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I have noticed on the boards a lot of people seem to opt for the point buy method of generating stats rather than the old fashioned method of getting the d6's out.
Am I the only one who uses the 4d6 method? Or am I an anarcronistic relic of an earlier age?
Whilst I wait for answers I will retire to the drawing room to put on my smoking jacket, wind up the gramophone and listen to that newfangled "Jazz" music that has all the ladies aflutter at the tennis club.
The point buy is standard for Pathfinder society. It also sets a good baseline for showing sample characters and builds. I believe that is the main reason they rule on the boards. It puts an even context for comparison.
All that being said I prefer rolling stats every time myself. More variation for both good and bad.
The one complaint I have heard about rolling is it can make for unbalanced party members. Not that they need to be equal but if one is MUCH better then the other it is hard for a DM to challenge one without killing the other. One of the better house rules I like is that if you roll stats, anyone at the table can "Copy" the six numbers rolled by someone else. (not in the same order unless they want the same order.) So that way if one person rolls six 18's then the party all has that and the DM can plan adventures to challenge them. This prevent the poor guy with six 3's from being killed by the first angry barmaid.
I still roll, I like that how the character are not equal. Using point is not bad and I have done that for official games and It works well for that. But making you own game I think nothing beats rolling
I've used 4d6 almost exclusively for the 30+ years I've been playing. Point Buy feels like a 2e abberation to me, something you'd use in conjunction with Players Option: Skills & Powers but not with "mainline" D&D.
No one in our gaming group uses Point Buy, either. I can see the sense of using it for standardized play in Pathfinder Society, though. In the unlikely event I ever join the Society, I'll use it there.
I roll.
Not a fan of point buy.
We do. We always do. Yay.
Am playing in a 2nd ED game where for fun we rolled 3D6 in order down the line.
Virtually everyone I know of uses point buy nowadays, many of them saying that they like the amount of control that it gives them over making their character concept come to life, and most of them also point to better game/party balance.
I only know of one GM who allows/makes his players roll, and his games tend to be as much fun as any others I've played in. He says the only problem he has ever had with rolling would be with the stat prerequisites on Feats, so now he fudges those and allows characters to take Feats even without meeting the stat requirement, so long as the feat fits their concept.
Our group does both, just depends on the GM. I think the point buy system is fair for everyone though.
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Every once in a while I like to run an adventure where the Player only gets to choose stuff that the PC could choose in real life.
So, . . .
Roll for Ability Scores
Roll for Race
Roll for where you're from
Roll for gender (maybe)
Choose your Class
Choose your Alignment
. . . . But that's only very occassionally. If we're gonna do a long campaign or a really good adventure, no, I want my Players to have what they want.
If I want to play a Cleric then I want to make it the Cleric I like, not the one I'm saddled with because of low rolls.
We still roll. Using point buy may work OK for organized play like the PF Society stuff, but I believe the game works better in general if you roll.
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I hardly ever let my players roll anymore. I used to let them choose between point buy or rolling, but I had some very bad results. One player had no good stats and several that were below 10, which is part of the gamble and the rest had point-buy. Some people like to add additional rules, like rerolling ones, but anything that skews the randomness may as well be point buy, IMO.
That said, I am seriously considering lowering my point buy to 15. Players seem to have it way too easy otherwise.
Special note: I very rarely play live tabletop games anymore. All of my recent campaigns have been over Maptool. I can definitely see the appeal of rolling dice for a live game. Nothing beats the sound of those d6's crackling over a nice tabletop.
The group that I play with likes playing with particularly powerful characters, so what we do is roll 4d6 five times, re-rolling 1s, and then just throw in an 18.
Makes for very powerful characters, if that's the kind of thing you want.
I and my group of old fogies wouldn't do it any other way than rolling. I understand why people like the point buy system, for the control it gives them in being able to design their characters, and the level playing field within the party, but we like to roll the bones and live with the results. The random element produces more varied characters, in our opinion, and most of us have played so long that we have a million possible character concepts we have always wanted to play one of which can always be fitted to any die roll. We also shout down anyone who whines because their scores are too low or crows because the dice gods blessed them.
Still rolling 4d6 - and lovin' it
I gave my players the option of 20 point buy or rolling 4d6, which averages arround 21 point buy but with less optimal results. The result was every player chosing to roll. The lowest is 18 point buy, the highest is 31. The difference between them is negligable, and every character can do what they want.
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Oh heavens, no. I haven't done random rolls since 3.0 gave me the option not too. I much prefer even spreads with logic not randomness determining character creation choices. (Being something of a Generic System Kid) Also, it tends to be easier to port characters into organized play and to swap characters between games if everyone has a consistant starting point.
I have noticed on the boards a lot of people seem to opt for the point buy method of generating stats rather than the old fashioned method of getting the d6's out.
Am I the only one who uses the 4d6 method? Or am I an anarcronistic relic of an earlier age?
There are several recent threads on "point buy vs. roll". And "roll" is well-represented in all of them.
Here's one selected at random, for instance, with over 500 responses.
Nope. I'm not sure why you would want to roll honestly. I mean I guess it's kind of exciting, but to me there's always sort of resentment for that guy who rolled all 17s vs that guy with a 14 and 3 8s. Stats count for a lot in the game, including roleplaying cues. I'd much rather play on an even field, even if it results in lower stats overall.
For example, last summer we played a campaign based in PF Beta and we rolled. I rolled 4 17s, a 14, and a 10. I'll never roll that spectacularly again. Even so, I probably would have rather played a 25 point buy game and started with an 18.
I also like being able to make a character without anyone witnessing or watching.
I've been using point buy for pathfinder games. I do like rolling as well since it can be very challenging. My 2nd ed groups all did 3d6 arranged to taste. For me it's funny to see people mentioning point buy as being weird. Until recently I thought of 4d6 drop the lowest as kind of, of a better term, wimpy. Oh and my group was routinely rolling for 1st level hp. No rerolls unless con allowed it and if you only have 2 HP... yeah well. On another note, my understanding is the 4d6 drop the lowest ends up being very comparable with 15 point buy statistically speaking. I suppose point buy is nice if you have a very specific character concept in mind and certain stats/mechanics are needed to reflect that. If I had no idea what i wanted to do. I might take 3d6 in order and see what i could do with it.
Nope. I'm not sure why you would want to roll honestly. I mean I guess it's kind of exciting, but to me there's always sort of resentment for that guy who rolled all 17s vs that guy with a 14 and 3 8s. Stats count for a lot in the game, including roleplaying cues. I'd much rather play on an even field, even if it results in lower stats overall.
For example, last summer we played a campaign based in PF Beta and we rolled. I rolled 4 17s, a 14, and a 10. I'll never roll that spectacularly again. Even so, I probably would have rather played a 25 point buy game and started with an 18.
I also like being able to make a character without anyone witnessing or watching.
See for me and my friends we were always like "Whoa thats freakin awesome." when someone would roll big.
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I always preferred point design over rolling but generally played by the rules given (even if I mucked with the rolling rules with various systems... rerolling 1's, roll 4 dice and drop the lowest, or various methods presented in the 1e version of Unearthed Arcana) until D&D3.0 came out.
Once D&D3.0 came out and made it clear that even the game I'd rolled up characters for since 1978 can be a point design system, any game anyone in our group has run has been point design... including games not designed as such.
One of the guys in my group is running Dark Heresy, which normally requires rolled characteristics. He based a point design system on D&D / Pathfinder's method - with increasing costs as you purchase a higher characteristic value.
See for me and my friends we were always like "Whoa thats freakin awesome." when someone would roll big.Nope. I'm not sure why you would want to roll honestly. I mean I guess it's kind of exciting, but to me there's always sort of resentment for that guy who rolled all 17s vs that guy with a 14 and 3 8s. Stats count for a lot in the game, including roleplaying cues. I'd much rather play on an even field, even if it results in lower stats overall.
For example, last summer we played a campaign based in PF Beta and we rolled. I rolled 4 17s, a 14, and a 10. I'll never roll that spectacularly again. Even so, I probably would have rather played a 25 point buy game and started with an 18.
I also like being able to make a character without anyone witnessing or watching.
It is. But then you start playing, and the guy with all 8s misses every attack, and the guy with all 18s solos dragons. I'm willing to forgo some temporary excitement with rolling stats for a much more even playing field where everyone is able to contribute equally given the right challenges.
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Roll, baby, roll.
We have houseruled our 4d6 system so that if you don't like your first set, you may try again (full set) and even a third time, but you take what you get if you roll up a third set.
We also don't make anyone keep a set where the overall modifer isn't at least a +1.
Point buy is ok, but it lacks...excitement.
I let every player roll and then give them the option to use 20 pointbuy instead with scores of at least 10 before racial adjustments in every ability.
It ends up in the rollers favor most of the times, but it makes sure nobody ever sucks
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RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16
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Dannym, I admit to being curious. I use dice in my own 3.5 campaign, for various reasons, but I'll be the first to admit that most dice systems aren't fair, that is to say, they don't create a table of characters of equal strength.
So, I've got to ask, how do you understand rolling dice (where one character might have much better statistics than her companion) to be "more fair" than a point-buy?
Rolling here. Mostly because it's a lot of fun.
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Just rolled stats for a Gnome Sorcerer to play in a Kingmaker group about a month and a half ago, been having a lot of fun playing him.
Planning on GMing a group through the Slumbering Tsar Saga soon, and planning on rolling for stats there too. I'm going to do something different, though, and give the players 3d6 per stat, with another 6d6 that can be distributed as they wish. They distribute dice, then roll, and take the best 3 results for each stat.
Basically, I'm a big fan of rolling, it adds a lot of excitement to the game, and this is coming from somebody who typically rolls pretty mediocre stat blocks.
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I hate rolling for stats as the method rarely ever gives me anything useful.
I'm not talking about from a power gaming perspective either. 4d6 for some reason only gives me 8's to 12's. Numbers outside of that are exceptionally rare and often happen at the same time. I'll get a 15 and then like two 4's or something.
Plus I like to make characters in my head based off of say a miniature or an idea, so rolling even if I didn't roll super plain average doesn't get me what I'm thinking of.
I hate rolling for stats as the method rarely ever gives me anything useful.
I'm not talking about from a power gaming perspective either. 4d6 for some reason only gives me 8's to 12's. Numbers outside of that are exceptionally rare and often happen at the same time. I'll get a 15 and then like two 4's or something.
If you look at some of the other threads on the topic, a lot of proponents of rolling use something better than plain 4d6-drop-lowest (e.g. you can reroll 1's or you roll up multiple sets of stats and choose the best one).
I roll for 2e and below, point buy for 3e and above.
The systems were made around those styles. 2e-'s static stat modifiers are based around stat rolls - your stats never increase on their own, so the gap between two people never gets smaller or larger, but magic items and spells can place your stats at a specific point. 3e+'s non-static stat modifiers are based around point buy - your stats increase as you level, so the gap between a poorly rolled character and a well rolled character can indeed get even worse as time goes on, and magic items and spells are designed around giving increases to your stats rather then placing them at specific points
For me, it all comes down to this: when I have to roll my stats, it feels like I'm playing a character someone else built for me, and that's just not as much fun. I can still find ways of deriving enjoyment from such games (I'm in one now) but I never develop a connection to rolled characters.
I've never actually played in a game that was point buy. Every group I've ever been in -either as a player or as DM- has always rolled for stats.
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We have pretty much all converted to point buy on my end. We have a few players who moan about wanting to roll...but it's not that they wanna roll, they want high stats because as soon as they roll a 12, 9, 14, 7, 8, 6, they will moan that they should mulligan (PF by RAW has no mulligan rules). You know just to be nice, I started to offer these people a rolling otpion that had duel mulligans. If it's too low (one stat at least 14, total bonus of +1 at least), you can mulligan...if it's too high I can mulligan(anything above a 25 point buy character if played with 15 point buy...or 30 for 20 point buy). As soon as I did that, nobody wanted to roll anymore...go figure. I thought it was a great way to ensure balanced characters with point buy characters.
Is it time for this discussion again? Oh well, it has been a month or two.
Rolling can add "excitement" to the character creation process, with the possibility of high (or low) results. On the downside, it can create large disparities between characters that make it more difficult for a GM to balance encounters. My favorite method is a variation on the 3.x "Organic Characters" (re-roll all 1s): roll 4d6 in order, re-roll any one score (if desired), swap any two scores (if desired). This gives players some control on high (and low) scores, but still has a large variation on the others; it can be "fun" for some to develop the concept from the ability scores, instead of assigning the scores to fit an already developed concept.
Point buy allows players a high level of control over ability scores, while remaining in a fairly predictable range for the GM to balance encounters. It is the preferred method for organized play and requires little oversight from the GM (other than setting the number of points used and any other character creation rules/limitations/options), which can speed up play (characters can be created before the session). On the downside, some players feel characters are developed in "cookie cutter" fashion and it allows hardcore CharOp types to min/max to the extreme (i.e., the dumb, foolish, ugly brute with 7 Int, 7 Wis, and 7 Cha to get the physical stats as high as possible). This is my preferred method for developing a concept and planning its advancement, because of the level of control.
In play I'm pretty neutral between the two (then again, I started with 1st Ed AD&D where the "standard' method was "roll 3d6 in order and see what you qualify for"). As a GM I usually offer a choice between the "Organic" method (with no "do overs") above or Point Buy (typically 15 or 20 points), but once made the player's stuck with it. As a player, I'll use whatever method the GM directs for the party.
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I have always been a fan of the 4d6 method, so when we started making characters for my d20 modern game last week, I decided to let the players roll 4d6 for stats. I sat there in disbelief as 2 of the 3 players rolled all 15s, 16s, & 17s while the 3rd was closer to a standard array with her results. They basically rolled the equivalent of a 50-something point buy while the 3rd player got what amounted to a 30 point buy. Reluctantly, I had to overrule their rolls and go back to point buy in order to reign in their super stats. The 4d6 method generated too much variance for us, so we had to drop it much to my disappointment.
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Every once in a while I like to run an adventure where the Player only gets to choose stuff that the PC could choose in real life.
So, . . .
Roll for Ability Scores
Roll for Race
Roll for where you're from
Roll for gender (maybe)Choose your Class
Choose your Alignment. . . . But that's only very occassionally. If we're gonna do a long campaign or a really good adventure, no, I want my Players to have what they want.
If I want to play a Cleric then I want to make it the Cleric I like, not the one I'm saddled with because of low rolls.
Gender huh? So a D100? :)
My players roll in my current campaign, using Rollbox 5. Essentially, they get 5 rolls of 4d6 drop the lowest for each score.
Produces really high stats. Probably not going to go with that next campaign arc, but it's working really well for this one.
My group has pretty consistantly used the new Heroic method of 2d6+6. We've tried point buy and didn't like it and the auto 6 helps reduce the chances (IMHX) of having party imbalance... though later that can happen with or without point buy.
--Vrock n' Roll the Bones!!!
That's actually really interesting! I like it. I guess if I play in a game where we roll I would suggest this. Aweseome!
My group has pretty consistantly used the new Heroic method of 2d6+6.
New? Hey, the Ringworld RPG was using that method 26 years ago. ;-)