First of all, I want to give a shout out to all the husbands, fiancés, boyfriends and significant others out there who patiently support our hobby even though they may or may not understand it. We women realize that there is a certain social stigma attached by the wider world to those of us that openly proclaim to be table-top role-players, and that you men bear it with a somewhat forced yet patient smile. For that, I say thank you.
Now on to the topic at hand. Namely, why don't you like this game? And more importantly, what can we women do to garner your interest? We, as your loving spouses, love to see you happy, and having fun. We also love slaying monsters, finding sweet loot, becoming heroes, and discussing the finer points of gnome tossing with mid-air enlarge person. Why can't these two things we love co-exist?
I realize that my target audience is not likely to be lurking these forums anytime soon, so I turn my question over to the greater Pathfinder and rpg community.
Fellow GMs,what have you noticed that works/doesn't work to incorporate your more hesitant male players?
Guy players, what first enticed you to the game, and what keeps you playing now?
Perhaps we can gain some enlightenment into this age old question.
Everything you need to know about "getting women into Pathfinder" can be understood in the paragraphs above, if your Wisdom score is high enough.
Consequently, you won't be able to get it no matter how it may be explained to you, until you gain more life experience.
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First of all, I want to give a shout out to all the husbands, fiancés, boyfriends and significant others out there who patiently support our hobby even though they may or may not understand it. We women realize that there is a certain social stigma attached by the wider world to those of us that openly proclaim to be table-top role-players, and that you men bear it with a somewhat forced yet patient smile. For that, I say thank you.
Now on to the topic at hand. Namely, why don't you like this game? And more importantly, what can we women do to garner your interest? We, as your loving spouses, love to see you happy, and having fun. We also love slaying monsters, finding sweet loot, becoming heroes, and discussing the finer points of gnome tossing with mid-air enlarge person. Why can't these two things we love co-exist?
I realize that my target audience is not likely to be lurking these forums anytime soon, so I turn my question over to the greater Pathfinder and rpg community.
Fellow GMs,what have you noticed that works/doesn't work to incorporate your more hesitant male players?
Guy players, what first enticed you to the game, and what keeps you playing now?
Perhaps we can gain some enlightenment into this age old question.
Everything you need to know about "getting women into Pathfinder" can be understood in the paragraphs above, if your Wisdom score is high enough.
** spoiler omitted **
He's hoping that the "aid another" modifier is enough to push it over.
EDIT: And only after I post do I notice the reversal XD Stupid me and high-level pattern matching.
Wow, I feel as if I've stirred up a hornet's nest. Not my intention at all. Perhaps I should preface my original post. [Full disclosure]
Others have given some good advice, so here's my two cp.
* Find out what parts of the game she enjoys and pick a class that features it. Alternatively, does she admire anyone from literature or fantasy, like D'Artagnan or Cato? If so, you can figure out a character concept and class to go from there.* Agree heartily on running mini-sessions so she gets familiar with gaming in general. Studpuffin did this for me even though I'd played AD&D because the jump to 3.5 was significant. A couple of solo practice sessions left me a lot more confident about the new system.
* Be sure not to penalize for things she has stats for but can't necessarily do well IRL. It's escapist. If she can give a good song-and-dance for a RP situation, it's a bonus to Diplomacy. If not, a high CHA will still get results.
* The group can make or break fun. Does she like and feel comfortable with the other people? Maybe she'd enjoy it more if you ran for a small group of her friends, if this is not her social group.
Good luck!
First of all there is a "Slayers guide to Female Gamers" and Mr. Fishy has a copy...Mr. Fishy's Trollop does not approve.
Bringing a female into a guy heavy group can be a challenge. Especially if your group is full of misanthrope monkeys. First look at you friends, are they married, engaged? Have they been on a date?
Are your friends polite and social apt, or howling luntics. Mr. Fishy's friends are luntics, Mr. Fishy's Trollop refuse to play with them. Mr. Fishy isn't sure he wants to play with them either.
Mr. Fishy introduced his Trollop with a solo game. A few rules light games to give her a chance to learn the system before playing in a group. She's more comfortable now. She will talk to and recruit anything that will talk back. She befriended a villian. Damn female.
First of all, I want to give a shout out to all the husbands, fiancés, boyfriends and significant others out there who patiently support our hobby even though they may or may not understand it. We women realize that there is a certain social stigma attached by the wider world to those of us that openly proclaim to be table-top role-players, and that you men bear it with a somewhat forced yet patient smile. For that, I say thank you.
Now on to the topic at hand. Namely, why don't you like this game? And more importantly, what can we women do to garner your interest? We, as your loving spouses, love to see you happy, and having fun. We also love slaying monsters, finding sweet loot, becoming heroes, and discussing the finer points of gnome tossing with mid-air enlarge person. Why can't these two things we love co-exist?
I realize that my target audience is not likely to be lurking these forums anytime soon, so I turn my question over to the greater Pathfinder and rpg community.
Fellow GMs,what have you noticed that works/doesn't work to incorporate your more hesitant male players?
Guy players, what first enticed you to the game, and what keeps you playing now?
Perhaps we can gain some enlightenment into this age old question.
Everything you need to know about "getting women into Pathfinder" can be understood in the paragraphs above, if your Wisdom score is high enough.
** spoiler omitted **
I heart you, owl-faced wisdom guy. (ETA: Or owl-faced wisdom female? Forgot I don't actually know which). This is a good post.
I also heart Mr. Fishy, but I respect his Trollop too much to make a move.
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A few things work wonderfully for luring maidens to the dank, masculine world of D&D. Take note. First, wash your home with a light lavender and chamomile scented cleaner, something that comes in a curvaceous, rounded bottle with snap-top cap. Let the place air out for at least two hours after this scrub. If you have south facing windows, open these first as it lets in the most non-judgmental breeze. Next you'll want to weigh down the corners of your battle mat with sachets of bath salt, preferably in pink or pale blue netting. Keep a box of spares close by as broads are prone to snatch them from the table at the most inopportune times, like in the middle of a mini heavy battle. Do not attempt to retrieve these sachets: women are fickle and it is best to let them have what they want, especially if it calms them.
Speaking of minis, be sure to have at least 6 well painted lady-minis on hand of the following variety: two sorcerers, one druid, one bard, one chick with fairy wings and one paladin. You can paint these using any colors, but deep purples and blues are ideal.
Now lets get the books. D&D is a frightening hobby to women largely because of the math; as we all know math is difficult for little girls and it doesn't get any easier for them as they mature. It's embarrassing and, 99% of the time, it's the biggest challenge in attracting and maintaining female gamers.
This is where I advise preparing a set of special books for the ladies at your table. Take two Pathfinder Core Rulebooks and one Pathfinder Bestiary and simply cover the stat blocks and tables with post-it notes. Don't worry, as long as the flavor text is still there they won't miss the numbers. Next take a silver or gold gel pen and add some affirming or amusing quotes on the post-its. Anything written by Joss Whedon, Gail Simone or Rachel Ray should do just fine. This may seem like a lot of work but trust me, the appreciative smiles and coy giggles could lift the moods at Mordor.
If you feel like going that extra mile, custom book jackets are always a hit. In my own gameroom I have a spare set of the Pathfinder core line done up in quilted silk and cabochon crystals (hot glued, of course). The dames love it!
I also suggest baking some cookies, lighting some candles and putting on a little Tori Amos or Sarah McLachlan to set the mood at the table. I hear pheromones work too.
Good luck!
Another note. Many people are uncomfortable roleplaying in a group they are not familiar with. If she does not know the people outside of the gaming table, she may be extremely uncomfortable with the more social aspects of the game and not telling you. Hanging out as a group and NOT talking about anything in the game can help this greatly.
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I guess what I'm asking for is character classes, campaign ideas, adventure hooks, and encounters that wIll resonate more with a female gamer such as my girlfriend. If I could suggest some of these things to our GM, I'm sure he would work them in and hopefully recapture her interest.When you asked her what she wants out of the game, what did she say?
My wife is a pretty hard core gamer, but with RPGs all she wants to do is play militant characters that hack stuff to death. She's even far more of a ROLL-player than ROLE-player, basically just hanging out waiting for initiative to be rolled and not interested in all the "talking between encounters." Recently we played a few roleplay heavy sessions of some RPGs and afterwards was dismayed, saying "all we did those last four hours was talk to each other, there was no killing going on at all. That was boring."
She pretty much breaks every gender stereotype of gaming I can think of.
So from my experience I'd just ask her what she enjoys about the RPG experience first and then find ways to accommodate that.
+1
The original question touched a nerve with the female gamers of the Pathfinder boards, because we tend to think of ourselves as individual people with unique motivations, instead of a hive-mind collective known as 'female gamers'.
In order to lure Dark_Mistress to your table, you might need to run an entirely different sort of game than you would to gain my participation...or perhaps not. It would really be based more on our personalities, previous experiences and general socializing preferences than on the nature of anyone's, ahem, plumbing. However, it seems likely that your post was meant with the best intentions -'how do I get the girl I care so much about to enjoy the pastime that I care so much about?'
You refer to her as your 'future wife', so you presumably know some things about her and probably have occasion to talk about stuff, like feelings and whatnot. Ask her what she likes, what she's not sure about and what she downright hates. Understand that she may not be immediately forthcoming, either because she hasn't thought about it specifically and/or because she doesn't want to hurt your feelings. Then address her concerns and provide more opportunities in game for her to do the stuff she enjoys. The same as you would for any new player that you wanted to keep at the table.
We gamers are an intense sub-culture and engaging in entirely new social activities as an adult can be daunting, especially when everyone else seems to know what is going on except for you. Plus we have our own language of saves, crits and metagaming, layered heavily with movie and TV quotes and sprinkled with the history of all of our past gaming experiences. Its a lot to learn before you even add in a thick rulebook...
She is giving it a shot and you are lucky to have a significant other who will take the risk of doing something new to share in something that is important to you. So find out what you can do to make it a better experience for her. Good luck! :)
I was pretty luck. When I met my wife, we were both chat mods for an online community and both gamers already ;) I would almost say it was RPGs that brought us together ;)
Wait I think I can add a new thing that helps.
Don't be a creeper, make sure the others at your table aren't creepers.
Hey,
First about my personal anecdote that got me interested into this when I was a lil girl: hearing a couple guys behind my seat saying every so and so "Hey man, new cleric spells!". I was just curios about what the heck was spells and cleric (English is far from being my mother tongue). A couple weeks later I kept on playing every day in the school bus until high-school was over. Ah.. good times...
While a lot of girl's expectations and things that could interest her vary, I think the approach to introducing her is key: you want to go with a calm, yet direct sort of "Hey I wanted to show you this cool thing where you get to..." then explainning the basics.
I also think that you should not burden a new girl with explaining the class efatures, feats, and other not so basic stuff. Just ask if she was in a fantasy setting, what kind of character would she like to be. Start with something simple, just some traits, not necessarily background or anything. Does she like to swing a big axe, be some godly representative, wilderness or urabn character, stealthy and seductive type, good or mean, etc. But it would be up to you to make the character and do the crunch.
Do not even explain the rules past "Rolling dice with a modifier determines success, you have better chances of success with thigns you are good at", if you are a good story teller the rest will come naturally. In my experience girls looove good story tellers that can set a nice atmosphere. Then just roll with the punches.
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Ok, snark aside, I'll attempt some real advice. I'm a regular GM (as in I've had games running for the last four years) and the majority of my players are women. In one game all my players are women. Generalizations aren't very helpful, so I'll provide my opinion of their playstyles, likes and dislikes.
Player 1) This player loves well described items, mundane or magical. There's no such thing as just a +1 sword or an basic amulet of natural armor. They're treasures as well as tools. She's a packrat, an epicurean and an archaeologist in all her guises. She's really made me consider the art and culture of stuff in my games. She can occasionally get lost in the minutiae. Tends to play sorcerers and rogues.
Player 2) Bards bards bards. Loved Varisians in my Rise of the Runelord's game. Also likes getting into trouble, in and out of game: being the first one to jump into the mysterious pit, open the forbidden tome or touch 'The Thing That Shall Not Be Touched!'. She's easygoing as long as there's something to do.
Player 3) This player likes tragedy. Dead parents, lost loves, heart rending tales of woe. She also pays the closest attention to the narrative and is the quickest to point out inconsistencies in motivation and structure. She's gung-ho for long fight scenes (hours and hours), but only if she feels verisimilitude has been maintained. Fighting for no other reason than "it's there" will piss her off. Usually plays rogues, paladins or rangers.
Player 4) This player loves to hang out and chat, sometimes making fun of how self serious Player 1 and Player 3 are. But she brings good food and seems constantly excited, so I'm cool with her. Unsurprisingly she's the worst with the rules, but she always wants to play a wizard. Player 3 has had some success convincing her to play a fighter or a barbarian instead.
Player 5) I swear this player is narcoleptic. I know she's into it because she keeps a journal for her characters, but she's usually half- conscious two hours into the session. She likes to play the freakiest race she can get away with (drow, centaurs, half-goblins, dryads). She picks whatever class best exploits the race. Totally my twink player.
Player 6) This player likes the idea of tiny races drinking mead and beating the crap out of things. Gnomes and halflings, usually fighters or barbarians. Her characters are like a female Belkar Bitterleaf. When she and Player 1 game together they co-conspire to turn city adventures into elaborate shopping trips. Not in a stereotypical 'girls like shopping' way, but rather they're looking to throw down with thieves guilds, assassins and naughty aristocrats. They're very James Bond when they're together.
There you go. There's not really a defining characteristic between them, besides being female gamers. I suppose, as a group, they tend to require more storied encounters than some of my male players. And 'sweet xp' doesn't seem to be as certain of a lure. They're usually more careful as well (well, except for Player 2).
All I can suggest for attracting a new player (of either gender) is to intrigue them with a good story first. Make them want to participate in an epic and worry about the stats and crunch later.
Wait I think I can add a new thing that helps.
Don't be a creeper, make sure the others at your table aren't creepers.
Oh yeah and that goes without saying. It's a prerequisite.
Learn to take a pounding?
Seriously, I never get beaten up by male gamers but the women I game with seem to think it's perfectly fiiiiine to whack me when I GM or play any talky character..
...granted I'm an antagonistic smart arse that thinks he's awesome and all others should kneel before me and worship me as their supreme lord and master but really, come on, coooooome ooooon, sheesh, where's the love huh?
Ok, so my male mates also beat me up.
v_v
Bring it filthy earth monkeys!
The way to get my wife to really enjoy D&D was to let her play weird crap. By which I mean (so far)...a red dragon (using the monster class rules from Dragon), a ghaele eladrin (another monster class), a darfellan barbarian, and a drow swashbuckler in a setting where it was actually illegal to be a drow (i.e. you were expected to kill them on sight).
Another lady I played with made a knight character that was specifically not good-aligned but very honorable. She always enjoyed it when smart NPCs would surrender to her and the other players had to restrain their normal kill 'em all tactics. She also really liked it when she had the only dragonbane weapon in a dragon intensive adventure.
Another lady I played with enjoyed interactions with the other PCs and NPCs. She spent an entire battle stunned by a mind flayer's mindblast but entertained the group by monologuing her character's thoughts when it was her turn in the initiative.
Yet another lady I played with ran a halfling barbarian/scout with Monkey Grip and Leap Attack. What she really enjoyed was killing plot-important characters in one blow. Very annoying.
Hmmm....sounds like just a bunch of gamers to me. If they had mustaches instead of boobs this wouldn't even be a topic of interest. So let's just stop pretending that female gamers are out of the ordinary.
And more importantly, what can we men do to garner your interest?Stop making gender an issue.
Bolded for emphasis. This is pretty much it. Nothing puts someone more in a position of discomfort than purposely singling them out due to race/gender/etc, even if you have good intentions. People are people, and want to be treated as such. I game with 5 different women in 2 games, and the game itself does not change a single bit because they are female. We play the same kinds of games, stories, etc, that we played back when the group was all male.
Instead of focusing on gender, get to know the person. If they have some slight interest in gaming, but are still unsure, figure out what kind of game they are looking to play; the same way you would a male gamer.
If for some reason the OP is purposely going out of his way to get more female gamers specifically, then he's already failed. Unless you are putting out ads for finding gaming groups or players, the players you get are the players you get. I never purposely sought out female gamers, my wife and I just happen to have some friends, who happen to be female, who also happen to be interested in DnD. Gender stereotypes stop at our doorstep; some of the women I game with are the raunchiest, most sex-driven, bloodthirsty players I have ever seen. It's a level playing field in my house.
I was pretty luck. When I met my wife, we were both chat mods for an online community and both gamers already ;) I would almost say it was RPGs that brought us together ;)
Same here! RPG's were the biggest thing we had in common, and what initiated our conversations in the first place. I'm soooo happy I married a gamer. I really don't think a non-gamer would tolerate me for very long...
as the 2nd poster wrote, games with more focus on RP and the charecters is perhaps more entricing to female gamer, i happen to have to in my gaming crew, and we regularily play some of the onder whit wolf games, Vampire the masqurade beeing the favorit. but like the guys in our crew the also want to have their combat moments.
so focus on the RP and tune down the geek talk a bit and you should be fine, after all the more geekish parts of the game is only funy for players familiar with the system.
Wow, I feel as if I've stirred up a hornet's nest. Not my intention at all. Perhaps I should preface my original post.
I've been rping for about 5-6 years now. I enjoy it immensely. My girlfriend of several years, who happens to be the most patient and compassionate person I know, recently started attending these sessions with me. I believe she initially just wanted to try to get involved in some of the things I'm passionate about, just as I do for her (I'm not a big fan of photography, but I could lecture you for hours about ISO settings and white balance).
Anyways, things initially started out okay. Aasimar appealed to her, as did the cleric. But after playing a few sessions as a wallflower healer type, the disinterest really started to settle in. She was overwhelmed by the rules, and every time her initiative came up, or every time it was her turn to be the party's face (high Cha and all), she kind of shut down and gave me a blank stare. Switching to a melée focused cleric who chops fools up with a great sword helped a little, but I fear that she's only a few slow sessions away from giving up on the hobby entirely.
I love this girl. I love Pathfinder. If one has to go it's obviously not gonna be my future wife, but I really would like to find a way to get her as passionate about gaming as I am. I realize that some people just don't take to it as well as others, but I believe there's a middle ground here.
I guess what I'm asking for is character classes, campaign ideas, adventure hooks, and encounters that wIll resonate more with a female gamer such as my girlfriend. If I could suggest some of these things to our GM, I'm sure he would work them in and hopefully recapture her interest.
Sorry for the long-winded post, I just felt the need to clarify that I'm not looking for tips on how to score some Pathfinder nookie :)
I missed this the first time through, my bad. My first response was more generic, I'll try to be a little more specific.
You got the hard part out of the way; she's at the gaming table. In my experience, that's more than half the battle(knowing is the other?). The best I can offer is to talk to her about what she finds interesting and what she doesn't. She could still be trying a lot of things out, so see if that's part of it too.
If she's still relatively new to the rules, try to generalize(NOT dumb down) some of the aspects of gaming overall, and see what catches her attention. For example, my wife is heavy into the RP aspect, not so big on combat. Another friend is all about combat and skill checks, because she has game mechanics to "justify" what she's doing and the math makes sense to her, more than acting out in-character.
The unfortunate possibility is that it just might not be her thing. Maybe offer to play a different game if possible. You can't force someone to like something if they just do not. She's tried the game, let her decide. But, even if she doesn't take to it, that shouldn't mean you have to decide between gaming and her. Surely you're allowed at least a hobby?
A lot of very interesting discussion, including some concerning Seoni and the character's appearances.Hey Just a Gnome, sorry I can't really respond to the bulk of your huge post on the first page, (most of it didn't really seem specifically directed at my statement anyway, though I may be misreading it) as I'm still absorbing many of the things you brought up.
One thing I would like to mention though, out of interest in revealing more diversity, is that my girlfriend has the exact opposite opinion of the Pathfinder Iconics (especially the females)
She likes how beautiful and 'pretty' they are, how well done their outfits and appearances and such. As a matter of fact, what first drew her into Pathfinder at all was noticing the picture of Seoni as I was re-reading the sorcerer stats. "Wow, she's hot, do you think I could play her?"
Those were her exact words.
Also, Seoni does have attributes that are more memorable than just her figure. Her hairstyle, her tattoos. Just because most people stare at the boobs doesn't mean there isn't more to her than that.
My reaction to the comment was similar. I know a lot more women who like eye candy, even female eye candy, in their rule books than I do men. The men who talk about it are often perverted when they talk about it though. I also hang out with a large bi/poly croud though, so I accept that data set is not the norm. I would also like to point out though that many of paizo's art designers are female and love the iconics.
I love this girl. I love Pathfinder. If one has to go it's obviously not gonna be my future wife, but I really would like to find a way to get her as passionate about gaming as I am.
Why? I mean... if she decides that she doesn't want to be involved with gaming, why would it mean you have to give up gaming? Can you not each have your own hobbies that the other isn't necessarily involved in?
I guess what I'm asking for is character classes, campaign ideas, adventure hooks, and encounters that wIll resonate more with a female gamer such as my girlfriend. If I could suggest some of these things to our GM, I'm sure he would work them in and hopefully recapture her interest.
The best person to ask about those things is your girlfriend, honestly. Talk to her about the things she's enjoyed about your sessions, and ask her what she hasn't enjoyed. If you can make this a three-way conversation with your DM, so much the better. None of us can read your girlfriend's mind, so we're unlikely to be able to tell you what she'd like or dislike in Pathfinder.
Sorry for the long-winded post, I just felt the need to clarify that I'm not looking for tips on how to score some Pathfinder nookie :)
For what it's worth, that wasn't the vibe I got from your initial post. The vibe I got from your initial post was more along the lines of, "I've heard that there are mythical creatures called women gamers, but I've never actually seen one in the wild. I don't really believe such creatures exist and I certainly don't expect to find one here, but I'll ask you men if you've seen such a being, and if so, how you went about luring the exotic, unusual creature to your table. On the off chance that any of these mythical creatures do exist here, I'll ask them how I might lure them to my table."
I hope the responses you've gotten have exposed the fallacy of the assumptions you made in your original post. Which is to say, I hope you realize now that female gamers are not mythical, exotic creatures, and that we don't have to be 'lured' into playing. We're people who enjoy a hobby, just like you're a person who enjoys a hobby.
Whether your girlfriend enjoys gaming or not is just a matter of individual preference, and if you want to know what would make it fun for her, then she's the one you need ask.
When it comes to getting women to play try asking them to. Sometimes all it takes is the invite. A lot of women look at it like it's a guys night out time and wouldn't want to intrude so they won't ask to play.
First of all, I want to give a shout out to all the wives, fiancés, girlfriends and significant others out there who patiently support our hobby even though they may or may not understand it. We men realize that there is a certain social stigma attached by the wider world to those of us that openly proclaim to be table-top role-players, and that you women bear it with a somewhat forced yet patient smile. For that, I say thank you.
In line with what Lindisty said, the first thing you can do is stop calling it "our hobby" with implication that it's a boys only club.
In one phrase, you just flat-out discounted the existence of every woman gamer out there. I know you didn't mean to do that. But you need to examine why you THINK that, why you subconsciously worded things THAT way. Because examining that perception and your assumptions and how you express yourself to your girlfriend and women in general are going to make a LOT of difference in whether you intrigue your girlfriend into gaming, or make her feel very, very patronized.
We (women gamers) are not special snowflakes that appear once in a blue moon. We are not "the exception to the rule." There are a lot of us. And there are a lot of men who dislike RPGs. It is a hobby that belongs to gamers, male and female alike. The first thing you need to do is change your perception about how gender does and doesn't play into the hobby.
Paraphrase: How do I get my girlfriend to game?
This is a question you should be asking her, not us.
Relationships are built on communication. You need to say to her, "I really love this thing, it's my favorite hobby, and it would mean a lot to me if you tried it."
That may be all it takes. If she's like, "No it's for nerds, ew!" THEN you can disabuse her of that notion.
As for what races/classes/etc. dude: ASK HER. I know women who love barbarians and women who love bards... just like I know guys who love clerics and guys who love fighters and... there isn't a "character class for girls" out there. Show her the book. Show her the art. Let her read through the class descriptions herself.
And ultimately, she may say no. She just may not be interested. Not because she's a girl, but because like a very many people in this world regardless of gender, gaming is not her thing. And you will have to accept that and move on. Because pushing her to do something she's not interested in is not going to endear you to her at all.
ETA: ALSO: If she's hesitant but willing to try, it would behoove you to offer to do engage in her favorite hobby with her. If she's a career bungee jumper, go bungee jumping with her; if she loves to knit, learn how to make a scarf. The sharing of loved hobbies goes both ways and you need to be willing to give if you're asking her to do the same thing.
PPS: Also, please don't use "the fairer sex"--it's REALLY patronizing. That's what men called women in the 19th century, when women were believed to be incapable of feeling pleasure during sex, expected to wear lung crushing corsets for fashion's sake, told that riding a bicycle was an inappropriate hobby because straddling the saddle was indecent, and were beaten and strapped down and force fed through the nose in prison when they asked for the vote.
Also, I'd avoid "ladies" when you're obviously trying to use the term to kiss up to women. The word "woman" is perfectly acceptable, and least likely to get you in trouble. :) :) :)
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For what it's worth, that wasn't the vibe I got from your initial post. The vibe I got from your initial post was more along the lines of, "I've heard that there are mythical creatures called women gamers, but I've never actually seen one in the wild. I don't really believe such creatures exist and I certainly don't expect to find one here, but I'll ask you men if you've seen such a being, and if so, how you went about luring the exotic, unusual creature to your table. On the off chance that any of these mythical creatures do exist here, I'll ask them how I might lure them to my table."
I hope the responses you've gotten have exposed the fallacy of the assumptions you made in your original post.
I read it more as ignorance (not in the bad sense of the word, but in the literal sense) of the fact that women do play. And who knows, based on his experiences with RPGs and gaming in general, that might be the case. For the longest time, I made the same assumptions. In fact, up until my wife started playing in my group, I had never played a P&P RPG with a female. It wasn't until I started playing WoW and actually heard the female voices on vent that it clicked that women-folk might actually play (it wasn't something I really put a lot of thought into TBH).
BLUF: people's thoughts/perceptions are shaped by their experiences, and in his experience there probably hadn't been female gamers. Not everything is about "the man" (both the literal and figurative man) trying to get women down...which is kinda what I got from not only these posts but some of your other posts as well.
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It's going to be based on what that person likes.
I've played with a few female gamers. Some good, some bad.
Some liked to be treated like one of the guys, others were attention whores. One specific pretty much demanded to be treated like a Mary Sue.
Some liked combat, others liked RP, and still others liked screwing the party over.
Some were great at the rules, other were awful.
Be careful about catering too much to that player, because other players might start taking offense that she is giving special treatment. From personal experience, I find not catering to this new player better overall. The new player may get used to diva status and start expecting it, knowingly or not.
On the flip side, female gamers (and any other gamer coming into a new group)...
The new player needs to respect the existing group. They need to work with a team of people who already know, trust, and enjoy each other's company. They can't come in thinking "I'm a girl" or "I'm special" or believing themselves better. Some of the group may not mind, but others might take great offense.
I wouldn't tolerate any person who comes into our group, makes fun of the group for being stupid/lame/geeks/losers/whatever. You're coming into my world, be respectful before spouting off on things you don't understand or have an opinion on.
It's a 2 way street. The new gamer has to accept certain things in the group, and the group has to accept certain things for the new player. Work with each other, both sides need to hold back a tad in the beginning to get the feel for each other. Male gamers might need to tone down the sex/mature talk, and females have to learn to tolerate a bit of friendly digs.
One very important thing is if the new gamer is a significant other, find out why he/she wants to game with you. It could be that the person doesn't actually want to game, but feels the need to game because of lack of attention.
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To the OP:
You don't have to share every interest and hobby with your SO. While it is nice to share interests, if it's apparent that she's just not that into it, you might be better off to let it drop. Having both shared AND seperate interests is healthy to a relationship...if you spend every waking moment with a person you're bound to get tired of them eventually.
OTOH, if she's showing interest, but just seems intimidated by "performing" for a large group, do what some others have suggested. Write up a few mini-adventures that start off easy and increase in degree of complexity until she's more comfortable with the ruleset and roleplaying. Also, write up her characters for her until she's more comfortable with the rules. My wife gives me a concept and I write up her character sheet...she likes to play but doesn't want to mess with the intricacies of character creation. I use erian_7's character creation excel program and put in every possible combat situation in the weapons block for her primary weapon (PBS, rapid shot, deadly aim, etc.) with as many possibilities outlined as possible so it's all right there and can be easily referenced. This is something I would suggest for any new player...there are a TON of rules and it can be overwhelming at first.
To the OP:
You don't have to share every interest and hobby with your SO. While it is nice to share interests, if it's apparent that she's just not that into it, you might be better off to let it drop. Having both shared AND seperate interests is healthy to a relationship...if you spend every waking moment with a person you're bound to get tired of them eventually.
As this seems to be in response to something I wrote in my post, I feel the need to clarify:
I did NOT suggest every hobby should be shared.
I suggested that since the OP would LIKE to share this ONE hobby with his girlfriend, he should offer to share ONE hobby with his girlfriend.
It's about give and take, not about sharing EVERYTHING. I never said that, and I don't think anyone else did, so I'm not sure where the heck you're getting that from.
Say we have a couple, Bob and Marsha. Bob loves RPGs and has been begging Marsha to game with him. She's kind of interested, but doesn't know if she'll like it, and she's feeling a little pressured by his begging.
At the same time, Marsha really loves fishing. She's a champion angler, and she really would love to have Bob sit outside with her and learn to bait a hook, but he's made excuses not to do it because he's not interested in outdoor activities.
It's not really fair for Bob to expect Marsha to game with him when he's trying to get out of fishing with her. Offering to fish with her would open up a tradeoff that would get her to game with him.
This does not mean that Bob should invite Marsha to his buddies' bowling nights, nor that Marsha should invite Bob to her girls' night out movie nights, or that they should do everything together in general. It's just that if something already is being offered to be SHARED, THEN the sharing needs to go both ways.
Because sadly I need to make these kind of clarifications at this board: I am NOT suggesting the OP is trying to get out of doing other things with his girlfriend. He may already do lots of stuff with her. I was just suggesting that it will give him some bargaining power if he doesn't already have it to try something that his girlfriend would LIKE to share with him.
stuffThat wasn't in response to your post, I'm sorry if I gave that impression. It was simply general advice to the OP...I hadn't read your post yet when I wrote that up.
Call it a bizarre coincidence of brainwaves, then--conflicting or no. :)
First off I play with a group of friends that are generally fairly mature, and they can behave well around the girls fine, some actually game with female gamers in other groups and I am sure most of them will still enjoy themselves.
On the other hand the group we play in is a bit like boy's night for one night per week (if we aren't too busy with life), and I am fairly sure even though they wouldn't want to bring it up they would dislike having girls join in on a regular basis. I am not saying they mind playing with girlgamers I just don't think they want to give up boy's night out.
Just something you might want to consider if that is actually the case in your gaming group.
I read it more as ignorance (not in the bad sense of the word, but in the literal sense) of the fact that women do play. And who knows, based on his experiences with RPGs and gaming in general, that might be the case. For the longest time, I made the same assumptions. In fact, up until my wife started playing in my group, I had never played a P&P RPG with a female. It wasn't until I started playing WoW and actually heard the female voices on vent that it clicked that women-folk might actually play (it wasn't something I really put a lot of thought into TBH).
I wasn't saying (nor do I think I implied) that the OP was bad or deliberately or consciously misogynistic for having that underlying assumption about gaming. What I did say, with perhaps more sarcasm than was strictly required, was that the assumption was wrong, and that it might be nice if he acknowledged the fact that his assumption was wrong.
BLUF: people's thoughts/perceptions are shaped by their experiences, and in his experience there probably hadn't been female gamers. Not everything is about "the man" (both the literal and figurative man) trying to get women down...which is kinda what I got from not only these posts but some of your other posts as well.
Y'know, that's a misperception of me. Not that I expect you to believe it, because you don't know me. For what it's worth, I feel as though remaining silent in the face of gender-based stereotyping or prejudice means I'm condoning such stereotyping or prejudice. So yeah, I do talk about it a lot, both with regards to gaming and other aspects of life. But I talk about it a lot because it's a real issue and it matters to me. And I believe that if I *don't* speak up about it, then I'm contributing to the problem by not actively advocating for change.
Other things are also important to me, but gender issues tend to rear their heads here with particular frequency, and if I'm going to be part of this community, I'm not going to just sit down, shut up, and not comment on it when I notice it.
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I wasn't saying (nor do I think I implied) that the OP was bad or deliberately or consciously misogynistic for having that underlying assumption about gaming. What I did say, with perhaps more sarcasm than was strictly required, was that the assumption was wrong, and that it might be nice if he acknowledged the fact that his assumption was wrong.
That's not what I got out of your post. I got more of the vibe of "how dare you not recognize that women play?!" I was simply pointing out that, if he's asking the question, he's probably never played with or seen women playing RPGs.
Y'know, that's a misperception of me. Not that I expect you to believe it, because you don't know me. For what it's worth, I feel as though remaining silent in the face of gender-based stereotyping or prejudice means I'm condoning such stereotyping or prejudice. So yeah, I do talk about it a lot, both with regards to gaming and other aspects of life. But I talk about it a lot because it's a real issue and it matters to me. And I believe that if I *don't* speak up about it, then I'm contributing to the problem by not actively advocating for change.
Other things are also important to me, but gender issues tend to rear their heads here with particular frequency, and if I'm going to be part of this community, I'm not going to just sit down, shut up, and not comment on it when I notice it.
Fair enough...I can see where you're coming from because I'm the same way about alot of things. I guess that's me being a little narrow-minded for not seeing how sexism can equate to other forms of bigotry.
However, I don't think that it's appropriate to make everything into an issue. Just like throwing the "race card" cheapens the effect of outrage and indignation when real racism is enountered, throwing the "sexism card" can have the same effect...that's all I was getting at.
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I think the main issue is you have a new gamer here. Add in the social pressures of her being the only woman, and possibly joining the game as much from a desire to make you happy as her desire to actually play, and even with a great group without any social awkwardness it can sometimes be overwhelming.
There is lots of room for error, awkwardness and misunderstanding on all sides in these situations. The best thing to do is be open and talk about things.
This is your group. You know these guys. You also are the person she is most comfortable with in this group. So you are the bridge. This means you have to be aware of both the group's and her perceptions and needs.
Some basic "new player" considerations: Is this a low level game? High level? INtroducing a new player into a game higher than about third level can be difficult - the options get a little overwhelming and the initial learning curve can get pretty steep. Spellcasting is tough at first too. YOu're learning what all these stats mean, you're trying to understand the combat round and how to keep your character alive and understand what these skills are. Without these basic concepts being fairly well established in your head, you're going to have a difficult time handling the rules of spellcasting.
Clerics are especially difficult for all but their healing and attack spells. Many of their spells buff their allies in very specific ways - you have to understand how stat changes cascade throughout the system, you have to understand which bonuses stack and which don't, you have to understand the differences between protection from evil and shield of faith, and understand when one might be better than the other. And these are just low level spell concerns. It's...overwhelming to try to get that all.
Add in that you're responsible for keeping everyone alive - how do you choose who to heal if there are multiple demands for healing? You don't know the rules for your own character yet, how are you to judge whether you should heal the raging barbarian on his last legs or the rogue when both clamor for healing?
And then she's also, while still integrating with the group, not wanting to cause problems with your, or between you or your friends, and not wanting to look bad as the inexperienced player with a bunch of experienced and unfamiliar people, expected to handle the face duties, role playing conversations and speaking for the group?
That's a lot of pressure on a new player. Any new player. Even with the best group ever, full of easy going and friendly roleplayers, that's a lot of pressure.
But that doesn't help you much - other than to possibly understand why she may be overwhelmed and withdrawing. So...what do you do?
First off - talk to her. Ask her what's up. See if any of these issues are actually her issues - because I'm just trying to put myself in her shoes, I'm not her, I don't know if these possibilities are actually what's contributing to her withdrawal. Only she knows - and you need to ask her, then listen to what she says.
Second - When I am DMing a new player, I ask what they want to play - and then I create the mechanics off of what they want to do. I explain what choices I'm making for their character initially - and assure them that they will be allowed to remake their character as needed as they learn the game and decide they may wish to make changes.
I also try to steer them away from pure spellcasting classes at first. I won't prevent a player from being a wizard if that's what they want, but I try to explain that it can be a little rules heavy. If a new player really wants to go arcane, I tend to steer them to sorceror - that way they only need to be really familiar with a few spells.
Divine is harder - both druid and cleric have a lot of complexity to play well - they require a good understanding of how stat changes affect a character's combat ability. If they want to heal, I tend to steer them toward Paladin - the mechanics are easier, if less efficient. If they want the druid stuff, I generally encourage a focus on the animal companion and expect they'll need a lot more help than usual.
Fighters and Rangers are easy to play - but difficult to build well. They will need help in understanding how to build toward important feats, etc, and may need a couple of chances to change their feat choices as they gain an understanding of the game mechanics.
Playing one on one games will probably help quite a bit too - a place to learn the rules without also having to integrate into a new social group.
Sure, I'll admit to a fair amount of exasperation, because it bugs me when people deny my existence. And really, I don't know how else to interpret this piece of the original post except as reflecting an assumption that female gamers don't exist:I wasn't saying (nor do I think I implied) that the OP was bad or deliberately or consciously misogynistic for having that underlying assumption about gaming. What I did say, with perhaps more sarcasm than was strictly required, was that the assumption was wrong, and that it might be nice if he acknowledged the fact that his assumption was wrong.That's not what I got out of your post. I got more of the vibe of "how dare you not recognize that women play?!" I was simply pointing out that, if he's asking the question, he's probably never played with or seen women playing RPGs.
First of all, I want to give a shout out to all the wives, fiancés, girlfriends and significant others out there who patiently support our hobby even though they may or may not understand it. We men realize that there is a certain social stigma attached by the wider world to those of us that openly proclaim to be table-top role-players, and that you women bear it with a somewhat forced yet patient smile. For that, I say thank you.
Now on to the topic at hand. Namely, why don't you like this game? And more importantly, what can we men do to garner your interest?
If a person wanted to say, "Hey, I'd like it if my girlfriend would game with me, what are some tips for introducing her to the game?" there are ways to do that without playing up the rarity of female gamers or simply making it sound as if we don't exist.
Y'know, that's a misperception of me. Not that I expect you to believe it, because you don't know me. For what it's worth, I feel as though remaining silent in the face of gender-based stereotyping or prejudice means I'm condoning such stereotyping or prejudice. So yeah, I do talk about it a lot, both with regards to gaming and other aspects of life. But I talk about it a lot because it's a real issue and it matters to me. And I believe that if I *don't* speak up about it, then I'm contributing to the problem by not actively advocating for change.
Other things are also important to me, but gender issues tend to rear their heads here with particular frequency, and if I'm going to be part of this community, I'm not going to just sit down, shut up, and not comment on it when I notice it.
Fair enough...I can see where you're coming from because I'm the same way about alot of things. I guess that's me being a little narrow-minded for not seeing how sexism can equate to other forms of bigotry.
However, I don't think that it's appropriate to make everything into an issue. Just like throwing the "race card" cheapens the effect of outrage and indignation when real racism is enountered, throwing the "sexism card" can have the same effect...that's all I was getting at.
{with apologies to the OP for a bit of a threadjack}
Who gets to decide what constitutes a 'real' issue when it comes to racism/sexism/bigotry/etc. and what isn't? Who gets to decide when it's 'appropriate' for someone to speak up because he or she is feeling marginalized?
I'll leave those questions there without speculating on what your answers might be. They're mostly rhetorical-- I want to stimulate thought, not necessarily debate that particular issue here in this thread. I think we've probably strayed far enough from the thread topic already, but if you want to continue exploring the conversation, I could pop a thread up in the off topic forum.
It's going to be based on what that person likes.
I've played with a few female gamers. Some good, some bad.
Some liked to be treated like one of the guys, others were attention whores. One specific pretty much demanded to be treated like a Mary Sue.
Some liked combat, others liked RP, and still others liked screwing the party over.
Some were great at the rules, other were awful.
Be careful about catering too much to that player, because other players might start taking offense that she is giving special treatment. From personal experience, I find not catering to this new player better overall. The new player may get used to diva status and start expecting it, knowingly or not.
I've seen that type of behavior with male gamers too. I don't think that's gender exclusive.
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I've seen that type of behavior with male gamers too. I don't think that's gender exclusive.It's going to be based on what that person likes.
I've played with a few female gamers. Some good, some bad.
Some liked to be treated like one of the guys, others were attention whores. One specific pretty much demanded to be treated like a Mary Sue.
Some liked combat, others liked RP, and still others liked screwing the party over.
Some were great at the rules, other were awful.
Be careful about catering too much to that player, because other players might start taking offense that she is giving special treatment. From personal experience, I find not catering to this new player better overall. The new player may get used to diva status and start expecting it, knowingly or not.
That's why I said person, not her. I kept using player/person instead of her for that reason.
Now, for the guys:Yeah. She's a chick. She's got boobs. She doesn't think with them. She's here to learn the game, she's here to have fun. She is not here for you to make cutting comments about, hit on, flirt with, make awkward jokes, or feel superior to because you have every feat every published in 3.5 memorized.
Yes. There's something novel and new here. You don't have to piss all over it to prove your alpha male tendencies. Yes, I know, you want to. At last there is something in the hierarchical pack that might be lower than you.
Get. Over. It.
(I still want to see a...
Sorry I'm late.
Ask and ye shall receive!I sense some stereotyping going on on the other side right now (yes, I know you're male, but you're attacking our gender, so for the sake of the argument I will put you on the 'other side'). I don't know if you're joking, but you wouldn't laugh if we berated females, even in jest. It's rude, and has been done. In fact, it's tantamount to trolling. So how about you stop acting like you're enlightened and try a little politeness yourself.
To add to the big ol' pile of anecdotal evidence... I've gamed with quite a few women over the years, and my results so far from women in my long-term games is:
* One wanted to roleplay everything, including sitting on the floor instead of a chair so that her gnome bard would be at the correct height relative to everyone else (unsurprising, seeing as she's a theater person).
* One wanted to loot and sell everything they found, down to pricing out the chairs and tables at the inn they just saved.
* One would get into lengthy arguments over alignment, and how she ought to be able to remain chaotic good while actively setting villagers on fire.
* One was primarily concerned with her animal companion, a snake named, if I recall correctly, Mr. Wriggles.
* Pretty much all the others just really, really wanted to kill things, to the point where several of them would look askance at the dudes talking in funny voices, asking "Can we hurry up and hit people with our axes already?" (That quote would be from my girlfriend's sister, a 5'1" dancer who's never played an RPG or violent video game in her life.)
All of which just goes to support the argument that attempting to profile female gamers is probably less useful than just inviting them into your game and seeing where they take things!
To add to the big ol' pile of anecdotal evidence... I've gamed with quite a few women over the years...
{breathlessly} Tell me about it, stud! ;)
Wow, I feel as if I've stirred up a hornet's nest. Not my intention at all. Perhaps I should preface my original post.
I've been rping for about 5-6 years now. I enjoy it immensely. My girlfriend of several years, who happens to be the most patient and compassionate person I know, recently started attending these sessions with me. I believe she initially just wanted to try to get involved in some of the things I'm passionate about, just as I do for her (I'm not a big fan of photography, but I could lecture you for hours about ISO settings and white balance).
Anyways, things initially started out okay. Aasimar appealed to her, as did the cleric. But after playing a few sessions as a wallflower healer type, the disinterest really started to settle in. She was overwhelmed by the rules, and every time her initiative came up, or every time it was her turn to be the party's face (high Cha and all), she kind of shut down and gave me a blank stare. Switching to a melée focused cleric who chops fools up with a great sword helped a little, but I fear that she's only a few slow sessions away from giving up on the hobby entirely.
I love this girl. I love Pathfinder. If one has to go it's obviously not gonna be my future wife, but I really would like to find a way to get her as passionate about gaming as I am. I realize that some people just don't take to it as well as others, but I believe there's a middle ground here.
I guess what I'm asking for is character classes, campaign ideas, adventure hooks, and encounters that wIll resonate more with a female gamer such as my girlfriend. If I could suggest some of these things to our GM, I'm sure he would work them in and hopefully recapture her interest.
Sorry for the long-winded post, I just felt the need to clarify that I'm not looking for tips on how to score some Pathfinder nookie :)
You are making a key mistake. Female gamers are as diverse as male gamers. It has nothing to do with her gender and everything to do with her. I gaurantee there are things that will appeal to female gamers here on these boards that dont to your girlfriend and vise versa. Approach it with the mentality of what does my girlfriend like as an individual, and not what does she like as a woman.
Next, and probably more importantly. You do not have to choose between the two. I dont want to break into relationship advice, but there is no reason why one or the other has to go even if she ends up disinterested in pathfinder.
Now, as to what to do, one thing i do for all new gamers(regardless of gender), is ask them about characters they like. Does she like fantasy books? This is a great help. Have her think of a character she really liked, or identified with. Have her play something like that character in a campaign that explores whatever is unique and interesting about that character. Most of the time, the rules can be overwhelming and new players have trouble acting and being in character (roleplaying) because of it. If they have a beloved character in mind, it will make it much easier.
If she isnt into fantasy books, think of movies, fan of the princess bride? Maybe she'd like to play the Dread Pirate Roberta? Start with the character then come up with which mechanics work for it.
Thats the long answer. The short answer is, if you actually want useful help here, we need more information on your girlfriend. Because there is no general advice to attract anyone to the hobby other then be nice, open, patient, and accomodating.
I think he meant the OTHER kind of gaming... you know with dice. ;)To add to the big ol' pile of anecdotal evidence... I've gamed with quite a few women over the years...{breathlessly} Tell me about it, stud! ;)
I was all ready to break out in a song and dance number.
I tried sticking my Core Rulebook inside of her Louis Vuitton purse.
This line is a goldmine. I'm very disappointed in the rest of you for failing to capitalize on it. Very, very disappointed.
To add to the big ol' pile of anecdotal evidence... I've gamed with quite a few women over the years...{breathlessly} Tell me about it, stud! ;)*AHEM!*
*Points at Screen Name*
So you're a puffin. Good for you.