RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16
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Supposing you were running a D&D3.5 game using the 4d6 drop lowest method, arrange to suit with the explicit re-roll rule of total modifiers of +0 or less and not stat higher than a 13.
3 players roll really well:
P1: 12, 14, 16, 17, 18, 18
P2: 10, 12, 14, 18, 18, 18
P3: 12, 14, 16, 16, 17, 18And then the fourth player rolls:
P4: 8, 8, 8, 12, 12, 14
Good enough to not warrant a re-roll according to the official rule1) Would would as GM (assuming the other players were also in favour) ask Player 4 to re-roll?
2) If you did ask Player 4 to re-roll and he declined, would you be happy to run the game with those characters, despite the disparity in scores?
Well, I'll note, for the record, how freakish those first three scores are. I've run an Excel program, examining over 700 "4d6-keep-3" characters and the median comes out to about a 19-point buy. Over those 700 characters, the highest two had point buys of 54 and 53, and those were anomalous; the next highest had a point buy of 45. So, your hypothetical group has three guys who rolled deeply into the top 99.72-percentile.
Player 4 is low, but he's not freakishly so. My analysis places him in the 5th percentile.
I've suggested that one way to keep characters with disparate stats in line is to provide compensatory traits. PCs 2 and 3 should get two traits. PC 4 should get twenty extra traits, or perhaps ten extra feats.
Or, since a level is worth about five feats, you could start him 2 levels higher, and arrange some sort of experience multiplier to keep him there.
--+--+--
If Player 4 decided he wanted to play his "Joe Normal amongst the Gods" character, without any heavy trait or level compensation, I'd be happy to let him, and provide some sort of justification for it. The other characters would need to understand that they're responsible for Joe's safety. Maybe they're elite adventurers, and he's the son of their patroness.
Supposing you were running a D&D3.5 game using the 4d6 drop lowest method, arrange to suit with the explicit re-roll rule of total modifiers of +0 or less and not stat higher than a 13.
3 players roll really well:
P1: 12, 14, 16, 17, 18, 18
P2: 10, 12, 14, 18, 18, 18
P3: 12, 14, 16, 16, 17, 18And then the fourth player rolls:
P4: 8, 8, 8, 12, 12, 14
Good enough to not warrant a re-roll according to the official rule1) Would would as GM (assuming the other players were also in favour) ask Player 4 to re-roll?
2) If you did ask Player 4 to re-roll and he declined, would you be happy to run the game with those characters, despite the disparity in scores?
Well, I'll note, for the record, how freakish those first three scores are. I've run an Excel program, examining over 700 "4d6-keep-3" characters and the median comes out to about a 19-point buy. Over those 700 characters, the highest two had point buys of 54 and 53, and those were anomalous; the next highest had a point buy of 45. So, your hypothetical group has three guys who rolled deeply into the top 99.72-percentile.
Player 4 is low, but he's not freakishly so. My analysis places him in the 5th percentile.
I've suggested that one way to keep characters with disparate stats in line is to provide compensatory traits. PCs 2 and 3 should get two traits. PC 4 should get twenty extra traits, or perhaps ten extra feats.
Or, since a level is worth about five feats, you could start him 2 levels higher, and arrange some sort of experience multiplier to keep him there.
--+--+--
If Player 4 decided he wanted to play his "Joe Normal amongst the Gods" character, without any heavy trait or level compensation, I'd be happy to let him, and provide some sort of...
All probability/percentiles aside, I've actually seen these stats in-game before. I have seen players that roll 3 18's and then add racial modifiers. And.....The game didn't come crashing to a halt. All was well with the world. If the DM was having trouble dealing with us, he sure hid it well.
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It seems to be an issue with Optimization in folks minds, at least to me. They want to be good as the can at what their character concept can be. Now, most of the folks that roll seem to let their players choose where the stats go after rolling, which allows folks to play the Class they like at least.
I think that is the biggest hang up with the Dice Roll method. Folks don't want to play a [insert class] chosen by a random roll. The Point Buy lets them tailor [insert class] they wish to play as good as it can be. Optimized.
If you point buy folks can put stats in any order after rolling , would that change your opinion? Just curious. Or is the chance of 'The Dice Gods' frowning on you still the issue?
Have Fun out there!
~ W ~
BOth are issues.
No one should have the stats dictate what they can any more than they should roll for race and gender.No one should have to play a game gimped while the other ones shine. Might as well tell the guy with nothing better than a 12 to play an npc class. no fun for anyone except the guy that gets off on luck making him better than the rest of the group combined.
It seems to be an issue with Optimization in folks minds, at least to me. They want to be good as the can at what their character concept can be. Now, most of the folks that roll seem to let their players choose where the stats go after rolling, which allows folks to play the Class they like at least.
I think that is the biggest hang up with the Dice Roll method. Folks don't want to play a [insert class] chosen by a random roll. The Point Buy lets them tailor [insert class] they wish to play as good as it can be. Optimized.
If you point buy folks can put stats in any order after rolling , would that change your opinion? Just curious. Or is the chance of 'The Dice Gods' frowning on you still the issue?
Have Fun out there!
~ W ~
BOth are issues.
No one should have the stats dictate what they can any more than they should roll for race and gender.No one should have to play a game gimped while the other ones shine. Might as well tell the guy with nothing better than a 12 to play an npc class. no fun for anyone except the guy that gets off on luck making him better than the rest of the group combined.
On the contrary. No one should have to play a character with no stats higher than 12, even by the 3.5 rules. Please read above for a multitude of actual game rules and house rules assessing why you won't have a player with his/her highest score being 12. Rolling or Point Buy.
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On the contrary. No one should have to play a character with no stats higher than 12, even by the 3.5 rules. Please read above for a multitude of actual game rules and house rules assessing why you won't have a player with his/her highest score being 12. Rolling or Point Buy.
While that maybe true for 3.5, by RAW, that is not true for PF. There is no re-roll clause in PF...which means that you can roll and have a high stat of 12 or lower. The clause getting left out maybe an error...but as the latest errata doesn't fix it, there is by RAW no re-rolls allowed...even if you rolled 7,7,6,3,3,3. BTW, I have seen somebody actually roll this in 2nd ed...and even by 2nd ed standards, that was a legal re-roll as you could not be any class.
So I guess for those who like rolling...how would you feel if you had to play those stats? By RAW, re-roll isn't allowed.
On the contrary. No one should have to play a character with no stats higher than 12, even by the 3.5 rules. Please read above for a multitude of actual game rules and house rules assessing why you won't have a player with his/her highest score being 12. Rolling or Point Buy.While that maybe true for 3.5, by RAW, that is not true for PF. There is no re-roll clause in PF...which means that you can roll and have a high stat of 12 or lower. The clause getting left out maybe an error...but as the latest errata doesn't fix it, there is by RAW no re-rolls allowed...even if you rolled 7,7,6,3,3,3. BTW, I have seen somebody actually roll this in 2nd ed...and even by 2nd ed standards, that was a legal re-roll as you could not be any class.
So I guess for those who like rolling...how would you feel if you had to play those stats? By RAW, re-roll isn't allowed.
That's why we get to roll 3 columns of stats and take the best one. Remember the golden rule of RPGs... the RAW aren't set in stone unless you're playing Pathfinder Society (and that's the main reason I don't care for PFS, btw). Point Buy as is doesn't allow for truly heroic characters imho, especially the lower point buy amounts. If I wanted to play a character with substandard stats, I'd go play Peasant: the Boring.
I really like the idea of having an 18 for my primary attribute without having crap for the rest of my attributes. Rolling makes that a possibility.
On the contrary. No one should have to play a character with no stats higher than 12, even by the 3.5 rules. Please read above for a multitude of actual game rules and house rules assessing why you won't have a player with his/her highest score being 12. Rolling or Point Buy.While that maybe true for 3.5, by RAW, that is not true for PF. There is no re-roll clause in PF...which means that you can roll and have a high stat of 12 or lower. The clause getting left out maybe an error...but as the latest errata doesn't fix it, there is by RAW no re-rolls allowed...even if you rolled 7,7,6,3,3,3. BTW, I have seen somebody actually roll this in 2nd ed...and even by 2nd ed standards, that was a legal re-roll as you could not be any class.
So I guess for those who like rolling...how would you feel if you had to play those stats? By RAW, re-roll isn't allowed.
Sure, there is RAW but there's also the fun of the game. Sometimes RAW doesn't work in some groups, otherwise there would never be a need for errata.
If a DM I played under made me stay with stats like 7,7,6,3,3,3, I would seriously question his idea of "fun". Hence, why so many of use who rolls stats have re-roll options.
Does anybody have any more "Well what if you roll X,X,X,X,X,X, would you still play?" posts? I think we've just about covered this problem. It's turning into arguing for arguments sake.
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RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16
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... there is by RAW no re-rolls allowed...even if you rolled 7,7,6,3,3,3. BTW, I have seen somebody actually roll this in 2nd ed...and even by 2nd ed standards, that was a legal re-roll as you could not be any class.
So I guess for those who like rolling...how would you feel if you had to play those stats? By RAW, re-roll isn't allowed.
Cold Napalm,
Could you please cite me the rule: "You may not re-roll a character's attributes"? Because, as I read page 15, the rules-as-written are completely silent on that issue. I'd be willing to be corrected, however.
The Most Important Rule
The rules in this book are here to help you breathe life into your characters and the world they explore. While they are designed to make your game easy and exciting, you might find that some of them do not suit the style of play that your gaming group enjoys. Remember that these rules are yours. You can change them to fit your needs. Most Game Masters have a number of “house rules” that they use in their games.The Game Master and players should always discuss any rules changes to make sure that everyone understands how the game will be played. Although the Game Master is the final arbiter of the rules, the Pathfinder RPG is a shared experience, and all of the players should contribute their thoughts when the rules are in doubt.
That's "the rules as written".
It makes sense, when analyzing a game system for publication, as Jason and the design team allowed us to do with the alpha and beta playtests, to address the rules-as-written, because it's the ruleset that we're looking to perfect.
It makes no sense to insist that the game doesn't "allow" re-rolling characters, and so insist that a player rolling a character with three 3's must play it.
It's the difference between "when writing the rules, you should probably price ladders as more expensive than 10'-poles", versus "in this campaign, 10'-poles cost more than ladders! I'll corner the market on 10'-poles! And nobody can stop me, because that's the rules!" Nobody plays that way, and only a lunatic insists that the rules-as-written demand that they must.
The extraordinarily rare set of attributes you describe are probably not going to generate a fun character to play. But that's not a condemnation of the Standard method of generating attributes. (If your 10th-Level Ranger is fighting a single hobgoblin warrior, it's possible for the hobgoblin to win. That's not damning evidence that the combat system shouldn't have random rolling.)
--+--+--
In any case, if I were rolling a character, and the stats came up {7,6,6,3,3,3}, and my GM did indeed challenge me to play such a ... person, it would depend on the level we were starting at. If we were at least 6th Level, I'd be fine with that. I'd assign one of the 3's to Charisma and take the Leadership feat. My cohort would have negligable loyalty, and be pretty much her own woman. And then I'd role-play her as a member of the party.
One of the most enjoyable RPG games I've ever been in was when I was 16 or 17 in AD&D.
Five of the six of us rolled craptastic stats, all at once. As in, I was the party Wizard because my highest stat was a 12 in INT.
We chose to keep the characters as a challenge to the GM. The player who rolled decent stats (Two 15s and a 14, nothing below a 9) re-rolled until he got something as craptastic as ours.
The GM, seeing how much fun we were having, completely scrapped his plot.
The new setup? The Kingdom of Faldaran has a high level team of 6 adventurers on retainer. They're sent out to shoot trouble, and troubleshoot.
They were sent out on an important mission, and are very much overdue. The King cannot say that they're missing in public without tipping over a big ass pile of political problems.
Which brings us to the PCs. We were the people who had the right build, race and (with one exception, class) mix to impersonate them. Cue some Polymorph Other spells, and access to their backup stash of gear, and our job was to impersonate them, not let anyone know what was going on...and, oh, by the way, prevent an assassination plot against the King, and try to find out what had REALLY happened to the Crimson Guard.
(We had a neutral good fighter carrying around the Paladin's backup intelligent Holy Avenger, who was smarter, wiser and more knowledgeable than he. Comedy ensued. The Wizard (me) had a floating skull with a bound demon in it offering 'advice'...)
High Stats do not guarantee fun. Good setups guarantee fun. And our DM? He had more fun running what he thought would be a three session squish fest than he would've had running his prepped adventures.
Is there any possible chance that you have a forgotten copy of this issue lying about the office just waiting for me to pick it up? I would be eternally grateful if you do :)
Buy the PDF, as I don't think any amount of money would rip it from my property pile. Most other DM's agree, this piece is sacred text, one of the top five issues of Paizo's Dungeon evar!
Here is a question I am curious to hear responses to...
For all those who like random ability scores, supposing you were running a D&D3.5 game using the 4d6 drop lowest method, arrange to suit with the explcicit re-roll rule of total modifiers of +0 or less and not stat higher than a 13.
3 players roll really well:
P1: 12, 14, 16, 17, 18, 18
P2: 10, 12, 14, 18, 18, 18
P3: 12, 14, 16, 16, 17, 18And then the fourth player rolls:
P4: 8, 8, 8, 12, 12, 14
Good enough to not warrant a re-roll according to the official rule1) Would would as GM (assuming the other players were also in favour) ask player 4 to re-roll?
2) If you did ask player 4 to re-roll and he actually declined saying that he would feel like he was cheating, or that you were taking pity on him, would you be happy to run the game with those characters, despite the disparity in scores?
1: No. And if I was the player, I wouldn't WANT to reroll.
2: Yes.There's really no sense in rolling dice if you're not going to stand by the roll. Rolling until you get what you want just wastes time. If you're gonna do that, may as well, just write down the stats you want.
I am thinking for my custom game to just rip the Hackmaster4E and use them in our bastardized Pathfinder game for when I start the long haul game (Darkmoon Vale to Ptolus to Mwangi Expanse) which will go from low to epic level. Exploding die and all, all the craziness of both loved systems at the fall table.
I personally like the 3d6, get some character points for building yourself, and then go for the traits from the PF...happy days of five hour long creation sessions.
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On the contrary. No one should have to play a character with no stats higher than 12, even by the 3.5 rules. Please read above for a multitude of actual game rules and house rules assessing why you won't have a player with his/her highest score being 12. Rolling or Point Buy.While that maybe true for 3.5, by RAW, that is not true for PF. There is no re-roll clause in PF...which means that you can roll and have a high stat of 12 or lower. The clause getting left out maybe an error...but as the latest errata doesn't fix it, there is by RAW no re-rolls allowed...even if you rolled 7,7,6,3,3,3. BTW, I have seen somebody actually roll this in 2nd ed...and even by 2nd ed standards, that was a legal re-roll as you could not be any class.
So I guess for those who like rolling...how would you feel if you had to play those stats? By RAW, re-roll isn't allowed.
Sure, there is RAW but there's also the fun of the game. Sometimes RAW doesn't work in some groups, otherwise there would never be a need for errata.
If a DM I played under made me stay with stats like 7,7,6,3,3,3, I would seriously question his idea of "fun". Hence, why so many of use who rolls stats have re-roll options.
Does anybody have any more "Well what if you roll X,X,X,X,X,X, would you still play?" posts? I think we've just about covered this problem. It's turning into arguing for arguments sake.
Well your the one who cited that you can implicitly re-roll...and not by GM fiat. And that is not true in PF. You can houserule anything. You can houserule that we play with 99 point buy and the max starting stats is 25. You can say any roll that doesn't have 3 18 at least is a re-roll...but by the rules, rolling a 7,7,6,3,3,3 is a legal roll. So if you use the default generation and you had to live with that by the rules...would you still be so for the rolling? That is the question...not can you rolling something that aweful can be fixed via houserules.
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... there is by RAW no re-rolls allowed...even if you rolled 7,7,6,3,3,3. BTW, I have seen somebody actually roll this in 2nd ed...and even by 2nd ed standards, that was a legal re-roll as you could not be any class.
So I guess for those who like rolling...how would you feel if you had to play those stats? By RAW, re-roll isn't allowed.
Cold Napalm,
Could you please cite me the rule: "You may not re-roll a character's attributes"? Because, as I read page 15, the rules-as-written are completely silent on that issue. I'd be willing to be corrected, however.
The Most Important Rule
The rules in this book are here to help you breathe life into your characters and the world they explore. While they are designed to make your game easy and exciting, you might find that some of them do not suit the style of play that your gaming group enjoys. Remember that these rules are yours. You can change them to fit your needs. Most Game Masters have a number of “house rules” that they use in their games.The Game Master and players should always discuss any rules changes to make sure that everyone understands how the game will be played. Although the Game Master is the final arbiter of the rules, the Pathfinder RPG is a shared experience, and all of the players should contribute their thoughts when the rules are in doubt.
That's "the rules as written".
God damn it, what is it with the people on this board who keep chiming in that rule 0 as RAW. No rule 0 is NOT RAW. It superceeds RAW...but rule 0 in itself is NOT a rule...hence why it's rule 0 and rule #1. Yes you can invoke rule 0 to fix anything you deem wrong in the system...but that does not fix the system as a whole as it ONLY affects your game. You saying you can re-roll stats less then X does not somehow magically make that appear in my book...or PDF or the errata.
What ever happened to ROLLING your stats and letting the dice gods decide?
I would guess that rolling stats are gone for the same reason that zero hit points means dead, that save or die spells are mostly gone, that spells like Disjunction doesn't permanently destroy magic items as well, the same reason it is real easy to buy magic items with the right amount of gold, that hold person gives a save every round, that everybody gets more hitpoints, etc...
Pretty soon a medusa's gaze won't turn one into stone, instead it's going to cause arthritis.
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That's why we get to roll 3 columns of stats and take the best one. [...] Point Buy as is doesn't allow for truly heroic characters imho, especially the lower point buy amounts. If I wanted to play a character with substandard stats, I'd go play Peasant: the Boring.
I really like the idea of having an 18 for my primary attribute without having crap for the rest of my attributes. Rolling makes that a possibility.
If you are quite happy enough to create a house rule to cover for craptastic dice rolls for random roll, I am curious why you wouldn't simply create a house rule to start with a higher points budget if using point buy.
I.e. if you are willing to house rule you are no more likley to play Peasant: the Boring using point buy than you are to be stuck with a play a character with craptastic stats in random roll.
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It makes no sense to insist that the game doesn't "allow" re-rolling characters, and so insist that a player rolling a character with three 3's must play it.
My only issue with not including an explicit re-roll clause in the RAW is that unless prior to every player rolling the players and GM agree a house rule clause, then there is no hard and fast rule as to when you stop allowing re-rolls.
So for example if one Player 1 did roll 7,7,6,3,3,3 then more than likley the GM will say re-roll, even without a house rule or RAW clause.
But suppose Player 2 then rolls 12, 10, 10, 5, 5, 4 and asks for a re-roll, he will may likely be given one.
Then Player 3 rolls 14, 14, 12, 7, 7, 4 - should he be allowed a re-roll?
Then Player 4 rolls 18, 12, 12, 10, 5, 3 - should he be allowed a re-roll? And if not does it run the risk of the player asking "Why can't I have a re-roll when Player 2 got one and none if his stats were worse than my lowest stat?"
And what happens if every player is creating their character prior to the game? Without a hard and fast rule - be it a house rule or RAW clause, you can't get any consistency on an eyeball approach.
House rules can snip such problems in the bud, and that is fine, but TBH I like to play by RAW so that every player is on the same page, and I don't have to create an publish a list of house rules to the players before the game starts. Of course others may be happy to do so, in which case it probably is a non-issue for them.
What ever happened to ROLLING your stats and letting the dice gods decide?
I would guess that rolling stats are gone for the same reason that zero hit points means dead, that save or die spells are mostly gone, that spells like Disjunction doesn't permanently destroy magic items as well, the same reason it is real easy to buy magic items with the right amount of gold, that hold person gives a save every round, that everybody gets more hitpoints, etc...
Pretty soon a medusa's gaze won't turn one into stone, instead it's going to cause arthritis.
Because some people have a different playing style.
I don't get your last comment. It's like, "Well, see, if we make things less complicated and terrible, we need to make the game Fischer Price."
No. That's not how the anything works.
What ever happened to ROLLING your stats and letting the dice gods decide?
I would guess that rolling stats are gone for the same reason that zero hit points means dead, that save or die spells are mostly gone, that spells like Disjunction doesn't permanently destroy magic items as well, the same reason it is real easy to buy magic items with the right amount of gold, that hold person gives a save every round, that everybody gets more hitpoints, etc...
Pretty soon a medusa's gaze won't turn one into stone, instead it's going to cause arthritis.
In your game it causes arthritis!?! Man your DM is strict. In ours games it just gives you a stiffy.
Whilst not totally random, this is what I do when I start a new campaign:
1. Depending on the number of players (not including the DM), nominate one person to be the dice roller. Or if there are 5 or more players, nominate 5 people to roll some attribute dice (this can be determined by rolling a d20 and assigning the responsibility to players who score the five highest results.)
2. The 'Dice Roller(s)' rolls 4d6, discarding the lowest die and tallies the result. For ease of use with multiple dice rollers, I have one set of dice that is passed to each person in turn.
3. In the case of one dice roller, rinse and repeat 5 times. In the case of 5 Dice rollers collect the 5 results.
4. I then 'give' them an '18' as their sixth roll.
5. These six scores are what every player uses, to arrange among their attributes as they see fit.
6. The players may then go away and build their characters, adjusting the scores for racial modifiers as appropriate. They must show working.
I find that this works whilst remaining largely arbitrary. Each player has a perceived investment in the rolls they or their friends make. I find it builds excitement and is a great way to break the ice.
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I was thinking about the Amber Diceles RPG. The way stats are sorted is by auction. I was trying to think of the way to integrate this idea into stat generation for PF. Each stat would be auctioned in something similar to Amber where to spend auction points (which aren't refunded). Anyone think this would work?
S.
I have players roll 4d6 placing them IN ORDER. I then give them a free 16 to place in any stat they want. MOST classes you can play with this method and it allows fighters to sometimes have good charisma, because I like the role-play part of the game. I have even done add an 18 or a 16 and a 14. This way if a person wanted a paladin, they can always add the 16 and 14 to Charisma and Strength.
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I've played the "colorful" PC with low stats. Waaaay back in OD&D (circa 1978), my first experience in RPG'ing was a strict DM using 3d6 down the line. I "earned" the right to play the thief since my Dex was a 9...the only score above an 8. The only reroll rule was if you did not qualify for any class. The group, i.e. the other players, had a great time at my expense as I bungled virtually every thievery check I attempted. To make matters worse, the dwarf had a Str of 17 and all of the Elf's stats were better than mine by at least four points. I'm amazed that I lived to see level three. Alas, I died at the hands of an ogre who caught me picking his pocket. He was drunk and sleeping, but I failed miserably, nonetheless. The two subsequent characters were not much better. Years later, I still shudder anytime I play in a game with a GM that requires rolling for ability scores. Granted the reroll requirements are much more in a players favor, I still prefer the freedom of the point buy system. For those who want the real-world feel of "you're stuck with what you're born with," I counter, "don't insert reality into my fantasy." If I wanted to play a short, fat, balding, middle-aged, white, heterosexual, I can merely look in the mirror. When I play a fantasy game, I have a character in my head and want to create it as precisely as possible, without the risk of an overly-good or overly-poor die roll.
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Does anyone remember method V from Unearthed Arcana 1E? Varying weighted dice for each score depending on your class preference. Want to play a fighter? You get 9d6 for Str, keep the best three. 8d6 for Con, 7d6 for Dex, 6d6 for Cha, 5d4 for Wis, & 3d6 for Int (4d6 was for comeliness). Rarely did you ever see a PC with less than at least one 18 and usually two. I still remember the paladin that one girl played with an 18 in every score except Dex and even that was a 16. Funny, she was not a smart player and died at 2nd level. Guess ability scores are not the end-all.
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RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16
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Twilightknight, that's the "dice pool" option. Pathfinder offers that as one of the major options.
The problem with the Unearthed Arcana version is the insistance that you select your class first. What if your monk still doesn't make monk-minimae? What if you roll 6d6 for your fighter's Strength, and 3d6 for his Intelligence, and get scores of 13 and 18 respectively?
Cold Napalm, if you're claiming that we're using "Rule Zero to fix the system", then you are the first person on this thread to suggest that rolling for attributes is broken. Are you sure that's your position?
In any case, the decision about how to have players determine their character's stats, including the decision whether or not to allow re-rolls, is beyond the rules of the game. Those decision occur before the game even starts. We're all talking here about a wide variety of ways to roll, from a grid to all the players using the same rolled array. None of these are "rules as written". Why do you insist that means the rules are broken??
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Cold Napalm, if you're claiming that we're using "Rule Zero to fix the system", then you are the first person on this thread to suggest that rolling for attributes is broken. Are you sure that's your position?
It can be with the no re-rolls. You could roll the pitiful stats I mentioned and without rule zero, you have to play that. I think that makes the default stat generation troublesome at the least as written. Now most people who roll for stats don´t even come close to rolling the default method anyways (really 5d6 drop lowest , re-roll 1s and 2s?!?)...but that was more of a discussion with somebody else anyways, who assumed you can by RAW re-roll...which you can not. Now the chance of something that bad happening is like 1 in several million range, but there is a thread where somebody rolled like a 2 point character and asking for help. As a DM I like point buy so I don´t have to deal with headaches these stats can bring. If jimmy gets to re-roll, I wanna re-roll too! Well if frank is re-rolling, I wanna keep my 18 and 16 and re-roll the rest. But that´s not fair!...yada yada. I like to just say you have 15 points deal. Although I will be giving 5 points that´s gonna get randomly assigned next game I run.
piont buy is fair, i like fair. I feal no need to hope to be "uber " if the dice like me (most of that mentality cheat or cry if the dice fail) nor need one over optimise if they do not choose to. It is a good balance.
I would argue that, myself. Straight point buy is fair - weighted (like what PFS uses, or is given as options in the core book) is unfair to anyone who needs multiple highish stats, and punishes even single-stat classes who want to be really good at that stat (you know...like heroes are supposed to be).
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piont buy is fair, i like fair. I feal no need to hope to be "uber " if the dice like me (most of that mentality cheat or cry if the dice fail) nor need one over optimise if they do not choose to. It is a good balance.I would argue that, myself. Straight point buy is fair - weighted (like what PFS uses, or is given as options in the core book) is unfair to anyone who needs multiple highish stats, and punishes even single-stat classes who want to be really good at that stat (you know...like heroes are supposed to be).
Then just give massive piont buys, rolls can give less than "heroic" stats and you still must reliably roll high for multi-stat pcs.
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piont buy is fair, i like fair. I feal no need to hope to be "uber " if the dice like me (most of that mentality cheat or cry if the dice fail) nor need one over optimise if they do not choose to. It is a good balance.I would argue that, myself. Straight point buy is fair - weighted (like what PFS uses, or is given as options in the core book) is unfair to anyone who needs multiple highish stats, and punishes even single-stat classes who want to be really good at that stat (you know...like heroes are supposed to be).
Once again, 15 points is more then enough to have 1 high stat and 3 middling ones...which is pretty much what most MAD chaarcters really need. This comes at the cost of 2 dump stats. You can be heroes still. It just costs you some weaknesses...and I'm okay with that.
Once again, 15 points is more then enough to have 1 high stat and 3 middling ones...which is pretty much what most MAD chaarcters really need. This comes at the cost of 2 dump stats. You can be heroes still. It just costs you some weaknesses...and I'm okay with that.piont buy is fair, i like fair. I feal no need to hope to be "uber " if the dice like me (most of that mentality cheat or cry if the dice fail) nor need one over optimise if they do not choose to. It is a good balance.I would argue that, myself. Straight point buy is fair - weighted (like what PFS uses, or is given as options in the core book) is unfair to anyone who needs multiple highish stats, and punishes even single-stat classes who want to be really good at that stat (you know...like heroes are supposed to be).
2 totally tanked stats isn't what I'd call "some weaknesses", it's what I'd call "scrounging for points to barely be able to play the class at all". And you clearly have a very different definition of "high" and "middling" than I do.
You can manage a 16, a 15, and a 14, but only if you tank 2 stats to 7...2 stats at 7 is absolutely horrible for anyone that doesn't want to be a one trick pony (not to mention crippling for many sorts of characters...you want to be a maneuver-using fighter? too bad...that 7 int doesn't let you. Or your 7 wisdom means you don't make it past a level or two, most likely).
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Here's why I dislike point buys - it's the players fault...
Optimised Rogues.
Apologies in advance to the OP of the optimisation (Rogue Eidolon). Your optimisations are fantastic but I am using them as a case in point to why I dislike optimisation (to the extreme) and how I personally have found point buying a little too tempting for some of my players. Not saying the random stops this but Lady-luck can upset (well I'm thinking of one player I have) the best laid plans...
15 Point Buy (standard fantasy):
TWF
Str 10 (0) Dex 18 (10) Con 15 (7) Int 10 (0) Wis 12 (2) Cha 7 (-4)
level 4 increase in Con, then Dex all the way
Brute
Str 18 (10) Dex 13 (3) Con 14 (5) Int 8 (-2) Wis 13 (3) Cha 7 (-4)
Either increase Str all the way or stop off in Dex, Wis, or both
Skill Monkey
Str 10 (0) Dex 17 (7) Con 12 (2) Int 14 (5) Wis 14 (5) Cha 7 (-4)
1st raise in Dex, the rest anywhere
Archery
Str 10 (0) Dex 19 (13) Con 14 (5) Int 7 (-2) Wis 14 (5) Cha 7 (-4)
everything in Dex
Thing I'm seeing is CHA = 7 in all cases. So if I'm to be true to the optimisation I need an unlikeable rogue. Are all rogues somehow deformed and leperous? Mister Skill Monkey won't be showing off their charm skills while trying to case a rich persons party now will they?
This isn't a case of not wanting to play the short, balding fat person in the mirror this is numbers placed for mechanic reasons full stop.
In fact I'm thinking a random rolls system in order with limited "stat" swaps might me more interesting? Then again I guess it's why Ice Titans 18d6 system appeals.
As stated before as DM I can invoke Rule 0 at anytime to curb my players instincts to choose mechanics over flavour.
S.
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While we still sometimes roll dice we use the 4D6 method keep the highest of number method. Never liked the 3D6 method for character generation felt it too limiting and quite frankly not very fun imo. As another poster said playing a fighter with a STr of 10 and 1 Hp sucks. Another problem is players at least in my experiencehave trouble roleplaying characvters with low attributes. Either they do not want to or more often than not roleplayed it poorly. Like a told one of the players with an IQ of 8 "stop running your character like he has less intelligence than a tomato" and so on.
In the end players want to play the characters they see in movies, TV and novels. Low attributes imo prevent that.
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While we still sometimes roll dice we use the 4D6 method keep the highest of number method. Never liked the 3D6 method for character generation felt it too limiting and quite frankly not very fun imo. As another poster said playing a fighter with a STr of 10 and 1 Hp sucks. Another problem is players at least in my experiencehave trouble roleplaying characvters with low attributes. Either they do not want to or more often than not roleplayed it poorly. Like a told one of the players with an IQ of 8 "stop running your character like he has less intelligence than a tomato" and so on.
In the end players want to play the characters they see in movies, TV and novels. Low attributes imo prevent that.
Agreed, that's why I can't work out why someone would optimisae a character such that their INT is 7 or 8 and CHA 7?
S.
The dice Dislike the Fishy. Mr. Fishy rarely rolls greats stats. He roll OK stats and sits next to some one with two 18's or nothing lower than a 14. Mr. Fishy has learned to play with Moxy...and a plan not a good plan just a plan. Mr. Fishy has been threatened with an ELC by two different DM's Mr. Fishy just smiled and apologized for being smarter than his DM...Mr. Fishy paid for that. Then the DM did. Mr. Fishy has been a scour to a campaign before. We saved the world so Mr. Fishy feels than it was a win...Mr. Fishy killed so many high level NPCs. That character still lives in infamy.
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The dice Dislike the Fishy. Mr. Fishy rarely rolls greats stats. He roll OK stats and sits next to some one with two 18's or nothing lower than a 14. Mr. Fishy has learned to play with Moxy...and a plan not a good plan just a plan. Mr. Fishy has been threatened with an ELC by two different DM's Mr. Fishy just smiled and apologized for being smarter than his DM...Mr. Fishy paid for that. Then the DM did. Mr. Fishy has been a scour to a campaign before. We saved the world so Mr. Fishy feels than it was a win...Mr. Fishy killed so many high level NPCs. That character still lives in infamy.
Thank you Mr. Fishy. Perfect example of how the clinically insane with only OK stats (hope Mr. Fishy doesn't mind being quoted as I'm concerned Mr. Fishy has a chainsaw) saved the entire World slaying numerous NPC's the DM probably spent far too long making.
Hats off to the Fish,
S.
Here's why I dislike point buys - it's the players fault...
Optimised Rogues.
15 Point Buy (standard fantasy):
TWF
Str 10 (0) Dex 18 (10) Con 15 (7) Int 10 (0) Wis 12 (2) Cha 7 (-4)
level 4 increase in Con, then Dex all the wayBrute
Str 18 (10) Dex 13 (3) Con 14 (5) Int 8 (-2) Wis 13 (3) Cha 7 (-4)
Either increase Str all the way or stop off in Dex, Wis, or bothSkill Monkey
Str 10 (0) Dex 17 (7) Con 12 (2) Int 14 (5) Wis 14 (5) Cha 7 (-4)
1st raise in Dex, the rest anywhereArchery
Str 10 (0) Dex 19 (13) Con 14 (5) Int 7 (-4) Wis 14 (5) Cha 7 (-4)
everything in DexThing I'm seeing is CHA = 7 in all cases. So if I'm to be true to the optimisation I need an unlikeable rogue. Are all rogues somehow deformed and leperous? Mister Skill Monkey won't be showing off their charm skills while trying to case a rich persons party now will they?
This is not a problem with point buy, this is a problem with how point buy is used.
You could just as well use 15 Point Buy to stat up the rogues as follows:
TWF
13 Str (3), 16 Dex (5 for 14 +2 race), 14 Con (5), 10 Int (0), 12 Wis (2), 10 Cha (0)
+1 Str at 4th level and all other advancements in Dex; Imp TWF requires +6 BAB, which the rogue doesn't get until 8th level (and +1 Dex at 8th level takes care of the 17 Dex requirement); this rogue also qualifies for Power Attack
Brute
17 Str (7 for 15 +2 race), 14 Dex (5), 14 Con (5), 8 Int (-2), 10 Wis (0), 10 Cha (0)
Alternately, you could have a 16 Str and a 12 Wis; advancements will be in Str
Skill Monkey
10 Str (0), 16 Dex (5 for 14 +2 race), 12 Con (2), 13 Int (3), 12 Wis (2), 13 Cha (3)
+1 Int at 4th level (and possibly +1 Cha at 8th) with all other advancements in Dex
Archery (Elf)
12 Str (2), 18 Dex (10 for 16 +2 race), 12 Con (5 for 14 -2 race), 10 Int (-2 for 8 +2 race), 10 Wis (0), 10 Cha (0)
Composite longbow FTW
The problem is the expectation of "I need a 17+ in my highest stat and at least another 15+, two 14s, or a 14 and two 13s." That's not something 15 point buy can do without dropping some stats below 10. If you run into that type of player, you can always try something like "20 point buy, no reducing scores below 10 for more points."
On the original topic, I've always liked the "organic characters" (3.x) method: 4d6 (drop lowest)* in order, re-roll any one score (once), swap any two scores (once). This allows for some choice as to the type of character, but still has some "randomness" in what your particular ability scores are.
*- I usually re-roll 1s, also
Here's a variant for you:
Everyone gets straight 18s.
For every stat you drop below 18, you get the number of 'point buy' points added as a percentage to your XP awards. Selling an 18 down to a 10 gives you a 17% bonus on your XPs. Selling all 6 18s down to 7s gives you a 126% bonus on your XPs.
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On a related note, I have been creating some characters for a Mongoose Traveller game I plan to run. In that there is loads of randomness, not just stats, and I have found it rather interesting and fun - but it was the other random stuff that made it so.
In MongTrav stats are 2d6 assign in any order you wish, there is no re-roll option that I am aware of but I only chose to re-roll one set.
The fun stuff was seeing whether you qualify for a career, what skills you pick up, what events and mishaps occur, where you get promotion or chucked out, whether you suffer from ageing etc.
So, I am very much sure that I would really like to play in a D&D game where pretty much all parts of character creation in randomised and with a GM willing to write a campaign centred around the characters that we end up with.
Where we aren't doing that, e.g. published scenario, choosing races, classes and skills, I still much prefer point buy for abilities.
Wow, I can't believe this thread is still going. Who'd have thought there would be this much fighting over preferences in the same game system. Is this what happens when the Edition Wars fade? We just fight each other all day? Having a preference doesn't mean you have to crap all over someone else's.
Use what works for your group. Period. I really, REALLY, don't get the arguing over this. Neither one is better. You like Point Buy? Use it. You like rolling? Use it. I've rolled stats for 16 years, and we haven't had a fraction of the problems you guys keep dreaming up. Some of you guys have rolled some pretty poor stats, so that method doesn't work for you. Point Buy is better in that case. Guess what guys? They BOTH work.
Seriously, I have yet to see either side "better" than the other at this point. We can argue percentages/probability all day but that accomplishes nothing. I could argue the probability of an Ice Cream truck accidentally plowing through my front room, but that doesn't mean it's going to happen.
Rolling is fine for most things. However point buy places every one on the same level of power stat wise which is helpful at a organized event were the DM and players don't know each other.
At home you know that Bob is a str base brute, and sally is going to play another high dex acrobatic flanker, and George is going to cackle and fireball the party at least once on accident. So rollling is fine because everyone knows the group and their common weaknesses, strengths and insanities. In a home game some one with killer dice rolls may not be the sharpest player leaning on stats and rolls to surivive. The guy next to him may be a lunatic with OK stats, that runs the game on Moxy and a willingness to play the "odds."
At an event you don't have that connection. Everyone at the table could be playing cold. That's were the point buy shines, it's harder to cheat the math than the dice. Also you have PCs with a range of good stats instead of one guy with super stats and one with OK or even crappy stats justing to help.
Also point buy is a good control for playtesting. Any experiment needs as few uncontroled varibles as possible to insure consistent feed back.
Mr. Fishy needs a nap.
One more thing Mr. Fishy fought in the "Tier Wars." If you believe in something then you should be willing to defend it. That said Smurf you all...
If an Ice Cream truck does hit you house, CALL ME!!!!
Crazy rolling method my buddy and i came up with. basically as a GM you decide a good stat range(average) you want your players to have. 16, 14,14, 12,10,10. or whatever you think is solid for your game level. subtract each stat from a base of 8. Take each of those net points and add them together. eg 8+6+6+4+2+2= 28. okay you want crazy randomness but controled dice rolls. here we go. write your stats down on paper as this or whatever variation you like to roll. Str =1 Dex=2 Con=3 Int+4 Wis=5 CHR=6. now take 28d6 and roll all of those crazy dice. let them stay where they lay. make note of each die roll and see what you get. how many 6"s were rolled? how many 1's were rolled? etc.... then write down those totals corresponding with the previous Str=1 Dex=2 etc.. then take those numbers and ADD 8 to them and there you go. random craziness for rolling dice. no stat lower than an 8 and you could end up with a 22 or higher in a stat but the laws of averages would force that to an obscure event. but also would control that your other stats would be lower to help control the character.
ya, i know thats a bit much but its fun and thats the point right.
Rolling is fine for most things. However point buy places every one on the same level of power stat wise which is helpful at a organized event were the DM and players don't know each other.
At home you know that Bob is a str base brute, and sally is going to play another high dex acrobatic flanker, and George is going to cackle and fireball the party at least once on accident. So rollling is fine because everyone knows the group and their common weaknesses, strengths and insanities. In a home game some one with killer dice rolls may not be the sharpest player leaning on stats and rolls to surivive. The guy next to him may be a lunatic with OK stats, that runs the game on Moxy and a willingness to play the "odds."
At an event you don't have that connection. Everyone at the table could be playing cold. That's were the point buy shines, it's harder to cheat the math than the dice. Also you have PCs with a range of good stats instead of one guy with super stats and one with OK or even crappy stats justing to help.
Also point buy is a good control for playtesting. Any experiment needs as few uncontroled varibles as possible to insure consistent feed back.
Mr. Fishy needs a nap.
One more thing Mr. Fishy fought in the "Tier Wars." If you believe in something then you should be willing to defend it. That said Smurf you all...
If an Ice Cream truck does hit you house, CALL ME!!!!
Mr. Fishy wins the Point-Buy side. These are all terrific examples, without slamming on rolling. Organized play, standardized playtesting, level playing field, etc. are all strong examples even I can get behind. Thank you Mr. Fishy!
Simply saying "I dun want crappy stats and rolling r teh suxxorz!" Is not an argument.
*Edit: Why the hell is my Avatar a smurf?