounds like a bad trade usually to me. Overall I'm kinda underwhelmed by this class. So things I would like fixed...in the order I would like fixed...
1)Spell list. On par with the bard's.
2)Spell combat that works with all combat styles.
3)A REAL spellstrike.
4)Reduced spells per day.
5)Fix the arcanas
edit: damn it forgot point 5 :P .
They don't have more spells per day than a specialist wizard, even if we restrict ourselves to the levels at which the magus has spells.
True, but even then they have the same number but aren't a full caster - previous classes like that have had 1 less than their "full caster" comparison (bard has 1 less than sorc, inquisitor has 1 less than oracle). Plus, they have the same number as both of those current spont casters, which also breaks the mold of spont casters getting more per day than prepared.
And ignoring the spells per day thing for the moment...at the very least, I'd hope there's a sidebar or something there to allow people to play a spontaneous one. Especially after having the arcane duelist in the APG, to then come out with the fighter/mage combo people have been wanting for a long time and make it basically do its job better...it's sorely disappointing, almost taunting. And yes, it's a fighter/mage whether it's spontaneous or prepared - mage doesn't just mean wizard.
I see the spells per day as ok. I know it is more than the Wizard per day per spell level, BUT they are expending slots like mad to power abilities, which does put them on par with Bards for the spell power. Bards get Bardic Performance, which is a slew of virtual spells. I think the Magus is just fine when looked at from that point of view.
And ignoring the spells per day thing for the moment...at the very least, I'd hope there's a sidebar or something there to allow people to play a spontaneous one. Especially after having the arcane duelist in the APG, to then come out with the fighter/mage combo people have been wanting for a long time and make it basically do its job better...it's sorely disappointing, almost taunting. And yes, it's a fighter/mage whether it's spontaneous or prepared - mage doesn't just mean wizard.
I respectfuly disagree, the Arcane Duelist is more of a trickster than a fighter, it resots to more subtle aspects of magic while the Magus takes a more direct aproach. Its like comparing Fighter and Ranger.
Humbly,
Yawar
I respectfuly disagree, the Arcane Duelist is more of a trickster than a fighter, it resots to more subtle aspects of magic while the Magus takes a more direct aproach. Its like comparing Fighter and Ranger.
Humbly,
Yawar
Hence doing its job better. The arcane duelist trades in some of that stuff for more combat stuff, remember, and until now was probably the closest to "single class fighter mage" officially existing. To have that role pretty much completely taken over, by a prepared caster with the same number of spells per day as the bard (breaking the "spontaneous gets more per day" precedent) is like a slap in the face.
They don't have more spells per day than a specialist wizard, even if we restrict ourselves to the levels at which the magus has spells.True, but even then they have the same number but aren't a full caster - previous classes like that have had 1 less than their "full caster" comparison (bard has 1 less than sorc, inquisitor has 1 less than oracle). Plus, they have the same number as both of those current spont casters, which also breaks the mold of spont casters getting more per day than prepared.
And ignoring the spells per day thing for the moment...at the very least, I'd hope there's a sidebar or something there to allow people to play a spontaneous one. Especially after having the arcane duelist in the APG, to then come out with the fighter/mage combo people have been wanting for a long time and make it basically do its job better...it's sorely disappointing, almost taunting. And yes, it's a fighter/mage whether it's spontaneous or prepared - mage doesn't just mean wizard.
One balancing factor for the spells per day is that they don't really get early access spells like Bard or Summoner.
Here's an idea for Spontaneous Casting--I know you were eager to play a spontaneous magus, so you can try it out and let me know how it went:
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Flash Magus Archetype:
The Flash Magus is less about study than his ordinary counterpart and all about the style and excitement of both magic and combat.
Spellcasting: The Flash Magus uses Charisma instead of Intelligence to determine her DCs and spells per day. Instead of preparing spells from a spellbook, the Flash Magus chooses a number of spells known from the Magus spell list equal to the number a Bard of her level would know.
New Magus Arcana--Flash Magus's Flair: The Flash Magus's mixture of blades and spells is both beautiful and terrifying to her foes. When using Spell Combat to cast a spell on and attack the same foe, she can make an Intimidate check as a Swift action.
Generally like what I've seen, but noticed something that to me at least seems like a bad design flaw.
Critical Strike (Su): Whenever a magus with this magus
arcana scores a critical hit with a melee weapon, he may
cast a spell with a range of touch as a swift action, then
make a touch attack against the target of the critical hit
as a free action. The magus can use this ability once per
day. The magus must be at least 12th level before selecting
this arcana.I assume all Magi will have taken Arcane Strike and will be using it on almost all rounds (unless they specifically know they are going to use that Swift action for something else, such as a Quickened Spell). This Arcana doesn't work if you use Arcane Strike and you can't predict when you will be rolling a crit, so basically, I don't see anyone taking the Arcana. Something that is never picked is, IMO a flaw in design.
Respectfully,
BrunoDepends on the build. I can easily see a crit-heavy weapon wielder (Rapier, Kukri, et. al.) not using arcane strike consistently and using his swift actions later in the round for defensive Arcane Shields, quickened spells, or immediate actions. It is an option, and I like options a great deal, whether they are optimized or not.
A similar situation comes up with Spellstrike compared to Spell combat at low levels. Why would you ever use the Spell Combat at low levels when Spellstrike is so much more effective? Because Spellstrike targets the enemy you hit with your weapon with a touch spell, while Spell Combat can target any viable target with ranged or non-ranged spell, or even area of effect spell. The option to be able to hit someone with a sword (and perhaps using arcane strike, a combat maneuver, poison, or other options) and then follow it up with a lightning bolt that can include the target of your weapon or a group of magic missiles at someone menacing your cleric is a good choice to be able to have in a deadly situation.
Spellstrike also takes two rounds to pull off if you don't use Spell Combat, which is a significant investment of actions.
One balancing factor for the spells per day is that they don't really get early access spells like Bard or Summoner.
Here's an idea for Spontaneous Casting--I know you were eager to play a spontaneous magus, so you can try it out and let me know how it went:
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Flash Magus Archetype:
The Flash Magus is less about study than his ordinary counterpart and all about the style and excitement of both magic and combat.
Spellcasting: The Flash Magus uses Charisma instead of Intelligence to determine her DCs and spells per day. Instead of preparing spells from a spellbook, the Flash Magus chooses a number of spells known from the Magus spell list equal to the number a Bard of her level would know.
New Magus Arcana--Flash Magus's Flair: The Flash Magus's mixture of blades and spells is both beautiful and terrifying to her foes. When using Spell Combat to cast a spell on and attack the same foe, she can make an Intimidate check...
I'd love to try it out, but I'm not currently in a game and the nearest PFS place is a 30 minute drive (and I have no job at the moment, so gas costs are prohibitive). Not to mention I couldn't play it in PFS anyway.
But thank you for illustrating how mindbogglingly easy it would be to not leave the spontaneous casting out. A simple sidebar in the official book (so that it's legal in PFS and more likely to be accepted than "some guy on the forums said do it this way!" in home games) would take care of that problem. It still basically makes the arcane duelist not worth the paper it's printed on, but at least those of us that like it (which seems to be more than like prepared, judging by the comments about it) have something to turn to.
Hence doing its job better. The arcane duelist trades in some of that stuff for more combat stuff, remember, and until now was probably the closest to "single class fighter mage" officially existing. To have that role pretty much completely taken over, by a prepared caster with the same number of spells per day as the bard (breaking the "spontaneous gets more per day" precedent) is like a slap in the face.I respectfuly disagree, the Arcane Duelist is more of a trickster than a fighter, it resots to more subtle aspects of magic while the Magus takes a more direct aproach. Its like comparing Fighter and Ranger.
Humbly,
Yawar
The Arcane Duelist is a more combat proactive Bard, its buffing ability put it on par with the Magus in raw melee combat capability.
In a duel the Magus would probably win, but an Arcane Duelist is far better at solving non combat problems and an Arcane Duelist is better team player than the Magus.
Humbly,
Yawar
PSD: Yes, I am saying that the Arcane Duelist is worse at dueling.
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But thank you for illustrating how mindbogglingly easy it would be to not leave the spontaneous casting out. A simple sidebar in the official book (so that it's legal in PFS and more likely to be accepted than "some guy on the forums said do it this way!" in home games) would take care of that problem. It still basically makes the arcane duelist not worth the paper it's printed on, but at least those of us that like it (which seems to be more than like prepared, judging by the comments about it) have something to turn to.
DV, you've said several times here that you think the prepared caster choice was a mistake, and that you think a spontaneous caster would have felt better. Can you go a little more in depth as to why you think that? Being someone who plays both spontaneous and prepared caster classes equally, I personally don't see why one would just naturally feel more right than the other in this case - so as someone who feels strongly about the subject, can ou explain why you think spontaneous caster would have been a better choice? Just my opinion, but I don't think a varient could be made very easily either, as for every prepared-spell progression, there's a different (slower) spontaneous progression. If you're giving a spontaneous caster the same progression as a prepared caster, there are really very few reasons to play the prepared caster.
I equally don't entirely understand (but I'm always open to discussion, mind) why there's the amount of uproar that there is about the Magus being an "open-hand" fighter. Spells have somatic components, no? Why should this class be exempt from them? Why would a Magus be able to cast a spell that requires a somatic component with a big honking shield in her hand? If a Magus can do that, why not a Wizard? Use of Still Spell aside, I don't see any problem with the concept that a dual-weapon wielder or a sword and boarder simply can't be a Magus. It's a fighting style that requires a free hand. That's just what it is. Somebody show me what the problem is. Please?
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I equally don't entirely understand (but I'm always open to discussion, mind) why there's the amount of uproar that there is about the Magus being an "open-hand" fighter. Spells have somatic components, no? Why should this class be exempt from them? Why would a Magus be able to cast a spell that requires a somatic component with a big honking shield in her hand? If a Magus can do that, why not a Wizard? Use of Still Spell aside, I don't see any problem with the concept that a dual-weapon wielder or a sword and boarder simply can't be a Magus. It's a fighting style that requires a free hand. That's just what it is. Somebody show me what the problem is. Please?
Because the wizard CAN do that...as can the cleric, paladin, druid and rangers. Assuming a light shield. Lights shields are considered to have the hands free for somatic components according to Jason. Which I do realize makes the buckler kinda obsolete in a lot of ways...but that is the reason that I was given for why somatic weaponry was not included in PF.
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Because the wizard CAN do that...as can the cleric, paladin, druid and rangers. Assuming a light shield. Lights shields are considered to have the hands free for somatic components according to Jason. Which I do realize makes the buckler kinda obsolete in a lot of ways...but that is the reason that I was given for why somatic weaponry was not included in PF.
But I wasn't assuming a light shield, I was assuming a "big honking shield", which I guess in game parlance is a heavy wooden or steel shield of the type most commonly used by sword and boarders.
Let's look at the meat of my argument, though, and take the case of a guy dual-wielding daggers. Why should that guy get to cast spells with somatic components while both daggers are drawn and in hand?
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Because the wizard CAN do that...as can the cleric, paladin, druid and rangers. Assuming a light shield. Lights shields are considered to have the hands free for somatic components according to Jason. Which I do realize makes the buckler kinda obsolete in a lot of ways...but that is the reason that I was given for why somatic weaponry was not included in PF.But I wasn't assuming a light shield, I was assuming a "big honking shield", which I guess in game parlance is a heavy wooden or steel shield of the type most commonly used by sword and boarders.
Let's look at the meat of my argument, though, and take the case of a guy dual-wielding daggers. Why should that guy get to cast spells with somatic components while both daggers are drawn and in hand?
Heavy shield can be used by NO casters in PF...even paladins, clerics and druids who don't have ASF...and really they should be able to. And as for the TWF...why can't he?!? Honestly a TWF ranger should be able to use his spell damn it. Honestly somatic weaponry as a feat should have been at least included in core because that feat was made so classes could you know...work. Better still, it should be a core ability period.
DV, you've said several times here that you think the prepared caster choice was a mistake, and that you think a spontaneous caster would have felt better. Can you go a little more in depth as to why you think that? Being someone who plays both spontaneous and prepared caster classes equally, I personally don't see why one would just naturally feel more right than the other in this case - so as someone who feels strongly about the subject, can ou explain why you think spontaneous caster would have been a better choice? Just my opinion, but I don't think a varient could be made very easily either, as for every prepared-spell progression, there's a different (slower) spontaneous progression. If you're giving a spontaneous caster the same progression as a prepared caster, there are really very few reasons to play the prepared caster.
Sure. Lemme do it in bullet points so it's easier to read.
1) Thematically, prepared casting of the arcane variety is all about study, meticulous study of books to make sure you get the rituals down perfectly and so on, whereas spontaneous is about naturally having that spark, be it from magic in the blood, pacts with some power, or whatever. Now...who do you think is more likely to have the time to learn fighting alongside magic - the one that has to study for hours on end, every day, for years and years, and make sure to get every bit of a ritual right so that it can be released quickly, or the one that just naturally can do it without all that study?
2) Again thematically, for a warrior that's in the middle of fighting up close, thinking about all those rituals, the exact right way to move your hand and so on, is going to be a lot more of a distraction than the warrior that can just will magic into happening naturally...to the extent that someone devoting enough time to learning wizardry almost certainly wouldn't want to get that close.
3) Mechanically, it introduces...problems... There are several core assumptions in the system when it comes to magic, from 3e to 3.5 and now PF. One of those is that spontaneous casters get more spells per day than prepared, because that's one of their advantages over the flexibility of having so many more spells known (in practice, specialist wizards end up with just as many spells per day usually because of the earlier access to spell levels...which also makes no sense to me but isn't relevant to this case). Giving a prepared-casting magus the same number of spells per day as the bard is effectively taking that upside away from spontaneous casting, and simultaneous makes no sense when compared to the wizard. The wizard studies constantly, focuses everything they have into magic, and gets a maximum (before bonus spells) of 4/day of each level, 5 if a specialist (but still someone focused solely on magic). The magus, who splits their focus between magic and fighting, who somehow has the time to train in stabbing things, casting spells that don't come naturally to them, and wearing armor while doing this...gets 5/day of each spell level? It matches the bard and inquisitor in spells per day...but both of those are spontaneous casters, and have 1 spell less per day than their respective primary caster classes (sorcerer and oracle). It'd be sort of like if a new variant bard came out that suddenly had 7/day of every level, except even moreso, because the magus' spell list is much closer to (if still not as expansive as) the wizard's than the bard's is to the sorcerer's.
4) To turn this line around:
If you're giving a spontaneous caster the same progression as a prepared caster, there are really very few reasons to play the prepared caster.
If you're giving a prepared caster the same spells per day as a spontaneous caster, there are really very few reasons to play a spontaneous caster. Go to any optimizer (well, 99.999% of them) and they'll tell you that the wizard is stronger than the sorcerer. Why? Well, for one thing, the sorcerer can't duplicate the wizard's chief advantages (variety of spells known and earlier access to them) without a whole lot of outside help and gold being spent on higher-level scrolls...but a wizard can duplicate a sorcerer's chief advantages (more spells per day, spells ready when you need them without foreknowledge, and easier application of metamagic) fairly easily, and almost always does (scribe scroll is free - that knocks down both more spells per day and spells without foreknowledge, and costs half of what it costs a sorcerer to buy for the same scroll, plus if they take arcane bond that gives them a spontaneous cast of any spell in their entire book, and metamagic rods are a great investment regardless - they don't even cost a higher level slot like sorcerer metamagic does). It comes down to taste...and if you prefer spontaneous, it tastes kinda sour to know that you're always disadvantaged (even your casting stat is less useful).
I'm sure more reasons will come to me, too, but that's off the top of my head.
Also...
Just my opinion, but I don't think a varient could be made very easily either, as for every prepared-spell progression, there's a different (slower) spontaneous progression.
I don't see how you come to this conclusion. Yes, there are slower spontaneous progressions, but the magus is already using a spontaneous progression for access and spells per day - it's exactly the same as the bard and inquisitor use. A variant would be ridiculously easy - to the tune of a single entry somewhere in the class description like there is for deityless paladins and clerics: "Sometimes, a person gifted with magic in the blood is drawn to the path of the magi. In these cases, the magi does not prepare spells ahead of time, but instead may cast them spontaneously from a limited list of spells known. Use the bard's table of spells known on pg. XX of the Pathfinder Core Rulebook for these magi." It could also be put in a sidebar on one of the pages in the magus entry and include the small table, or even be offered as an archetype somewhere else in the book (along with a few other alternate abilities to keep it in line with other archetype offerings).
Okay, I'm going to have to convince my upcoming 3.5/Pathfinder mixed GM to let me test this class out. I like gi... I mean magus classes. Personally this seems to plant both a sword and spell into the face of now ye'old duskbladey-people.
As to Prepared Caster vs Spontaneous Caster (with full list access or spells know). First is the use of research by player's to add new spell to the list (with GM oversight). Hopefully this would be allowed like it is for the Wizard. Also if he prepares like a Wizard then he can leave slots free through the day to drop in stuff with a few minutes of warning. , make it clear he can do the research and mid-day spell prep like a Wizard can.
Also we don't know how big the final allowed list is going to be for the Magus.
Critical Strike: is the spell being cast limited to spells with a casting time of at most a standard action?
Weapon Bond: can the Magus use this ability to make one ranged throw attack per round with his weapon during a full-attack action?
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Sadly, the low base attack will probably be a real problem for Spellstrike and Spell Combat in relation to the relative high ACs in Pathfinder.
You are suggesting to raise the BAB of a class able to cast level 6 spells to Full? could (I restate it: COULD) be troublesome.
And remember, Full BAB means d10 HD.
And it should also have 9th level spells and three good saves. Afterall, it only makes sense. :-p
Seriously though, even if the final Magus did somehow manage to get a hold of a full BAB I would house rule it back down to 3/4.