Level-to-Age Rubrick


Pathfinder First Edition General Discussion

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Okay, first off, a lot of folks don't interpret level the same way as me, that's fine--but I crunched some numbers and found something really really fun and thought I'd share in the hopes that anyone who was curious would see how the numbers worked out.

Starting assumption: level is where a character is in their career, 1st level characters are fresh-faced 16 year old farmkids, 20th level characters are at the end of long careers and entering old age at 52 years old, hard and craggy with stories to tell from 32 years of adventuring.

So taking that assumption as true, and the number of XP needed to reach 20th level, then you can deduce that an average character gains (I believe--notes are home) 5025 XP a year, which breaks down to 14 a day. Now with the feast or famine nature of gaming it's probably more like weeks or months of 0-5 XP a day, between adventures and all, with something like two to three times that amount when they're actively involved in a campaign. By contrast, 200 XP a day (which is our group's usual per session reward) ends up leveling a character to 20 in about 2 years. The canon advancement as per 3.5 (300 x character level per session) results in a 20th level character in two and a half months!

But assuming a steady diet of 14 average XP a day, you can find the following. A PC will hit level 2 after about a month and a half of adventuring, level 4 in just under a year, level 10 in 8 years.

Using that rubrick, you can use the campaign timeline to figure out roughly when a given PC was born and what he's been up to until the start of the game.

This is obviously assuming human characters, the starting ages are obviously very different for other races.

Just some cool stuff I figured out that I'd always wanted some clear insight into, and that I just figured out how to get at. Hope it helps!


I found this quite interesting. I've always been bothered by the rapid advancement PCs experience. More than three levels in a single year seems implausible to me.

The one problem I have is that in my vision of the game, most people never attain level 11. The culmination of a full career brings you to level 10, and many people may age and die without attaining even that!

However, I do rather like the idea of leveling with time. What would you recommend for that kind of system? Perhaps 1 XP per day? That seems quite logical, as you would never attain higher levels without doing some remarkable things... I suppose also that a very lazy character may get 0 XP for a day squandered...

Contributor

Reminds me of this article I wrote for 3.5:

A Theory About Peasants


The problem here is the system gets very awkward in the face of other races:

A human and an elf party together and the dynamic duo goes on to become a bit famous and a bit infamous as they lead their exploits through the land. After one year the human is 4th level and the elf is half-way through level 1.


LoreKeeper wrote:

The problem here is the system gets very awkward in the face of other races:

A human and an elf party together and the dynamic duo goes on to become a bit famous and a bit infamous as they lead their exploits through the land. After one year the human is 4th level and the elf is half-way through level 1.

There is room for some interesting throwback to earlier editions, where other races progressed more slowly (or so I recall... who remembers those stinky old editions anyway).


the 16 year old farmboy is neither a player character nor an adventurer. he is a first level npc commoner.

want an example of a 20th level character?

any major member of the bleach cast!

anyone from Dragonball Z!

the main heroines of Magical girl Lyrical Nanoha!

the major characters from Slayers!

any devil fruit user from one piece!

any member of the straw hat pirate crew!

the major characters of Disgaea!

Grand Lodge

This is one of the reasons I have discarded experience as a leveling mechanic.


Shuriken Nekogami wrote:

the 16 year old farmboy is neither a player character nor an adventurer. he is a first level npc commoner.

want an example of a 20th level character?

the major characters from Slayers!

In fact, according to the official d20 supplement for Slayers, at the end of the third series Lina, Gourry, and Zelgadis are all level 23, Amelia is 21 (level 21 you sick bastards) and Xellos a CR 35 outsider.

Dark Archive Contributor

Shuriken Nekogami wrote:

the 16 year old farmboy is neither a player character nor an adventurer. he is a first level npc commoner.

want an example of a 20th level character?

any major member of the bleach cast!

anyone from Dragonball Z!

the main heroines of Magical girl Lyrical Nanoha!

the major characters from Slayers!

any devil fruit user from one piece!

any member of the straw hat pirate crew!

the major characters of Disgaea!

SWEET! I understood exactly 2 of those examples! I'm not old yet!

Ooo, my 20th level-ers...

Conan
Raistlin
Heracules
Maybe Buffy...

RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16

Time to link this.

Liberty's Edge Contributor

tejón wrote:
Time to link this.

Wow. That was really interesting. Thanks for linking that, tejón.


I have seen this article before, but one thing always irked me:

D&D: Calibrating Your Expectations wrote:


But even casual research quickly reveals that 4 lbs. is almost exactly what historical long swords weighed. The essay “What Did Historical Swords Weigh?” by J. Clements is an excellent resource for this. People didn’t make slow, heavy weapons and awkward armor because their lives depended on not making weapons and armor like that.
What did Historical Swords Weigh? wrote:


...the lengthy catalog of swords from the famed Wallace Collection Museum in London readily lists dozens of fine specimens among which it is difficult to find any weighing in excess of 4 pounds.

And in the NEXT FREAKING PARAGRAPH:

What did Historical Swords Weigh? wrote:


"Medieval Swords are neither unwieldably heavy nor all alike - the average weight of any one of normal size is between 2.5 lb. and 3.5 lbs. Even the big hand-and-a-half 'war' swords rarely weigh more than 4.5 lbs.

Apparently his research could have afforded to be slightly more in-depth, like mine, which involved knowing what the words "difficult to find any" mean and reading the next paragraph.

Then there's the part where he attributes world-changing discoveries to high skill checks. Please. Don't.


Madcap Storm King wrote:

..good stuff..quote]

+1

It's interesting but seriously flawed.

Attempting to map a system that is intended as a simplification of a few real-world systems onto the real world without allowing the systems encountered in the real-world to influence the simplified system is..

-.o!

..anyhoo..

Thank you for the rubric... rubic.. ruby.. thing..y Grimcleaver.

..and for those that say it breaks down with non-humans: Maybe so, but personally I've always figured that elves are in no rush to learn anything so would seemingly level slower to mortal perceptions..

I.E An elf living for 600 years would still be level 20 after 52 years because they spend a serious amount of time doing jack, in an xp generating way, unless pressured/the situation calls for action -because they can afford to take it easy...

Lazy bastards...

*shakes fist*

Grand Lodge

Shuriken Nekogami wrote:

the 16 year old farmboy is neither a player character nor an adventurer. he is a first level npc commoner.

want an example of a 20th level character?

any major member of the bleach cast!

anyone from Dragonball Z!

the main heroines of Magical girl Lyrical Nanoha!

the major characters from Slayers!

any devil fruit user from one piece!

any member of the straw hat pirate crew!

the major characters of Disgaea!

I'm actually going to have to say no to the Nanoha crew being classified as merely 20th level. They are simply too incredibly powerful. They can do things in their normal shots that level 20 characters require their largest spells for.

Let's just say the average ship in the Pathfinder book is made of wood, and is 6 inches thick on average, that means every 5x5 foot square of a ship has 60 hp and 5 hardness, meaning that the hardest-hitting spell in the lists, can destroy roughly 3 squares (admittedly destruction isn't an area of effect spell, but it's the meanest spell I could find) Nanoha Takamachi destroys sections of magically-enhanced battleships large enough to drive tanks through (12ftx8ft), on her normal moves, this basically means she is doing damage on the order of thousands on her normal shots, and can take such hits to the face and shrug them off. She would fire a single shot at a Pathfinder warship and utterly destroy it, depending on the shot it may just sink, vaporize, of explode.

Same with Slayers, especially Lina and her peers.

I have issues with the power levels shown in Dragon Ball Z, there's something wonky about the setting that doesn't strike me as being right, it's like the landscape is made of wafers unless they are being used to injure characters, at which point the landscape has the consistency of tungsten.

Grand Lodge

Evil Lincoln wrote:

I found this quite interesting. I've always been bothered by the rapid advancement PCs experience. More than three levels in a single year seems implausible to me.

The one problem I have is that in my vision of the game, most people never attain level 11. The culmination of a full career brings you to level 10, and many people may age and die without attaining even that!

However, I do rather like the idea of leveling with time. What would you recommend for that kind of system? Perhaps 1 XP per day? That seems quite logical, as you would never attain higher levels without doing some remarkable things... I suppose also that a very lazy character may get 0 XP for a day squandered...

I actually tend to think of the level gain period as the combination of the fast ambitious rise of youth... and the Peter Principle. You rise to the point that you're destined to be and then you give up the childish hobby of adventure and take your place in the adult world. as whatever level you obtain. YOu might gain one or more during the rest of your life.. you might lose three due to inactivty or abandonment. Referring to one of the examples listed in a link... Einstein like most physicists accomplished his great works in his 20's and 30's. He refined them afterwards, but by the time had come to Princeton, he was already in the retirement age of his profession.

It also depends on the world concept. While in the Forgotten Realms, you may be nothing if you don't reach 20, in Eberron and I suspect, Golarian to some extent, making 10-12 puts you among the elite in population. I suspect that the fingers of a hand may very well outnumber the amount of background NPCs that hit 20 or even close to it.


Kais86 wrote:

I have issues with the power levels shown in Dragon Ball Z, there's something wonky about the setting that doesn't strike me as being right, it's like the landscape is made of wafers unless they are being used to injure characters, at which point the landscape has the consistency of tungsten.

It's just a concequence of everyone being around level NINE THOOOOOOUSAAAAAAAAND!!!


Found the rubrick discussion interesting. Thanks for that.

I like the idea of a system for explaining xp for the common man. I would have it generate slower. IMO adventuring hero's should reach for the sky in relation to levels, the average person probably doesn't exceed... 5th, 6th level. Certainly not everyone in town of an older age group. Some sort of 'gatekeeper' required for xp @ 'higher' lvl.

Grand Lodge

jody mcadoo wrote:

Found the rubrick discussion interesting. Thanks for that.

I like the idea of a system for explaining xp for the common man. I would have it generate slower. IMO adventuring hero's should reach for the sky in relation to levels, the average person probably doesn't exceed... 5th, 6th level. Certainly not everyone in town of an older age group. Some sort of 'gatekeeper' required for xp @ 'higher' lvl.

The "average" person never gets beyond first!

RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16

Follow-up -- I agree the article I linked has some real flaws. But I also agree that there's no way in hell Conan is 20th level. ;)

I really like the article SKR linked, too... even if it's equally flawed in the assumption that medieval peasants have a monthly rent/wage cycle like the modern proletariat!


+1 on the average person.

I'm sure you understand what I meant.


LazarX wrote:
The "average" person never gets beyond first!

Hmm. Taking the NPCs from the various adventure paths as an indication, I'd have to disagree with that.

I mean, we can all agree the RAW system is not realistic, nor should it be. I think Grim's idea is neat in the abstract, but doesn't make for a very playable game either.

Leveling up at story points is a good compromise, but even so I have PCs in my Runelords game who have gained ten levels in a single year — and that is with me trying like the Hells to slow the pace of advancement.

In short, there's nothing to be done about it, at least not if modules and APs expect you to level 2 or more times each. le sigh

Homebrew games, though, that's another possibility.

Grand Lodge

Evil Lincoln wrote:
LazarX wrote:
The "average" person never gets beyond first!

Hmm. Taking the NPCs from the various adventure paths as an indication, I'd have to disagree with that.

I mean, we can all agree the RAW system is not realistic, nor should it be. I think Grim's idea is neat in the abstract, but doesn't make for a very playable game either.

Leveling up at story points is a good compromise, but even so I have PCs in my Runelords game who have gained ten levels in a single year — and that is with me trying like the Hells to slow the pace of advancement.

In short, there's nothing to be done about it, at least not if modules and APs expect you to level 2 or more times each. le sigh

Homebrew games, though, that's another possibility.

Those NPC's by definition are not ordinary people for the most part...they're folks caught up in extraordinary events.

Think of it this way... the Adventure Path which are designed to level characters up to 15th are like seasons of Avatar, the Last Airbender think of the progression the characters make in a single season... from Bender novitates to masters of thier art. (in some cases acheiving levels of mastery in a fairly short space of days)

Thing is if you want to slow the pace of advance, doing so in a Paizo adventure path means the PC's are going to snuff it rather than complete the path, unless you massively rework it. Homebrew campaigns are really the only answer if you want to tailor the pace of adventure and advancement.

Grand Lodge

Shuriken Nekogami wrote:

the 16 year old farmboy is neither a player character nor an adventurer. he is a first level npc commoner.

want an example of a 20th level character?

any major member of the bleach cast!

anyone from Dragonball Z!

the main heroines of Magical girl Lyrical Nanoha!

the major characters from Slayers!

any devil fruit user from one piece!

any member of the straw hat pirate crew!

the major characters of Disgaea!

Anime and D20 simply... don't mix. Go with the nonD20 version of Big Eyes Small Mouth if you want to RPG anime characters. The class level structure of D+D simply does not belong in anime of the above types.


LazarX wrote:
Those NPC's by definition are not ordinary people for the most part...they're folks caught up in extraordinary events.

Right, but let's just take the population of Sandpoint or Magnimar... or a randomly generated town population from the 3.5 DMG.

Even there, a considerable portion of the mundane population has a level higher than 1. Town leadership and major figures often reach as far as level 9. It seems like Sandpoint has quite a few 4-6th level NPCs.

That's okay with me. There should be some variation in experience amongst the NPCs. To my mind, attaining a level above 9 is really something reserved for remarkable characters... and I believe that's the standard Pathfinder uses for NPCs in adventure paths as well, I think I saw James Jacobs say so on the forums a long while ago.

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 16

The rubrick above was quite good. I consider 'our world' to be EL6 at best.

Conan and Batman are level 6, not 20. They've got awesome stats and EL6 feat buy, but they are level 6.

Superman is like level 4...one of the best news reporters around (level 3 expert) with a level of fighter from training with Batman. He's got the 'Kryptonian under a Yellow Sun' template, is all.

A lot of cartoon/anime 'overpoweredness' comes from massive stat buffs characters don't have in game. Throwing around massively overpowered blasts of energy is a matter of assigning overpowered feats and class abilities. Stick them in a normal world with normal rules, and they suck. It'd be like giving all your characters the 'Paragon' template...no, they aren't high level, they are high CR. And if their epic spells create epic damage, that's what Epic Spells do! Anime characters hitting a standard campaign would first fizzle, and then die...they can't DO what they do in cartoons in 'our world'.

As for xp...assuming 14 xp a day doesn't really work, because higher level characters get more xp for making higher level contested checks, and no xp for mundane things which low levels DO get xp for. THe xp system is designed so that you advance levels at the same rate as your last level.
========
AD&D, the original, DID NOT USE this xp system. Basically, it took twice the xp of the prior level to gain a level (with some exceptions), and all xp was fixed. Yes, your level 10 fighter could level up killing 1 HD orcs. It just would take him 10,000 orcs. He's got better things to do if he wants to level.

This was more realistic from the 1 xp/day scenario...nobody was going to get high level with gradual xp. 1 xp/day gets you to level 2 in 3 years in 3E. It would take 6 years in AD&D, and the next level? 12 more. Level 1's and 2's were the rule unless you were engaged in an xp heavy profession!

==
Also, AD&D had a cut-off...Name Level. Name level was the place where people sat back and retired to be nobles. You attracted a bunch of plebes to do your work for you, and started governing instead of adventuring.

Elves, Dwarves, Gnomes and Halflings were assumed to have much stronger racial bonds then humans, and when they hit Name level, basically went home and took care of their people. They didn't have the drive and ambition of humans...they lived mostly in an EL NAme Level world. Humans got massive levels...the other races got flexibility and low level awesomeness in return. It meant the best of human heroes were indeed the best, but the average Dwarf or Elf kicked the crap out of the average human...which was pretty much how things were portrayed in fiction.

Now,on the flip side, you have to realize that D&D is skewed towards the magical classes/races in terms of longevity. Clerics and Mages can rely on magic to extend out their lifespans. Warriors and Rogues cannot DO this. It's both realistic and unsettling. CLerics and mages get more powerful as they get older, because spellcasting is based on mental traits. Rogues and Warriors get weaker, because their power is physical, and they have no capability to stave off old age. This is exemplified by Forgotten Realms, where you trip over archmages on every corner, who are obsessed about longevity, but clerics who hit those levels tend to be called home by their gods, and level 20 melee/rogue types are extremely rare. (I think I've seen maybe 3 post-20 non-casters in FR).

As a corollary to this, that's why you can and should see more high level spellcasters then other classes. They live longer, and get more powerful with age. Even as NPC's, they've had time to gain levels.

It's also VERY hard to kill higher level characters. The 'level charts by population' are a guideline in theory only. Actually, as soon as you reach 9th level, you are probably only going to die of old age or really bad luck. Your friend the priest will raise you from the dead, you'll pay him back, and you'll continue on. Given the massive numbers of low level warriors, high level warriors can and should be all over the place...once they hit 9th, they are going to stick around until they get too old to swing a blade. Plus, raising your 7-8th level minions from the dead is a better way to earn their loyalty then most I can think of. 5000 gp to resurrect a 9th+ level fighter is a GREAT investment for the fighter or for whoever Raises him.

==Aelryinth

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 16

Also, one more point...humans in d20 live in magic universes. They'll level because they have to, to survive. If they are fighting statistically superior Orcs, they are going to hit level 2 just to stay even...but unless they are pushed, that's going to be the base, and they won't rise much further.

If they are fighting gnolls all the time, humans are going to end up level 3.

If it's ogres, level 4's, 5's adn 6's are going to be all over the place, or humans will just be extinct.

Humans adapt by leveling. Other races adapt with stats and racial hit dice and racial abilities. A Gnoll who can slaughter his way through his enemies with just base racial hit dice has no need or desire to level. If he keeps getting his ass kicked, now he's got incentive.

This mechanic works for low level demihumans, too - they are going to be good enough to best their average enemies, and really not any better. Add their better racial abilities to the mix, and yes, they are going to be better then average humans, which is fine...there are more humans and human heroes will outlevel their average heroes, which balances the scales.

==Aelryinth

Sovereign Court

I am a pedant, probably posting because others have imitated OP

It is rubric, there is no K in the word rubric, it is not a type of pitiful brick.

[/pedant]

Edit: Absolutely right, Evil Lincoln, a regrettable slip.

Now corrected, thankyou.


GeraintElberion wrote:

I am a pendant, probably posting because others have imitated OP

It is rubric, there is no K in the word rubric, it is not a type of pitiful brick.

[/pedant]

A pedant is spelled with only one "n". You are correcting another person's spelling, not dangling from about their neck. </righteous condescension>

Grand Lodge

I love this thread so much.


GeraintElberion wrote:

Edit: Absolutely right, Evil Lincoln, a regrettable slip.

Now corrected, thankyou.

All in good humor! ;)

Sovereign Court

Evil Lincoln wrote:
GeraintElberion wrote:

Edit: Absolutely right, Evil Lincoln, a regrettable slip.

Now corrected, thankyou.

All in good humor! ;)

Or humour...

I just realised that there could be somewhere (US, Australia?) where rubrick is correct!

The Exchange

If it's in the US or Australia, it is automatically incorrect.

Grand Lodge

Aubrey the Malformed wrote:
If it's in the US or Australia, it is automatically incorrect.

There is no correct way to spell. Rule Zero. :P

Sovereign Court

TriOmegaZero wrote:
There is no correct way to spell. Rule Zero. :P

"I have nothing but contempt for anyone who can spell a word only one way." — Attributed variously to Thomas Jefferson, Andrew Jackson, Mark Twain, G.K. Chesterton, and W.C. Fields


I generally add 3 years per level to starting age for NPC's. Works ok for a rough guide although if I have a different concept in mind I'll just give them whatever age I feel. These are exceptional people or beings though.


Regarding the anime character bits, I'll agree on Bleach, DBZ, and Slayers (end of the series at least). I'll pass on Nanoha, having not seen it.

But Devil Fruit users, Straw Hat Pirates, and Disgaea characters?

No. Flat out wrong.

If you assume a random devil fruit user is level 20, then the one peice world has a level spectrum going into the multiple hundreds. Lets narrow it down and say the powerful DF users are level 20, like Enel or Aokiji.

More likely, but still unlikely, as there are characters that are significantly stronger than them.

At best, in the current arc of the manga, The straw hat pirates are approaching level 12. Most of their big foes are currently CR10 to 18 (a CR 10 is bad news for a lone level 12 character, especially if its a "counter" to the character's skills). And a CR18 can easily wipe the floor with a level 12 party, if simply through higher DCs on abilities (Kuma's rejection teleporting).

Disgaea's level system is its own abstract, so comparing it to D&D is apples to oranges. World of Warcraft is an easier comparison, since it has similar "big bads" like ancient dragons, powerful outsiders, legendary heroes/villains. I usually divide the WoW character level by five to get the D&D level. Yes, that means Onyxia was origionally taken down by level 12 characters. But let me remind you, it was 40 level 12 characters, who had to be well geared, and all working together. The tank had a dedicated healer because three hits would kill him outright. WoW converts to D&D very sensibly, it just requires admission of the raid concept. Disgaea is harder to quantify because the main story component of the game can be easily completed by level 100-120. Its only the bonus and secret bosses that require level 500, 1000, or 5000. Also, Laharl is the "special" protagonist with abilities beyond the "normal" created characters, but even then, his abilities can all be easily mimicked with Tome of Battle manuvers by 15th level at the latest (assuming story Laharl, not grind to beat the optional boss Laharl).

Finally, Bleach and DBZ (and Slayers to some Degree) only force the level 20 issue because of collateral damage. Remove the collateral damage, and power levels become much more reasonable. But this is understandable, an early concept taught in comic illustration is that the way the enviorment reacts to a character is the best method to describe a character. If a 70 pound girl punches a charging bull and the bull flies backwards to hit the wall, you understand the girl is strong. Collateral damage in anime is the medium for getting the point across of "this character is strong".

For what its worth, next time a fifth level wizard drops a fireball, (5d6, average 15 damage) calculate its effects on the enviorment, say in a forest (trees and bushes, wood:hardness 5, fire cut in half (15/2-7) so 2 points of damage get through. Wood has 10hp per inch of thickness, so anything one fifth of an inch or less (leaves, small twigs, all grass/moss/flowers) is obliterated. If a fireball does 20hp after enviromental effects (which would require base damage of 50, common from empowered or maximized 10th level casters) that destroys 2 inches of material, from point of exposure. Effects that don't originate from a single point, like Firestorm, would do the damage to every surface, thus burning from both sides to burn through 4 inches of material. At 2 inches, most saplings are incinerated, and all except the most robust and healthy trees will recover from the obliteration of all their leaves, outlying branches, and bark.

And thats with fireball. For real collateral damage, use acid or sonic. The Shout spell can blow through walls with ease.


The Black Bard wrote:
The Shout spell can blow through walls with ease.

And it is also much more effective when you use it on outsiders with the lawful and evil subtypes. But only if you be strong, laugh and...


Evil Lincoln wrote:


The one problem I have is that in my vision of the game, most people never attain level 11. The culmination of a full career brings you to level 10, and many people may age and die without attaining even that!

No problem. Just halve the per session XP from 14 to 7 and you should end up about where you want them to be. Haven't actually crunched the numbers for that one, but as figured a PC hits level 20 at 53 years--so if you halve the amount of XP per day it should make 10th level close to the apex (granted the XP curve from one level to the next is exponential so you won't get a straight level 10 at 53...but it should be ballpark.)

Evil Lincoln wrote:


However, I do rather like the idea of leveling with time. What would you recommend for that kind of system? Perhaps 1 XP per day? That seems quite logical, as you would never attain higher levels without doing some remarkable things... I suppose also that a very lazy character may get 0 XP for a day squandered...

The numbers break down to an average of 14 XP/day. Granted people aren't hard adventuring every day of their life--a lot of time is spent doing other things--so there's a ton of wiggle room. I'd figure something like 50 XP a session give or take for awesome or lame sessions should make sense. That said, at that point things become pretty arbitrary. I mean how much of a PC's life is downtime? Depending on how you answer that question should really determine the multiplier on XP when a PC is out on campaign.


Sorry if I miss anyone else in the following, just let me know if you have a specific question...

"But...it's FANTASY, leveling up shouldn't have to make sense! You're fighting orcs! Look there's a dragon!"

Like I said at the outset, there's different styles of play. Ours tends to be a little closer to the vest (which tends to be nicely in keeping with the less VWAKOOM! nature of the Pathfinder setting). I don't really see ANY Dragonball/Bleach type folks in my games at all. Most folks feel pretty baseline, like Valeros or Kyra. If you want a boingy anime game then you're probably not going to want any kind of rubric (see I spelled it right this time!) to get in the way of your fun. Whatever. My hope here was to address this to folks who are interested in grounding their settings in a bit of vorthos-school verisimilitude. If you don't then go do what you want. Ain't gonna' stop you.

Oh and if I misspelled VWAKOOM!...I most sincerely appologize.


LoreKeeper wrote:

The problem here is the system gets very awkward in the face of other races:

A human and an elf party together and the dynamic duo goes on to become a bit famous and a bit infamous as they lead their exploits through the land. After one year the human is 4th level and the elf is half-way through level 1.

Here's how I calibrate for other characters (granted there's a lot of stuff about how fantasy races work that's just weird, so YMMV).

Starting age: Take fantasy critter age as the starting point rather than 16. So for dwarves that's like 50, for elves that's like 200 I think. From there it's the same as humans: two and a half months later they reach level 2; after about 6 months they hit level 3; so on until they hit level 20 at 32 years of adventuring. What you want to do after this is kind of up to you.

Myself, I take the beginning of the old age bracket as retirement age for whatever race--it's their level "20". Take their retirement age (1st year of old bracket) and crunch the XP/year from 20th level to the right age and then look on the epic level charts (or just work out the progression yourself) to see what level they end up at. So while humans retire at 20th level (53ish), other races retire at whatever power level their lifespan allows.

Haven't run the numbers, but it seems like it should work fine.


This reminds me of the system that I created for handling NPC/passive advancement in my own setting a few years back:
Passive XP Gain over Time: "You learn something new every day..."

As for Bleach, 20th level is just the beginning. >:)


For me the speed at which players level up if constantly adventuring is just fine. My best example is Frodo. How long in world time did it actually take him to go from 1st level commoner to legendary hero? Same for same, merry, and pippen. The whole LOTR Trilogy happens over like 3 years at most. Its like a year and a half from the point where frodo sets out to just after the scouring of the shire.

The idea that someone would adventure constantly for their whole lifetime is madness. Either they have long spans between adventures (and thus dont level up so fast in terms of world time) or they retire relatively early in life and open up a tavern with thier old adventuring sword hanging over the bar.


Kolokotroni wrote:
My best example is Frodo. How long in world time did it actually take him to go from 1st level commoner to legendary hero? Same for same, merry, and pippen. The whole LOTR Trilogy happens over like 3 years at most.

It does happen over a short period of time, and Frodo is a figure of legend by the end, however he does not have any great martial or magical powers. He is not legendary for his power, but for his fortitude of mind.

I would propose that Frodo may have reached the 3rd or 4th level by the end of his adventures, and probably in an NPC class. He had little skill in combat, no magical aptitude, and relied entirely on his racially nimble frame and small size. He was excellent at hiding, and his Will saves -- I mean, come on! -- he resisted the One Ring of Power for two years or more. Incredible.

But over level 10? I do not think so at all.

Silver Crusade

SeanKReynolds's theory is interesting.

The way I tried to handle it:
_most_ NPCs are not that powerful, only 1-3rd level in a class. Those higher are particularly notable, and anyone level 5 or over is either extremely talented or dealing with PC-like adventures and hazards to get those levels. This was based on an article I read awhile back that showed how past 5th level, characters were effectively superhuman.

This would make 1st-level folks those who have just finished their apprenticeship (or wizard school or whatever), 2nd and 3rd level folks those who've gained some experience at their job, 4th level folks are those with significant talent and skill... on Earth they'd be among the best in their fields... and 5th and above they're legends to some degree,

This actually probably works well for converting fictional characters that weren't especially powerful (like in Lord of the Rings), but it broke down when I needed elite troops for the BBEG to throw at the heroes in my own campaign. I couldn't explain where so many near-PC-level folks came from (Like, level 10+) -- fortunately, my players didn't ask.


Kilbourne wrote:
Kolokotroni wrote:
My best example is Frodo. How long in world time did it actually take him to go from 1st level commoner to legendary hero? Same for same, merry, and pippen. The whole LOTR Trilogy happens over like 3 years at most.

It does happen over a short period of time, and Frodo is a figure of legend by the end, however he does not have any great martial or magical powers. He is not legendary for his power, but for his fortitude of mind.

I would propose that Frodo may have reached the 3rd or 4th level by the end of his adventures, and probably in an NPC class. He had little skill in combat, no magical aptitude, and relied entirely on his racially nimble frame and small size. He was excellent at hiding, and his Will saves -- I mean, come on! -- he resisted the One Ring of Power for two years or more. Incredible.

But over level 10? I do not think so at all.

Do levels require magical or martial powers? His will save being extraordinarily high, higher then gandalfs definately implies he eventually had considerable levels, even if they werent in a traditional class. But sam taking on and defeating shelob (who groups of orcs avoided for their own saftey) on his own showed considerable martial ability. Gardener to fighting legendary giant spider in 2 years? Thats a big level jump if I ever heard one.


Kolokotroni wrote:


Do levels require magical or martial powers? His will save being extraordinarily high, higher then gandalfs definately implies he eventually had considerable levels, even if they werent in a traditional class. But sam taking on and defeating shelob (who groups of orcs avoided for their own saftey) on his own showed considerable martial ability. Gardener to fighting legendary giant spider in 2 years? Thats a big level jump if I ever heard one.

Frodo's Will save wasn't higher than Gandalf's. Gandalf knew that the ring corrupted everyone eventually, halfling, man, dwarf, elf, or wizard. The old wizard knew sooner or later he'd roll a 1 on his Will save and then Middle Earth would be doomed. And probably also knew that killing Frodo would be a lot easier than killing himself. That's a Wisdom check to know that rolling a 1 on his Will save with that ring would be catastrophic. Gandalf also suspected that the racial save modifier of halflings would help them get the ring to the mountain.

As far as Sam goes, yes, I think he gained several levels along the way, levels in classes with combat ability. He fought in Balin's Tomb and did well, as I recall. But truly, what does it take to be a legendary critter?

Grand Lodge

I think people are forgetting that there was no random number generator in LotR.

Grand Lodge

The Black Bard wrote:
Yes, that means Onyxia was origionally taken down by level 12 characters. But let me remind you, it was 40 level 12 characters, who had to be well geared, and all working together.

I have Onyxia's official d20 stats from the Warcraft Manual of Monsters. 40 level 12s don,t stand a chance against her. The encounter description even factors in the tricks she does in her lair. She's stated as a CR 25 encounter and atop of her regular dragon abilities she's got deep breath which hits for 45d10 Reflex DC 49 and she's got the casting ability of a 21sth level Warcraft Mage (Mages in warcraft are essentially the combination of wizard and sorcerer, they get the best of both worlds) There's supplemental information on how you fight her as Katrana Prestor (if she can't keep you off in Human form, she essentially teleports away)

The usual conversion I do from WOW to D20 is 3:1 with a cap of 25.

Grand Lodge

Kolokotroni wrote:


Do levels require magical or martial powers? His will save being extraordinarily high, higher then gandalfs definately implies he eventually had considerable levels, even if they werent in a traditional class. But sam taking on and defeating shelob (who groups of orcs avoided for their own saftey) on his own showed considerable martial ability. Gardener to fighting legendary giant spider in 2 years? Thats a big level jump if I ever heard one.

Lord of the Rings has it's own special paradigms that one needs to keep in mind.

The higher level you are the more susceptible you are to corruption. (Which is why Gandalf would not even TOUCH the One Ring, that and the fact he was wearing one of the Three)

Of all the races Hobbits are the most resistant to corruption. Bilbo carried the One Ring for almost half a century, Boromir was practically corrupted on sight. (His higher level might have also factored into it as well)


LazarX wrote:
Kolokotroni wrote:


Do levels require magical or martial powers? His will save being extraordinarily high, higher then gandalfs definately implies he eventually had considerable levels, even if they werent in a traditional class. But sam taking on and defeating shelob (who groups of orcs avoided for their own saftey) on his own showed considerable martial ability. Gardener to fighting legendary giant spider in 2 years? Thats a big level jump if I ever heard one.

Lord of the Rings has it's own special paradigms that one needs to keep in mind.

The higher level you are the more susceptible you are to corruption. (Which is why Gandalf would not even TOUCH the One Ring, that and the fact he was wearing one of the Three)

Of all the races Hobbits are the most resistant to corruption. Bilbo carried the One Ring for almost half a century, Boromir was practically corrupted on sight. (His higher level might have also factored into it as well)

Oh I know that tolkein's world doesnt evenly translate to dnd, that isnt the point. My point is that the hobbits when from nothing to legendary heroes in a relatively short span of time.

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