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Okay checked everywhere for a bugging little question, can not find a proper answer, my question is as follows, hyperthically, is this Bob has an Arcane Bloodline socerery and learns identify at Lvl 1, at level three he gets identify as his bonus spell, now i know you can retrain spells at lvl 4 and such, but does Bob know identify twice till he reaches lvl 4 and can swap the lvl1 gained identify, for something new but still have gthe spell on his spell list from the bloodline bonus. Okay i think thats clear, i am aware that this could be circumvented by house rule, but this connects to a PFS sorcerer i am trying to put together, so if someone knows a pfs answer or if Josh or another knowledgeable one can point me to a pfs complaint answer or such
thanks and apolgies for any unclearedness, not much sleep and many hours already awake are ruling my brain at the moment
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No Bob doesn't know Identify twice. In fact you can't change out a spell you get for free on account of your blood line at all. Bob the Sorcerer gains no free spell at 3rd level.
You need to be useful in the party and these spells aren't effective spells at first level, especially when they're your only spells. Color Spray, Charm Person, Grease, Enlarge Person, Burning Hands, Obscuring Mist (etc.) and the like are much more useful choices.
Another question on Sorcerer Bloodline spells, I know has come up before, but since we're flagging things for a FAQ I figured I'd bring it up again:A sorcerer takes a PrC that advances his arcane casting, which includes increasing his known spells, does he learn bloodline spells this way?
On one hand it's listed as a class feature.
But on the other hand, it is expressly a spell known.
I would think that the specifics (spell known) would trump the general (class feature) but I KNOW there would be variation on this, so I figured it would be worth a FAQ answer.
-James
No. A sorceror's bloodline and extra spells known from his bloodline are tied to his sorceror level, not his overall level.
Think of it this way: If a fighter takes a PrC that advances his BAB, does he still gain bonus feats?
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No Bob doesn't know Identify twice. In fact you can't change out a spell you get for free on account of your blood line at all. Bob the Sorcerer gains no free spell at 3rd level.
** spoiler omitted **
thanks to morgen for the non-specific answer, can anyone point to errata, a section of a rulebook or a designer post to clarify can a spell which could be duplicated by a bloodline spell/bonus spell, be retrained or do you lose the bonus spell completely if you already know the spell
On a side note directed to morgen,apolgies if the above sounds snarky, but i was looking for an eratted rulebook answer, i am also aware of people being dumb and silly in spell selection but if the bonus spell is one of the better spells, such as those you listed do you wait till lvl3 to learn it?
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thanks to morgen for the non-specific answer, can anyone point to errata, a section of a rulebook or a designer post to clarify can a spell which could be duplicated by a bloodline spell/bonus spell, be retrained or do you lose the bonus spell completely if you already know the spell
On a side note directed to morgen,apolgies if the above sounds snarky, but i was looking for an eratted rulebook answer, i am also aware of people being dumb and silly in spell selection but if the bonus spell is one of the better spells, such as those you listed do you wait till lvl3 to learn it?
I'm not trying to be snarky or offensive in any way when I say this so keep that in mind please.
There is pretty much no reason for such a faq or response to exist because it falls squarely within normal reasoning for the rules of the game. Learning a spell you know you are going to get in a few levels in advance is just bad form and until you reach 4th level you won't get the chance to change it out.
Slightly related, our group has house-ruled that the sorcerer get their bonus spells at one level earlier than written. Works well for our group.
Having to wait until level 3 to get spells like mage armor for a draconic bloodline or burning hands for elemental bloodline seems too long imo.
I house rule that if you learn your bloodline feat early, you may choose a different one when you would normally get it. If I'm playing an Aberrant sorcerer/shape shifter I don't want my Shapechange spell at 19th level, I want it at 18th, and I don't want to have to lose out on a spell known to get it.
Slightly related, our group has house-ruled that the sorcerer get their bonus spells at one level earlier than written. Works well for our group.
Having to wait until level 3 to get spells like mage armor for a draconic bloodline or burning hands for elemental bloodline seems too long imo.
Yeah, I mean it's silly to me that they made those spells at those levels... If I am Elemental (Fire) what I'm NOT going to take Burning Hands at level 1? It's like the quintessential level 1 fire spell...
And yeah, I also house rule that you can take the spells early, then get a replacement at the level it says, just cause of what I said above
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No. A sorceror's bloodline and extra spells known from his bloodline are tied to his sorceror level, not his overall level.
Think of it this way: If a fighter takes a PrC that advances his BAB, does he still gain bonus feats?
If the PrC says that he gains them then he would.
The +1 arcane casting calls out spells known.. bloodline spells are spells known.
Now it does not advance OTHER bloodline abilities.. that's easy.
-James
Actually Bloodline spells are not "Spells Known" in the same sense the rest of the spells a sorcerer knows are. A sorcerer has specific list for "Spells Known" which is on table 3-5: Sorcerer's Spells Known. A sorcerer only gets spells from his bloodline if the PrC also advances his bloodline (like Dragon Disciple) because they are a special feature of the bloodline, not his spell casting level.
I recall some feats or class features in the 3.x days ruling that if you already had them, you'd get a bonus one of your choice (or Improved whatever, or it stacks from multiple classes) but a lot of other books stated that if you already had the feat, you gained nothing. Overall, I prefer the former and would generally houserule it for people, but I could see some exploits, like taking Finesse Rogue, a totally optional talent, to treat as a bonus feat - especially when there's already a similar bonus feat option as another Rogue Talent.
Don't think I've ever seen anything about bonus spells like the OP has mentioned, but I don't think it's unbalancing to allow it - there's something wonky about thematic Sorcerers (with that particular power literally flowing through them) tapping into a relevant bonus spell two levels later than the Wizard can take it.
Alternately, I think something you could pull off closer to the rules would be taking the spell early, and thus not getting it as a bonus spell, but then swapping it out for another spell when you get the chance - it was NOT taken as a bonus spell for you, so those rules about not getting rid of bonus spells for other ones shouldn't apply - and I would think the bonus spell just might then poof onto your spells known since you're technically supposed to have it. That is not explicitly RAW but I don't see it as opposing RAW either - just one way to interpret an odd scenario.
Alternately, I think something you could pull off closer to the rules would be taking the spell early, and thus not getting it as a bonus spell, but then swapping it out for another spell when you get the chance - it was NOT taken as a bonus spell for you, so those rules about not getting rid of bonus spells for other ones shouldn't apply - and I would think the bonus spell just might then poof onto your spells known since you're technically supposed to have it. That is not explicitly RAW but I don't see it as opposing RAW either - just one way to interpret an odd scenario.
Yeah, that's pretty much how I think I prefer to do it just cause as i said earlier, a Elemental (Fire) sorcerer having to wait until 3rd level to get their primary level 1 spell for their concept? Srsly?
Actually Bloodline spells are not "Spells Known" in the same sense the rest of the spells a sorcerer knows are. A sorcerer has specific list for "Spells Known" which is on table 3-5: Sorcerer's Spells Known. A sorcerer only gets spells from his bloodline if the PrC also advances his bloodline (like Dragon Disciple) because they are a special feature of the bloodline, not his spell casting level.A sorcerer gains spells known via their bloodline as well as from the table. The difference being that those on the table may be chosen, while the bloodline ones are fixed and cannot be dropped.
The wording is not based on spell casting level, but rather advancing as the spell casting class for certain things including spells known.
Advancing as a sorcerer would, via the bloodline choice, add specific known spells. These are added just like the non-specific ones that the individual can choose.
-James
False. Bloodline Spells are part of the Bloodline. They are not under the Spells headline in the class. As such, only effects that increase your bloodline (such as being a Dragon Disciple) increase your Bloodline Spell progression. Similarly, Wizards do not increase their spells known when gaining levels in a prestige class, as their spells known are tied to Spellbook, not Spells.
False. Bloodline Spells are part of the Bloodline. They are not under the Spells headline in the class. As such, only effects that increase your bloodline (such as being a Dragon Disciple) increase your Bloodline Spell progression. Similarly, Wizards do not increase their spells known when gaining levels in a prestige class, as their spells known are tied to Spellbook, not Spells.
Actually Bloodline spells are not "Spells Known" in the same sense the rest of the spells a sorcerer knows are. A sorcerer has specific list for "Spells Known" which is on table 3-5: Sorcerer's Spells Known. A sorcerer only gets spells from his bloodline if the PrC also advances his bloodline (like Dragon Disciple) because they are a special feature of the bloodline, not his spell casting level.A sorcerer gains spells known via their bloodline as well as from the table. The difference being that those on the table may be chosen, while the bloodline ones are fixed and cannot be dropped.
The wording is not based on spell casting level, but rather advancing as the spell casting class for certain things including spells known.
Advancing as a sorcerer would, via the bloodline choice, add specific known spells. These are added just like the non-specific ones that the individual can choose.
-James
While I agree about the bloodline part, most prestige classes that grant extra spell levels specifically say they increase spells per day and spells known.
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On the PrC thing, there is actually pretty standard boiler-plate that goes into any of these PrC´s,
whether Dragon Disciple, Eldritch Knight, or Rage Prophet. I´ll quote Rage Prophet, but it´s basically the same for all of them.
At the indicated levels, a rage prophet gains new spells per day as if he had also gained a level in a divine spellcasting class he belonged to before adding the prestige class. He does not, however, gain other benefits a character of that class would have gained, except for additional spells per day, spells known (if he is a spontaneous caster), and an increased effective level of spellcasting.
Adjusting for double negatives, that basically says...
None of that references simply the ´Spells´ Class Ability as a valid source to draw from.
Bloodline Spells indeed function as Spells Known in all ways, except that they can´t be swapped out of course. Both are spells that you ´learn´.
The ¨additional spells per day¨ bit would seem to also allow gaining Domain slots, or Wizard School Specialist Bonus Slots,
in fact it otherwise doesn´t make sense to separately reference ´additonal spells per day´ when ´spells per day´ was already covered.
(Wizard Specialists would continue to suffer double slot costs for opposed schools, obviously)
If the intent was only to advance the ´Spells´ Class Feature, that would be trivially easy to convey in a concise way,
just as other PrCs or Feats, etc, reference specific Class Abilities (e.g. Bloodline Powers vs. Arcana or other aspects).
Dragon Disciple goes on to clarify in another Class Ability (Dragon Blood) how you can´t actually use Bloodline Spells Known until you gain the relevant Spell Slot, but that is simply a clarification because of DD´s unique situation of advancing Bloodline Powers including Spells Known faster than the Caster advancement. I.e., even without that verbiage, the DD should still gain the Bloodline spells known, because the boilerplate text talking about gaining spells/day, spells known, etc doesn´t distinguish what specific Class Ability grants those, just that they are gained by the Class whose Casting you are advancing. Since you don´t gain access to the Spell Level until later, Blood of Dragons is just recognizing that odd situation and affirming that you can´t use the BL Spell Known until you can actually cast it.
I don´t really feel like this is at all problematic, but I can see how it´s not directly obvious or in-line with expectations people might have had.
Similarly, Wizards do not increase their spells known when gaining levels in a prestige class, as their spells known are tied to Spellbook, not Spells.
Like I said, the gained abilities are never limited to only from the ´Spells´ Class Ability...
Wizard´s don´t gain new known spells because the PrC text says you gain ¨spells known (if you are a spontaneous caster)¨.Wizards aren´t spontaneous casters.
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A sorcerer's bloodline spells are not your typical "spells known". They are BONUS SPELLS that you get for advancing your bloodline. If a prestige class does not also advance your bloodline then you do not gain any benefit from you bloodline, such as spells, feats, powers, etc. It's like saying that a wizard continues to gain bonus feats from being a wizard while he takes levels of a prestige class. It just doesn't work that way.
If I encounter any mechanic in the game that depends on whether you know a spell or not, and I know that spell via Bloodline, I am going to say that indeed that is a known spell for me. Just because the Spells Class Feature has it`s own sub-section dedicated to Spontaneous Spells Known doesn`t mean other Class Abilities also don`t give you bonus Spells Known... Again, the PrC wording says you gain spells/day, spells known, etc, AS FROM ADVANCING IN THE BASE CLASS, not just specifically from the Spells ability. Likewise, PrCs can themselves grant Spells Known, like the Rage Prophet does.
First you must choose which spell to cast.
If you're a bard or sorcerer, you can select any spell you know, provided you are capable of casting spells of that level or higher.
So, if Bloodline Spells are not known spells, it looks like you can`t cast them.
At 3rd level, and every two levels thereafter, a sorcerer learns an additional spell, derived from her bloodline. These spells are in addition to the number of spells given on Table: Sorcerer Spells Known. These spells cannot be exchanged for different spells at higher levels.
As I said before, it uses the exact same phraseology that you `learn` these spells, and it further clarifies that these are `in addition to... Table: Sorceror Spells Known`, but that you can`t exchange them. That it say `in addition` and then clarifies AN EXCEPTION to the Spells Known rules is a clear indication that these Bloodline Spells in fact ARE Spells Known, because otherwise why would we need to be given an exception (re: exchanging) to the Spells Known rule?
It also explicitly allows `additional spells/day` gained from ADVANCING IN THE CLASS, which is applicable to Domain and Specialist School Slots.
Why should Sorcerors not gain Bloodline Spells Known when those Classes gain those Class benefits?
As I said, it is TRIVIAL to restrict the advancement to things granted by the `Spells` Class Ability,
and such distinctions are WIDELY used in other PrC`s, etc, BUT THAT WASN`T DONE.
If you think this is controversial, or want official confirmation, or whatver, feel free to HIT THE FAQ BUTTON.
Also, in the same vein you do not get the free wizard spells for leveling up because anything in the special section of the classes table is not received on level up.
I could ask you where the rules state that, but that would be silly because I know that they don`t state that anywhere... No references exist to WHERE or from WHICH CLASS FEATURE the gained features may or may not come from. Like I said, feel free the hit the FAQ button and hopefully attract official confirmation on the subject.
BTW, quoting a huge wall of text like that to add your 3 or 4 line response is completely un-necessary and reduces legibility of the thread for everbody. Only quote what you are directly replying to and is necessary to make sense of your response. My previous post is still in the thread for everybody to read if they want to.
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Also, in the same vein you do not get the free wizard spells for leveling up because anything in the special section of the classes table is not received on level up.I could ask you where the rules state that, but that would be silly because I know that they don`t state that anywhere... No references exist to WHERE or from WHICH CLASS FEATURE the gained features may or may not come from. Like I said, feel free the hit the FAQ button and hopefully attract official confirmation on the subject.
He doesn't need to. This has already been answered in the FAQ for the Core Rulebook. Wizards don't get free spells when advancing in a prestge class.
He doesn't need to.
This has already been answered in the FAQ for the Core Rulebook.
Wizards don't get free spells when advancing in a prestge class.
CLOSE... BUT NO CIGAR.
I`m completely aware of that FAQ ruling,but the question answered by the FAQ pertains to `free spells added(scribed) to spellbook`.
A quite distinct issue from `spells/day and spells known (if you are a spontaneous caster)`.
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He doesn't need to.
This has already been answered in the FAQ for the Core Rulebook.
Wizards don't get free spells when advancing in a prestge class.CLOSE... BUT NO CIGAR.
I`m completely aware of that FAQ ruling,
but the question answered by the FAQ pertains to `free spells added(scribed) to spellbook`.
A quite distinct issue from `spells/day and spells known (if you are a spontaneous caster)`.
You are correct. Haing seen so many people who aren't aware of that FAQ ruling argue about it that I misread your response.
However, I disagree with you as I regard Bonus Spells as different from Spells Known. Would you give the Witch her Patron spells if she advanced in a prestige class? If, hypothetcally, a prestige class gave bonus spels would you still give those if thy changed to another full caster presige class?
However, I disagree with you as I regard Bonus Spells as different from Spells Known.
Would you give the Witch her Patron spells if she advanced in a prestige class?
I can see the source of confusion,
since spells in a spellbook/familiar count as `spells known` for the prepared caster. BUUUT...Since the relevant rules text specifically says you gain and the Witch isn`t a Spontaneous Caster, no such luck for Witchy. She can add spells to her Familiar whenever she runs into other Witches or finds a Scroll, etc., just like Wizards with PrCs.
If, hypothetcally, a prestige class gave bonus spels would you still give those if thy changed to another full caster presige class?
I actually thought about this when looking at Rage Prophet (since it does grant Spells Known), but I decided it doesn`t work, you choose a Class` Spellcasting Progression for a PrC to advance when you enter it, thus Rage Prophet (or other PrCs) don`t have THEIR OWN Spellcasting progression that ANOTHER PrC could progress... You could choose for PrC #2 to progress the SAME Spellcasting progression as PrC#1 (i.e. Oracle, or whatever base class), but since you aren`t progressing the PrC`s OWN spellcasting, any spells known, spells/day that PrC#1 may grant is irrelevant, you only care about the base Class providing the Spellcasting. Hopefully that mostly made sense... ;-)
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James,
By your logic if a sorcerer were to take levels of Loremaster not only would he get the BONUS SPELLS from advancing his bloodline he would also get BONUS FEATS and his BLOODLINE POWERS would also advance.
That's not how it works. When you take a level of a prestige class you increase your caster level whenever the PrC advances your caster level. In the instance of the sorcerer you get more "Spells per Day" per table 3-14 and more "Spells Known" per table 3-15. Now before you and others start being argumentative about how "bloodline spells ARE spells know or you couldn't cast them", I've never said the BONUS SPELLS you gain from a bloodline aren't known spells. Please look at the titles for table 3-4 and 3-15 in the Core Book, and tables 2-4, 2-6 and 2-8 in the Advanced Players Guide. Each and every one of those are "*class name* SPELLS KNOWN" tables. I'm pretty sure that it's not only safe to assume but not a huge leap of logic than when a PrC says "He does not however, gain OTHER benefits a character of that class would have gained, except for additional spells per day, spells known (if he is a spontaneous spellcaster), and an increased effective level of spellcasting." that they are referring to the Spells per Day part of any caster's table and the SPELLS KNOWN part refers to the SPELLS KNOWN table for each and every spontaneous caster. You'll also note that nowhere on the SPELLS KNOWN table does it list the BONUS SPELLS a sorcerer gains from advancing his bloodline because these BONUS SPELLS are separate and different from the normal list of SPELLS KNOWN from the table.
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Bloodline spells are not "Spells Known" in the normal sense. They are known spells once they have been learned, but they still don't fall under normal Spells Known then. They're still outside the Spells Known progression.
Here are two counters to Bloodline Spells being "Spells Known:"
Blood of Dragons: A dragon disciple adds his level to his sorcerer levels when determining the powers gained from his bloodline. If the dragon disciple does not have levels of sorcerer, he instead gains bloodline powers of the draconic bloodline, using his dragon disciple level as his sorcerer level to determine the bonuses gained. He must choose a dragon type upon gaining his first level in this class and that type must be the same as his sorcerer type. This ability does not grant bonus spells to a sorcerer unless he possesses spell slots of an appropriate level. Such bonus spells are automatically granted if the sorcerer gains spell slots of the spell’s level.
This ability expressly states that the Dragon Disciple adds his DD levels to Sorcerer levels to determing "powers gained from his bloodline." Bloodline Spells are a "power gained from his bloodline." Dragon Disciple advances the Draconic Bloodline, and calls that out. Blood of the Dragons makes specific mention of advancing "powers" (Bloodline Powers), and makes mention of the bonus spells gained from a bloodline as not being granted unless the Sorcerer has the appropriate spell-slot. Bloodline Feats are another DD ability.
Dragon Disciple states that bonus spells are not gained unless certain conditions are met. Implication? Bonus spells are never gained unless a condition is met, namely that something calls out that they are.
The other counter to Bloodline Spells being Spells Known comes from the Bloodline Description:
At 3rd level, and every two levels thereafter, a sorcerer learns an additional spell, derived from her bloodline. These spells are in addition to the number of spells given on Table 3–15. These spells cannot be exchanged for different spells at higher levels.
Note that the additional (bonus) spells are never referred to as Spells Known. They are "in addition to" the Spells Known, implying that they are separate from it. The way I read that is "in addition to, not part of" Spells Known. Part of why is because they are called out under a separate name (Bloodline Spell), and that they are treated differently than regular Spells Known (no swap at higher levels).
Based on the above points (PrC doesn't advance Bloodline unless called out as DD; Bloodline Spells separated and distinguished from Spells Known in multiple ways), I'd say that Spells Known refers fairly strictly to the Spells Known tables, not to any "Bonus Spells" gained from another class feature.
On the subject of the OP's question:
To the best of my knowledge for PFS purposes, I suspect you're wrong. If a Sorcerer takes a spell at Lvl 1 that is the Lvl 3 Bloodline Spell, he would effectively not learn his Lvl 3 Bloodline Spell. Swapping out later wouldn't let you re-learn it. For a non-PFS game, I'd say you were right. My guess as far as PFS, though, is that you've effectively lost yourself a spell. There isn't an official FAQ response, though.
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except for additional spells per day, spells known (if he is a spontaneous spellcaster), and an increased effective level of spellcasting.So spells known are increased. And the bloodline spells are, in fact, spells known else you would not be able to use sorcerer slots to cast them.
-James
Spells Known for a Sorcerer are indicated in the table 3.15, page 73 of the CRB. These are increased when you gain a level in Loremaster.
The Bloodline spells are in addition to the number of spells given in table 3.15. They are not increased when you gain a level in Loremaster, as they are not part of the number of Spells Known given in said table 3.15
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On the subject of the OP's question:
To the best of my knowledge for PFS purposes, I suspect you're wrong. If a Sorcerer takes a spell at Lvl 1 that is the Lvl 3 Bloodline Spell, he would effectively not learn his Lvl 3 Bloodline Spell. Swapping out later wouldn't let you re-learn it. For a non-PFS game, I'd say you were right. My guess as far as PFS, though, is that you've effectively lost yourself a spell. There isn't an official FAQ response, though.
Well, I think it kinda screws over anyone who picks Elemental Fire to have to wait until level 3 to get their iconic level 1 spell or they end up with one less spell than the other elements.
I asked a friend who is running a game and he said he would rule that at level 4 I could switch out the extra copy of the spell, as per the rules. Which, to me is a fair ruling. Sure, I am semi-low on spells for one level, but it's not like I have to make a choice of losing a spell known forever or having to wait until level 3 to do something that my bloodline should darn well know how to do.
Oh and as for the hijack topic:
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Okay, I found this thread looking for an answer to a related but more straightforward question, and I'm having a bit of trouble penetrating all the stuff above to find the answer:
If, once or after a Sorcerer (or Oracle, for that matter) gains a bonus spell from their Bloodline (or Mystery), may they swap it out when they get a future opportunity? For instance: If I don't like the Bloodline Spell my Sorcerer gets at 11th level, may I swap it out for a different spell at 12th?
Okay, I found this thread looking for an answer to a related but more straightforward question, and I'm having a bit of trouble penetrating all the stuff above to find the answer:
If, once or after a Sorcerer (or Oracle, for that matter) gains a bonus spell from their Bloodline (or Mystery), may they swap it out when they get a future opportunity? For instance: If I don't like the Bloodline Spell my Sorcerer gets at 11th level, may I swap it out for a different spell at 12th?
I Think not.
Edit : the book say"At 3rd level, and every two levels thereafter, a sorcerer learns an additional spell, derived from her bloodline. These spells are in addition to the number of spells given on Table: Sorcerer Spells Known. These spells cannot be exchanged for different spells at higher levels."
Another question on Sorcerer Bloodline spells, I know has come up before, but since we're flagging things for a FAQ I figured I'd bring it up again:A sorcerer takes a PrC that advances his arcane casting, which includes increasing his known spells, does he learn bloodline spells this way?
On one hand it's listed as a class feature.
But on the other hand, it is expressly a spell known.
I would think that the specifics (spell known) would trump the general (class feature) but I KNOW there would be variation on this, so I figured it would be worth a FAQ answer.
-James
No. A sorceror's bloodline and extra spells known from his bloodline are tied to his sorceror level, not his overall level.
Think of it this way: If a fighter takes a PrC that advances his BAB, does he still gain bonus feats?
Except, of course, for Dragon Disciple or other PrCs that specifically say they do.
Why can't you learn the same spell twice in 'spells known'? It says you have to pick a new spell when you gain slots, but the bloodline spell isn't chosen - so why don't you get it twice?
Because it's redundant. Sorcerers don't gain anything from having a spell twice.
So if you want a spell that's part of your Bloodline spells, either wait until you get it naturally (and usually, you can't get it until then anyway), or swap it out on your next even level.
Because it's redundant. Sorcerers don't gain anything from having a spell twice.
So if you want a spell that's part of your Bloodline spells, either wait until you get it naturally (and usually, you can't get it until then anyway), or swap it out on your next even level.
Can you provide a rule reference for this? If you can have redundant spells (which I know I can't provide a rule reference for) you could retrain 1 'copy' (the one you picked) to something else.
Then why not just learn the other spell the first time?
If you can have redundant spells (which I know I can't provide a rule reference for) you could retrain 1 'copy' (the one you picked) to something else.
This is a common houserule, I think, but the only allowance the Core Rules make for sorcerers changing their spells known is replacing a spell known on even levels, starting at 4th level. That means you'd have your duplicate bloodline spell for a whole level, and can't use that retraining to fix some other problem in your spell list (like getting rid of a lower-level summon monster that isn't useful anymore).
However, if this is for a home game and not something like PFS, you might want to consider the house rule I outline here.
Then why not just learn the other spell the first time?
Because if I'm a sorcerer with the Fire bloodline, I shouldn't have to wait until 5th level to cast scorching ray.
If you can have redundant spells (which I know I can't provide a rule reference for) you could retrain 1 'copy' (the one you picked) to something else.This is a common houserule, I think, but the only allowance the Core Rules make for sorcerers changing their spells known is replacing a spell known on even levels, starting at 4th level. That means you'd have your duplicate bloodline spell for a whole level, and can't use that retraining to fix some other problem in your spell list (like getting rid of a lower-level summon monster that isn't useful anymore).
However, if this is for a home game and not something like PFS, you might want to consider the house rule I outline here.
I think it's fair if you want burning hands at first level and you're an elemental (fire) bloodline, you just don't get any benefit from your burning hands bloodline spell until you retrain the original one you learned at 4th level.
It's how the rules currently work, and it's good enough, I guess, but 'fair' isn't the word I would use.
Well, better than losing it as suggested above...
Well, better than losing it as suggested above...
I'm confused. Who suggested losing it?
jlighter's post...makes it sound like loss of spell is canon and replacement is house rule.