Assuming for a moment that the Duelist PrC wasn't available and you were looking to make a Swashbuckler-type character (combat-focused, emphasizing light weapons, mobility, and lots of stupid, stupid tricks and nonsense bound to make any sane DM sigh), would you think that a better build would be constituted of more rogue, or more fighter?
Assuming for a moment that the Duelist PrC wasn't available and you were looking to make a Swashbuckler-type character (combat-focused, emphasizing light weapons, mobility, and lots of stupid, stupid tricks and nonsense bound to make any sane DM sigh), would you think that a better build would be constituted of more rogue, or more fighter?
An Invoker!!!!!!!!!! hahahahahaahaha
Seriously (mostly) I have build most of mine as fighters (and one Fighter/Invoker) though I have had players create rogues so ether style works a lot of it is based on what your goal is i.e what type of swashy things do you want to do?
with the right set of feats and skill choices you pull off both as a respectable Swashbuckler
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Wesley from The Princess Bride always strikes me as the iconic "swashbuckler" style guy.
To that end Rogue (or even Ranger) gets you the skills necessary to pull it off.
Now, Fighter with decent intelligence & favored class & human can get some of those same skills, but not quite as well.
So, Rogue 2/ Fighter x really seems like a good way to pull off the style of PC you're gunning for.
Errol Flynn or musketeer?
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Surely there's an archetype in the APG for swashbuckler? (at work, so I don't have my APG with me) Are there any classes in the APG which have similar archetypes? Eg, I could imagine a swashbuckler archetype for both fighter and rougue - different builds of course, but both recognised as swashbucklers?
Bard!
Errol Flynn or musketeer?
I see far too many ways to draw a distinction there. Care to draw out what you mean?
What I think is really close to what your looking for is Duelist which can be found page 382 of the Core rule book.
Basic of Duelist prestige class:
Base Att +6
Skills Acrobatics 2 ranks, Perform 2 ranks
feats: Dodge, Mobility, Weapon Finesse.
With the above information as a basis I would say Fighter with a dab of rogue.
Assuming for a moment that the Duelist PrC wasn't available and you were looking to make a Swashbuckler-type character (combat-focused, emphasizing light weapons, mobility, and lots of stupid, stupid tricks and nonsense bound to make any sane DM sigh), would you think that a better build would be constituted of more rogue, or more fighter?
I would use the fighter variant from p45 of the Campaign Guide combined with the free-handed warrior variation from the APG, maybe with a few levels of rogue thrown in.
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Assuming for a moment that the Duelist PrC wasn't available and you were looking to make a Swashbuckler-type character (combat-focused, emphasizing light weapons, mobility, and lots of stupid, stupid tricks and nonsense bound to make any sane DM sigh), would you think that a better build would be constituted of more rogue, or more fighter?I would use the fighter variant from p45 of the Campaign Guide combined with the free-handed warrior variation from the APG, maybe with a few levels of rogue thrown in.
+1
And if you are using 3pp books then the Wall of Blades feat in Super-genius' Feats of Battle would help as well.
Free hand Fighter from APG is *neat* as an option provided you have NO intention of completing a full 20 levels in fighter. Mostly, you're in there for the AC boosting and the disarm/trip bonus on cmb/cmd (ie: the lowest level boons granted). The higher you go in fighter w/this variant, the more useless it becomes. It does silly stuff like trade in your actions for higher cost/use actions. (Ie: the normally "attack action" disarm and trip suddenly get turned into freakin' MOVE actions to pull stuff off ... it's a bad, BAD idea mechanically given the economy of actions stuff.) You'll get the most *bang* here w/10th level, but that also means dumping level 2 of wpn training (RAW anyway). Timelytip is SO situational, AND frakkin' costs a move action to pull off, so whatever. You *do* end up with a +3 to AC at 10th, though (only reason to consider it). It'll also net the +3 to Disarm/Trip maneuvers as well ... so, just something to keep in mind.
So, I'm w/Dabbler - a bit of Free-Hand Fighter. For *my* $, you'll need to take that "Collegiate Fighter" or whatever as the 1st level feat to get 4+int for skill points and +2 more class skills of some sort. High on that list - Acrobatics! Maybe Perception, too (it's just darn useful, but Stealth is a good idea, too).
I think that the 4-level rogue dip is a pretty good idea. there are the 2 combat-based rogue talents you can grab, OR actually use 'em on rogue-like talents (Bleeding Attack looks particularly nice given that consistent damage will be a problem for them).
The vital-strike line of feats will be particularly useful to this sort of a build (feint = move action, leaving *only* a standard action attack at that point, and you'll *want* to feint any chance you get in 1-1 combat, otherwise constantly try to flank targets).
From there it's all about the Duelist levels. As I'm looking at it, Str and Int should be key to this sort of a build, with Con running along right behind. It's all about *not* getting hit, so that's there the Duelist and Int stuff come into play. The higher the Int bonus, and the more Duelist levels taken, that AC just goes a bit higher. Add in the Mobility and Enhanced Mobility and they'll end up at +8 in AC with AoO's and the like ... it's damn nice!
Again, though, as a "class" the Swashbuckler ends up being a hodge-podge of whatever you can mix up to whatever your favorite flavor is.
Swashbuckling is all about play style and finesse, not about class features or skill points. You could just as easily play a paladin swashbuckler as you could a bard or fighter.
Unless you have no imagination, in which case GLF.
given as there's very little to support the 1-weapon in 1-hand "swashbuckler" of Dumas fame, that's just a foolish, and maybe elitist statement to make.
Of *course* anyone can just "role play" out the effects and hand wave the rest ... but of course, when you try and make the image match the mechanics, you've got a guy running around in really light armor (ie: low AC), with maybe 1 feat (dodge) to try and keep pace w/dudes in full plate armor and shields ... it's not even slightly mechanically *feasible* to do this.
thus, the likely reason for such a thread in the first place. As well the likely reason behind "free hand fighter" being given some screen time *finally* with serious mechanics (much as it fails it's a step in the right direction), and likely the reason behind a LOT that was driving the rogue talent, IMO. There is a LOT in RT's that just support the idea/concept of a swashbuckler. Bumping up the HD is another step towards making a rogue-swashbuckler something that can compete with other melee-heavies. Add in the Vital Strike stuff, combat feats (the APG lets 'em take a few more for combat feats), etc and it's really somthing that w/Paizo's guidance, is coming closer to granting effective mechanics behind the "swashbuckler" archetype of a fighter.
Hiding behind the "real role players don't need mechanics" is a BS argument, and you know it.
Thread Relevant: Anyway, noting the OP actually said to ignore Duelist and my previous thing said to grant some Duelist levels in there. Revise my advise to say 10 levels of Fighter (free hand APG tops), and the rest invested in Rogue fully (so 10 and 10). This guy will have NO cap-stones at all. I'd also suggest the Rogue take the Swashbuckler archetype as well. Unlike the Free Hand Fighter, it's mechanically advantageous at all points regarding the concept.
Bard, Rogue, Fighter, and Ranger all work well for this. Ranger, particularly, makes an awesome Pirate (favored terrain ocean). Bard is my personal favorite. A lot of it depends on what you are going for, but they will all work and be mechanicly feasable, even with just core.
I would be thinking of combining Swashbuckler Rogue (3-5lvls) + Mobile Fighter from the APG. The fighter would, of course, be using the Golarion fighter variant.
Swashbuckling is all about play style and finesse, not about class features or skill points. You could just as easily play a paladin swashbuckler as you could a bard or fighter.
Unless you have no imagination, in which case GLF.
Yes you can, but having the mechanics certainly helps when the bad guys start getting nasty. Trying to do dangerous stunts only to fall flat on your face impresses no-one, and BBEGs tend to ignore you if you cannot actually inflict any serious damage on them.
Swashbuckling is all about play style and finesse, not about class features or skill points. You could just as easily play a paladin swashbuckler as you could a bard or fighter.
Unless you have no imagination, in which case GLF.
Yes you can, but having the mechanics certainly helps when the bad guys start getting nasty. Trying to do dangerous stunts only to fall flat on your face impresses no-one, and BBEGs tend to ignore you if you cannot actually inflict any serious damage on them.
I've been thinking a lot about swashbucklers quite a bit lately, going back and looking through some of the cinema source material from Count of Monte Cristo to Zorro to Pirates of the Carribean, etc. It occured to me that swashbucklers actually don't put out that much damage, especially against foes of the same level. Sure, they can easily kill low level minion/mook type opponents, though the simply embarrass them just as often. But the whole genre in film seems to focus on long battles where people aren't touched until the final decisive blow, or where opponents are whittled down by many small cuts.
This seems to be perfectly emulated by the rogue, who can do all of the cool moving with different skills, can be scathing or charming if you like, and can impose lots of conditions and penalties through various rogue talents. If you convert some old 3.5 feats that let you trade sneak attack for conditions, that could help as well.
The problem becomes how do you get that high AC, which I'm not sure you can easily manage.
I've been thinking a lot about swashbucklers quite a bit lately, going back and looking through some of the cinema source material from Count of Monte Cristo to Zorro to Pirates of the Carribean, etc.
How about bard? Lead and effectively influence your pirate crew, inspire all with a well timed 'Huzzaaah!' - and use magical tricks to help you pull of those really tricky stunts.
This seems to be perfectly emulated by the rogue, who can do all of the cool moving with different skills, can be scathing or charming if you like, and can impose lots of conditions and penalties through various rogue talents
Aye but.. ..foe of the same level gets blinded (classic swashbuckling move) and then..
...SNEAK ATTACK SNEAK ATTACK SNEAK ATTACK!11!1!
:D
o-O Just to clarify, this being teh netz n' all - I also like the idea of a rogue swashbuckler and agree with your points.
Sure, you can blind people by pulling curtains over their head or cutting their forehead, causing blood to be in their eyes. I guess that would be the dirty trick maneuver.
The problem becomes how do you get that high AC, which I'm not sure you can easily manage.
Wouldn't Wind and Lightning stances plus Vital Strike or Cleave be good combat options for the swashing of buckles? Concealment seems as good or better than AC bonuses to me, but I have never gotten a character up in levels enough to find out.
Assuming for a moment that the Duelist PrC wasn't available and you were looking to make a Swashbuckler-type character (combat-focused, emphasizing light weapons, mobility, and lots of stupid, stupid tricks and nonsense bound to make any sane DM sigh), would you think that a better build would be constituted of more rogue, or more fighter?
Play a Swashbuckler from the Tome of Secrets. Full BAB, and precision damage.
Wouldn't Wind and Lightning stances plus Vital Strike or Cleave be good combat options for the swashing of buckles? Concealment seems as good or better than AC bonuses to me, but I have never gotten a character up in levels enough to find out.
The problem becomes how do you get that high AC, which I'm not sure you can easily manage.
Wind Stance only counts against missile attacks, and Lightning Stance only effects if you double move in a round (ie do not attack). However, Spring Attack with Vital Strike or Cleave is good.
I've seen the ToS swashbuckler ... it's OK, but nothing to write home about.
Wind Stance only counts against missile attacks, and Lightning Stance only effects if you double move in a round (ie do not attack). However, Spring Attack with Vital Strike or Cleave is good.
Ahh, I was wondering why they didn't get more press...
Wouldn't Wind and Lightning stances plus Vital Strike or Cleave be good combat options for the swashing of buckles? Concealment seems as good or better than AC bonuses to me, but I have never gotten a character up in levels enough to find out.
The problem becomes how do you get that high AC, which I'm not sure you can easily manage.
Wind Stance only counts against missile attacks, and Lightning Stance only effects if you double move in a round (ie do not attack). However, Spring Attack with Vital Strike or Cleave is good.
I've seen the ToS swashbuckler ... it's OK, but nothing to write home about.
A TWF Swashbuckler will outdamage a Fighter when they get to full-attack, though. Not at first, but they get formidable later on. Other builds unfortunately aren't as viable.
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that "Collegiate Fighter" or whatever as the 1st level feat to get 4+int for skill points and +2 more class skills of some sort
That sounds like an elegant solution to playing an archer with all the goodness of the Fighter class without having to multiclass into Ranger for the skills... where is it from? It doesn't sound like it's part of Pathfinder canon, though.
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that's just a foolish, and maybe elitist statement to make.
I happen to take offence at that statement...
I agree with that poster's assessment...
For me and my player's, this stance comes from STILL playing 3.x D&D/Pathfinder the same as we did back when we were playing 1e D&D...
The mechanics may have changed, but the flare is still the same...
All we need to play a pirate, swashbuckler, gladiator, etc. is the Player's Handbook (or Core Rulebook if playing PFRPG), a character sheet, and our imagination...
Obviously, YMMV...
-That One Digitalelf Fellow-
your problem will likely be that you need skillpoints for jump/climb and so on, and you need good base attack for lots of combat tricks. Feats might also be good for anyone of those.
I would go for perhaps multiclassing, or here a very silly idea: Monk with a rapier. The APG has a monk class that can wear 1 weapon to flurry.
Only problem is, you need decent stats in everything (charisma only for style, but a swashbuckler needs lots of that). He got combat maneuvers and feats, gets a decent start for movement skills, only lacks the skill points, but human and favored class can cure that.
But this is just my "outside the box" idea :)
enjoy your playing
that "Collegiate Fighter" or whatever as the 1st level feat to get 4+int for skill points and +2 more class skills of some sortThat sounds like an elegant solution to playing an archer with all the goodness of the Fighter class without having to multiclass into Ranger for the skills... where is it from? It doesn't sound like it's part of Pathfinder canon, though.
It's on Page 45 of the Pathfinder Chronicles Campaign Setting.
To be fair, in the game in which I've used it the DM felt that the gain in skills was worth more than a feat, so I lose the bonus feats at levels 8 and 16, as well as medium and heavy armour proficiency. On the other hand he game me a shedload more class skills than the text said, so I can live with this.
I've been thinking a lot about swashbucklers quite a bit lately, going back and looking through some of the cinema source material from Count of Monte Cristo to Zorro to Pirates of the Carribean, etc. It occured to me that swashbucklers actually don't put out that much damage, especially against foes of the same level. Sure, they can easily kill low level minion/mook type opponents, though the simply embarrass them just as often. But the whole genre in film seems to focus on long battles where people aren't touched until the final decisive blow, or where opponents are whittled down by many small cuts.
This seems to be perfectly emulated by the rogue, who can do all of the cool moving with different skills, can be scathing or charming if you like, and can impose lots of conditions and penalties through various rogue talents. If you convert some old 3.5 feats that let you trade sneak attack for conditions, that could help as well.
The problem becomes how do you get that high AC, which I'm not sure you can easily manage.
This is just crazy talk!
If you're using movies as a guideline, then Conan doesn't put out or take much damage either - just the 1 swings that land or what have you.
Now, extrapolate the "hp = health" of D&D's Hit Points and change it into "luck, experience, ability to roll with blows, and *some* health" and those swashbuckler fights are *clearly* a series of hits and swings from one to the other until the final thrust kills the guy - it's NOT about "not doing damage" in those movies by D20 standards. The whole time they've BEEN "hitting" each other. But, you know, reality being what it is, if they put into the movie a series of stab wounds from rapiers and the characters laugh them off ... the entire theatre cries "foul!", throws popcorn and soda at the screen and then generally continues to decry the amount of nonsense in the movie.
In other words, the suspension of disbelief is too much for the movies to deal with IF they choose to show a HP-like mechanic of D20 where every strike does *actually* land on target and people start looking like pin-cushions, but keep on moving with little to no effect.
A campaign that includes swashbuckling as a theme really shouldn't go down too far to the grim and gritty. If the atmosphere of the campaign doesn't allow for at least occasional tongue in cheek or a bit of humor, that's not a campaign I'd want to play a swashbuckler in.
QFT - Swashbuckler campaigns need both DM and players to be on the same page. If the environment does not fit the play style (or vice versa)things get unfun pretty quickly. There needs to be an abundance of implausible coincidences, chandeliers, vines, stupid servants and comely wenches for it to go well:) YMMW
A campaign that includes swashbuckling as a theme really shouldn't go down too far to the grim and gritty. If the atmosphere of the campaign doesn't allow for at least occasional tongue in cheek or a bit of humor, that's not a campaign I'd want to play a swashbuckler in.
Yes you can, but having the mechanics certainly helps when the bad guys start getting nasty. Trying to do dangerous stunts only to fall flat on your face impresses no-one, and BBEGs tend to ignore you if you cannot actually inflict any serious damage on them.
I disagree, the nature of the character does not determine or get determined by the nature of the campaign. I prefer grim and gritty, and yet I like the swashbuckler concept. Swashbuckler does not have to be Errol Flynn or Orlando Bloom, swashbuckler is essentially the fighter who fights with his wits and his reflexes and his skills, not with brute force and ignorance.
This is just crazy talk!
If you're using movies as a guideline, then Conan doesn't put out or take much damage either - just the 1 swings that land or what have you.
I would argue that movie Conan puts out big damage. How often does he hit something and not kill it? Even against opponents who have some levels, like Doom's two hulky minions or the big snake.
I can see your argument that all of the thrusting and parrying is reducing hit points, but I can also see a point that a rogue swashbuckler is keeping his AC high until some maneuver works that will give him sneak attack.
Errol Flynn or musketeer?I see far too many ways to draw a distinction there. Care to draw out what you mean?
Acro-hole swinging and flipping (sneak att) or the finest swordsman in all of Absalom! Fighter or rogue. Or ranger, hmm, swashbuckler ranger.
Urban Ranger is nice for Swashbuckler types, potentially you could Full Class with this,
or M-Class with a 2WF Fighter Variant (possibly also with the 4 skill point/level variant at cost of 1st Bonus Feat)
If you are playing your Swashbuckler PC in a suitably swashbuckly setting, MOST enemies are going to be human, or maybe humanoid, so you will get alot of use out of focusing on those enemy types. Alternatively, there´s an option somewhere to have Favored Enemy Organizations, i.e. Buhlman´s Bastards, the Cult of Paizo, etc, which apply to ALL members of such groups regardless of species or type.
If you want to be a 2WF Swashbuckler that 2WF Fighter variant could be played all the way thru (or with a minor Rogue dip), in combo with the 4 skill point variant for more social skills. (Favored Class to Skills, probably). Inciditentally, I like whoever mentioned their GM;s change to that 4 skill point variant - more Class Skills (lets say equal to Urban Ranger minus Spellcraft and such) but less Armor Proficiency (let;s say start with Light Armor and Buckler+Light Shield)... I don;t know about losing Bonus Feats :-)
Another Swashbuckler archetype which actually works really well given the Feats Paizo has released is the Aladdin`s Lamp / Arabian Nights / Prince of Persia scimitar wielding swashbuckler. There´s a Feat in the Qadira Companion allowing you to use DEX bonus for DMG when using a scimitar and having nothing in your off hand... Meaning it slots in perfect with the Free Hand Fighter variant and Duelist PrC. That lets you focus your stats on DEX and INT (reasonable CON and 13 STR to get Power Attack and Cleave if you so wish) which combined with all the Class Bonuses to AC will leave you looking good in AC department and DMG-wise looking at least as good as a STR-based Free Hand Fighter. (The Feat is so good for this archetype that I think any DM should house-rule a similar Feat for Sabers, Rapiers, Daggers, or other Swashbuckler-y iconic weapons - each Feat limited to one weapon and with identical restrictions, i.e. Free Hand)
...I´m not sure why anybody would rule out the Duelist PrC - It´s essentially MADE for this concept after all.
I guess if one had the idea of a stupid swashbuckler, the INT to AC part wouldn´t work, but if I was DMing a player who wanted to play such a character, I would allow substituting WIS instead of INT, i.e. as their dumb luck or intuition which allows them to anticipate their opponent´s moves...
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I think there are a few ways you can pull this off, really it depends on what route you want to take. Your main 3 contenders will be Rogue, Fighter, and Bard IMO. I think it really helps to define what you think a duelist should be- I picture a vexing sword fighter who dodges and parries blows with ease, all the while spitting witty dialogue and taunting the enemy into frustration.
For Rogue, I think the Rake package in the APG is much more befitting than the actual Swashbuckler. The Bravado's Blade is what you mainly want out of it, giving you a free Intimidate check to demoralize in exchange for 1d6 points of your Sneak Attack damage. To me that's just too perfect for the concept. You could get away with a single level rogue dip, but I'd say going for 4-5 levels minimum would make best use of it.
One talent that particularly fits the concept is Befuddling Strike. This helps you do the dodging and parrying thing better. Your wit and insults are so irritating that the enemy starts making mistakes. This might not be the mechanically best effect to add to your sneak attacks, and if I'm reading it correctly it won't work if you ditch all of your SA damage for the Bravado's Blade ability, but I still like it and think it's viable.
Others have pretty well covered the options for a Fighter, so I'll skip that.
If there's any room in your concept for a magic-using duelist, I think it's seriously worth considering the Arcane Duelist from the APG. Depending on the flavor of the character, there are several types of performances. Oratory, Dance, Sing, Act, Comedy...any could be appropriate, depending on your fighting style. I admit this build doesn't have much directly contributing to the duelist fighting style, but it should make for a competent melee combatant with a lot of skill points, good uses for his charisma (which I consider at least as necessary as intelligencefor a swashbuckling type) and some good support magic.
I'd say a multiclass Rake/Free Hand Fighter will work best for you. High Dex + Weapon Finesse will help you hit consistently and boost your AC. Sneak Attack gets some utility with Befuddling Strike, and since it lasts 1d4 rounds, you don't have to apply it every single turn. The extra feats from fighter help you keep up in damage and you would be more able to take luxury feats like Dodge.
I'd also look at the Improved and Greater Dirty Trick feats. You can apply some pretty nasty affects, which also help make it MUCH easier for your to get Sneak Attack in, plus they either have to suffer through it for 1d4 rounds, +1 per every 5 you beat their CMD by, or else they have to spend a standard action to correct it. This further helps you vex your opponent.
I definitely think it can be done, but you will probably have to accept the fact that your damage won't be as good as a straight Fighter or Rogue would be. Them's the breaks though.