That said, I am growing slightly concerned about the aggressive/confrontational nature of the roleplay. It's something that most adventuring parties go through, but they usually gain a mutual understanding of each other and grow together from the experience. I am slightly concerned that that's not what's happening here on all fronts - but that remains to be seen, we are, after all, 2nd level. By all means, carry on - but do let's try to not become so dysfunctional that we actually can't function, eh?
Also, remember you bumped us up to 2nd level to make us ready for the next encounter after skipping over some of the sewers, which is fine, but cuts down on some of the IC "getting to know you," rubbing-off-the-sharp-edges time. Strictly by actual in-game XPs, we're most likely still first level as far as time spent learning to work as a group.
There are two in-character reasons why Hardin did what he did.
1) He had to give Freya the choice about what to do with the children. By having us show up with the prisoners after she's stashed them at the safehouse, we've taken that choice from her.
2) He had to give Sarien the opportunity to do the right thing. Or, in this case, do the wrong thing. It's a calculation on his part - he is pretty sure that Sarien is about one stern look from Tao away from sliding back into unconsciousness, and he DID hear Tao back his position.
Philosophically, one of the things that Hardin believes in - and believes in so thoroughly that he doesn't understand that it's not obvious - is that people get choices in this world, and those choices MATTER.
Both Grib and Elgar made choices to stop fighting. If they hadn't, Hardin would've left them dead. You'll notice that in the fight were we didn't take prisoners, none of THEM accepted a surrender offer. But choices matter; it's one of the principles that defines Good in his eyes.
Not only do those choices matter, but sometimes, you don't get a flaming notice in letters 200 feet high saying a given choice is important. It's best to treat all of those choices as if they matter.
Hardin has a read on Freya. Wounded kid lashing out at anything with quasi-parental authority. He believes the right thing to do with her is to be kind, to be supportive, and to give her choices and make it clear that if she makes a choice, he's not going to overrule it.
Hardin has a read on Tao. Tao gets there by different means, but they seem to have compatible ethical positions.
Hardin has almost read on Rauno.
Hardin's read on Sarien, in re interaction, is that Sarien is greatly inconvenienced by leaving people alive when there's a choice to do so. He doesn't seem to be a cold blooded murderer.
He really doesn't know why Sarien is in all this. It certainly can't be for the money - there isn't any.
I would enjoy a scene with either Freya or Sarien that doesn't turn into "Mock the uptight religious dude". Not saying the mockery should stop. But a break from it every now and then would be good - hell, even a conversation or two that didn't turn into an argument would be nice.
In character, Hardin will be meditating for guidance at the Temple.
A question about Freya's last post:
In the information I have available (the Pathfinder Wiki), I can find no mention of Iomedean Hellknights - there may be lay followers, but I cannot find evidence of priests of Iomedae in the order. Indeed, one of the key phrases on Iomedae's writeup is "Iomedae does not associate or parley with fiends or evil deities."
So, do Iomedean priests serve with the Hellknights? I was very much under the impression that this was not the case.
In the information I have available (the Pathfinder Wiki), I can find no mention of Iomedean Hellknights - there may be lay followers, but I cannot find evidence of priests of Iomedae in the order. Indeed, one of the key phrases on Iomedae's writeup is "Iomedae does not associate or parley with fiends or evil deities."
So, do Iomedean priests serve with the Hellknights? I was very much under the impression that this was [b]not/b] the case.
I think it's something I picked up on the messageboards, in one of the many paladin/lawful-good type of debates. I'm pretty sure I read that LN Hellknights can be followers of Iomedae, focusing on her Lawful aspect and the conviction that keeping order is better for the majority of the people than stirring up chaos in a rebellion against the LE government.
I'll do a search or two and see if I can find it. If not, we'll consider it a bit of misinformation Freya has picked up between her parents and the Asmodean sisterhood, neither of which put a great emphasis on a liberal education.
And you'll notice she has no ranks in Knowledge (religion). :)
EDIT: This post by Wes Schneider is basically what I've seen.
Hellknights were created to fall into a uncomfortable, gray moral area. At their core, the mandate of the Hellknights is to spread law and justice, to quell threats against civilization, and discipline themselves as paragons of absolute order. All of this meshes well with the sensibilities of paladins. How they get there, however, might raise some paladins eyebrows. Hellknights model their hierarchy off the unquestioning discipline and severity of the multiverse's most effective military order: Hell. Their signifiers summon the denizens of Hell to battle against, causing every armiger to face devils as part of their training, with the reasoning that if one faces and defeats the warriors of the Pit, what fear can the soldiers of the mortal world hold? They do not worship Hell, Asmodeus, the archfiends, or any other infernal nobility - such are merely effective tools to a absolute end. Hellknights don't believe in torture and undo suffering, but they hold mercy as a weakness and exact law for the betterment of all, not based on the circumstances of an individual. No Hellknight seeks the death of innocents (though their feelings on the acceptability of such casualties might differentiate those of varying alignments within the orders), and the LG members of the group hold a valued place in curbing the zealotry of some of the group's more extremist and tenacious members. Certain orders also hold greater tendencies toward certain alignments, with the Order of the Scourge trending more toward LG while the Order of the God Claw leans more toward LE - fortunately, the various orders are largely autonomous. In each group, though, Hellknights who merely want to help their fellow man and Hellknights who wish to mercilessly enforce the rule or law exist, and both types aid in the goals of the greater order while being ruled over by the group's own vast code of order.
So, with all this in mind. Paladins can certainly fit into an order that seeks to improve the world for civilized people, especially when such an order presents greater opportunities and effectiveness - to one's mind - than a knight questing solo. (Even in the real world, the just more often seek out police or military training than going vigilante - while others just do it for a paycheck or other person reasons.) The laws and disciplines of the Hellknight orders also circumscribe against nearly anything morally questionable or flagrantly evil - with the exception of summoning devils, which is done with cause. In nearly every case with the Hellknights, the ends justify the means, and the means are severe, but just.
A cleric of Iomedae probably wouldn't be a Hellknight, but there's nothing restricting Hellknights from worshipping Iomedae. Prereqs for the prestige class just require lawful alignment, not evil.
Ah, here we go. This is the specific Hellknight order that venerates Iomedae. Not your run-of-the-order Hellnight, or your run-of-the-order Iomedae worship, of course, but Freya doesn't know enough about it to understand that. One of its leaders is, in fact, a paladin.
Sorry for the quiet: I'm currently wrapped up in Holiday cheer and having trouble breaking away for rp. Will post when I can.
In the interests of not blowing the campaign off the rails...
Would it be simpler if Hardin relaxed his principles a bit on taking prisoners?
There are entire categories of foes that Hardin will kill without a second thought (and to some extent, banditry is close to that line - as is murder).
Obviously, having this either pay off (showing Hardin is right about redemption) or having it blow up in his face once or twice (showing that he's being too kind) would tilt the scales...and while I'd like it to be the former, I'm willing to accept either result.
The downside is that every prisoner we take - every life we spare - requires the DM to jump through hoops either keeping track of them as a recurring NPC, or to find ways for us to dispose of them.
Happy New Year! I just got back from partying over the weekend in NYC, so I haven't logged into Paizo at all for the past few days. Now that the holiday madness is over I can rededicate myself to the game.
My initial build for this campaign (I was the first alternate) was a Half-Orc Sorceress with Burning Hands and Hypnosis as her 1st level spells. With Conspiracy Hunter [Diplomacy]. High Charisma plus traits and racial abilities driving Bluff, Intimidate and Diplomacy backing up a mind affecting spell.
DM-J rightly felt that Semenya would step on your schtick too much, and I agreed, so we made Hardin, who's been a blast to play.
I'm now running her in another instance of this AP, that is moving at about half the pace of this one (and started two months later to boot).
Not a complaint, just an observation. :) Wander Weir and I are in a Serpent's Skull game in which no one has put any ranks into Diplomacy, and we're constantly getting on the bad side of NPCs despite our best efforts.
That said, I think Freya might invest in a rank or two of Bluff next chance she gets. She's downplayed the necessity of lying, preferring blunt honesty to the verbal trickery favored by Asmodeus, but she's coming to see that there are instances when a quick lie is more efficient than annoying everyone.
...wait, Freya is aware that she's annoying? :)
Goes off to make sure that Elder Seals haven't been broken.
Hardin's got Intimidate, Diplomacy, Sense Motive and Perception. Sadly, Bluff is not really his schtick.
Sarien's bluff is reasonably good and he's been able to use it to great effect thus far. It should have been him making up a story in the first place, but he didn't want to get involved until he thought he had little choice but to do so.
How it sounded in Rauno's head:
Good morning! We are just returning from delivering some blown glass for the guild. We are just returning to report to the merchants on their deliveries and to get paid.
How it sounded coming from Rauno's mouth:
Um, hi. Good... morning? Yes, morning. Um, don't mind us. We were just returning to the city after picking up - oh wait, the cart's empty so that won't work - we, uh, delivered... Glass! Yes, glass! Um, blown glass! Fragile stuff. And we, uh, we don't want to pay a bribe to you or anything, so... We haven't been paid yet! Yup. We're going to pick up our coins now. So. Um. Can we go past now?
You forgot, We don't have any people tied up in the backs of these wagons, so you don't have to check. No, sir. ;)
In the interests of not blowing the campaign off the rails...
Would it be simpler if Hardin relaxed his principles a bit on taking prisoners?
There are entire categories of foes that Hardin will kill without a second thought (and to some extent, banditry is close to that line - as is murder).
Obviously, having this either pay off (showing Hardin is right about redemption) or having it blow up in his face once or twice (showing that he's being too kind) would tilt the scales...and while I'd like it to be the former, I'm willing to accept either result.
The downside is that every prisoner we take - every life we spare - requires the DM to jump through hoops either keeping track of them as a recurring NPC, or to find ways for us to dispose of them.
Been meaning to respond to this....
Taking prisoners tends to be problematic unless the group is working with an NPC organization to which they can "turn over" the prisoners and move on with the plot. If, for instance, the 'Liberators' were to forge a working arrangement with the Dottari, that would work out great. We could hand in petty malefactors, the Dottari get to show up the Hellknights by being more effective, and the PCs move on with the story without worrying about guarding and feeding the prisoners. I could see a similar kind of deal working with the Temple of Iomedae as well.
I can't see that Janiven's abandoned church is a great stand-in for real holding cells. Not only is it not set up for imprisoning people, with the bars and the locks and such, but seeing as it's a secret hideout, any extra traffic in and out can only draw unwanted attention. In addition, unless some of the PCs are going to stay to stand watch at all times, we're entrusting guard duty to some pretty eccentric and un-battletested NPCs. Not to mention that releasing any of these prisoners will entail trusting them enough to swear them to secrecy about the location of the hideout.
I wouldn't want Hardin to change his opinion unless and until he comes to some of the same conclusions on his own as a character. But especially since the leaders of the Liberators are against unnecessary deaths, it might be worth considering our options as to which legitimate authorities we might be able to work with, if only in the Spider-Man sense of leaving them tied up on the doorstep.
DM-J: Posts seem to have hit a slow down. Is there something you're waiting on from some of us that we've missed?
No, sir, not at all. I've just been extremely busy at work. I'll get some updates up pronto.
From what I read, the chief bandit said payment was rendered while he was asleep; it wasn't clear if he was paid before or after doing a job or just on an ongoing basis to keep up his activities. So what's our plan? One of us quietly take up residence at his place so there's activity there but keep the curtains drawn so they can't see it's not him, and the rest of us watch the door at night until the guys delivering the payment show up?
[Taking the matter to the OOC thread since Freya wasn't there when the man was interrogated. If you want to say you convey the information to her, we could discuss in character, but then I'll have to come up with dismissive comments and abrasive remarks. ;) ]
I suspect that someone is using a sleep spell or poison to cause the bandit leader to be asleep during the payment drop off. I was thinking we could disguise one of us to take this guy's place for the drop off. Rauno is immune to sleep, but doesn't have the disguise skill. If this bandit's residence has space for some of us to hide, we could lay in wait to ambush the instigator of the banditry.
I suspect that someone is using a sleep spell or poison to cause the bandit leader to be asleep during the payment drop off. I was thinking we could disguise one of us to take this guy's place for the drop off. Rauno is immune to sleep, but doesn't have the disguise skill. If this bandit's residence has space for some of us to hide, we could lay in wait to ambush the instigator of the banditry.
"Let's use one of the 'Green-Cloaks,' then. They might as well make themselves useful, and there's got to be one stupid enough to think it sounds thrilling to be on the front lines."
Hey - sorry, I often fail to check up on the OOC thread.
I was going to ask about this plan to lie in wait for the payment - but let's see what info you glean from Trask in the interregation before we hash that out.
OK - summation of what we know:
Elger Trask was hired by someone posing as a man who walked like a woman (Rauno, Sarien and Tao know this, Hardin and Freya don't).
Trask put on a bold face about how his kids would be better off without him. Known by all.
We don't know when he's next scheduled to get an assignment. He claims to not know who's giving him said assignments.
We don't know if he's the only one getting assignments. More assignments to more people means a potentially bigger operation.
What other questions do people want to ask him?
Sorry, trying to give at least some feedback for 32 wondrous items today. Might be a little slow. Just wanted to let you guys/girls know.
Anyone going to Paizocon, by the way?
I'm going to try and do Paizocon this year. It's embarrassing because I live across the lake from Paizocon and I work just a couple miles from it. But for the last several years the finances have just been way too tight to consider it. This year, that's looking better.
Wish I could, but I'm guessing there's not much there to entertain a 7-year-old and 4-year-old. My brother-in-law went last year. He just happened to be going to Seattle the same weekend, and we told him he had to go to Paizocon. He had a great time.
I have professional obligations at Origins and GenCon - the four weeks leading up to a major show are deadline hell for me.
If PaizoCon were in May...maybe. :)
Probably not. I don't get out to that part of the country much, and whenever I do I have family and friend obligations.
Well, if there are still spots available when I get my tax return back, then I'm in. Right now I have two of the four W2's I need to file.
Just a heads up:
I'm heading out of town tomorrow morning for the south where I'll be doing some actual table rpg play for a long weekend (yay!). I probably will not be able to post much (if at all) from tomorrow (Friday) until Tuesday.
Hopefully it won't be much of an inconvenience, especially considering end of the month madness.
No problem, WW, I actually am going on a business trip to Phoenix myself this week (until Thursday). I really won't have much opportunity to post.
Look, you guys have been very patient with me and I appreciate that more than I can explain. This has really been a good deal more demanding than I anticipated, and I can do nothing but apologize for the slowness of the game of late. I do plan to pick things back up upon returning from Arizona.
You guys (and gal!) are great, and I'm very sorry again for the slowness of things.
J
No problem, DM J. I think we all recognize that running a game is a lot more effort than running a PC. I appreciate you taking it on for us, and dropping in to keep us informed when you need some extra time. If it ever gets to the point where it is too much work or it stops being fun for you, just let us know, okay?
I know that GMing a PbP is a much bigger commitment in terms of time and preparation than most people think it is going in. That's the main reason I've never given in to the temptation to get one going: fear of getting in over my head. I have a hard enough time keeping up with the campaign I GM in real life.
That said, going forward, you're the only one who can make the call as to whether or not you have the resources to keep the game going. If you can't, it's no reflection on your abilities as a GM. One of the best PbP GMs I've ever played with had to back out of his online games due to not having enough time to keep up with it. I'd just rather come to a clear decision than trail away with a whimper....
Personally, I'd love to keep running with this group and am not a big fan of changing GMs in midstream (especially as you never know what you're going to get advertising for a GM, beggars not being choosers and all).
I'm up for continuing.
I am certainly up for continuing. But if it isn't fun for you because of the pressure, I'd completely understand if you wanted to call it. Just let us know either way.
I'm still around. Got caught by surprise with a three day weekend and ended up rushing away on a trip without any notice to take advantage of it.
Anyway, I'm flexible either way. Like Joana, I'm not a fan of DM's changing in midstream. I've been enjoying the game and the group but if the time isn't available to you, DM, I can certainly understand and respect that. I support whatever decision you make but I'm happy to continue.
Well, given that it took a whole day for me to even find time to properly respond to the topic at hand, you can see what I'm dealing with. I haven't been as active on Alexander's Serpent Skull game as I'd like to (and probably need to) be, I haven't kept up with the excellect "DM Sully's" gang of players on their Kingmaker game, and I've also got this game. I appreciate everyone's understanding, but I just do not think it's something I can do right now.
It's really terrible, because I went into this 120%, with a "Don't drop out because I won't drop out on you" mentality, and now I'm doing just that. Alexander put in a kind word for me as well back on the recruitment thread, saying that I would likely stick around, and now I'm making a liar out of him as well. It's very frustrating, all the more so because you all put a lot of effort into concocting a very unique party that had a really different and cool vibe going on.
So, I apologize wholeheartedly. It's my promise to you guys that I won't take on a task like this again without properly ensuring that I have enough time to devote to the task (which likely will be several years away, given my kid's ages: 2 1/2 and 7 months). In the meantime, I wish you the best of luck in all your endeavours, and I'm sure I will see you around the boards from time to time. Man, I feel terrible. :-(
Don't beat yourself up over it! I appreciate you coming onto the threads to let us know where you were at. We all have real life circumstances that can cause us to slow down posting, drop out for days at a time, or even long-term. Just let it go with no hard feelings, and we'll see you in some of the other threads. :)
Seriously, with a 7 month old, I'm impressed you were able to keep things going as long as you did!
Thanks for running and for including me in the game. I totally understand the difficulties juggling time commitments, and for a game like this it's impossible to effectively predict where you're going to be several months in the future, not to mention years.
I enjoyed the game while it lasted and blame you not at all. It's been fun playing with you, DM J, and if circumstances allow for us to be in a game together again, I'll be happy to rp with you.
I am sorry to see this one end as well. I was enjoying playing Hardin off of Freya and Sarien.
I have a suggestion, however.
Check on this at the end of March and see where you're at. I doubt any of us would object to giving you a month off if it'll help you prep ahead so that you're not constantly trying to post as often as five of us. :)
Alternatively, could you swap GMing roles with Tao, since he's local?
Pause buttons are better than endings. :)
If this were a matter of getting swamped by the holidays and still needing some time to dig out and get caught up on everything, a month off might well help. If it's more a matter of trying to run the game from work during office hours, I can only imagine it would get more difficult as the game progresses and gets more complex.
That said, we all seem to be Paizo regulars in this game and will mostly likely be around, should DM J's circumstances change in the future.