Let's Dish Gish

[Mok]

Thinking about it some more, Warlock is winning me over. I just kind of ignored it because it has already been used a great deal.

However, if you take the precedent of the Wizard/Sorcerer split, then you could just continue with another split that weds thematics with mechanics.

The Wizard is intellectually tackling the arcane, the Sorcerer is approaching it from an intuitive level, and so the "Warlock" would be approaching it from a practical level. Heck, you might even want the crucial stat to be Wisdom.

It wouldn't go down well at first, people would whine and complain about it's past history, but I can guarantee that if a base class was published, and it was satisfying to most people, then after a year the term Warlock would have a completely different meaning in people's heads.

On a general level, if someone asks, "What are you playing?" and they said "Warlock" then if they did not know what that meant exactly they'd still most likely have the idea, that the character would cast spells, and that there was some kind of aggressive or edgy element to the spell use.

Over time, give it a decade, a twelve year old in 2020 would assume the "War" in Warlock was obviously meant as pointing to the martial aspect of the class, rather than something like "a male witch" from the show Bewitched.

[TriOmegaZero]

TwilightKnight wrote:

TriOmegaZero wrote:

See, proof that Paizo just asks for feedback so they can print other peoples work without paying for it. Dern pirates. :)

would you prefer the old way...elitist publisher with no regard to what the consumer really wants ;)

Ooo, is it storytime Grandpa? Tell me more about the old times of 3rd Edition! :3

To answer seriously, I'd say I'm happy to have a company that listens to its customers. Paizo feels less like a publisher and more like a community organization.

[Morgan Champion]

Actually I prefer "Dualist". Not only does it sound like "Duelist"
(giving it a martial air) but it's clear from the name that the character class does two things at once.

[Studpuffin]

Actually, I like Armature (though it was a joke above) as it's the little bit between two ends of a magnet.

[Qunnessaa]

The discussion seems to be winding down (Serves me right for lurking too long. (Grins.)), but I’ll mention what I came up with just in case anyone’s still reading who might find it interesting. I’m afraid I’m rather wordy, so I’ve put my comments on the names I found into spoilers.

Carlin

Spoiler:

I know this is normally gendered feminine, but maybe it sounds close enough to carl/churl (in the Scots sense of “stout fellow,” according to my ancient dictionary) to work. Apparently they may share a root, and a fighter/magic-user would presumably be fairly tough for a spellcaster, but I hope “carlin” stresses the magical aspect sufficiently. I can’t recall coming across the word too often, so I don’t think it has associations that render it particularly unsuitable for the type of character at issue, but it may be more common than I think.

Carmine

Spoiler:

The bard strikes me as the closest core class to what seems reasonable for a fighter/magic-user, so I’ve got a soft spot for it that influenced my brainstorming. I like how the same word in Latin can cover ideas ranging from “poem” and “song” through to “charm” and “spell,” so I just took the case of carmen that seemed to work best (ablative). After all, how does this sort of character fight? By means of a carmen, flavoured to taste (as it were)! I was tempted by the genitive “carminis,” but that seemed too close to nonsense in the end.

Cantator

Spoiler:

In a similar vein, I thought of something like “cantor,” thinking that an added syllable might sufficiently distance RPG from normal usage. It’s almost a participial formation, so one might even interpret the “cantator” form as “having been sung,” if one mangles the Latin enough, so that the character sings/enspells her/him -self into shape for battle. That also lets wizards make sneering puns on cunctator=loiterer/lingerer, since fighter/magic-users tend to gain access to spells at a reduced rate in addition to possibly having less access to spells of more general effect than dealing damage directly or enhancing one’s personal abilities. (Yes, I’m geeky enough to construct the name to get a cheap joke in. :) Continuing the side note, you learn something everyday: having just checked my dictionary, I find that apparently cantare preserves more of the sense of enchantment than canere. Hmph.)

Sidereal

Spoiler:

Are not martial prowess and skill in the magical arts like night and day? Yet do the stars not shed light in the darkness? My apologies for the exaggerated rhetorical questions used to point out a rather weak metaphorical motivation for naming our fighter/magic-user. The only thing I have to offer in my defence is my fondness for the duskblade, name and all, with its elven background. “Sidereal” is one word, not nonsense, and not a compound that’s already taken. In terms of replacing “gish,” it’s a bit of a mouthful, but maybe one could say that allowing for mutation (especially if one’s Elven is like Sindarin and based on Welsh) it abbreviates to “sid.” (Pronounced “sidhe,” of course.) Of course, not everyone shares my eagerness to associate blending the martial and the arcane with fey elvish foolishness. :)

Ensemancer

Spoiler:

This errs on the side of compound words on the grounds that exploiting the proliferation of the –mancy suffix doesn’t seem to be too much of a stretch of the naming rules. Hopefully ensis is obscure enough that people don’t feel they need to use a sword or glaive to play an “ensemancer.” (Although, to be sure, I get shivers when I imagine a troop of glaive-armed warriors in gleaming mail, formed in tight array to hold the line, positioning themselves on a battlefield where they promptly unleash a burst of magic made devastating through the use of something like the Cooperative Spell feat. But I digress.) Also, I think “ensemancer” might abbreviate in-game to “ense” naturally enough, which suggests the historical rank of “ensign” to my mind at least, thus avoiding too much nonsense while allowing another punchy monosyllable to replace the Githyanki term.

Just some thoughts; I hope someone can find a use for them.

[anthony Valente]

I hate to say it (and I was jesting before), but "ninja" probably has the closest RL reference to a fighter/sorcerer. It's too bad it's so overused.

There's shinobi however, that I don't feel has been overused.

They both have too close a tie to far eastern culture for my taste to be considered a generic base class. On the other hand, their cultural ties may not be any more obvious than paladin or cavalier being tied to European culture. Either ninja or shinobi does have a similarity to the oni, ogremage from the bestiary.

Further, I still like myrmidon, but if it does have one potential hang-up, it could be that it is very Greek in nature. Not sure that is a bad thing.

[Dreaming Warforged]

Did someone offer Praetorian? I know, I offered Praetor earlier.

[blope]

I like myrmidon. Not sure if the origins of the word fit, but I like it.

[Dragonborn3]

anthony Valente wrote:

I hate to say it (and I was jesting before), but "ninja" probably has the closest RL reference to a fighter/sorcerer. It's too bad it's so overused.

There's shinobi however, that I don't feel has been overused.

Unless you happen to watch Naruto or know someone who does(like me).

[Mairkurion {tm}]

So, I go to mass today, and I see that a bulletin has been left in the pew from a wedding that took place yesterday. I take a look see, and my eye lands on the bride's maiden name. I kid you not, her name was Gish. No wonder she was in such a hurry to marry...

[Xum]

Mandrake! So cool...

[Sagawork Studios]

Benn Roe wrote:

(snip) I think warlock makes more sense except for its use in 3.5, given that Pathfinder is intended to be backwards compatible and all. (snip)

What about a silent 'e' on the end of Warlock? i.e. "Warlocke"

Gah! Who am I kidding? I can't stay away!

And another rule-breaker:

Spoiler:

Warcanist

[YuenglingDragon]

It's been mentioned but I think Cabalist is cool, though it tends to conjure (no pun intended) images of demonic worship.

Primarus
Runist
Rubric

Borrowed from Games Workshop and possibly copyrighted:
Codicier
Epistolary

[Jason Beardsley]

YuenglingDragon wrote:

Borrowed from Games Workshop and possibly copyrighted:
Codicier
Epistolary

Epistolary is a legitimate word, with no copyrights on it, as far as I know. Codicier however, when searching the term on the net, only comes up with 40k references and names of 'virtual profiles' of some kind (such as a blog alias, or a WoW character).

[Fergie]

Zmar wrote:

If you tried to click on the link you'd get that it's a term used to describe engineering networks, supporting structures and other such things (which is probably the reason for all those links on google).

You can just as well call the class armoire :/

I guess it depends which dictionary you go to...

I first clicked on this:
http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/armature
and thought that the various definitions were strangely relevant to a fighter/MU.

I think the joke is going to be on all of us when the class is announced, and it is something like "Fighting Caster" or something.

[YuenglingDragon]

Magikos and Magoi are from the Greek.

Tambiah

Spoiler:

Stanley Tambiah was a Sri Lankan anthropologist who wrote that magic, science, and religion all have their own “quality of rationality.”

Secretist

Mystyrist

Ostane

Spoiler:

Ostanes was a legendary alchemist mage in classical and medieval literature.

Perhaps my favorite: Apocryfist

[YuenglingDragon]

Jason Beardsley wrote:

Epistolary is a legitimate word, with no copyrights on it, as far as I know.

Sweet. Good on you for the research.

I think Epistolary would be a great name for this class. It's a suitably arcane word with no 3.5 associations that I can think of.

[Jason Beardsley]

YuenglingDragon wrote:

Jason Beardsley wrote:

Epistolary is a legitimate word, with no copyrights on it, as far as I know.

Sweet. Good on you for the research.

I think Epistolary would be a great name for this class. It's a suitably arcane word with no 3.5 associations that I can think of.

Ja, but have you seen the definition? lol

[YuenglingDragon]

Jason Beardsley wrote:

Ja, but have you seen the definition? lol

Yeah, Space Marine psykers (equivalent to magic user) are called Librarians. All the levels of Librarian have word related names: Lexicanum, Epistolary, and Codicier. But, hell, its a cool word.

This seems a faintly ridiculous exercise anyway. Trying to come up with a word for something that is two things without making something up is difficult. That's why we use multiple words and portmanteaus in the first place.

This might actually be a good place to introduce psychic powers or something into Pathfinder. Something with a different mechanic than arcane magic as it is currently utilized would explain the ability to use armor and powers other than divine magic. Plus, it opens up a whole range of words that are psychic-y without having weird crossover. I'm not saying that the spells should differ, I don't. But like a divine caster can cast arcane spells with the divine rules, a pschic would be casting spells under a different set of rules also.

[Sagawork Studios]

Sagawork Studios wrote:

Gah! Who am I kidding? I can't stay away!

And another rule-breaker:
Warcanist

add:

Warcanum
Warcana
(but perhaps Warcana is the magic that a Gish uses.)

[Crimson Jester]

So a few words on Warlocks:

The commonly accepted etymology derives warlock from the Old English wearloga meaning "oathbreaker" or "deceiver." A derivation from the Old Norse varð-lokkur, "caller of spirits," has also been suggested.

In the J.K. Rowling book the Tales of Beedle the Bard in the short story "The Warlock's Hairy Heart" in the footnotes it explains, the term is used to denote wizards experienced in martial magic or who have achieved a level of magical distinction.

In the Dresden files, wizards deemed to have violated any of the Seven Laws are termed warlocks; including Thou shalt not kill by use of magic.

Just food for thought.

[Darkwolf]

Crimson Jester wrote:

In the J.K. Rowling book the Tales of Beedle the Bard in the short story "The Warlock's Hairy Heart" in the footnotes it explains, the term is used to denote wizards experienced in martial magic or who have achieved a level of magical distinction.

Um... is this 'footnote' sourced at all or is it another part of the fiction of the book? J.K. is not renowned as a world class etymologist, after all.

[Mr.Fishy]

Maybe suggestions should be pronounceable, not every fishy is a linguist. Mr. Fishy has trouble with English.

[Nikolaus Athas]

Hexarch

[Old Nekron]

It’s that pivotal moment
It’s unthinkable
This gish, this gish (Unsinkable)
This gish, this gish

You can gish me in the moonlight
On the rooftop under the sky
You can gish me with the windows open
While the rain comes pouring inside
gish me in sweet slow motion
Let’s let every thing slide
You got me floating, you got me flying

It’s the way you love me
It’s a feeling like this
It’s centrifugal motion
It’s perpetual gish

It’s that pivotal moment
It’s subliminal
This gish, this gish (It’s Criminal)
This gish, this gish

[Sagawork Studios]

Wolfthulhu wrote:

Um... is this 'footnote' sourced at all or is it another part of the fiction of the book? J.K. is not renowned as a world class etymologist, after all.

It is a part of JK Rowling's fiction, by appearance, so depending on who you ask, it may be arguably about as 'real-world' factual as the footnotes in the Silmarillion (that is to say, not really). The reference can be found at the Warlock Wiki entry.

To be fair to the definition of Warlock as a warrior-magician, Dragon Warriors was using Warlock in that regard years before Harry Potter.

[Jason Beardsley]

Old Nekron wrote:

...

Just.. why :'(

[Mairkurion {tm}]

Psst... Old Nekron, I think you want the Gish song thread.

[Crimson Jester]

Wolfthulhu wrote:

Crimson Jester wrote:

In the J.K. Rowling book the Tales of Beedle the Bard in the short story "The Warlock's Hairy Heart" in the footnotes it explains, the term is used to denote wizards experienced in martial magic or who have achieved a level of magical distinction.

Um... is this 'footnote' sourced at all or is it another part of the fiction of the book? J.K. is not renowned as a world class etymologist, after all.

It is merely her use of the word.

[Mairkurion {tm}]

It argues for a wider, shared context and usage which makes Warlock a good choice.

[Sagawork Studios]

Mairkurion {tm} wrote:

Psst... Old Nekron, I think you want the Gish song thread.

Go here, songters.

[Ardenup]

Man, I really hope this was started because the paizo guys are gonna do a base class so satisfy us gish lovers.

Pleeeaaassse go with a 3/4 BAB/Caster class as this fits the idea of a balanced warrior. Look to the Inquisitor for Inspiration.

Big +1 for Athame

Even made 1- check it out.
http://docs.google.com/Doc?docid=0AXlTYYW9enwPZGQ3M3RicHRfMHFnODh4M2d3& hl=en

Cheers.

[Shakor]

Name Violation wrote:

gestalt

Yeah, I'm adding +1 to this. In SRD terms, we know what it means and why. It is not used as a class as far as I can see. At worst, I figure it is less confusing than reusing Complete Arcane's Warlock class

[Themetricsystem]

Shakor wrote:

Name Violation wrote:

gestalt

Yeah, I'm adding +1 to this. In SRD terms, we know what it means and why. It is not used as a class as far as I can see. At worst, I figure it is less confusing than reusing Complete Arcane's Warlock class

I wouldn't mind seeing something with a few more flavorful variants on the existing classes balanced against what already is. Something like a ranger with an advanced spellcasting meter at a loss for fighting style or terrain perhaps? Or a martial variant on the Bard and Sorcerer would be a cool spin.

[Sothmektri]

Evil Lincoln wrote:

Except that no other base class is named for a made-up word, or a metaphor, or a portmanteau, or a compound word.

How dare we stray from a tradition that stretches back all the way to... oh, the 70's? Nevermind.

Seriously, though, who cares? I'd rather a word that was made up and defined on the spot vs further bastardization of perfectly innocent words minding their own business.

Think of the effect over time on the segment of the population that will actually follow a link to *this* when told a definition awaits them there. Its cruel. One day they'll be standing in some game store telling their buddy that a myrmidon is a guy who fights with a sword but can cast spells, and they'll be overheard by some thwarted history professor running some miniature game, and he'll snap his suspenders authoritatively and go on about the Trojan War for the next half an hour, all the while the kids' eyes glaze over as they miss their medication time. Then they're running across the street to the Jack In the Box in a raving manic fit, where they just start drinking soda straight out of the dispenser, and when the police come all the kids have to say for themselves is, 'WE JUST WANTED TO PLAY PATHFINDER!!! IT WAS THE MYRMIDONS! THE MYRMIDONS MADE US DO IT!!!'

...and the headline the next day is 'roleplaying game drives local youths to refuse medication', and it'll be on your head, Evil Lincoln! Just like the Reconstruction not having included waterslides with bbq sauce in em! I hope you're happy!

[Evil Lincoln]

Sothmektri wrote:

Evil Lincoln wrote:

Except that no other base class is named for a made-up word, or a metaphor, or a portmanteau, or a compound word.

How dare we stray from a tradition that stretches back all the way to... oh, the 70's? Nevermind.

Seriously, though, who cares? I'd rather a word that was made up and defined on the spot vs further bastardization of perfectly innocent words minding their own business.

*shrug* I do.

You're not wrong, but it does make a difference to me, actually.

[James Jacobs]

Sothmektri wrote:

Seriously, though, who cares?

An awful lot of us at Paizo do.

[YuenglingDragon]

James Jacobs wrote:

An awful lot of us at Paizo do.

I also find the caring a bit silly. I'm not a big fan of "duodenum," but what am I going to do? It's anatomy now!

Sometimes words like "gish" become part of the lexicon. I don't see anyone trying to get "sinister" to just mean "left" like it used to.

You can call it whatever you want but in a generation young gamers are still going to call it gish no matter what you name your class. I say embrace it. You want a single word that means fighter and wizard? Call it a gish.

[Sagawork Studios]

I think that we all care to a certain degree. But I can see where Sothmektri is coming from. Before Fiend Folio and subsequent reinforcement through official announcements and the like, Gish was just a word: A surname, a Kafir war deity and a Babylonian sun deity, among other things. I believe that what Sothmektri is trying to say that he would be proud to stand by whatever Paizo pioneers as their Gish. Hell, we all would respect that. We stood by Paizo when Rise of the Runelords and the Pathfinder RPG was released and this is no different.

Of course, whatever name is used, I believe that there will be people that will state: “Hey! That’s not what ‘Gish’ is!” I will even put my hand up to say that there is every chance that I may be among them. People are entitled to their opinions and no-one can please everyone all the time. I for one will still stand by the decision nonetheless.
I guess we can only remain encouraged that something has made Paizo sit up and say “Hey! That is Gish!” (or, that is as close to Gish as we are gonna get) and someone here suggested it. Well done to whomever.

[Gorbacz]

YuenglingDragon wrote:

James Jacobs wrote:

An awful lot of us at Paizo do.

I also find the caring a bit silly. I'm not a big fan of "duodenum," but what am I going to do? It's anatomy now!

Sometimes words like "gish" become part of the lexicon. I don't see anyone trying to get "sinister" to just mean "left" like it used to.

You can call it whatever you want but in a generation young gamers are still going to call it gish no matter what you name your class. I say embrace it. You want a single word that means fighter and wizard? Call it a gish.

Wizards of the Coast. Intellectual Property. Gish. Understood as a fighting arcanist. Githyanki/Githzerai. Lawsuits.

[Sothmektri]

Sagawork Studios wrote:

I think that we all care to a certain degree. But I can see where Sothmektri is coming from. Before Fiend Folio and subsequent reinforcement through official announcements and the like, Gish was just a word: A surname, a Kafir war deity and a Babylonian sun deity, among other things. I believe that what Sothmektri is trying to say that he would be proud to stand by whatever Paizo pioneers as their Gish. Hell, we all would respect that. We stood by Paizo when Rise of the Runelords and the Pathfinder RPG was released and this is no different.

Of course, whatever name is used, I believe that there will be people that will state: “Hey! That’s not what ‘Gish’ is!” I will even put my hand up to say that there is every chance that I may be among them. People are entitled to their opinions and no-one can please everyone all the time. I for one will still stand by the decision nonetheless.
I guess we can only remain encouraged that something has made Paizo sit up and say “Hey! That is Gish!” (or, that is as close to Gish as we are gonna get) and someone here suggested it. Well done to whomever.

Exactly and precisely what I was getting at, and thanks.

I'm not saying 'go with gish', though. I actually hate the sound of it due to an evil older kid I watched pick on a deaf kid his age by calling him 'gish-gish' because mean kid thought that's what it sounded like when he talked. Not that it takes more than turning on the television, but I dislike reminders that it is an unjust universe liberally spiced with sociopaths enjoying the suffering of others. I hear 'gish', I think of that, and then wonder why I quit smoking. It isn't anyone else's problem, but I wouldn't complain if I never heard it again.

So, by all means, if you're going to make a class that is basically that then I'm all for calling it something else. I'd just rather it be something original than something repurposed. We're fantasists. We make up names for various things all the time. I don't see why doing so for a player class is taboo. We just might be embiggened by the process, and become a more cromulent society thereby. Schmugilguay to all.

[Sagawork Studios]

YW.

Sothmektri wrote:

I'm not saying 'go with gish', though.

Argh sorry, message-boards are funny that way; especially when the writer is a hack like me. My post should have read:

"I believe that what Sothmektri is trying to say that he would be proud to stand by whatever name Paizo pioneers as their Gish."

...which is really half the trouble with the word "Gish" in the first place: It is both a concept and a PI noun.

[Sothmektri]

Sagawork Studios wrote:

YW.

Sothmektri wrote:

I'm not saying 'go with gish', though.

Argh sorry, message-boards are funny that way; especially when the writer is a hack like me. My post should have read:

"I believe that what Sothmektri is trying to say that he would be proud to stand by whatever name Paizo pioneers as their Gish."

...which is really half the trouble with the word "Gish" in the first place.

Oh, no, I got what you were saying:) Apparently it is a bad communication day on my end all round:o

[Teydyn]

Gorbacz wrote:

Wizards of the Coast. Intellectual Property. Gish. Understood as a fighting arcanist. Githyanki/Githzerai. Lawsuits.

But only if THEY have used the word "gish" themselves, right?

[anthony Valente]

Sothmektri wrote:

How dare we stray from a tradition that stretches back all the way to... oh, the 70's? Nevermind.

…

Seriously, though, who cares? I'd rather a word that was made up and defined on the spot vs further bastardization of perfectly innocent words minding their own business.

So, by all means, if you're going to make a class that is basically that then I'm all for calling it something else. I'd just rather it be something original than something repurposed. We're fantasists. We make up names for various things all the time. I don't see why doing so for a player class is taboo. We just might be embiggened by the process, and become a more cromulent society thereby. Schmugilguay to all.

I don't think tradition or taboo are what's guiding them here. I also don't think it's a sacred cow. After all, there was "magic-user" and "thief-acrobat" in 1st edition. 3rd edition made liberal use of compound words for classes and THAT'S the edition Paizo based it's Pathfinder game upon.

I think it's obvious to everyone that creating a name for this class is like trying to fit a square peg in a round hole. But, it's nice to have a standard that provides a method to creative madness. As well, it's nice that the creators of this game care about their details. Let's not be surprised that the Paizo people care about words they use… they are writers as much as they are game designers after all.

[Gorbacz]

Teydyn wrote:

Gorbacz wrote:

Wizards of the Coast. Intellectual Property. Gish. Understood as a fighting arcanist. Githyanki/Githzerai. Lawsuits.

But only if THEY have used the word "gish" themselves, right?

They did as recently as in 4e Monster Manual.

[Sothmektri]

anthony Valente wrote:

As well, it's nice that the creators of this game care about their details. Let's not be surprised or knock the Paizo people for caring about words they use… they are writers as much as they are game designers after all.

Yeah, and I think it is pretty obvious that no one was saying 'who cares' as in 'it doesn't matter'. No one 'knocked the Paizo people'. Geez. It was in reference to doing it differently than the stated method of getting there which, as you note, in previous incarnations was inconsistent.

[Kodger]

Warcaner ('caner for short) as a variant of warcanist.

You need to Google your suggestions to avoid commercially used names.

[Spanky the Leprechaun]

They don't want to do a squidhead psionicist and call him a brainwhipper, so they damn sure don't want to use "gish."

Even though they could use "Whip It" by Devo for its groovy theme song.