|
The Prestidigitation cantrip lasts for an hour and can be used to do various minor magic tricks, in the spell text it uses soiling an object as example.
Imagine this situation:
Prestidigitation was cast half an hour ago, so it will still be active for another half hour. A noble holds a speech. Now, my caster wants to soil that nobles clothes using prestidigitation. Would any of the NPCs / bystanders present notice that the soiling of the noble's clothes was caused by prestidigitation? Does the caster have to use some additional gestures/words/... which would be noticeable?
The Prestidigitation cantrip lasts for an hour and can be used to do various minor magic tricks, in the spell text it uses soiling an object as example.
Imagine this situation:
Prestidigitation was cast half an hour ago, so it will still be active for another half hour. A noble holds a speech. Now, my caster wants to soil that nobles clothes using prestidigitation. Would any of the NPCs / bystanders present notice that the soiling of the noble's clothes was caused by prestidigitation? Does the caster have to use some additional gestures/words/... which would be noticeable?
I don't know that there's additional RAW to answer this, but there is discussion of intent. I don't personally interpret that the spell lasts an hour in the sense that you can do your tricks at any time within that time period. I interpret it that you do your trick and the results last for an hour. If you heat water, that water stays hot for an hour. You can't just wait a half-hour THEN heat the water. If you clean clothes I'd argue they stay clean because you physically move the dirt off them. Dirtying... you create the dirt so it only lasts an hour.
Point is no, I wouldn't allow this to be triggered after the initial casting.
If you were making a fake fire dance in your hand I'd let you control that little image but not to change your mind and start heating water part way through. You're asking to go from not-dirtying someone's clothes to dirtying someone's clothes part way through the spell's duration.
What you might need is a Silent and Still version of this. Two feats or a rod and a feat.
|
From the spell:
"Once cast, a prestidigitation spell enables you to perform simple magical effects for 1 hour. "
I read this as you can do many tricks in that one hour, not one trick that lasts one hour. I view it as a spell to cast before doing a kids magic show.
In fact the wording here :"It can color, clean, or soil items in a 1-foot cube each round." seems to point to this also.
Taking that into note, I do not believe that it would need any more somatic or verbal components,but a detect magic would point it out rather quickly. Also, it would only take a DC 16 spellcraft check to figure out what is going on.
Come at it the other way.
Bump into the mayor before the speech, spill ink or something on him. Then apologize and offer to clean his clothes. Intentionally use prestidigitation to hide the stains instead of removing them. Then, half-way through the speech, kill the spell.
|
|
Come at it the other way.
Bump into the mayor before the speech, spill ink or something on him. Then apologize and offer to clean his clothes. Intentionally use prestidigitation to hide the stains instead of removing them. Then, half-way through the speech, kill the spell.
Would not work. This line from the spell stops it from going away:
"Any actual change to an object (beyond just moving, cleaning, or soiling it) persists only 1 hour."
This to me implies that cleaning or soiling lasts till it is either dirty again or until it is cleaned.
I personally don't want a magic system that makes it easy for people to mess with magic in a totally undectable way. Genie had to fold her arms and blink. Samantha Stevens had to wiggle her nose. And we have verbal, somatic, and material components to deal with in Pathfinder.
Prestidigitation requires verbal and somatic components to cast. For me, I infer from that that each time you do something once the cantrip is active, you must also supply a verbal and somatic component. So cast your Prestidigitation, and then for the next hour you can do as much prestidigitating with it as you want, but each time you do, you have to say a word or two and point at the affected object.
You want to soil the nobleman? Fine. You point at him and say "Soil!". Etc.
No, this is not explicit in the RAW, but this is a cantrip. And used cleverly enough, this can have very far reaching impact, at least in a role-playing sense, and I don't really care for cantrips being able to change people's lives, invisibly, and against their will.
|
|
I personally don't want a magic system that makes it easy for people to mess with magic in a totally undectable way. Genie had to fold her arms and blink. Samantha Stevens had to wiggle her nose. And we have verbal, somatic, and material components to deal with in Pathfinder.
Prestidigitation requires verbal and somatic components to cast. For me, I infer from that that each time you do something once the cantrip is active, you must also supply a verbal and somatic component. So cast your Prestidigitation, and then for the next hour you can do as much prestidigitating with it as you want, but each time you do, you have to say a word or two and point at the affected object.
You want to soil the nobleman? Fine. You point at him and say "Soil!". Etc.
No, this is not explicit in the RAW, but this is a cantrip. And used cleverly enough, this can have very far reaching impact, at least in a role-playing sense, and I don't really care for cantrips being able to change people's lives, invisibly, and against their will.
Do you also require that a Druid needs to provide the verbal and somatic components for Call lightning every time they call down a bolt? Or would a wizard need the Verbal, somatic and material components for "Flaming Sphere" every time it is moved?
The reason that I ask is that your house ruling also would effect those. I would rather run the game as a GM and take stuff like that into account (a smart noble would have a caster for defense/detection if he was giving a speech in a public area in a world with many known spellcasters) then change the rules for spells.
Do you also require that a Druid needs to provide the verbal and somatic components for Call lightning every time they call down a bolt? Or would a wizard need the Verbal, somatic and material components for "Flaming Sphere" every time it is moved?
I would assume that the druid and the wizard each makes some physical movement, probably pointing, whenever they direct their spells in this way.
I'd allow you a Slight of Hand check to remain undetected when soiling the noble, but I agree with Blake that from an RP perspective there's no reason to believe that directing these spells isn't obvious.
Do you also require that a Druid needs to provide the verbal and somatic components for Call lightning every time they call down a bolt? Or would a wizard need the Verbal, somatic and material components for "Flaming Sphere" every time it is moved?I would assume that the druid and the wizard each makes some physical movement, probably pointing, whenever they direct their spells in this way.
I'd allow you a Slight of Hand check to remain undetected when soiling the noble, but I agree with Blake that from an RP perspective there's no reason to believe that directing these spells isn't obvious.
Me too.
The druid points where the lightning will strike and says "Zot!" (or whatever). The wizard points along the path the sphere will roll and says "Burn!" or whatever. No additional material components are needed to control an active spell after it's been cast.
While the trick would work, one important thing to consider is the range on prestidigitation. Having to be only 10 feet away means its going to be very hard to pull off without getting someone's attention. Even if all you have to do is concentrate, its going to be very suspicious. Not to mention that it may not even be possible to get that close if they have bodyguards.
Unless it was artfully done it would be glaringly obvious that there was a spell at work. Done in the vicinity of... the appropriate anatomical sections it might not be.
Figuring out a spell effect as you see it is
Identify a spell effect that is in place Arcana 20 + spell level
A successful check would tell them it was prestidigitation at work, which would narrow the suspects down to those within 10 feet.
When I first started playing spell casters prestidigitation was explained as what a spell caster uses when they are working on many things at one time. Basically go to the workshop and conduct things. Stir this, light that, add the other, clean whatever that was...all without actual manual labor.
Sorry, I didn't check the date on this thread.
Sorry, I didn't check the date on this thread.
Prestidigitation never gets old. ;)
Um... directing a spell requires concentration right? So a simple perception check would reveal the caster. Even if they aren't using magic words and gesturing. It would be blatantly obvious that the noble was the target of a spell when his clothes suddenly get soiled. The spell description allows for a possible saving throw as well (though it doesn't define when exactly other than to imply it is dependent on how you are using it). I would allow a reflex save to avoid the soil effect since the clothes are being worn. However this plays out the caster is going to have a powerful enemy.
Come at it the other way.
Bump into the mayor before the speech, spill ink or something on him. Then apologize and offer to clean his clothes. Intentionally use prestidigitation to hide the stains instead of removing them. Then, half-way through the speech, kill the spell.
Would not work. This line from the spell stops it from going away:
"Any actual change to an object (beyond just moving, cleaning, or soiling it) persists only 1 hour."
This to me implies that cleaning or soiling lasts till it is either dirty again or until it is cleaned.
Actually mdt's idea would work well, and keep the caster out of range when the stain appears.
Color the stain, then an hour later, the stain appears, caster no where in sight.
Um... directing a spell requires concentration right? So a simple perception check would reveal the caster. Even if they aren't using magic words and gesturing. It would be blatantly obvious that the noble was the target of a spell when his clothes suddenly get soiled.
How would it be blatantly obvious?
If a noble is giving a speech, they likely expect that most of the crowd is concentrating on them - how would they know which one is the caster and which is simply an obedient subject?
|
|
Um... directing a spell requires concentration right? So a simple perception check would reveal the caster. Even if they aren't using magic words and gesturing. It would be blatantly obvious that the noble was the target of a spell when his clothes suddenly get soiled.How would it be blatantly obvious?
If a noble is giving a speech, they likely expect that most of the crowd is concentrating on them - how would they know which one is the caster and which is simply an obedient subject?
Agreed. It is just a move action to redirect a spell. You can still do a standard action at the same time, so it is not that much concentration.
Um... directing a spell requires concentration right? So a simple perception check would reveal the caster. Even if they aren't using magic words and gesturing. It would be blatantly obvious that the noble was the target of a spell when his clothes suddenly get soiled.How would it be blatantly obvious?
If a noble is giving a speech, they likely expect that most of the crowd is concentrating on them - how would they know which one is the caster and which is simply an obedient subject?
This...
He may be able to figure it out... but I think the word 'blatangly' is a bit much.
Do you also require that a Druid needs to provide the verbal and somatic components for Call lightning every time they call down a bolt? Or would a wizard need the Verbal, somatic and material components for "Flaming Sphere" every time it is moved?Too a modified degree... YES! This is pseudo-medieval style magic, not sci-fi psionics. Spells that require active direction mean that the direction has to manifest in some manner. It wouldn't be the same as the initial components for casting but it would be some form of gesture and/or invocation of command. There's active precedent for this. IF you cast a Summon Monster spell and you can't communicate with what you summon, all you can expect is an attack the nearest enemy response.
This concerns me a bit... depending on how the DM rules.
Are you saying that If I have call lighting up or presdigitation or flaming sphere running... or ANY spell with a 'duration', That my opponent can nullify it with a silence spell?
I think Concentrations and such are fine... But really, that sounds VERY broken...
There are enough ways to negate/dispell/cancel spells without going THIS route...
Personally i like the idea of simple commands and such, but for flavor. the moment the DM can exploit the 'added rules' then it becomes less fun.
Agreed. It is just a move action to redirect a spell. You can still do a standard action at the same time, so it is not that much concentration.Um... directing a spell requires concentration right? So a simple perception check would reveal the caster. Even if they aren't using magic words and gesturing. It would be blatantly obvious that the noble was the target of a spell when his clothes suddenly get soiled.How would it be blatantly obvious?
If a noble is giving a speech, they likely expect that most of the crowd is concentrating on them - how would they know which one is the caster and which is simply an obedient subject?
Redirecting a spell does not require concentration at all.
As far as lifting 600 lbs... that's... um... not going to do much for you. Because it will take you an hour before you're up to lifting the 600 pounds point, after which you will spend an hour continuing to levitate said thing. This is opposed to, say, Levitate which, as a second level spell, as a sixth level spellcaster you'd also be able to duplicate as a standard action instead.
I mean, Prestidigitation is, without a doubt, ill-defined, and it is also unparalleled in what it can do, but it's actually a pretty great spell all-around.
Also, the key word in the lifting is "slowly". Compare that, again, to Levitate (which is not noted as being "slow", but is noted as being "at will"), which allows up to 20 ft per round. This means that prestidigitation must likely be slower than this. Considering the range is 10 feet, and based off the reading of the Slow spell, I'd say (though this isn't RAW) that the speed is 5 feet.
Also, bear in mind that this doesn't allow you to imitate Mage Hand, which not only has a longer reach, but allows you to move an object up to 15 feet in a round (and also up to 5 lbs).
Of course, you could, if you wish, rule the speed up to 10 feet (the actual range of the spell, beyond which you couldn't cause anything to happen). Technically, by that logic, you could lift it up to 10 feet above your height[i] (so long as the entire 600 lb object was not over 10ft more than your height)! Wow!
So, let's say it can slowly raise 600 lbs. You can do so... [i]over the course of an hour.
There are so, very, very many ways to do this exact thing better, easier, and more rapidly, that I'm shocked anyone considers this a problem.
Sure, it could be, if a character had, say, an hour to prepare, and raised a statue (or something) next to a door, and dropped it on someone's head. That'd be pretty deadly! All at the cost of the mage staying there for an hour (or more) constantly casting prestidigitation, and hoping the target doesn't notice his constant muttering and gesturing as they walk in the door.
This... isn't overpowered. Useful? Amazingly. But not overpowered.
EDIT: for word choice
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Assuming you could do it without anybody noticing, you could direct at the speach-makers groin, and make it look like they wet themself! Childish? Absolutely, but it would explain where a mysterious stain suddenly sprang from.
I would disallow it. A general purpose cantrip being able to do that? If a DM doesn't get their Nerf Bat out at this point then they are not doing their job properly.
Since you're targeting a creature, the speaker gets a save (probably a will save).
Spellcraft DC 15 to recognize the effect as magical.
If the speaker has security scanning the crowd, the guard gets a perception check to notice the caster. Starting DC 10, modified by distance, size of the crowd, concealment behind other onlookers, etc.
Keep in mind that characters know that magic exists and plan for it.
I don't know that there's additional RAW to answer this, but there is discussion of intent. I don't personally interpret that the spell lasts an hour in the sense that you can do your tricks at any time within that time period. I interpret it that you do your trick and the results last for an hour. If you heat water, that water stays hot for an hour.
I also understand it the way you explained it. Any final ruling about it? What is a RAW?
artificer, RAW = Rules As Written. In rules discussions it is generally contrasted with RAI (Rules As Intended). For this discussion, RAW is:
Prestidigitation
School universal; Level bard 0, sorcerer/wizard 0
Casting Time 1 standard action
Components V, S
Range 10 ft.
Target, Effect, or Area see text
Duration 1 hour
Saving Throw see text; Spell Resistance no
Prestidigitations are minor tricks that novice spellcasters use for practice. Once cast, a prestidigitation spell enables you to perform simple magical effects for 1 hour. The effects are minor and have severe limitations. A prestidigitation can slowly lift 1 pound of material. It can color, clean, or soil items in a 1-foot cube each round. It can chill, warm, or flavor 1 pound of nonliving material. It cannot deal damage or affect the concentration of spellcasters. Prestidigitation can create small objects, but they look crude and artificial. The materials created by a prestidigitation spell are extremely fragile, and they cannot be used as tools, weapons, or spell components. Finally, prestidigitation lacks the power to duplicate any other spell effects. Any actual change to an object (beyond just moving, cleaning, or soiling it) persists only 1 hour.
I love this spell because it is so versatile for a low level spell. I generally present what I want to do with it to my GM and if he feels it is too powerful, then I accept his ruling. We do not allow cumulative effects.
If Prestidigitation heats water to 82C, then you cast it again, it heats the water back to 82C again. The water would not be hot enough to injure anyone (no HP loss, not even nonlethal), but enough to distract them for one round if you threw it in their face (but you take a penalty for improvised weapon).
You cannot use it to lift more than one pound of material, period.
That's my groups general take on the spell.
-Aaron
deuxhero/Itchy have the right idea. Presidigitation's effects are not cumulative. Otherwise you would be able to slowly duplicate quite a few spells with it, which it can't do.
That does bring a question to mind though. It can't duplicate other spells, but what about other cantrips? Spark in particular. Prestidigitation is the traditional way to make that effect, so if it can't duplicate cantrips, its value is diminished by the existence of spark. But if it can duplicate cantrips, why learn anything else? How do people deal with this?
It can't duplicate other spells, but what about other cantrips?
A cantrip is a 0-level spell. So: no.
Guys. Again, Prestidigitation.
The effects are minor and have severe limitations. A prestidigitation can slowly lift 1 pound of material. It can color, clean, or soil items in a 1-foot cube each round. It can chill, warm, or flavor 1 pound of nonliving material. It cannot deal damage or affect the concentration of spellcasters.
Bold mine, for emphasis:
1) It has "severe" limitations. Setzer9999, what you're describing isn't "severe limitations" by any metric. But let's presume it can do that.
2) It cannot affect more than 1 lb for chill/warm/flavoring. This means if this kind of stuff is attempted, it could never effect even the lightest of armors, even if they were made with mithril. BUT! For the sake of argument, let's presume that it can affect one pound of the armor in question. Or, you know, it could always affect many weapons, presupposing they're light enough, and the wielder is kind enough to hold still for the length of time your trick would take. Or, if you're just trying to hit something with that kind of damage, okay, let's go with that.
3) It cannot deal damage or affect the concentration of spellcasters. In other words, it can't cause destruction. At all. But you sure could slightly warm up that one small part of your pants, if you needed. Or, if you really wanted to spend three minutes of solid casting on it, it could affect an entire armor for an hour. But, even if you could, you'd destroy the thing you're trying to affect long before then. The melting point of iron is only 2,800 degrees F. I don't know how you got the 5,900 degrees as the degree to which prestidigitation could go (presuming 100 degrees per casting, it could get up to 6,000 in an hour of solid casting... but that's a pretty big presumption), but if you allow that each casting increases the temperature by 100 degrees (which follows no logic according to anything ever implied or stated by any spell ever), you'd destroy whatever you're trying to heat long before you got to the point of hitting 5,900 degrees. Point in fact, heating it up that fast (if we're running with this logic, let's run with it) will make it really dangerous for you to be anywhere near, including within the 10 feet required for casting (or even 20 feet, if you go with extend spell, which means it's no longer a cantrip, which means it's no longer at will). I mean, even stone tends to have a melting point of roughly 2,000 degrees or so, so you'll be dealing with a liquid puddle (which changes your target values) long before you're dealing with anything else. But with raising the temperature at those rates, you're going to hit it so fast with so much energy that it's going to blow up. On you. All one pound of whatever it was that you were trying to destroy.
Added: Endure Elements only goes up to 140 degrees, and does so specifically because it doesn't protect from heat/fire damage. That means that anything over 140 is considered enough to deal damage. Given that definition, Prestidigitation can't heat something from 65 to 165. At most that'd be from 65 to 140, which is a 25 degree difference (so 75 degrees per casting, instead of 100). Even so, that doesn't make sense to continue that way. Looking at energy, how it scales (and costs ever-higher amounts to increase heat in a system above a certain amount, basically a hyperbolic graph), it's pretty clear that Prestidigitation has one of four interpretive limitations:
1) it can't ever heat something up over 140 (thus it's unable to deal damage) - this is, by far, the most likely scenario;
2) it provides a limited, set energy value per casting to continue to heat something up, which, depending on the circumstances, can only increase to a certain maximum temperature anyway, no matter what, though could potentially pose dangers later (though this interpretation also comes with the problem that you'd be putting in a whole lot of effort over a long period of time to do what you could do with one round of a first level spell (and not a very good one, I might add) - this goes against the expressed "it can't damage stuff", though;
3) you can't heat more than one pound at a time, but you'd have to warm an entire object in order to increase the over-all temperature of an object; so 25 rounds of casting later, you can re-warm that targeted armor to the next iteration up - this is unlikely, but I could see a case being made for this wording, although it either reaches an upper limit (see number 1) or it violates the expressed wording of "it can't cause damage";
4) you can't heat something up compared to it's surrounding starting values - which may or may not violate the expressed wording of "it can't cause damage".
Also, worth noting:
It can chill, warm, or flavor 1 pound of nonliving material.
"Warm" is very different, in connotation, from "Heat".
But me? I'd rule that it can be done, even if it's not RAW. I mean, most people wouldn't be stupid enough to try, but it's just one more reason for mages to seem creepy and be untrusted by the general populace (especially sorcerers). I mean, yeah, almost no one's actually going to try doing something that dumb that would hurt themselves, but you never know... 'cause this one might just be that one guy who decides to try it and cause another disaster, like the Great Fire of 4693...
I have always interpreted presdigitation to work in a similar manner as the light cantrip - you can only have one in operation at a time.
It last's an hour, but you can have it do all kinds of odd jobs, cleaning things, cooling your ale, flavoring the aweful inn food, etc...
With the above interpretation, I think that most of the issues up thread are addressed - no statues levitated for a moment, no melted iron doors, etc...
Broken? That' what Silence is for...it's the anti-caster spell. Silence does not negate or dispell spells it blocks out active direction of spells. So if you're silenced.... get out of the silenced area. The spell does have limited area and if the opposing caster is going to spam silence, then he's just as locked up as you are. If the spell does not normally require verbal components, than gestures should suffice. Or may be ruled to suffice in other spells as well.The point is that spells that require direction don't operate psionics style; That direction should involve one or more verbal or somatic functions.
I don't know... sounds like you have silence taking over for anti-magic, or even Dispel...
If a 2nd level spell can shut down anything with a duration... then why learn the higher level ones?
Silence at least USED to be designed to stop a caster BEFORE he cast his spell... not shut it down afterwards.
As much as I hate psionics... between a caster's intelligence, will saves and constant concentration checks... And the lack of rules stating he needs compontents AFTER the spell is cast...
an arguement CAN be made that a LOT of this is pure willpower fueling his spell.
I just have a hard time seeing a wizard yelling out to the flaming sphere... "Burn THAT guy... Roll 20 degrees to the Left... NO RIGHT!!! Up the wall... and get the one in the Blue jacket!!! No BLUE jacket!!!"
pointing maybe... but verbal??
Prestidigitation requires verbal and somatic components to cast. For me, I infer from that that each time you do something once the cantrip is active, you must also supply a verbal and somatic component. So cast your Prestidigitation, and then for the next hour you can do as much prestidigitating with it as you want, but each time you do, you have to say a word or two and point at the affected object.
I imagine casters riding summoned mounts to look rather silly with those rules.
Instead of doing what a normal rider has to do when directing his mount he always has to point somewhere and yell: "This way, faster" or "Now that way and slow down a little".
Could Prestidigitation create ice? I mean, it can "chill", but does that suffice to create a reasonable large block of ice? 'cause I always wondered where you're supposed to get an "ice sculpture" for the Simulacrum spell.
At least prestidigitation could help keeping the ice sculpture from melting during the 12 hour casting time.
That is if you got someone who casts it once per hour.