Since my game groups DM bought the advanced player guide for our pdf games, I thought of my next character being an arcane archer, so I went through lots of builds here on the forums but didn't really find any Zen Archer/AA build's, has anyone tried such a build or do people think they suck?
My character idea would be something like this:
Race: Half-Elf
Stats: Str: 14 Dex: 14 Con:12 Wis: 16 (18 from +2 stat choice) Int 14 Cha:10 (Now these would be the hopes of my Dice rolls, but we're not sure if we're switching to point buy with 20 points to use then it would be like: Str:12 Dex:14 con:11 Wis:16 int:12 cha:10
Classes: Monk 7 or 8/Wizard 1-3/AA -> 10 lvls.
The weapon of choice would be Composite longbow/Longbow.
Since at 3rd monk lvl you gain Zen Archery allowing wis as your attack roll I find it great and nice to gain Wep focus and Wep Spec + point blank shot for free easing the way to gain AA requirements fullfilled.
Any thoughts of the idea? Ideas how to change, make better and different, what feats and so on?
A build if anyone has time to be helpfull :)?
Seems like if u set it up right it'd be good, but I think a fighter for the base archer class is better. Imo
Hm... this idea seems to be quite interesting. Need to dig deeper in it since don´t have my books front of me. Will be back later with deeper information but I could say that seems to be okey.
As you are going to wizard, you could choose from APG a Transmutation: get +1 to Wis/Dex, get the Gravity Bow spell 1st lvl, Owls Wisdom as 2nd lvl spell and all these should stack with your Flurry of XXXX from Zen archer plus can´t forget the AA ability to enchance.
... So at lvl 10 AA with Flurry of Arrows... yeap, 4-6arrows with Flaming/Ice Burst is really nice :P With all those addiotional bonuses included hehe. Add also to that Composite Longbow (+4) str... and there you go.
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The man in cleaning duty of random dungeon
Since at 3rd monk lvl you gain Zen Archery allowing wis as your dmg roll
Thats wrong. Just Wis instead of dex for ur attackbonus. No dmg
Thats wrong. Just Wis instead of dex for ur attackbonus. No dmg
Since at 3rd monk lvl you gain Zen Archery allowing wis as your dmg roll
Ah yes pure mistake on my part, was supposed to say attack rolls, so does dex give dmg bonus with bows then?
They calculate the AB but what about DB?
Hm... this idea seems to be quite interesting. Need to dig deeper in it since don´t have my books front of me. Will be back later with deeper information but I could say that seems to be okey.
As you are going to wizard, you could choose from APG a Transmutation: get +1 to Wis/Dex, get the Gravity Bow spell 1st lvl, Owls Wisdom as 2nd lvl spell and all these should stack with your Flurry of XXXX from Zen archer plus can´t forget the AA ability to enchance.
... So at lvl 10 AA with Flurry of Arrows... yeap, 4-6arrows with Flaming/Ice Burst is really nice :P With all those addiotional bonuses included hehe. Add also to that Composite Longbow (+4) str... and there you go.
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The man in cleaning duty of random dungeon
Sounds real nice and thanks for the advice, btw doesn't +4 Comp LB require 18 str to use it without any penalties? but a bull's str spell would do that? wouldn't it?
yes, 18 is required.
I suggest that if you reach higher levels, just get the +5 composite longbow (+4 str) later when you got all those nice magic items (belt of physical might / perfection) and headband of inspired wisdom etc
At that point, you get all that so easily.
So, get the Comp. Longbow +4 str later levels since you dont need it at lower levels. +1 at start is enough. 12 str for starting PC is enough and rest comes automatically later :)
Also from Wizard plus +4 Bull Str-> yah, it will help you at beginning. Just save it for fights or boss fights etc or carry 2 bow since for boss fights, you can stay behind, swap, cast bull str and bum, improving your damage quite alot for +2-+3 dmg
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The man in cleaning duty of random dungeon
Yes, it will help you plus yes, 18 is required.
I suggest that if you reach higher levels, just get the +5 composite longbow (+4 str) later when you got all those nice magic items (belt of physical might / perfection) and headband of inspired wisdom etc
At that point, you get all that so easily.
So, get the Comp. Longbow +4 str later levels since you dont need it at lower levels at all so much. +1 at start is enough. 12 str for starting PC is enough and rest comes automatically later :)
Alright thanks for the help :) but doesn't it only last for 24 hours the buffs? The book says Treat this as a temporary ability bonus for the first 24 hours? What does it exactly mean? that then they become natural bonuses?
You have to wait for 24-hours until you gain the effect of +2 / +4 / +6. After 24-hours, your stats will raise by +2/ +4 / +6 according to item you have.
If you remove it, you loose the stats. Then you have to again put it on and wait another 24-hours to gain them
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The man in cleaning duty of random dungeon
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One of the hiccups with a Zen Archer/Arcane Archer build is that you wind up losing some of the Flurry of Blows from the monk as you specifically need monk levels for it to increase. Breakpoints are lvl 8 and 15 (when they get to add additional attacks to their flurries).
So at most you probably only want a 1 level dip into Wizard. So the earliest you can take AA would be at lvl 10 (Monk 8/Wiz 1 = BAB +6).
Another cute point is that it has been stated that being an elf/half-elf should no longer be a requirement for AA.
As for build you want high Str/Wis (double 18's if you can get em!), Int 12.
So races that would have a bonus to either Str/Wis are good. Dwarf, 1/2 Elf, 1/2 Orc, Human are decent choices.
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Here is the link wrt the discussion about AA elf/half elf requirement.
While not officially FAQ'd, it is a pretty clear indication where the intent to go is.
I've played around a lot with multi-classing/prestige-classing out of the Zen Archer Monk at some point, but I found that nothing really seemed worth sacrificing levels of monk, because nothing seems to beat the increase in flurry of blows (if you let flurry of blows fall to the wayside, you'll have to pick up Rapid Shot and Manyshot as well; two feats you didn't need thanks to Flurry of Blows) you also give up Ki Points, abilities, AC, speed, awesome saves, and to a lesser extent, unarmed damage. (might come in handy with the ki ability the Zen Archer has.)
Personally, I like my Zen Archer Monk with WIS as his most important stat, (WIS determines your attack rolls, AC, CMD, Ki Points, Will Saves, Perception, and others) followed by DEX, then CON, then STR. Your AC could be comparable to most fighters if you can get your WIS and DEX high enough. High DEX increases that all important Initiative. With enough CON, you'll have a respectable amount of HP. With a high WIS, DEX, and CON combined with your monk saves, your saving throws should be AMAZING. ...and then STR for more damage. I should probably rate this higher, but considering the only thing it does is increase your damage, seems a little on the lower end of priorities. (Hopefully at least 14, though) Deadly Aim does a good job of increasing damage. (along with Weapon Specialization)
Oh, one more thing: Combat Patrol. Not sure how well this works out in practice, but it seems amazing in my mind. With the Zen Archer Monk's 9th level Bow AoO ability, you can run around the battlefield firing at whoever is in your threatened area. (Normally everyone within 5ft. Try using Enlarge Person to increase your threatened area, and then Combat Patrol gives 5ft more for every 5 BAB you have)
I've played around a lot with multi-classing/prestige-classing out of the Zen Archer Monk at some point, but I found that nothing really seemed worth sacrificing levels of monk, because nothing seems to beat the increase in flurry of blows (if you let flurry of blows fall to the wayside, you'll have to pick up Rapid Shot and Manyshot as well; two feats you didn't need thanks to Flurry of Blows) you also give up Ki Points, abilities, AC, speed, awesome saves, and to a lesser extent, unarmed damage. (might come in handy with the ki ability the Zen Archer has.)
Personally, I like my Zen Archer Monk with WIS as his most important stat, (WIS determines your attack rolls, AC, CMD, Ki Points, Will Saves, Perception, and others) followed by DEX, then CON, then STR. Your AC could be comparable to most fighters if you can get your WIS and DEX high enough. High DEX increases that all important Initiative. With enough CON, you'll have a respectable amount of HP. With a high WIS, DEX, and CON combined with your monk saves, your saving throws should be AMAZING. ...and then STR for more damage. I should probably rate this higher, but considering the only thing it does is increase your damage, seems a little on the lower end of priorities. (Hopefully at least 14, though) Deadly Aim does a good job of increasing damage. (along with Weapon Specialization)
Oh, one more thing: Combat Patrol. Not sure how well this works out in practice, but it seems amazing in my mind. With the Zen Archer Monk's 9th level Bow AoO ability, you can run around the battlefield firing at whoever is in your threatened area. (Normally everyone within 5ft. Try using Enlarge Person to increase your threatened area, and then Combat Patrol gives 5ft more for every 5 BAB you have)
Just thought I'd say that at the time of this post I didn't understand that your Flurry of Blows actually does improve even when you multi-class. (Although you still have to reach Monk 8 and Monk 15 to get the extra attacks) Still, I wouldn't really recommend multi-classing; however, it is more of an option than I had realized.
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Fighter-archer may be higher damage and to hit, but far lower survivabilty. Picture this (20 point build)
Dwarf Zen Archer
Str: 14
Int: 7
Wis: 20
Dex: 7
Con: 18
Chr: 5
All good saves, high hp, and +2 to most relevant saves (dwarf). Fighter drops to will saves mid to late levels... this guy has +9 to most will saves at 1st.
AC isn't exciting, but as an archer it doesn't need to be. You can alternatively lower Wis by 2 to raise dex by 6... certainly makes you better 1st 2 levels.
Regardless, I do believe Dwarves are by far the best zen archers. hP + build on saves = win.
One of the hiccups with a Zen Archer/Arcane Archer build is that you wind up losing some of the Flurry of Blows from the monk as you specifically need monk levels for it to increase. Breakpoints are lvl 8 and 15 (when they get to add additional attacks to their flurries).
So at most you probably only want a 1 level dip into Wizard. So the earliest you can take AA would be at lvl 10 (Monk 8/Wiz 1 = BAB +6).
Another cute point is that it has been stated that being an elf/half-elf should no longer be a requirement for AA.
As for build you want high Str/Wis (double 18's if you can get em!), Int 12.
So races that would have a bonus to either Str/Wis are good. Dwarf, 1/2 Elf, 1/2 Orc, Human are decent choices.
Yes that's true, but I don't actually like dwarves or orcs and RP wise I find being a half elf better, while also it won't be such a power house it could be, I find it above average, calling it a good dmg build in a sense, maybe not amazing but good enough and for my RP it's better this way.
Fighter-archer may be higher damage and to hit, but far lower survivabilty. Picture this (20 point build)
Dwarf Zen Archer
Str: 14
Int: 7
Wis: 20
Dex: 7
Con: 18
Chr: 5All good saves, high hp, and +2 to most relevant saves (dwarf). Fighter drops to will saves mid to late levels... this guy has +9 to most will saves at 1st.
AC isn't exciting, but as an archer it doesn't need to be. You can alternatively lower Wis by 2 to raise dex by 6... certainly makes you better 1st 2 levels.
Regardless, I do believe Dwarves are by far the best zen archers. hP + build on saves = win.
I'd sooner build like this in a 20 point buy:
Base:
Str 15, Dex 11, Con 15, Int 7, Wis 17, Cha 7
Then have him start out at middle age:
Str 14, Dex 10, Con 14, Int 8, Wis 18, Cha 8
Then add racial bonuses:
Str 14, Dex 10, Con 16, Int 8, Wis 20, Cha 6
...then give the rest of my stats to wisdom as he levels. I might switch Dex with Str or Con, actually, but that's probably just me. (Although people using Combat Patrol would definitely go for a higher Dex. Then again, Dwarves probably aren't the best patrol-ers. Meh.)
Dwarves probably are the best for any kind of Monk, but especially the Zen Archer (since strength isn't that big a deal) I usually stick with humans though. I like the extra speed and the feat. Skills are helpful too. But in terms of optimization, Dwarves are definitely better.
On a side note, does anyone have any ideas on how a Zen Archer should spend their feats? Outside of the bonus feats granted by the class and all of the feats gained by being a Zen Archer, I'd say the only mandatory feat would be Deadly Aim. The other 9 feats from leveling can be pretty much anything. (Related question: Should Zen Archers be doing any Combat Maneuvers? They lose the CMB ability that lets them have full BAB as a monk. Also, should a Zen Archer be taking any of the Critical Focus feats? Once again, having mid-BAB makes it seem like a poor option.)
What feats would you take?
It has been clarified many times by Paizo people on these boards that the monk levels stack with other class bab increases on your flurry. The reason that they say "monk levels" is just meant to say "rather than your monk bab." Thus AA bab bonus stacks with monk level for flurry attack bonus. You do, however, have to get the fourth level and 8th level increases in number of attacks by being a monk, since that is a special ability granted for being a monk (by giving flurry increases = to twf increases). Some searching should find the references fairly easily and you could print or send a link to your GM or something to make sure he or she is with you on this.
As for Wizard, may I suggest qualifying for AA with a single level of bard, arcane duellist variant. At first level you get arcane strike as a bonus feat which more-or-less negates the bab you lose for taking a level of an arcane class.
Since at 8th lvl monk has FOB 6/6/1/1 in the book, so let's say my character dings the lvl 15, now a lvl 15 monk has 6 FOB attacks but would my monk 8/bard 1/aa 6 have 6 flurry of blows attacks or do only the AB of those 4 FOB attacks increase with my normal AB?
It has been clarified many times by Paizo people on these boards that the monk levels stack with other class bab increases on your flurry. The reason that they say "monk levels" is just meant to say "rather than your monk bab." Thus AA bab bonus stacks with monk level for flurry attack bonus. You do, however, have to get the fourth level and 8th level increases in number of attacks by being a monk, since that is a special ability granted for being a monk (by giving flurry increases = to twf increases). Some searching should find the references fairly easily and you could print or send a link to your GM or something to make sure he or she is with you on this.
As for Wizard, may I suggest qualifying for AA with a single level of bard, arcane duellist variant. At first level you get arcane strike as a bonus feat which more-or-less negates the bab you lose for taking a level of an arcane class.
Since at 8th lvl monk has FOB 6/6/1/1 in the book, so let's say my character dings the lvl 15, now a lvl 15 monk has 6 FOB attacks but would my monk 8/bard 1/aa 6 have 6 flurry of blows attacks or do only the AB of those 4 FOB attacks increase with my normal AB?
From my understanding, neither. With Monk 8/Bard 1/Arcane Archer 6, your Flurry of Blows would look like this:
+12/+12/+7/+7/+2
You would get a 5th attack from having a high enough BAB, but you wouldn't get the 6th attack for having "Greater Two-Weapon Fighting" like a monk would.
From my understanding, neither. With Monk 8/Bard 1/Arcane Archer 6, your Flurry of Blows would look like this:
+12/+12/+7/+7/+2
You would get a 5th attack from having a high enough BAB, but you wouldn't get the 6th attack for having "Greater Two-Weapon Fighting" like a monk would.
Alright, thanks, but you pick bard? you did specify me for the 1 free feat which you gain and it also has more skill points than wizard but aren't wizard spells better for the purpose of AA? the progress is faster and also more spells?
I was just working on a Zen Archer build today, has to be the best alternate class template in the book. Great ideas on here to boot!
I am really liking my monk. He's the party scout and, via some good selections for traits, non-magical trapfinder and lockpicker. I got so many free feats that I have feats to burn. We're level 5...I would suggest skill focus: stealth as the pre-req for hellcat stealth to help you in scouting.
Also if you have a scouting 'buddy' (even if it is an animal companion or the like) consider getting lookout tactical feat for both of you. Being able to full attack in a surprise round (likely the one you started) can be insanely powerful, especially if you get initiative over them and thus get to full attack again...
-James
Wisdom of the flesh is a great trait for this as well. The bonus being that Irori is a great god for a monk. In my case, I took it for trapfinding rather than stealth, which could seem cheesy but I worked it into my background well enough.
As for playing well with others, you are correct that there is no serious synergy with group members, but just about any archer has that issue besides the bard. A ranged damage dealer rarely hurts the situation, though. In group fights you can always switch targets to kill whatever is closest to death. No party really needs an archer, but that's the curse of almost any "pure" striker type.
Our party actually has had many situations when a good ranged would have helped a lot ;) so that's one reason why I'm thinking of this.
Also it's good for hunting something.
So there's the Fighter(Bowman), Archery Ranger, Rogue(Sniper), Monk(Zen Archer), and the ever-present Cleric and Paladin, even before getting into Arcane Archer...
Oh my, that's a lot of hurt... Is there a Raging Archer build?
