Large Water Elemental

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https://sites.google.com/site/pathfinderogc/extras/community-creations/wint er_soldier-s-lab/swashbucker-handbook-in-progress

My first handbook, for the Tome of Secrets Swashbuckler, is finished!


Aelryinth wrote:

Please, way too complex. You don't even need UMD.

Have the fighter take a level in ranger or paladin. Bing, Cure spells on class list, can use a wand, even if he can't cast the spells. Pick a good favored enemy and his weapon style free feat, go to town.

If your DM allows Wands of Lessor Vigor, they are much better for out of combat healing at 11 hp/charge.

If your DM allows Dragon Shaman, the fast healing aura/1 when under 50% hit points is also good for keeping people in the running.

There are a TON of healing things in 3.5...it's actually quite easy to get by without a healer until high levels, when the need for Heal and Mass Heal becomes extreme. Belts of healing are cheaper then CSW potions, heal the same, and are reusable!

==Aelryinth

There are a ton of healing things in 3.5......but this is PF, and the 3.5 sources allowed are extremely limited.


Sharoth wrote:

~thinks~ Hit and run tactics. Distance weapons. Negotiation. Knowing when to stay and when to run.

Play the characters as you would a special forces team. Do not stay in a face to face encounter. Play the characters smart. Use the characters strengths and minimize their weaknesses. If played right, the need for healing should be minimized.

*headdesk*

For the third time, the party is being played about as smart as can be. It's just a very tough campaign, and getting hurt is a forgone conclusion at this point.


Kolokotroni wrote:
You may want to think about healing items that are renewable. If your wizard can craft a 3.5 healing belt (since you are planning to use ultimate magus I am presuming that on some level 3.5 material is allowed) that would help. 2 would help more. The renewable healing will save the oracle spell slots and the party money over time. It would also allow other characters to be able to do some measure if in combat healing in an emergency without ranks in UMD.

If only.....the Healing Belt is so, so banned in this campaign.


Lathiira wrote:

The wiz/sor and the rogue can also use magic devices once they get a few ranks in UMD to spread the love of cure wands and scrolls around. Beyond this, develop new tactics:

1) Ambushing your enemies. You're a group with a fair degree of stealth built already into your party. Learn to sneak up on enemies and hit them hard in the surprise rounds.

2) Distance superiority. If you can do a better job shooting the enemy than the enemy can do shooting you, that helps lessen the damage you'll be taking.

3) Terrain mastery. Take advantage of it. High ground, difficult terrain, and some acrobatic PCs can give you the edge in hit-and-run tactics.

4) When all else fails, start crafting magic items. Make healing stuff. Make cloaks of displacement to help avoid damage in the first place.

You have plenty of options. And remember that the best defense is a good offense and an ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure (especially in wands).

1) This is tough, but the group IS good at winning initiative most fo the time.

2) This is a big weakness of the party, limited distance superiority, but very, very dangerous up close.

3) We're pretty good at utilizing that sort of thing.

4) The mage has Craft Wondrous Item, so that WILL go a long for as far as magic item dollars.


Tom S 820 wrote:

more then the lack of healing, the lack of a arcanist is more worrysome. Your caster is seriously gimped for AP play. The others maybe too...but his gimp is pretty glaring.

Yep Wizard 3 /Soc 2 ouch I hope he is going in to some Presstige class that add to both caster levels(lile Ultamint Magus CM) or that guy relay suck the whole party down.

Yeah, he's going into Ultimate Magus. It's going to suck until then, and even after the fact, it's not what I would have chosen to do with an arcane caster at all.


Eric Clingenpeel wrote:

Leadership for a cleric?

But why do you say that an oracle besides Life wouldn't do? They still get cure spells they can cast, Life Oracles just have abilities for them to use them better.

My party (of six) is the same level as yours, and we only have two half-healers (bard & paladin) and they're doing ok so far with just a wand of CLW and their own spells/abilities.

It might require a rethinking of tactics if they're low on magical healing, maybe they shouldn't charge into the fray, maybe they shouldn't spend all their money on weapons and not armor. Without knowing how your party plays, its hard to understand why an oracle wouldn't be enough healing.

3 of the players in the party are very, very good, from a tactical standpoint. Doing dumb stuff is not the issue, it's the toughness of the campaign.

I say that anything but a Life Oracle won't be as effective because they're the only one that gets Channel Energy, and the previous Healer WITH Channel Energy was barely keeping up. Part of the problem might have been that they don't have much to do to contribute but low-level spells and the like, and that results in fights not being over as quick.


Our group has been running through Savage Tide under PF rules, and we've had some personnel changes recently. A player who recently left was playing a Priest (from the Tome Of Secrets), and we are without a strong healer in the party. Current party makeup is Swashbuckler 5, Fighter 5, Rogue 5, Wiz3/Sor2. One player who is definitely coming in is playing some sort of Oracle, likely. But if he plays anything but a Life Oracle (of course, we're not forcing him), the party won't have enough healing to keep up with what we're going through. Is there a better way around this then spending more money than would be normal on healing items?


Ender_rpm wrote:
LazarX wrote:


I agree, BUT it's not like he could USE all 6 wands in one round, unlike a thrown weapon specialist. I would have no problem with 6 dummy corded wands. But I WOULD impose a skill check penalty, prolly equivalent to a light shield, for having them all a-dangle during tumbles, climbing, swimming, and such. Also, a -1 penalty to attacks with that hand. And since a wand doesn't threaten, they would be awfully vulnerable to sunder attempts....

That's an important point about sunder attempts. Even if you weren't trying to use weapon cords with wands in some dirty trick attempt like the one detailed above, wands are so fragile that a weapon cord will essentially nothing to survive one or the other.

The problem is that it goes against the action economy, as set by the designers. Drawing a wand is a (move?) action for a reason, and something that changes that at no cost imbalances the game further than is acceptable.


Ravingdork wrote:

I have a rogue with no less than six combat wands that range from healing to buffs to blasters.

Can I buy and attach six weapon cords to them and have them hanging from my wrists so that I can draw them in combat as a swift action? Why or why not?

As stated above, it is a BLATANT violation of the rules as intended. You shouldn't even have to ask, but I know better than to think that at this point.


How does a Sending spell manifest to the recipient? Is is an audible voice, a "psychic" message? Would other people near the Sending hear it as well?


James Jacobs wrote:
winter_soldier wrote:
Sean, James, anybody have an opinion on this?
So let's look at flaming sphere. The spell says it can be extinguished by any means that would normally put out a fire of its size—in this case, we're talking about a five foot diameter ball of fire. That's a Medium sized ball of fire. More fire than would fit in a bathtub... but let's say that a bathub of water is probably enough to put out that much fire. An average bathtub can, let's say, hold 70 gallons of water. That means that to fill a bathtub with one casting of create water, you'd need to be caster level 35. At which point I don't really have a problem with you using a...

Thanks, that's a big help.


Skylancer4 wrote:
winter_soldier wrote:
Maezer wrote:

Since create water cannot be targeted beyond filling containers or creating a temporary downpour I think the flaming sphere should be safe.

Not according to the text of Create Water:

"This spell generates wholesome, drinkable water, just like clean rain water. Water can be created in an area as small as will actually contain the liquid, or in an area three times as large--possibly creating a downpour or........"or filling many small receptacles.

The spell block isn't the only place where you need to check the rules and you didn't put the entire pertinent text in... I placed some important missing text in italics and bold. You are trying to make your point by pulling things out of context and leaving things out, ignoring things that don't make your case.

"PFRPG pg. 209 wrote:
A creature or object brought into being or transported to your location by a conjuration spell cannot appear inside another creature or object, nor can it appear floating in an empty space. It must arrive in an open location on a surface capable of supporting it.

I see. The downpour thing suggests otherwise, if you hadn't read the above ruling.


Dire Mongoose wrote:
winter_soldier wrote:
I suspect the extinguishing contingency was put on the spell from the beginning, because without it, it's WAY too good.
But you always get a saving throw for no damage. Eh. I don't think it's that awesome.

It's extremely situational, sure, but it can be very good at higher levels at big dumb things with crappy Reflex saves.


Bomanz wrote:

Flaming Sphere is a continually renewing source of MAGICAL fire. It moves as the caster directs it. It sticks around, for no other reason than magically directed to do so. To allow a 0-level spell to just willy nilly wipe it out is rather silly, IMHO.

I said willy nilly and silly in the same sentence. heh.

Ok, so what I would have done is this...figure out how many gallons of water the create water spell made...4th level? 8 gallons, and I would subract 8 from the damage done by the sphere. This would represent the fact that the water is dousing the sphere and limiting it in some manner but not completely wiping it out. The sphere does 3d6 damage, so the water being created on top of the sphere hinders it, but doesnt completely prevent it.

Right, because there's nothing magical about water that was just created out of thin air........

I suspect the extinguishing contingency was put on the spell from the beginning, because without it, it's WAY too good. Even with it, it's easily one of the best direct damage spells in the game. Think about it: at 10th level, in a combat in a target-rich, or cramped environment, this spell will do 30d6 damage in 10 rounds. 45d6 with Extend Spell, in the same time. Plus, the size of the fire never changes. Because of that, I've got issues with, say, a Flaming Sphere cast by one 9th level caster, which is 5' in diameter, not being outright put out by 18 gallons of water created by another 9th level caster. C'mon.

Sean, James, anybody have an opinion on this?


Maezer wrote:

Since create water cannot be targeted beyond filling containers or creating a temporary downpour I think the flaming sphere should be safe.

Not according to the text of Create Water:

"This spell generates wholesome, drinkable water, just like clean rain water. Water can be created in an area as small as will actually contain the liquid, or in an area three times as large--possibly creating a downpour or........"


http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?board=9.0

Behold the Min/Max It! section of the Brilliant Gameologists boards. Pay particular attention to the Dirty Tricks handbook.


Dire Mongoose wrote:
winter_soldier wrote:


I can't believe everybody missed this. That's a 4500gp item, well over half the appropriate treasure value for a 3rd level character. The damage output from this would have ended a lot of encounters quicker than it should have, throwing things off more.

That's a good catch, except I think the appropriate treasure value for a 3rd level character is actually 3000gp.

Fully charged, that alone would put the character as having half-again the treasure he's supposed to have -- but he did say it wasn't fully charged, too.

Whoops, you're right, I had 4th level on the brain because my character just spent a lot of time there. That's even worse!

If the character FOUND the wand with 17 or fewer charges, that's not so bad. If the player made the character with a wand with fewer than full charges, which I don't see as specifically forbidden (but not specifically allowed, either....) by the rules, I would consider that dirty pool.


CincoDeMayonnaise wrote:


Wizard (evoker) has a Wand of Scorching Ray (not fully charged) and is eating up the charges in every encounter. Until he is out, he is going to be a canon.

I can't believe everybody missed this. That's a 4500gp item, well over half the appropriate treasure value for a 3rd level character. The damage output from this would have ended a lot of encounters quicker than it should have, throwing things off more.


What kind of action is it for a Heavens Oracle to create a Moonlight Bridge? The APG doesn't specify.


Zmar wrote:

Archer, no improvement? No AoO for shooting, maneuvers at range,... Add some acrobatics and...

Legolas on the loose :D

You can pick up Point Blank Master with one of your many, many feats, and you get manuevers at range at a -4 penalty. Seems like a featsink waiting to happen to me.


I found a lot of the Fighter archetypes meh, especially Archery, which offered no improvement over a "vanilla" Fighter made up of archery feats.

But the Two-Handed Fighter? Holy cow.......


This drove me nuts about the TOS Swashbuckler. The class has full BAB, Weapon Training as a class feature, but doesn't qualify in any way as having Fighter levels for the purpose of feat qualification? Really?


I'm so disappointed......nobody's mentioned Wolfhound yet? That movie's better than half the films on that list!


Dabbler wrote:
Oterisk wrote:
tumbler wrote:


The problem becomes how do you get that high AC, which I'm not sure you can easily manage.

Wouldn't Wind and Lightning stances plus Vital Strike or Cleave be good combat options for the swashing of buckles? Concealment seems as good or better than AC bonuses to me, but I have never gotten a character up in levels enough to find out.

Wind Stance only counts against missile attacks, and Lightning Stance only effects if you double move in a round (ie do not attack). However, Spring Attack with Vital Strike or Cleave is good.

I've seen the ToS swashbuckler ... it's OK, but nothing to write home about.

A TWF Swashbuckler will outdamage a Fighter when they get to full-attack, though. Not at first, but they get formidable later on. Other builds unfortunately aren't as viable.


J.S. wrote:
Assuming for a moment that the Duelist PrC wasn't available and you were looking to make a Swashbuckler-type character (combat-focused, emphasizing light weapons, mobility, and lots of stupid, stupid tricks and nonsense bound to make any sane DM sigh), would you think that a better build would be constituted of more rogue, or more fighter?

Play a Swashbuckler from the Tome of Secrets. Full BAB, and precision damage.


Mageye wrote:
I got a second opinion from the pastor of the church I used to go to and he said that for someone that doesn't have a knowledge of the game that he would say he would treat it as any other thing that takes our time away from god and say that we must have a balance of how we use up our 24 hours each day and that if the game becomes the center of who we are then maybe it is a bad thing for us. "To much of a good thing can become a bad thing" So I will continue to play the game but I will not let the game play me to the point that it controls my life. Also I made a phone call to my therapist and discussed his statement with him and he said the reason he mad such statements he had heard bad things about the game I asked him have you ever seen the game played he said no I asked him how he can judge something when he has no knowledge of the thing he is against and he said I'm right his statement was wrong and that he felt that he let his religious up bringing as a catholic get in the way of treating me. I will be seeing him on the 14th again and possibly will be switching to another therapist.

That pastor's advice sounds quite a bit more evenhanded.

RPG-trashing aside, I would drop this therapist immediately, because what sort of counselor is giving advice on things HE DOESN'T KNOW ANYTHING ABOUT, BASED ON HEARSAY? Scary stuff..........


Ravingdork wrote:
The Admiral Jose Monkamuck wrote:
In many ways it's a SoD spell. After all most enemies that get affected by it are out of the fight and can't do anything. Like most SoD spells if you bump the DC up enough it get very, very nice.

Feeblemind? It's only effectively a "save or die" against certain enemies. Feeblemind a fighter and, unless he has the Combat Expertise line of feats, you have done nothing to reduce his combat effectiveness. Even with 1 Intelligence he will keep all his feats (except Int-based ones) and fighting abilities and can still recognize you as his enemy.

You will likely have similar results with a dragon or similar creature or character.

Feeblemind should be used judiciously by GMs, especially when a party has no internal access to ways to cure. It's not so bad for fighters and such, but it can be pretty obnoxious to rogues, and it sucks every last bit out of fun of the game for INT-based spellcasters. I'd say that it's harsh, but fair, for a party that has an 11th level or higher Cleric. Other than that, it's cheesy and extremely frustrating. I was a little disappointed to see that it hadn't been changed at app for PF.


Dork Lord wrote:
What would folks say their ideal ratio is? How much of the game should be combat and how much should be RP or other non-combat play? Myself, I like about 60-70% combat and 40-30% non-combat. I do like to have the chance to use my combat feats fairly frequently, after all.

60/40 is a good number. I love combat, but I don't want it to significantly dominate the sessions, especially when I'vve put a LOT of work into background and characterization.


Xum wrote:
There is a feat called piranha Attack that is power attack for light weapons, requires weapon finesse. So, you can kiss that 13 str pre-req goodbye, and hello to Str as a dump stat.

Where is that feat?

EDIT: NM, found it.


1 person marked this as FAQ candidate.

The Gang Up feat lets you flank when two other allies are adjacent to an opponent. Aside from party members, what counts as an ally? Summoned monsters? An Eidolon? NPCs fighting with you on your side?


sieylianna wrote:
My pick for most broken feat is Dastardly Finish. You can coup de grace people who are stunned or cowering. It's way too easy to stun people to make it a death sentence.

IF you can get them stunned or cowering, which isn't the easiest thing in the world at the level at which one can take Dastardly Finish.


Zurai wrote:
Zark wrote:
So a feat letting spellcasters cast spells without provoking attacks of opportunity is OK?

You're comparing apples to martians. Spells are more powerful than arrows by an order of magnitude, and it's not like every single character can pick up Point Blank Master, either. ONLY Fighters and Archer Rangers can take it, and a Fighter would just take the Archer or Crossbowman archetype and get the ability for free. So, really, only one subtype of one class will even use the feat.

Your histrionics over this are amusing.

+1

You can do a lot more damage, and a lot more types of damage with spells. With arrows, you can damage, and that's about it. Comparing the two is a very flawed argument. Also, keep in mind that one of the things that are attractive about archery is that you don't HAVE to close into melee.


When a character has an item that enhances an attribute that they've been wearing for more than 24 hours (say, a belt of Giant Strength +2), and they're attacked by something that drains said enhanced attribute (say, a shadow), is it possible for them to die of ability damage, or will the item prevent that attribute from slipping below whatever it's enhancement bonus is?


Misery wrote:

Ok asking two things again.

Anyone who has had a better chance to look over the feat or class section, is there any feat to add dex to damage instead of strength yet like the Dervish Dance feat with the scimitar?

Also, in the magic weapon properties, is there any vampiric like weapon property? Some sort of life stealing/life tap, or will I have to stick to non pathfinder magic item compendium?

Definitely not, unfortunately.


Moro wrote:
Darkwolf wrote:
Carpy DM wrote:

Yeah, yeah, I understand all of the man's "credentials" and all, but I forsee terrible things. I don't know if the man is capable of checking his ego at the door and proceeding to make an Avengers movie.

I highly expect his ego to run wild and for him to destroy what could have been a good movie, as he turns it from an Avengers flick into "yet another horribly vain tribute to Joss Whedon's brilliance, brought to you by Joss Whedon" by proceeding to "Whedonize" the Avengers universe.

The thing that gives me hope for this is his Astonishing X-Men run. His Wolverine felt more in-character than he had in years.


Larry Lichman wrote:
nathan blackmer wrote:


Yeah that was all great until Civil War. Blah blah blazah we're doing the right thing here blah blah OH GAWD I've MADE A HIDEOUS MISTAKE Blah blah...

The first half of civil war Cap was amazing, but the second half he just felt like a sellout and *personally* I'd say that someone as intelligent as cap would have, y'know, stuck bythe moral line he'd been standing on.

My take on this isn't that Cap decided he was on the wrong side of the Civil War, only that the method he was using to combat it was wrong. It took the full scale battle on the streets where innocents were being threatened with collateral damage to make Cap realize he needed to change his method of fighting the SHRA.

When he indicates he made a mistake, he's only talking about the battle in the streets - not his stance against the SHRA. He surrenders to save innocents from harm. That's it.

There's no doubt in my mind that Cap would have continued the fight against the SHRA using his influence in government and contacts in the legal system to overturn the SHRA - using his own trial as his soapbox to communicate to the American people. Unfortunately, he never got the chance as he was assassinated before any of this played out.

That's the way I saw the Civil War conclusion. Cap remained true to his principles, just had a change of heart in his methods after seeing the destruction the conflict was causing. YMMV

Civil War had so much potential, and it was so flawed in execution. Here's a dangling plot thread: Wouldn't Thor wanted to have had some serious words with Reed Richards over the cloned Thor? Or was that all Skrull-Pym and Stark?


lastknightleft wrote:
winter_soldier wrote:

My point isn't whether or not Pym and Banner deserved their beatings: they absolutely did. My problem is that Cap is enjoying it way too much both times, to the point of even taunting the physically punt un-Hulked Banner before practially putting him in the ICU. It's WORSE than what the Punisher does, because he doesn't enjoy it. It's sadism, and that is mental illness.

I didn't get one hint of enjoyment from reading the story where he beat Hank Pym, not one iota of enjoyment, just a "You beat someone weaker than you and now I'm going to show you what it's like." I don't know where you read his sadism in that one.

I don't remember him beating up bruce, it's been a while, but I think you're reading something into it that isn't there because I also thought the "A doesn't stand for france" line as a bit overly jingoistic, but I never once got the impressions you took from your reading of the ultimates line. Cap in that line is one of my favorite characters (sometimes not though, sometimes I think he went too far, and I'm ignoring the existence of ultimates 3) and I actually dislike the idea of overly jingoistic characters, even if they are named Captain America, and I've read the enitirety of the ultimates run, so even though I don't remember this one thing I know I didn't get your sadistic bent from it. If any characters were sadistic I think it would be Fury and Pym.

No, I clearly remember a fairly cowering Bruce begging Cap not to hit him, then Cap saying something like, "Good God, man, you wouldn't expect me to hit a man with glasses, would you?", then clocking him HARD in the head.


Freehold DM wrote:
winter_soldier wrote:
Freehold DM wrote:
winter_soldier wrote:
Freehold DM wrote:
winter_soldier wrote:
A Quote from Dixon
And like I said above, I've seen him stray into that territory from time to time. That aside, it doesn't make his discourse on what superhero comics should and shouldn't be wrong.
Agreed. I shouldn't think he's wrong for his opinion. Actually I DON'T think he's wrong, just that his attitude overall turns me off on an intellectual level.

True.....if you want to be heard on something, it helps to be as level-headed as you can manage.

Captain America? Not something I can be level-headed about. If the Cap movie is less than stellar, my nerd rage is going to look something like the third act of Akira.


Freehold DM wrote:
winter_soldier wrote:
Freehold DM wrote:
winter_soldier wrote:
Freehold DM wrote:
Callous Jack wrote:
nathan blackmer wrote:

I see where you're coming from, but the idea of a captain america who waltzes through life never showing the stain of the things he's had to do in the name of his country is a little too 50's "we're all alright!" for me. He killed people in the war, he had to, and the idea that he'd balk at doing that again always seemed a little too disingenuous to me.

I must disagree here. Just because he's strong minded and a bit of a jerk doesn't mean he would turn a blind eye to offenses. Quite the opposite, I'd say. But I don't think we're going to see that in this comic, Millar or no.
When you can curl 500lbs, kicking a helpless 98lb weakling in the face goes far beyond being "a bit of a jerk".

Wasn't this done to make him turn into the Hulk? Or was this done to boost Banner for his lunch money?

EDIT- Banner is THE HULK. He's far from helpless.

No, that was some other time. This was just after the Hulk trashed NYC. Granted, Steve had a good reason to be pissed, but kicking him in the face and knocking teeth out crossed the line from righteous anger to sadism.

Matthew: Same thing with the fight with Pym. Steve probably had an even better reason to be pissed in this situation, but again, I felt like he derived too much pleasure from the beatdown for it to be righteous.

Come on. What do you want him to do, give them the frowning of a lifetime? I'm not saying that he should go all Punisher on people, but he slugged Banner -ONCE- for potential mass murder, and beat the crap out of a wife-beater. I don't think he should get a medal for it, but I think it just shows that he's human and can lose his temper, just like anyone else.

Welllll.....now that I think about it, Banner did inject himself and cause that whole ramapage, didn't he?

My point isn't whether or not Pym and Banner deserved their beatings: they absolutely did. My problem is that Cap is enjoying it way too much both times, to the point of even taunting the physically punt un-Hulked Banner before practially putting him in the ICU. It's WORSE than what the Punisher does, because he doesn't enjoy it. It's sadism, and that is mental illness.


Freehold DM wrote:
winter_soldier wrote:
Freehold DM wrote:
winter_soldier wrote:
A Quote from Dixon
I would say he's falling a bit into his own stereotype of sub literates here regarding some of his later comments.
I post pretty regularly on Dixon's board. He can definitely put out a "know it all/you darned kids know nothing" vibe from time to time, but the guy IS really smart, and he understands the medium much better than he's routinely given credit for.
I'd never say Dixon was unintelligent- the man has done more for comics than most. However, once you start going down the know it all road, it's just a hop, skip and a jump to "everyone is stupid except for me", which is a turnoff for me.

And like I said above, I've seen him stray into that territory from time to time. That aside, it doesn't make his discourse on what superhero comics should and shouldn't be wrong.


Freehold DM wrote:
winter_soldier wrote:
Freehold DM wrote:
Callous Jack wrote:
nathan blackmer wrote:

I see where you're coming from, but the idea of a captain america who waltzes through life never showing the stain of the things he's had to do in the name of his country is a little too 50's "we're all alright!" for me. He killed people in the war, he had to, and the idea that he'd balk at doing that again always seemed a little too disingenuous to me.

I must disagree here. Just because he's strong minded and a bit of a jerk doesn't mean he would turn a blind eye to offenses. Quite the opposite, I'd say. But I don't think we're going to see that in this comic, Millar or no.
When you can curl 500lbs, kicking a helpless 98lb weakling in the face goes far beyond being "a bit of a jerk".

Wasn't this done to make him turn into the Hulk? Or was this done to boost Banner for his lunch money?

EDIT- Banner is THE HULK. He's far from helpless.

No, that was some other time. This was just after the Hulk trashed NYC. Granted, Steve had a good reason to be pissed, but kicking him in the face and knocking teeth out crossed the line from righteous anger to sadism.

Matthew: Same thing with the fight with Pym. Steve probably had an even better reason to be pissed in this situation, but again, I felt like he derived too much pleasure from the beatdown for it to be righteous.


nathan blackmer wrote:

@ Winter Soldier

You know, that was a direct insult you posted about Comics for Dummies. That whole post was snobby, and pretty arrogant.

I'm not wrong for liking what I like, no more then you are, and niether of our tastes validate or invalidate anything.

Hey, I didn't name that "law"......

Yeah, there's no accounting for taste, sure. And there has been some good stuff from the Ultimate line, mostly Team-Up, early X-Men, and Spider-Man. But are you seriously going to defend something like Ultimatum? Because that seems to be the norm for most Ultimate stuff.


Matthew Morris wrote:
winter_soldier wrote:

You seem to have COMPLETELY missed my point, so I'll reiterate it, even more concisely: Based on Johnston's track record as a director, Captain America is NOT going to be internationalized. The statement he made is misdirection for factions in the press who would be looking to paint this project as nothing more than rah-rah propaganda, when there's so much more to Steve Rogers, and his story, than JUST that. If you beleive that Johnston is going to water down Cap, then I have a lovely bridge in Brooklyn you might be interested in buying. To sum up: based on Johnston's previous films (including work on some of the CLASSIC action set pieces of the last 30-odd years), the promotional art released for the film, and Marvel Studios' track record with films thus far, there's no reason to worry about this at this point in time.

Ironic? Rightttttt, because I'm a big fan of the Winter Soldier hearings, and not former Cap sidekick/Winter Soldier/Cap Bucky Barnes......

And you seem to have missed my point, based on other projects HOLLYWOOD has put out, I am concerned, I don't know this director's body of work, I'm hoping it is as enjoyable as Iron Man is. I am however concerned on it being 'watered down' for an international audience.

And you also seem to have missed my last link, which was to Jim's bio. I'd gotten out of comics when Truth came out and am just getting back in. I'm enjoying Secret Avengers and Super Soldier so far, but I don't know enough about Jim's new history to really care about him being Cap. Bucky should have stayed dead, and I don't know why Brubaker used such a contraversial name for his 'assassin days'. Him and Uncle Ben were really the only constant in the Marvel universe.

Brubaker SHOULDN'T have been able to pull off bringing Bucky back, but he did. And fair's fair: Bucky NEVER died on-panel.....only in Steve's memories, in flashback. Brubaker's run has had one or two slow spots, but has been really, really good.

As for Johnston:

http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0002653/


Matthew Morris wrote:
Freehold DM wrote:
A little unfair for those of us who want a bit of claret, as the 90s have been over for several years. The characters that came out of that period are still beloved and are still followed; many could be credited with keeping the genre alive in some respects while the big two diddled with alternate realties and clones.
Have you followed the 'Shatterstar controversy'? It's been rather amusing watching a Liefield character get three dimensional under someone else's pen, and Liefield's reaction. "He's not gay, he's a soldier, like a Spartan!" was exceptionally humourus.

That WAS pretty hilarious.


Freehold DM wrote:
Callous Jack wrote:
nathan blackmer wrote:

I see where you're coming from, but the idea of a captain america who waltzes through life never showing the stain of the things he's had to do in the name of his country is a little too 50's "we're all alright!" for me. He killed people in the war, he had to, and the idea that he'd balk at doing that again always seemed a little too disingenuous to me.

I see where you're coming from and it's a valid point.

But I'm in the same boat as winter_soldier, there are a few superheroes like Superman, SpiderMan, Cap, the FF, etc. who I keep on a pedestal in my head. I grew up reading them and they were not just ordinary people with petty everyday problems (well, maybe Spidey was) but heroes who represent all that is good and all that we could aspire to be. Mind you, I don't mind Cap shooting someone in the middle of a battle, it's the personality quirks from the Ultimates that bother me more. I wouldn't put it past Millar to have Ultimate Cap mistreat prisoners or accept collateral damage to civilians in order to win. He's a great warrior but he's not a superhero in my book.

I must disagree here. Just because he's strong minded and a bit of a jerk doesn't mean he would turn a blind eye to offenses. Quite the opposite, I'd say. But I don't think we're going to see that in this comic, Millar or no.

When you can curl 500lbs, kicking a helpless 98lb weakling in the face goes far beyond being "a bit of a jerk".


Freehold DM wrote:
winter_soldier wrote:
A Quote from Dixon
I would say he's falling a bit into his own stereotype of sub literates here regarding some of his later comments.

I post pretty regularly on Dixon's board. He can definitely put out a "know it all/you darned kids know nothing" vibe from time to time, but the guy IS really smart, and he understands the medium much better than he's routinely given credit for.


Moro wrote:
yellowdingo wrote:

"Aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaah!"

Must resist buying ticket...aw! Who am I kidding.

Guess I should begin lowering my expectations for this movie right now.

Mixed feelings about this. Whedon can direct hand to hand and space opera action, but he's untested as to the widescreen action this requires. Cautiously optimistic.


nathan blackmer wrote:
Callous Jack wrote:
nathan blackmer wrote:
Edit-- I think a lot of that has to do with being in the military and realizing what's done on a battle field. I like Cap being a hero too, but maybe always felt like he was a little TOO good.

I disagree. I don't think Waid or Busiek wrote him like that, and Brubaker CERTAINLY doesn't write Steve as a milqutoast.

What CJ said.....I want to LIKE my heroes. Ultimate Cap is too sadistic. He enjoys beating down helpless opponents (Bruce Banner), and people under his weight class (Hank Pym) way too much. I'm trying to avoid getting on the topic of Ultimate Marvel, because (save Spider-Man), it sucks all the fun out of those characters. Grim and boring Hawkeye. Hank Pym spraying Janet Pym with bug spray. A depraved Hulk. The Blob EATING the Wasp. It's all Comics For Dummies.

Chuck Dixon on this:

"Sub-literates are not illiterate. In fact, most sub-literates read more than the average person. Because of this they consider themselves well-read and that their opinion is more valid than yours. But they read within a very narrow range of literature and shape their worldview around it. They take what they read very personally and are dismissive and intolerant of anything outside of the tiny area of their interests. These are the people who become upset when a favorite book or group or movie gains mass appeal. Why? Because now it is no longer exclusively "theirs."

You will find them working behind the counters of college bookstores. Or waiting in line at the multiplex explaining to someone why the Aeon Flux cartoons were better than the movie. Or writing fan fiction on their laptop at Starbucks praying that someone asks them what they're writing. Unfortunately, they also provide most of the opinion makers in comics that the companies foolishly listen to.

On to comic book profanity.

Superman and Spider-man should never talk like "real" people. They aren't real people. They are fictional contrivances. In addition to that, most of the folks writing comics don't ever talk to "real" people and have no idea what they talk like. Uh...you know? "Real" dialogue in comics these days means that the writer has written as close to the patois of a Quentin Tarentino movie as his talents will allow. It means that he has watched enough episodes of Buffy to get the characters speech patterns down.

Also, Superman and Spider-man should never use foul language no matter how many warning stickers you place on their publications. They should never be shown urinating. Or having sexual relations. They should never be diagnosed with cancer or be treated for AIDs. They should never learn that they were molested as a child. They should never have many of the things happen to them that happen to real people every day.
I grew up reading comics and was attracted to them precisely because I will never fight Dr Octopus or fly to another planet to rescue a civilization from destruction. And while being thrilled and amazed by the adventures of the heroes I loved and admired, I also learned lessons about courage, loyalty and kindness. My heroes did not have feet of clay. They were icons. Towers of virtue. They had human flaws but were not flawed humans. They had runs of bad luck and misfortune but came out the other side of them a stronger, more determined hero.

Superheroes are escapist fiction for children. You may like them and read their adventures as an adult but recall that their primary audience is children. Those millions of kids playing with action figures (actually removing them from their blister cards and playing with them on the living room carpet and in the backyard dirt) and watching cartoons and snuggling under Ninja Turtles comforters.

And I am NOT putting superheroes down in any sense of the word. I still read comics. I WRITE the darned things and get a kick out of scripting masked guys and gals doing crazy, crazy stuff.

As much as anyone might want to hold on to their childhood fantasies by having their favorite superheroes grow up along with them, it is wrong to want it to be so. If Spider-man uses foul language then it becomes a part of him and can never be taken away or ret-conned out of existance. And there cannot be two Spider-mans; one for the sublitertates and one the rest of the world enjoys. There is not an adult version of Donald Duck just to keep his longtime fans happy. (Not that they wouldn't be outraged by the very idead.) These characters have very long lives. Longer than any of us will be alive. They must be maintained and carefully watched over.

It is possible to continue to have compelling adventures of your favorite characters that satisfy both the mass-appeal younger audience and the older devotee of the medium. But it requires skilled writing and long term planning and storylines far more sophisticated than the "stunt" storylines we see so often these days.

Which is the more "mature" recent movie dealing in universal themes? Hostel? Or the latest Harry Potter?"


Larry Lichman wrote:

What Cap means to me:

Cap is the ultimate good guy. He's similar to Superman in that respect, but he does not have the huge array of superpowers that Superman does, which makes him more of an Everyman character. He always does the right thing, and stands up for what he believes - regardless of the odds stacked against him.

He represents the concept of the United States as a symbol of truth, justice, and equality for all, and is willing to question governmental policies and decisions when they go against the concepts of fairness and justice inherent to the country envisioned by our forefathers.
Cap is not just a patriot - he is the conscience of the United States.

Cap is the one person everyone (heroes AND the common man) turns to in their hour of need/moment of indecision because they KNOW they can count on Cap to come through for them. Cap always perseveres.

Unquestioned loyalty. Unwavering integrity. Unquestioned heroics. No one does it better than Cap.

(Yes, I'm a HUGE Captain America fanboy. Been that way since I was a kid. Spider-man and Cap have been my favorites since I first learned to read).

Dead on. Cap really is Superman's equivalent in the Marvel Universe.

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