+1
This is my kind of thinking.
Need to take out an army? Know where to locate the key stone of the local dam.
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Except, of course, we're talking about a fantasy world where a medium level caster can handle all such trouble with ease.+1
This is my kind of thinking.
Need to take out an army? Know where to locate the key stone of the local dam.
You are of course running with the assumption that the game world being used here is fantastic enough to have medium level casters. It could concieveably be a low fantasy game where this kind of skill use is essential. (David Gemmel wrote fantasy books that fell into this catagory,and they are some of the best fantasy novels available)
To the OP, great way to think outside the square and allow for alternate options in skill selections. Your title was a little inflamatory though hehe.
Spoons are fearsome weapons in the hands of trained soldiers.
My alternate joke was:
Especially if the gunner is guarding cake. Fat kids love cake.
Spoons in the hands of trained soldiers sure.
But then you put one little tea cup in an awesome fighter's hand and you could loose your heart.
Engineering is prolly the most important skill for a non-barbarian army (i.e. roman and modern armies)
As by the book: buildings, aqueducts, bridges, fortifications
I would add roads, sapping, tunnels, etc.. and it migth be related to logistic issues too.
I am in full agreement with the others - this is great stuff. Have you read the college-trained fighter variant from the original Campaign Guide? I think it has most of these skills and 4+Int skill points per level to make the most of them with.
Have you read the college-trained fighter variant from the original Campaign Guide? I think it has most of these skills and 4+Int skill points per level to make the most of them with.
*Insert appropriate reference to Roy Greenhilt and his Master of Battle Administration degree here...*
logistic issues
That's where Profession (soldier) comes into it. "Well, if it were me, I'd run a supply route through here... we still got that Earth Elemental Gem?"
And that's why several ideas which would be great in a Real World don't work in a Fantasy World.
I'm thinking that your medium level caster would probably be busy keeping their medium level caster's smack off of his armies back as opposed to trying to blow stuff up. After all, what good are holes in the wall if there is only the mage left to charge through them?
A wise man once told me: 'In a fight that pits one man and a machine gun against 1000 men with spoons, bet on the spoons.'
HH
Only if the spoons have the ball to suck up the number of men they are going to lose. The machine gunner had better hope they break before rather than after he runs out of ammo.
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Only if the spoons have the ball to suck up the number of men they are going to lose. The machine gunner had better hope they break before rather than after he runs out of ammo.A wise man once told me: 'In a fight that pits one man and a machine gun against 1000 men with spoons, bet on the spoons.'
HH
I think he meant more the spoons literally. As in, the gun will have overheated and exploded, and all of the men (including the gunner) will be dead. Only the spoons will be left. Poor things.
@wrath, Katherine Kerr's novels also tend to be this type of low fantasy.
@wrath, Katherine Kerr's novels also tend to be this type of low fantasy.
Also Glen Cook. (Except the fantasy detective books. Those are just silly.)
Knowledge: Engineering
One word: Catapults...
Engineering is far more than just catapults.
For one let us not forget balista's, mangonel's, trebuchet's, and the dozens of other myriad machines of war through the ancient times up to and including any device that could be construed as an artillery piece. Engineering would cover the building, maintenance and firing of those as well.
Also, there is bridge making/river fording. Field fortification building, such as quick walls, earthen ramparts and embankments, trench digging, emplacement of sharpened logs/battlefield obstacles to limit enemy troop movement and create funnels on the battlefield to steer or slow the enemy. Pitfall and trap placement (shallow hidden pits to cause horses to break legs when charging over what was supposed to be even ground or flame trenchs by soaking specific troughs or even area's with large amounts of oil as examples).
And there is also the classical use as for designing tunnels for mining or siege work, design and creation of myriad mechanical/clockwork devices, and plain old building/castle/fort designs, construction and how to get past/destroy or defend against all the above.
Lastly, in a world were some sort of explosives exist, either magical or mundane, it also covers how to best use such to damage static emplacements and clear obstacles such as fences or barbed wire, or the same defensive fortifications I listed above.
Even in fuedal/medieval/ancient times, these skills were all very advanced.
Excellent thread.
This isn't something I've seen in actual play, but in the Monster Collection series the fighter/rogue was able to use his Knowledge: Engineering to create a basic map of the inside of the Big Bad's fortress by studying it from the outside, including guesses as to where the treasure they were trying to recover was kept.
On the magic trumps all topic...
It is pretty common in most fantasy lore that having magic users on both sides of the battlefield tends to cancel out. I can add 3 more examples to the list.
The reasons for this mostly boil down to
A. Mages are too valuable of a resource to risk exposing to enemy fire. This limits their direct effectiveness on the battlefield.
B. Mages counter mages. While the attackers are scrying the castle, the defending mages should be casting protections against scrying, etc.
Wheel of Time - In the large scale battles, there were people on both side using magic to blast their enemies, but they spent a lot of time countering each other. This tended to minimize the raw effect of magic. Overall, it was good strategy that won battles when their was magic on both sides. Now, battles with magic only on one side had a tended to be a massacre.
Sword of Truth - Mages largely countered each other. Most of the magic in battles revolved around clever ways of suprising the others sides mages.
Warhammer Fantasy Table top - If the number of magic users is closely balanced, the magic phase tends to be a wash without a whole lot of damage being done on either side. This is why a lot of armies take at least one mages to cancel out some of their opponents magic.
Skills every great material warrior needs:
Acrobatics (there might come a time where you need to transverse a chasm or crack in the ground and there's no way to get across other than to JUMP FOR ITTTT)
Appraise (any warrior worth the gold pieces he carries knows which sword is masterwork and what armor is mithril)
Climb (the only thing more satisfying than conquering a mountain is saving your friend from falling off the side of one).
Diplomacy (just as not every Mage's Guild is going to craft your +5 Vopal Sword at a discount it is also true not every Innkeeper is willing to give you a discount for a night's stay in your injured)
Heal (Not every party has a divine healer and as the old saying goes, "when you reach -10 the only one left for you to argue with is the reaper...and he's got quota's to meet)
Intimidate (monsters are often just as hard to squeeze info from as sociopaths of any "civilized" race)
Knowledge: Geography (know your enemy and KNOW YOUR BATTLEFIELD)
Knowledge: History (if it's not worth researching the tactics of past enemies it's DEFINITELY WORTH the knowledge of the past itself [as if your not part of a army your probably going to be an adventurer and almost 99.99% the dungeons (as well as a good deal in them) you'll be exploring will have been constructed, made, or spellcasted IN THE PAST)
Knowledge: Nobility (while it's good to have friends in high places, without this skill you might find it hard to MAKE FRIENDS in high places)
Knowledge: Engineering (Catapults AND MAKE-SHIFT BARRIERS/BARRICADES not to mention you might want to build your own stronghold one day and why not aid the skill check of an engineer whose working to construct a castle for ya)
Ride: Sean Connery was wrong in Highlander 2! The horse and cart is still in...along with dragons, dire wolves, tigers, beasts...etc...
Swim: It's nice to take a bath in a pond or stream, until an Aboleth or something worse pulls you under. If you don't know how to swim then, better pray your friends know how...
Survival: Despite what Taldorians might think about Taldor, civilization only extends so far. When your in the wilderness without rations or someone without create food and water prepared to cast, you hunt, you forage, you survive...or you don't survive at all.
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Spoons are fearsome weapons in the hands of trained soldiers.
My alternate joke was:
Especially if the gunner is guarding cake. Fat kids love cake.Spoons in the hands of trained soldiers sure.
But then you put one little tea cup in an awesome fighter's hand and you could loose your heart.
Best EVAR cup scene.
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Knowledge: Engineering
One word: Catapults...
Engineering is far more than just catapults.
For one let us not forget balista's, mangonel's, trebuchet's, and the dozens of other myriad machines of war through the ancient times up to and including any device that could be construed as an artillery piece. Engineering would cover the building, maintenance and firing of those as well.
Also, there is bridge making/river fording. Field fortification building, such as quick walls, earthen ramparts and embankments, trench digging, emplacement of sharpened logs/battlefield obstacles to limit enemy troop movement and create funnels on the battlefield to steer or slow the enemy. Pitfall and trap placement (shallow hidden pits to cause horses to break legs when charging over what was supposed to be even ground or flame trenchs by soaking specific troughs or even area's with large amounts of oil as examples).
And there is also the classical use as for designing tunnels for mining or siege work, design and creation of myriad mechanical/clockwork devices, and plain old building/castle/fort designs, construction and how to get past/destroy or defend against all the above.
Lastly, in a world were some sort of explosives exist, either magical or mundane, it also covers how to best use such to damage static emplacements and clear obstacles such as fences or barbed wire, or the same defensive fortifications I listed above.
Even in fuedal/medieval/ancient times, these skills were all very advanced.
I'm reminded of a story of Caesar. He once, in full view of enemy scouts, had a bridge built over a river, marched his entire legion across the bridge then had them all return to the other side and had the bridge destroyed. Just to point out the fact that he could go anywhere he wanted to and there was nothing they could really do to stop him.
I believe that's as good enough reason to have Knowledge: Engineering as any.
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Knowledge skills are the corner stone of a real soldier. Patton read Rommels book and helped understand the enemy. Before gunpowder and after the introduction of the lethal trebucht to eastern europe and its migration over. The schools/college's of war were just for enigneers. Knewest advancements and appilcations. The widening of walls, heights, rounded towers, inner and outer walls, defenses (murder holes, archer slits, etc.), etc. many of the old world adversaries went to the same school as thier rivalies.
knowledge history and enigneering can give all kinds of info as can nobility. They can tell who you are fighting just from formations and camping habits b efore you even look at the crest on the flag.
Not to mention, from Knowledge History - you can know what worked and didn't work when another general was in your position.
Napoleon Bonaparte once said that he learned nothing new about warfare since reading the history of it as a beginning student. His point was, all the strategies and tactics had all been done before, you just had to work out how to apply them correctly.
West Point was founded as an engineering college. Even as late as the Civil War, Grant's campaign down the Mississippi involved building bridges, buidling barges, cutting canals, setting up supply depots, undermining fortifications, building fortifications, and conducting sieges.
Any earlier, and K(engineering) becomes MORE important.
Shelby Foote's Civil War, if anyone is still looking for a good book.
I have used KN:Engineering on my Dwarf Paladin when the Rogue was absent from game to circumvent traps, rather than disable them. That is of course, assuming you spot them or trigger them without dying.