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I don't see this level of optimization from the players in the groups I've been in. I'm not sure how common it is but there are a lot of players who just don't optimize like you have. Under point buy a LOT of people don't dump to 7, particularly not on 2 stats. Also with rolling 4d6 18s are still uncommon (if you roll honestly). And there are a good number of fighters that don't have races with strength bumps... lots of elf/ dwarf fighters out there. In most games I've been in characters wind up using a mix of items they find and some items they've bought, it seems fairly uncommon that they have the ideal mix you sort of assume is standard.
Basically you are assuming an optimized fighter and a typical eidolon since the sample eidolon isn't particularly optimal either.
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@Ellington: A few more suggestions:
Talk to the guy who plays the summoner and see if you can get him to spend a bit of effort on buffing other players in addition to his eidolon. Throwing down haste for the party should help the fighters more than the eidolon, enlarge person on the main fighter gives him reach also which is nice.
I don't see this level of optimization from the players in the groups I've been in. I'm not sure how common it is but there are a lot of players who just don't optimize like you have. Under point buy a LOT of people don't dump to 7, particularly not on 2 stats. Also with rolling 4d6 18s are still uncommon (if you roll honestly). And there are a good number of fighters that don't have races with strength bumps... lots of elf/ dwarf fighters out there. In most games I've been in characters wind up using a mix of items they find and some items they've bought, it seems fairly uncommon that they have the ideal mix you sort of assume is standard.
Basically you are assuming an optimized fighter and a typical eidolon since the sample eidolon isn't particularly optimal either.
Drop the Str by 2 and raise the 7s to a 10 and 9 and you have a pretty standard 15 point buy. I have never seen a fighter not have +1 armor, a +1 weapon, a +2 str item, and +1 cloak by lvl 5. Usually, I see them have an ANA and ROP too, pluss some more gear. The end result is 1 to hit and 2 to damage, which at least 2 others have pointed out is typical at lvl 5 for a fighter using a THW. This character is not that far off from normal.
@Ellington: A few more suggestions:
Talk to the guy who plays the summoner and see if you can get him to spend a bit of effort on buffing other players in addition to his eidolon. Throwing down haste for the party should help the fighters more than the eidolon, enlarge person on the main fighter gives him reach also which is nice.
I agree, along with your previous suggestion to occasionally use fire resistant enemies.
I also liked someone else's suggestion to have enemy summoners, perhaps a reoccurring BBEG, nemesis to the summoner. How do you fight Godzilla? You bring in another monster! :)
Also, I've played a 3.5e trip fighter with the spiked chain (that had reach) and was being out damaged by a Paladin(3.5e) with a greataxe. (I was all "WTF?!") Choosing the path of 'trip fighter' is a battlefield controller. My DM ran down the numbers and feats for me showing me why the Paladin was doing more damage, answer; primarily because that's where he spent his feats(Power attack, Cleave, etc.) where as I spent mine on tripping and mobility.(Combat Expertise, Imp Trip, Combat Reflexes, Spring Attack, etc.) While the Paladin waded into combat, I was second rank (with reach) and almost nothing ever got by me to our support.(cleric, sorcerer, etc.) Your Druid and Fighter should be working together to essentially lock the battlefield down completely IMO, not worrying about the eidolon's damage. *shrug*
@Ellington: A few more suggestions:
Talk to the guy who plays the summoner and see if you can get him to spend a bit of effort on buffing other players in addition to his eidolon. Throwing down haste for the party should help the fighters more than the eidolon, enlarge person on the main fighter gives him reach also which is nice.
I agree, along with your previous suggestion to occasionally use fire resistant enemies.
I also liked someone else's suggestion to have enemy summoners, perhaps a reoccurring BBEG, nemesis to the summoner. How do you fight Godzilla? You bring in another monster! :)
Also, I've played a 3.5e trip fighter with the spiked chain (that had reach) and was being out damaged by a Paladin(3.5e) with a greataxe. (I was all "WTF?!") Choosing the path of 'trip fighter' is a battlefield controller. My DM ran down the numbers and feats for me showing me why the Paladin was doing more damage, answer; primarily because that's where he spent his feats(Power attack, Cleave, etc.) where as I spent mine on tripping and mobility.(Combat Expertise, Imp Trip, Combat Reflexes, Spring Attack, etc.) While the Paladin waded into combat, I was second rank (with reach) and almost nothing ever got by me to our support.(cleric, sorcerer, etc.) Your Druid and Fighter should be working together to essentially lock the battlefield down completely IMO, not worrying about the eidolon's damage. *shrug*
As a note, every Pathfinder reach tripper I have made has taken Power attack. Until higher levels, you can easily hit CMDs with it, and the added damage is too good to not use it
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Drop the Str by 2 and raise the 7s to a 10 and 9 and you have a pretty standard 15 point buy. I have never seen a fighter not have +1 armor, a +1 weapon, a +2 str item, and +1 cloak by lvl 5. Usually, I see them have an ANA and ROP too, pluss some more gear. The end result is 1 to hit and 2 to damage, which at least 2 others have pointed out is typical at lvl 5 for a fighter using a THW. This character is not that far off from normal.
No, it's not that far from typical, but considering the eidolon isn't very well optimized it seems like comparing it to a optimized fighter is a bit unreasonable. You can similarly build an optimized eidolon which is stronger and does more damage.
I'd like to thank everyone for a number of great suggestions. I'll be sure to use some in the next run.
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Drop the Str by 2 and raise the 7s to a 10 and 9 and you have a pretty standard 15 point buy. I have never seen a fighter not have +1 armor, a +1 weapon, a +2 str item, and +1 cloak by lvl 5. Usually, I see them have an ANA and ROP too, pluss some more gear. The end result is 1 to hit and 2 to damage, which at least 2 others have pointed out is typical at lvl 5 for a fighter using a THW. This character is not that far off from normal.No, it's not that far from typical, but considering the eidolon isn't very well optimized it seems like comparing it to a optimized fighter is a bit unreasonable. You can similarly build an optimized eidolon which is stronger and does more damage.
Umm...sorry, but that's not really optimized for damage. I mean honestly it doesn't even have great cleave...which it really should over lunge (since level 5 doesn't qualify for lunge anyways).
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No, it's not that far from typical, but considering the eidolon isn't very well optimized it seems like comparing it to a optimized fighter is a bit unreasonable. You can similarly build an optimized eidolon which is stronger and does more damage.You're missing the point.
The point was that THIS eidolon was seen as problematic and dealing 'too much damage'.
I get that. Apparently you don't get that THIS eidolon is in a group that doesn't optimize as indicated by the fact that the eidolon isn't even tuned for dealing damage and still out-damages everyone.
Which is exactly my point... most people don't optimize.
Dismissal... or just use CMB checks, drag off the summoner or the eidolon -- outside of 100 feet and he's just lost a chuck of HP. Hit that eidolon with a charm monster spell, and just tell it to walk off. Hit it with fear, heck just hit it with scorching ray a few times.
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That is pretty standardized vanila gear and below what the wealth by level recommends a character have at 5th level have (10,500).
I have never seen a fighter not have +1 armor, a +1 weapon, a +2 str item, and +1 cloak by lvl 5.
A little perspective here, the eidolon he compared it to doesn't have a single piece of equipment... completely naked.
I would guess most summoners use between 25-50% of their magic items on their eidolon.
Should a control wizard demand to deal the damage of a blaster and complain that the blaster is overpowered when the blaster deals more blast than the controller??-James
While an apt idea, not a great choice in comparision since most wizards deal about the same amount of damage when blasting regardless of specialization.
This may turn the corner soon.
When casters have 3rd level spells on a reliable basis (more than one/day), and especially when melee types get a second attack, you'll see things rebalance toward the players a bit more.
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The fact of the matter is, if a class like the summoner is this much of a pain in the arse, don't allow it. It's your game. You're not punishing anyone if you tell him the class is off limits, up front. One of the guy's PC Paladin died at 8th level. He came to me with a 'just average' Edilon build where the thing had been evolved to a large humanoid with a large great sword + power attack + the edilon's other weird physical attacks.
He was outputting 90+ damage a round if he hit with everything, leaving the Half Orc 6th Ftr/2nd Shadow Dancer (or his former Greatsword optimized Paladin, for that matter) MILES behind in damage output (this with the 1/2orc with high str/+2 weapon and specilize etc, etc. The monstrosity was doing three times as much damage). No thanks. And before peeps say a 'good DM can work around it', it's obviously not worth the hassel (to ME) worry about it every game...and should he HAVE to worka round it to begin with?
Apply the appropriate protection spell if the Summoner is good/evil. The Eidolon should be unable to attack those protected by the appropos Pro Vs Alignment Spell. We houseruled that the Eidolon shares the summoners alignment.... Protection Vs good/evil has a caveat that should help that I don't beleive was prohibited under the Summoner rules. Read the spell... the 3rd use of the Spell prevents summoned creatures from attacking characters so warded. This last for the duration or until said warded creature/character attacks teh summoned beastie. Of course this is trumped by a Nuetral Summoner summoning the opposed alignments or nuetral creatures. Also, a bad guy with levitate or fly trumps it anyway... just to name a couple of possibilities.
Actually by RAW eidolons are immune to protection alignment spells.
As for ways to stop the eidolon consider this. The eidolon is banished if the summoner in knocked unconscious. The eidolon usually has bad hp and is nearly always melee. Archers will typically stomp an eidolon into the ground. That is unless your summoner really know what he's doing and uses spells to swap his eidolon with other people. Also things with energy resistances and DR will slow the eidolon to a halt. As for your other players the fighter should be on par withe the eidolon and the druid should be somewhere close.
Also if your fighting monsters with ac's around 25 at this level you're DM is pretty hardcore.
The fact of the matter is, if a class like the summoner is this much of a pain in the arse, don't allow it. It's your game. You're not punishing anyone if you tell him the class is off limits, up front. One of the guy's PC Paladin died at 8th level. He came to me with a 'just average' Edilon build where the thing had been evolved to a large humanoid with a large great sword + power attack + the edilon's other weird physical attacks.
He was outputting 90+ damage a round if he hit with everything, leaving the Half Orc 6th Ftr/2nd Shadow Dancer (or his former Greatsword optimized Paladin, for that matter) MILES behind in damage output (this with the 1/2orc with high str/+2 weapon and specilize etc, etc. The monstrosity was doing three times as much damage). No thanks. And before peeps say a 'good DM can work around it', it's obviously not worth the hassel (to ME) worry about it every game...and should he HAVE to worka round it to begin with?
Shadowdancer is a weak prestige class. The only thing that's worthwhile is the 1st level feature.
As for damage an orc barbarian can do far more damage that makes that eidolon look pathetic.
GOD HOVER DAM YOU NECROMANCERS! -SHAKES FIST-
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I am not too hep on summoners so I might be missing something simple but this part looks strange:
Attacks: Bite +7 1d6+3+1d6fire
Gore +7 1d6+3+1d6fire
Claws +7 1d6+3+1d6fire
Power attack: -2/+4 on all attacks.
~Average damage power attacking & charging against AC around 17-18: 28
I though secondary attacks to an iterative -5. So +7/+2/-3.
Tell me what I am missing.
I am not too hep on summoners so I might be missing something simple but this part looks strange:
Attacks: Bite +7 1d6+3+1d6fire
Gore +7 1d6+3+1d6fire
Claws +7 1d6+3+1d6fire
Power attack: -2/+4 on all attacks.
~Average damage power attacking & charging against AC around 17-18: 28I though secondary attacks to an iterative -5. So +7/+2/-3.
Tell me what I am missing.
Attacks using manufactured weapons use the -5 per attack rule.
For natural weapons all primary weapons use the the BAB bonus, and all secondary natural attacks are made at -5 from the highest BAB possible.
I know that bites and claws are primary attacks unless stated otherwise so they would be made at a +7. I don't remember if the gore is primary or secondary. If it is a secondary it would be made at a +2. If it is a primary attack then it is also a +7.
I am not too hep on summoners so I might be missing something simple but this part looks strange:
Attacks: Bite +7 1d6+3+1d6fire
Gore +7 1d6+3+1d6fire
Claws +7 1d6+3+1d6fire
Power attack: -2/+4 on all attacks.
~Average damage power attacking & charging against AC around 17-18: 28I though secondary attacks to an iterative -5. So +7/+2/-3.
Tell me what I am missing.
This thread was a year ago. Necromancers brought the thread back.
If the summoner is really outshining everyone at 5th level then I can make a few predictions.
#1 It is probably a low magic campaign, what is the average wealth of the players? They should at least have some sort of magic damage.
#2 Is the fighter a 2 handed weapon fighter or a sword and shield? A 2 handed fighter will do much more damage.
#3 Are you using any monsters with damage reduction? A damage reduction of 5 will destroy an eidolon's ability to do damage, monster resistances will do the same thing.
#4 Have your monsters cast dismiss, to get rid of the eidolon. Or use traps whenever the eidolon is on point.
#5 Ability damage, Eidolons don't heal naturally. Every time the eidolon takes even one point of ability damage a restoration spell must be cast on it.
#6 The summoner is the weak link, knock him out.
#7 As a caster, the summoner is basically useless especially at low levels. With a limited number of spells per level the summoner of your campaign likely took buff spells and that is it.
With all this being said, if the other players in your game had built their characters to do damage, there wouldn't be a large disparity in damage.
If you really feel that the eidolon is too powerful, then restrict his feat choices to just the core books. I.E. No improved natural attack feat.
I removed a post. If you don't want to see a thread go on, then don't post in it or use the hide button.
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Shadowdancer is a weak prestige class. The only thing that's worthwhile is the 1st level feature.
As for damage an orc barbarian can do far more damage that makes that eidolon look pathetic.
GOD HOVER DAM YOU NECROMANCERS! -SHAKES FIST-
You're off your nut if you think the shadwodancer's only good ability is level 1. A shadow can be very challenging when hes str draining everything every encounter. A lot of foes can't even hurt it. Combine that with shadow walk, and hide in plain sight...yeah, weak it ain't. And no, a similar level barbarian does not outclass a large humanoid edilon damage-wise. A 7th level raging barbarian with +2 great axe and 20 str is dishing around 40+ points. A large high str large-sized weapon edilon it dishing twice that with natural attacks added.
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The summoner is definitely still a bit overpowered. My suggestion would be to talk to your player about how the rest of the group is feeling and try to convince him to tone his eidolon down. If this is PFS, your players are probably just out of luck.
actually not---a druid will overpower a summoner
1. more and better spells
2. animal companion may be a little weaker (BUT) the druid itself can shapechange into just as powerful and can summon natures ally
ie the high level druid can basically have a dire lion animal type companion, be a dire lion animal companion (both with magic items) and SNA--more dire lions.
a druid will out dps the summoner if played right
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Not beat a dead horse but, I too am having some trouble with a summoner. I have not looked at the synthesist summoner, but I have come to not like it. My player has worked it out to where he has a large flying eidolon with a large broad sword and then casts enlarge person on himself. This has un-balanced my game. With the flying he bypasses my terrain and now with cleaving finish he goes through monsters like used tissue. I understand the focus of being focused on combat, but I don't want to put in too high of CR monsters in fear for the other players. Any thoughts on this would be most welcome.
Forgive any spelling error as I'm crying into my drink coming up with ways to handle this and I fear my dog my be packing to leave.
obviously you were doing home campaigns and not pathfinder society. PFS has pretty much all "inside" adventures. flying doesnt do you anygood with low ceilings and large creatures are "squeezing" everywhere they go.
use his size against him--large doesnt work well in buildings designed for medium. Ever try to see a horse maneuver around in a house?
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I read quite a few threads but not all of them. There is one solution that will be the bane of your Summoner that you can throw at them in regular intervals. It isn't complicated and doesn't involve smart or tactical position of the Enemies. All you have to do is...
Because he goes away when the summoner sleeps. After playing a summoner I can tell you the most frustrating thing in the world is being attacked at night. You know that 1min ritual to summon him? Unless he wants to spend 10 rounds to get his buddy up he is going to have to change tactics quick.
And honestly don't use this just to counter the Summoner, use it to challenge the whole group. Nothing is more difficult then fending off an attack when only one player is on watch and failed a perception check.
Edit: Its either elf or half-elf that can use FCB to reduce the ritual by 1 round to a min of 1 round.
Lol! Sorry, I just dont get it. If everyone is using the same rules set, who cares if someone is "outshining" the other players? We are all on the same team right? If I was in this game I would just follow the melee monster, help where I could, and collect the loot. It's not like the eidolon gets a share right? Let him do most of the work, who cares? Its not like any class would last long on their own, a party needs ever member.
Besides that, every other member of the party can do something this quadraped cant. OPEN a frigging door! Lets see the eidolon get very far by himself without the party.
The fact of the matter is, if a class like the summoner is this much of a pain in the arse, don't allow it. It's your game. You're not punishing anyone if you tell him the class is off limits, up front. One of the guy's PC Paladin died at 8th level. He came to me with a 'just average' Edilon build where the thing had been evolved to a large humanoid with a large great sword + power attack + the edilon's other weird physical attacks.
He was outputting 90+ damage a round if he hit with everything, leaving the Half Orc 6th Ftr/2nd Shadow Dancer (or his former Greatsword optimized Paladin, for that matter) MILES behind in damage output (this with the 1/2orc with high str/+2 weapon and specilize etc, etc. The monstrosity was doing three times as much damage). No thanks. And before peeps say a 'good DM can work around it', it's obviously not worth the hassel (to ME) worry about it every game...and should he HAVE to worka round it to begin with?
As someone who played a summoner with a paladin in the party, I'm baffled by this. I had to work to keep my eidolon as useful as our party paladin. Then again, I was going for a claw/pounce build, not a weapon using eidolon so maybe that has a different outcome.
I have to say though, as soon as you start taking levels in shadowdancer you're no longer allowed to complain when you fall behind in damage, lol!