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As a father there comes the proud moment when your son/daughter is able to play the first PFS scenario. Or - to go a step further - the first time you take them to a convention. At the same time you are acutely aware that not everyone likes to have someone young at the table.
Having GMed the first three scenarios for my son and contemplating on a CON (Games Expo UK) to play one scenario together with him I thought I gather some feedback here. I will GM one slot and my wife already looks after the kids for that time - also she will play the evening slots. This would be my only change to play myself. I deliberately stripped off the age in this post - as I don't think a fixed age is helpful in this respect.
As background:
I’m currently GMing the Kingmaker AP with my wife, my son, my daughter, a friend of them and their mother as players. I tried some D&D and the Keep on the borderlands a year earlier - but at that time we didn't got very far as while the children had a lot of fun, concentration didn't lasted long enough for a sensible game.
In addition - my son has so far played three PFS scenarios. In two of these I had three adult players only. I therefore had to make a decision according to the play, play, play rule - do I add an NPC who is played by me - or do I allow someone very young to play instead that NPC. My son was very keen to 'join the adults'. But as this was an evening session and would take 4 hours (we played well past midnight) I had concerns. In the end I allowed him to play Slash aka Valeros. I felt as GM this would still allow me to wrestle back the character as NPC during play with no real damage done. He did last the whole game (albeit very sleepy in the end) and was very proud next morning.
Off course - this also meant he was keen to 'play again'.
There are good and bad issues associated with young players:
The problems:
Lack of rules knowlege, focus on the game for extended hours, isruptive behaviour, trying out things that seem to make no sense
The good parts:
Often more roleplay as the adults, inventive ideas to situations (see also above – sometimes this just doesn’t work), they are the future of RPG
Adults around a table can help (or hinder) a lot. I’ve seen my son taking on disruptive behaviour from adults. Interestingly you seem to notice it a lot more when it’s done by someone young. At the same time – adults can help during the game by being a good example.
Teach them how to be a good roleplayer - and this includes not just the rules but also good behaviour at the table.
Having multiple children at the table makes it more difficult as they tend to reinforce themselves.
I felt I wanted to bring this up for discussion and exchange of concerns, experience, opinions around this topic. If this post should result in a future age limit for PFS games, then I have done something wrong. In my view, adult guidance (or lack thereoff) and ratio of young players to adults and in general the circumstances at the table are much more important as an absolute age of a player.
I'm open to admit that there are concerns bringing someone young to the table. One of my players voiced his displeasure to have played with my son at the last game. I take this into account to minimize tables where both are playing. At the same time - the same player told me that the last game was one of the best roleplay games in a long while at my table. So whatever my son did during the game can't have ruined it completely.
Opinions and experience welcome.
Thod
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Thod,
I have very limited (1 game) experience with young-ish children at last year's PaizoconUK.
I have to say it was a blast, but some things to bear in mind/suggest:
1) Talk to the GM. They're going to have to put more focus on the kid's character to make sure they're paying attention. Granted French Wolf focused on the druid by constantly threatening the plush wolf the player was carrying around, but it worked.
2) Make sure there's someone from their normal group in the game (parents are best) to provide help with the crunchy bits and take control if the kid causes a problem.
3) Tell other players. They'll have to be on good behaviour regarding swearing and adult topics, and to be prepared for some of the interesting things kids come up with as far as plans go, and some might prefer to go into a different group.
But it's definitely possible, and can be immensely fun for the jaded adult players.
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What ages are your son and daughter?
Does this matter for the discussion.
They are old enough to enjoy gaming. They have grown up in a gaming family - so might have an advantage. At the tender age of 4 or 5 (I can check out the exact age if that posting still exists) my son got his first praise from the Dwarvenforge inventor for some self made scenario/3D design (from Play Dough). That is several years ago.
At least two years ago he made his very first own money on E-Bay by selling some DwarvenForge compatible prison cells. We made a total of three with one going as far as Autralia and received positive feedback. Daddy did help him - as I wouldn't have allowed him to make a rubber mold or a resin cast on his own (safety). But a lot was his own work.
My son is young enough that I have concerns to bring them to a table that isn't my own. He is 2 1/2 years older than his sister which I haven't allowed yet at a PFS table - albeit she plays Lini the druid in the AP and I'm impressed by her choice of spells so far. The 5 year older friend tends to copy her choice.
I have to admit - to make it easier I generated spell cards for each allowed spell. She picks her spells out from a stack and not from the rule book.
I deliberately left out the age, as I didn't wanted to prejudice opinions. Depending how the discussion goes I might add the ages at a later stage.
Thod
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I haven’t had experience playing in groups including children at cons or in organised play, so I can’t really comment directly on your question. I have occasionally played in or GM’d for a group that includes a younger child (early teens) and his father. I didn’t strike any issues, though I did find myself toning down some of the themes I might have otherwise included in the adventures when I GM’d, and we (adults) all did make a conscious effort to watch our language and limit the ooc table talk (which was not really a bad thing).
I think the age of the children may well be a relevant factor. Sure, maturity level and understanding of and experience with the game count for a lot and are not necessarily directly related to age, but the (approximate) age of the child is the first thing that other players are likely to notice at the table, and an initial impression formed based on this. I understand that that initial impression (and the assumption on maturity levels etc) is very likely what you want to avoid here by not giving ages – but I think its a big factor (whether fairly or not). Some players are going to see a kid of x years at the table and think ‘they’re too young’ and that perception is likely to hold despite other factors, unfortunately.
I will say that I intend to let me son game with me in a couple of years if he is interested (he hass just turned 4 and seems interested at this stage), but I would be very disinclined to have him game at a con or organised play (with or without me) until he is in his teens.
EDIT: I'm not suggesting you need to give the ages, but I am suggesting that I think its a factor.
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Hi Throd.
I appreciate your concerns. I do not have children myself but the group that I GM have total of 7 children. Some of them are still babies, while others are approaching 10 years of age. We have had some of the Primary School age children play in our RotRL campaign.
The thing I would suggest to you to consider other people at the table. I have no problem with a child playing at the table in a home gamee. You then say play every two weeks, I personally could not play children every game.
At a CON, though my "CONNING" experience is limited, I have never seen children mix with open gaming tables. I would suggest that it has happened but it would have prepared prior or a mutual agreement of that table was made.
I think the age of the child is relevant, for me and for others who I have played with in a closed group or at an open group. Adults play with adult intentions and conversations. Without offence, you know your son and you feel he is mature enough to play. The unknown factor is the adults that you play with. Adults will, generally, play differently when children are present. Some adults do not like that condition interferring with their enjoyment. This is under standable as a vast majority of players at the Con are young adults or above.
Personally, when I am going to go and play at GenConOz I would not want to play with a child. Perhaps under the play play play rule and with a child with a father like yourself I would consider it. If I had a child, I would not be taking them to a CON to play RPG at the age of 7, even if they are capable. I would wait until they would be older.
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Thod,
I have very limited (1 game) experience with young-ish children at last year's PaizoconUK.I have to say it was a blast, but some things to bear in mind/suggest:
1) Talk to the GM. They're going to have to put more focus on the kid's character to make sure they're paying attention. Granted French Wolf focused on the druid by constantly threatening the plush wolf the player was carrying around, but it worked.2) Make sure there's someone from their normal group in the game (parents are best) to provide help with the crunchy bits and take control if the kid causes a problem.
3) Tell other players. They'll have to be on good behaviour regarding swearing and adult topics, and to be prepared for some of the interesting things kids come up with as far as plans go, and some might prefer to go into a different group.
But it's definitely possible, and can be immensely fun for the jaded adult players.
Paul
Thanks for the feedback. Maybe in the future I could bring them to PaizoCon. Right now I only booked for myself and my wife.
1) Yes - I already contacted Wintergreen as he is organizing to ensure the GM is informed. He knows the age and the GM and I'm not offended if he would have reservations.
2) I plan to play with him. So this is covered.
3) The swearing and adult topics is an interesting one. My son is mortified of the Doctor Who series - at the same time at the last game he told the adults that someone being hit shouldn't go down straight away as he heard that someone with a sewered head would still stand upright for 5 seconds. Kids these days ...
The main issue why I brought this up is, that going to a different group won't work for other players - there is only a single table that time right now.
2Everyone else - thanks for all the opinions. I will reply later today or tomorrow.
Thod
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I will say that I intend to let me son game with me in a couple of years if he is interested[snip]
EDIT: I'm not suggesting you need to give the ages, but I am suggesting that I think its a factor.
Mothman
Thanks for your thoughts. I fully agree - Age does play an important role and this is why I wanted to get some opinions here. At the same time - I didn't want it to be discussed as X is fine, Y is too young.
Good luck with playing with your son in a few years time. Actually - while it is way too early for some serious gaming you aren't far off when he can start to enjoy some bits.
My son wasn't much older when I used a d20 and some mock fights (use plastic minis - not painted ones ! - they like the physical experience to hit) to teach him numbers.
Here in the UK they start 1. September each year as long as they already turned 4 at that stage. using a d20 was a good way to teach him the numbers up to 20 and to give him a feel of numbers.
Roll higher than 12 to hit ...
More serious play will take a while longer as in my view they need at least to be able to add up on the fly themselves and also need to read fluently.
Thod
Edit - and later I used Pokemon on the DS for him to start reading on his own. I was spending hours next to him while he played and was reading aloud the text. With the school books he would stop being interested on page 2.
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Thod,
I have very limited (1 game) experience with young-ish children at last year's PaizoconUK.I have to say it was a blast, but some things to bear in mind/suggest:
1) Talk to the GM. They're going to have to put more focus on the kid's character to make sure they're paying attention. Granted French Wolf focused on the druid by constantly threatening the plush wolf the player was carrying around, but it worked.2) Make sure there's someone from their normal group in the game (parents are best) to provide help with the crunchy bits and take control if the kid causes a problem.
3) Tell other players. They'll have to be on good behaviour regarding swearing and adult topics, and to be prepared for some of the interesting things kids come up with as far as plans go, and some might prefer to go into a different group.
But it's definitely possible, and can be immensely fun for the jaded adult players.
Paul
Thanks for the feedback. Maybe in the future I could bring them to PaizoCon. Right now I only booked for myself and my wife.
1) Yes - I already contacted Wintergreen as he is organizing to ensure the GM is informed. He knows the age and the GM and I'm not offended if he would have reservations.
2) I plan to play with him. So this is covered.
3) The swearing and adult topics is an interesting one. My son is mortified of the Doctor Who series - at the same time at the last game he told the adults that someone being hit shouldn't go down straight away as he heard that someone with a sewered head would still stand upright for 5 seconds. Kids these days ...
The main issue why I brought this up is, that going to a different group won't work for other players - there is only a single table that time right now.2Everyone else - thanks for all the opinions. I will reply later today or tomorrow.
Thod
I would echo the previous poster's comment about being aware of how having the children at the table might affect other players.
I tend to think of PFS games as somewhere around PG14. You won't see a lot of explicit sexuality or other adult themes, but there is a lot of inference that can sometimes be drawn, and having children at the table can sometimes "cramp" the playing style of other players, and it is possible that their enjoyment of the adventure would be diminished.
I guess the question I would ask back at you is:
Do you feel that the presence of children at the table imposes a responsibility on the other players to moderate the actions of their characters in any way? (Is a "randy dwarf" still allowed to act in such a way? If so, if your child is playing a female character, how inappropriate would sexual innuendo between a "randy dwarf" and a "female halfling" be if your child was either one of those characters?)
There are three factors at play in bringing children to the table.
1) is the child mature enough to behave himself/herself for a 4 hour session and not grow tired and be a disruption to the table. I know there are players in their 20's through 70's who are not mature enough for this, but the supposition is that if you are bringing the children, you would be vouching for their behavior.
2) does the child understand the rules mechanics well enough and can the child plan what they are doing well enough so that the adventure does not spend an inordinate amount of game time waiting on the child to make their moves. (Again, I know their are players of "adult age" that don't fit this description, but you are not vouching for their abilities.)
3) will the presence of the child impose undue restrictions on the behavior of others at the table, thus limiting their enjoyment of the adventure? This would be a concern to me at Con events especially, since many of the participants would have traveled hundreds, if not thousands of miles in order to play at that particular table. For them to come away with a less fulfilling experience due to me bringing my child to the table, would be troubling for me. I'm not saying that everyone at the table should normally be allowed to be an obnoxious bastard, and nevermind who might be playing, but I know that adult themes are explored in the modules (just read the Cheliax faction goal slips), and to not allow the players to role-play in these situation would be off-putting.
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My tables often have young adults at them. When my step-son was 10 he tried a Living Greyhawk game and didn't have the attention span to pull it off. When he was almost 12 he tried Living Forgotten Realms and did admirably.
I also often play with a friend's son (the friend plays as well) who's now 15. We've been gaming with him since he was almost 13. The group he usually plays with is filled with some very solid players, but we often turn to him with rules issues because he knows the game better than any of us.
Over the course of the past two years playing with both of these people I've never heard anyone complain (though some grumbles did escape the one time we had an attention issue). As such, I'll say that as long as you can be assured they'll pay attention the whole time (or at least sit at the table and feign attention) then there shouldn't be any issue with them playing.
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Some interesting food for thought here from everyone. It's a tricky situation to be sure. I am a father of a 6 year old who is starting to show some curiosity in what I'm doing with minis and dice and battle mats. Where it ultimately goes is up to her interest, but I would of course love to encourage any interest in such a hobby. Having said that...
I believe the open call submission guidelines say something to the effect of 'PG-13 material.' This is a pretty straight forward guideline for me, under 13 means lots of direct (situational) parental involvement. This may be perfectly fine for your home run sessions. You know the other players involved (some of whom are in the same young age category), you can pre-screen the mods, and know if it's not going to work, or can be make to work with minor changes, or stands on it's own as 'no problem' etc.
In a non-home game however, you really are imposing your child into a situation where they (arguably) don't belong. This has implications all over the place on the GM and other players as far as their behaviors etc. You've done a good job handling things here, talking to the GM, asking other opinions etc, but ultimately you are inviting problems and imposing something on other players they didn't ask for. Even if the players initially feel the social guilt to agree they are 'ok' with this, what if they find they are not after a hour of play? There is a tricky line here about the fun of others at the expense of your behavior and vice versa.
I'm not sure that any player would be out of line to ask that a player under the age of 13 not be allowed at the table based on the submission guidelines for audience.
This is my initial gut reaction and again I applaud you for your interest and approach thus far!
I've started gaming with my son who is age six since the beginning of the year. He has a remarkable attention span, does well with the math in the game and such. I generally run him through short scenarios that involve four or five encounters, very similar to PFS scenarios - though we have not run one of those yet. He really enjoys the game and has a grasp of the basic mechanics.
At some point I would like to try a PFS module with him in a home game, just to see how well he does in a module. The advantage of a home game for this is that the other players can easily know what I have planned and that a younger kid will be playing. I can also tone down the parts that are a too much for a younger child. I also prefer to choose encounters that are not human on human conflict.
I would not take him to a convention game at this point, even if one of these home trials goes well. I feel like the convention goer has less choice about possibly ending up with a youth at the table. Some of them may be using this as a chance to unwind from their own kids and I can respect that. I also don't want to risk the PG-13 nature of certain modules to be an issue at a table either.
I think kids gaming is great, I know I started at a very young age as well. Just not sure I would want to tread into the convention waters with a younger child.
First I want to say that I do not know anyone who has posted here so far or any of their kids, so if any I say comes out as insulting, I will apologize now, but I do believe that age matters in general, especially in an Organized Play environment.
Anyway, either folks have a lot of kids that are mature beyond their years or folks do not care about the recommended starting age of 12-13 that D&D has always had. Personally, I started gaming at age 15 back in the early days of 1st Edition and everyone I gamed with back then was within a year of my age. Over the many years since then, I have gamed only a few times with children at the table, a couple of times at Cons and a few times with the children of girlfriends who were old enough to try and play. The ones at Cons did decently, the ones that were children of girlfriends not so much.
For PFS play, it comes down to whether you believe your child is mature enough to handle the PG-13 themes, has the attention span and focus for a time limit format, and can handle strategy and does not just want to charge into every situation swinging a sword at everything that moves. Beyond that, you cannot control how the other players or the GM will react to having a minor at the table, especially one that is not even a teenager yet. For me, I enjoy games that run between PG-13 and R for mood and character behavior, and would not be happy at all at being forced into a G-rated gaming session because of the unexpected presence of a child at the table. Knowing in advance is a whole other thing, of course, because I can then prepare for a toned down session, like when I have gamed with the children of girlfriends.
Maybe there should be some way to label certain tables at Cons or other organized Events as kid-friendly so that the other players will not be taken by surprise and get less enjoyment out of the game or not end up in the hypothetical situation someone earlier posted where an adult, or even older teen, is having "naughty" talk in character with your child's character. In the end, everyone at a table is supposed to have fun or the purpose of the PFS is not fulfilled, so if you have faith in your child's maturity and you believe they will not ruin the fun of other people at a table, then go for it.
Oh, and one last note in general and to no one in particular. Please check the rules for any convention to which you may take your children. Every one I have either been to or helped organize has a rule that children under a certain age, usually 12, are never to be allowed to run around on their own and must be with an adult family member at all times. So if there is an issue at a table involving your child and there is no adult family member present, you and your family could be asked to leave if whatever happened is severe enough to warrant that action.
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All
Thanks for this very good discussion. I really appreciate that this is a board where you are able to discuss even difficult issues.
As I heard quite a few distinctions between Home Game and Con I felt I ask a further question. Are there Cons that are more suitable for younger gamers and Cons that are less suitable. The Games Expo UK describes itself as Trade and Family show. As such you would expect more casual gamers. Does this make a difference?
Masika: how much older then 7 would you regard as acceptable?
Brother Elias – I really appreciate the points you make
1)being able to be concentrated for a whole game is critical. I wouldn't consider this if I would have concerns that this is the case.
2)He understands the rules well enough to be no hindrance. Also playing a fighter makes it easier.
3)This is the reason why I bring this up here. I want to get a feeling how people think about this issue. Undue restrictions in regard to behaviour is relative. What does this mean. Would you feel confident playing a randy dwarf if you have a 18 year old female playing Merisiel on the table. I don't know about the Cheliax missions – but he plays Andoran and they tend to be pretty unsexy.
Teribithia9 – You are welcome to my table any time.
Demoyn – thanks for sharing your experience
Zizazat, Iron Wolf – I had a look at the PG-13 rating and I'm not sure it is very useful in any way for RPG. Here is the definition from Wikipedia (I use the US rating)
PG-13 - Parents Strongly Cautioned - Some material may be inappropriate for children under 13. Films given this rating may contain sexual content, brief or partial nudity, some strong language and innuendo, humor, mature themes, political themes, terror and/or intense action violence .
The bold is my own. You would hope any scenario has some intense action violence included. As soon as you slaughter a single orc in a module you probably already reach PG-13. I don't think Paizo has any chance in hell to publish a fantasy scenario and give it a lower rating and not fearing to run the risk to be sued one day.
They surely don't want anything beyond PG-13 – but it's unclear to me they could make a Pathfinder scenario below PG-13 without taking out 100% of hack.
This leaves the issue with imposing my behaviour on other players at the table. And I see that this is an issue.
Iron Wolf – just out of curiosity – what age did you start. I must have started with 15 or 16 – translating the Basic D&D into German to allow my 4 years younger brother to play as well. Yes I'm old and this was before there was a single German Roleplay game available.
Enevhar Aldarion – I really like the idea to label a table 'kid-friendly'. If this would be the case, then I wouldn't need to post here and get proxy opinions. As I said in the beginning – this is a Trade and Family show and they do have a competition with boardgaming at the show for 8-12 year olds. I think you can even drop them off there and oick up later. Off course this still doesn't mean that a PFS gamer necessarily would expect someone in this age bracket to play at his table. But at least you shouldn't be surprised if someone young is at the table next to you.
Thanks for all the contributions
Thod
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Thod:
"3)This is the reason why I bring this up here. I want to get a feeling how people think about this issue. Undue restrictions in regard to behaviour is relative. What does this mean. Would you feel confident playing a randy dwarf if you have a 18 year old female playing Merisiel on the table. I don't know about the Cheliax missions – but he plays Andoran and they tend to be pretty unsexy. "
18? I'd probably have no problem in role-playing sexual innuendo between characters with an 18 year old at the table.
If the question is, how young would a player need to be for me to feel uncomfortable role-playing sexual inferences between characters around, then I start diving into murkier ground.
I think the number 13 serves as a good dividing line to where most adults would refrain from making innuendo in the presence of those younger, or where an adult would understand that all at the table were mature enough to be able to get into character with less risk of offense.
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Anyway, either folks have a lot of kids that are mature beyond their years or folks do not care about the recommended starting age of 12-13 that D&D has always had.
Enevhar
Where do you get the age from. I just checked the Basic D&D box as well as the Expert Set. It says:
The Original Fantasy Roleplaying Game
For 3 or more Adults
Ages 10 and up
Sorry - it doesn't help the discussion as I think it is irrelevant but I couldn't resist to post a correction.
I think this is from 1981. The German version has the same age recommendations. I couldn't find any age recommendations for 'Das Schwarze Auge' which was the first original German RPG.
I do agree that a later box for a different game (Midgard) does recommend 12 onwards. And I would regard Pathfinder as more complex - for a higher age - as Basic D&D. Haven't found an age recommendation on the cover and haven't searched inside yet.
Thod
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RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16
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My experience, in part, concurs with teribithia9's. Some of my very best role-playing, tactical decisions, and fun have come from kids at the table.
Some of the worst experiences, too. I would be stereotyping to suspect it comes from whether the kid has had his / her expectations about RPGs set by reading books, or by playing first-person shooter games. Sterotyped, but I'm developing that rule of thumb.
Two notes of advice:
(1) Try very hard not to have a time limit. Convention gaming in general is one thing; Organized Play is something else. Expect that even the brightest kid will be unfamiliar with some normal real-world references, make some "common sense" mistakes, and need patient guidance. If the party has 3.5 hours to get through 5 encounters, the other players may find their patience wearing thin as a 9-year-old tries to calculate the effects of four different buffs, feats, and situational modifiers.
(2) Have kids figure out the math first, then decide what they want to do, then roll. This does two things: it gives them an understanding that certain actions might be much harder or easier than they would otherwise guess, and it puts the brakes on impulsive behavior.
(I note, with regret, that there have been a couple of instances when I have stopped being a "fellow player" and slipped into "irritated teacher" mode. Didn't help anybody at the table have a good time.)
Zizazat, Iron Wolf – I had a look at the PG-13 rating and I'm not sure it is very useful in any way for RPG. Here is the definition from Wikipedia (I use the US rating)PG-13 - Parents Strongly Cautioned - Some material may be inappropriate for children under 13. Films given this rating may contain sexual content, brief or partial nudity, some strong language and innuendo, humor, mature themes, political themes, terror and/or intense action violence .
You would hope any scenario has some intense action violence included. As soon as you slaughter a single orc in a module you probably already reach PG-13. I don't think Paizo has any chance in hell to publish a fantasy scenario and give it a lower rating and not fearing to run the risk to be sued one day.
They surely don't want anything beyond PG-13 – but it's unclear to me they could make a Pathfinder scenario below PG-13 without taking out 100% of hack.
For me to say the PG-13 rating of modules is more to reference the part that says "some material may be inappropriate for children under 13". From the violence stand point, hereoes going after monsters strikes me as easier to establish a clear line between make-believe/fantasy than say heroes versus an evil cult comprised of humans.
Then there is the possibility of a mature theme, maybe something such as torture or something along that lines that I might not find appropriate for a young child. Keep in mind, I have my six year old in the back of my mind, some of the things I have mentioned would likely be less of an issue for an older kid, say someone older than ten.
I certainly wouldn't ask Paizo to tone anything down, I think the modules are written just fine for their intended audience. So I fully realize as a parent it is my responsibility to determine whether the content of their modules is appropriate for my son.
Which is likely why I would avoid a convention game for my son as I have less control over screening the content for my son than I would at a home game. Now of course if there was a "kids" table where it was made up of three parents and their kids, this might change my thoughts on convention play for a younger player.
Iron Wolf – just out of curiosity – what age did you start. I must have started with 15 or 16 – translating the Basic D&D into German to allow my 4 years younger brother to play as well. Yes I'm old and this was before there was a single German Roleplay game available.
I started playing when I was ten-ish with the Moldvay Basic D&D set.
Anyway, either folks have a lot of kids that are mature beyond their years or folks do not care about the recommended starting age of 12-13 that D&D has always had.Enevhar
Where do you get the age from. I just checked the Basic D&D box as well as the Expert Set. It says:
The Original Fantasy Roleplaying Game
For 3 or more Adults
Ages 10 and upSorry - it doesn't help the discussion as I think it is irrelevant but I couldn't resist to post a correction.
I think this is from 1981. The German version has the same age recommendations. I couldn't find any age recommendations for 'Das Schwarze Auge' which was the first original German RPG.
I do agree that a later box for a different game (Midgard) does recommend 12 onwards. And I would regard Pathfinder as more complex - for a higher age - as Basic D&D. Haven't found an age recommendation on the cover and haven't searched inside yet.
Thod
Since this is dealing with age, it is only a bit of a side track, but anyway, the old boxed sets specifically gave an age range because they were marketed as more of a starter route for younger players to learn the game and then graduate to AD&D when they were older. I went back and looked at the 1st Ed books I have and I did not see a specific starting age listed, though I thought there was, but it does say on page 7: "The game is ideally for three or more adult players." Also, as I saw mentioned in a thread on another site, the boxed sets had an age printed on them more because of federal regulations regarding the choking hazard of the included dice than it being the recommended starting age to play D&D.
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I have a daughter who is 8 who has a friend who is 9. They both just played a PFS scenario for the first time on Sunday. Had a couple of regulars, one high school senior, an older brother to my daughters friend, and one adult, play with them. They both had a great time. And as soon as we were done, they were asking when we would be playing again. My daughter has been watching me play since she was born, and has always enjoyed sitting on my lap and rolling dice for me. One of the requirements I gave them was that they had to be able to read the Pathfinder Core Rulebook and had to read the race and class that they were playing. When we played I would ask them what they wanted to do, and then we would go over what they needed to do to accomplish that task, whether it was swinging a sword, casting a spell, or jumping from ship to ship, including what dice they needed to roll and what modifiers were added to the roll. My goal is that by taking this method and playing at home with friends who can help guide, they will quickly learn what the rules are concerning different actions.
As of right now, I wouldn't take them to a big convention, but maybe a small local one where I would know most of the gamers and would be comfortable with my daughter playing with them and vice-versa. Almost all of the adults I play with either have children who currently game or hope to game. I think if they had a strong grasp of what their character can do, I wouldn't have a problem with them going to a larger convention. My bigger concern would be the language and tone of the discussion or scenario. While at home, I can more easily pick and choose which scenarios they play and if I'm GM'ing them can change the tone when needed.
I do hope that I will be able to take her to a convention soon. I will be one proud dad when that day happens. Being able to participate in an activity together that I've enjoyed for years. A lot like taking my son to his first professional baseball game.
Very interesting discussion. I have 5 kids, ages 7 to 15. The oldest four play RP with me and a couple of additional adult friends. My adult friends were aware, from the beginning, that my kids were playing. In fact, the sessions started with kids only and the adults joined because they enjoyed playing. A significant portion of my enjoyment of the game is watching my buddies react to my kids during the session. Another twist, one of my adult friends serves as "assistant DM" He RP major NPC and help herd sheep. It is pretty fun that way. Especially since I am rather new at GMing.
The age of the kid matters, but the personality matters as well. Two of my kids get pretty emotional if things are not going well. I have to resist the urge to go easy on them. I feel perfect freedom to allow them to swap character details around or even take a whole new character of the same level at the drop of a hat while they are getting used to the game. I wouldn't take any of my younger kids to a convention. They would not have the attention span for that experience.
My oldest is fifteen. He would do fine with other adults at a convention. A PFS might be enjoyable for him.
Wouldn't it be interesting if Paizo held a kids only gaming session? I bet that would be fun. Educational too for the adults who observed.
Another advantage of having kids play. I feel perfectly free to stop the game session and teach the kids how to roleplay. If they want to use their bardic skills to negotiate, I make them at least attempt to come up with some dialogue to accompany that request. Maybe it's just me, but would be more reluctant to "instruct" and adult in the art of RP. What do you all think?
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Kids are the future of the gaming industry so we need to make an effort to bring them along at the right times. My daughters, 9 and 11, both play PFS at home with a few other friends and relatives. With a kids only table, we break the PFS scenario into two nights because their attention span is shorter. My 9 year old does fine at home but would not do well in a convention setting. My 11 year old has gamed with us at the local shop 5 times now. She does alright and it has helped her break out of her shell. She plays Andoran and really gets into the faction missions. The other players are helpful to her, but I wouldn't want to bring her everytime, I think that may be too much for them. By the time she is 13-14, she will be ready to play on her own at a different table, but for now she hangs out with Dad. Her older sister, now 21, played since she was 14 and GMed sessions when she was 17.
We have been talking about running some kid PFS games at the shop on a Saturday, not that we wouldn't let an adult play, but I am sure they would pick the older table. A shorter simple scenario would be best.
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Hi there again. It is great to read this discussion.
One point to make is that I think the themes of the thread has shifted a little. I am sure that proud parents and gifted children could master the art of playing PFS in the right condition. The issue that I think is perhaps overshadowed is that of age - child playing with adults, particularly in a open event such as a CON.
I believe the right age to is in the early teens - a case by case situation. Though, I would play with them and I would be selective of the table make up if I could, that is play with people I knew. There is a very strong element of adult themes in PFS. Not just violence but issues such as torture, sex and slavery. Concepts young adults need to be educated about but could be confusing as adults think of and treat these concepts more abstractly.
I hope to have children with my love wife. I see my mates with children and how they are playing the "geek games" (as my wife describes board games and the like). In relation to CONs and game stores, I would think young children to start them off in events such as boardgames and CCG/TCGs where they can socialise with other similarly young children and mix with older players. When they get older and develop more mentally and social via experience as opposed to potential/giftedness.
I have no problem with younger child playing PFS, in a control setting but as the OP wanted to ask in a CON it is not necessary appropriate as adult players would possibilly be expecting to play with other adults.
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I made a decision
Thanks for all the feedback given here at the board. As slots started to fill up suddenly and as I had already lost an evening slot for my wife while contemplating what to do, I've now registered myself and my son for one slot.
I haven't made the decision easily. Some will probably regard the decision as wrong. For the interested - my son is 9 1/2 years old. My daughter is 7 and she won't play. Here are my reasons
First - while I was in contact with the organizer, I felt I shouldn't leave it up to him. After all - it is my son and therefore I will have to make a decision on him. Some suggestions for organizers in the future will follow at the end.
I heard the concerns around rule knowledge and slowing down play. He plays a simple fighter based on the Pregen Valeros. He is cappable to play that character and make his own decisions. I don't expect or want that the GM goes soft on him. He learnt in his second game that his character can go down. Yes - I will have some extra healing potions with my own character - but I will use them on other players as well if they are down.
He is cappable to play a full 4 hour slot (it will be Sunday morning slot - not an evening slot) and he is less disruptive as the average adult member in my home group.
As I'm playing with him, I'm not concerned about his interaction with adults or the contents he will be exposed to. I haven't seen much yet in Pathfinder scenarios that I have issues with. After all - I will be supervising him and can correct any impact. There are other areas in life I'm more concerned about exposure - like when he borrows my iPhone to watch YouTube and I'm not sitting all the time next to him. While starting with suitable material (Lego Starwars, Pokemon, Mario) - unsuitable material might be only a click away.
This leaves one area I can't control - how will the other players react. I can't tell ahead of time - and in the worst case I will have to leave with my son.
And I think the last point is the crucial one. Having read a lot of the comments I'm convinced it is wrong to ban young people from a table - provided they are cappable of playing. There are enough players willing or even interested to play with them. At the same time - it is wrong to impose yourself with a young person on a table. Players should have a choice.
Someone mentioned here that tables should be labbeled as kids-friendly or not. When I booked PaizoCon (only for myself and my wife) I was also looking for a show I could go with the kids. I tend to go to Spiel in Essen each year - but I was looking for something more local. The Games Expo in Birmingham is labeled as a Trade and Family show and seemed to fit the bill. There is a total of 6 slots with at least 10 PFS tables total. When you book you are presented with a minimum age that is expected for the table. Unfortunately for PFS games it is -- for all tables. To be fair - this age feature seems not to be used a lot at all.
I don't want to criticize Dave as organizer here. He has done a great job to get that many GMs, organize everything, GMing himself etc. And then comes along a father like me and causes him issues. But looking at feedback here I get the feeling that I'm not completely on my own. It might be too late for this year (unless an additional kids friendly table would be organized) but for 2011 - would it be possible to label 2 tables as kids friendly and for all the other tables to set a minimum age. Adult players shouldn't be banned from such tables - but they could make an informed choice. And I would be sure to take care to come back in 2012 and would be willing even to GM on such a table.
And if this posting would help that similar tables would be labeled at other CONs or shows with family participation then it would have served it's purpose. This would allow the parents to make the decision without risk to offend players, GMs or organizers. And while a lot of CONs won't have any such tables - it would be sufficient to have a few where it would be known and accepted that you could bring your children.
You don't have to agree with my decision and I'm aware several posters will regard the decision as wrong. But I hope people here will be able to respect it. And maybe in the future there might be a more proactive approach towards children in Pathfinder. After all - they are our future - and I hope to see more proud fathers/mothers with their children at a gaming table. Maybe one day I'm even your GM.
Thod
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Regional Venture-Coordinator, Mediterranean
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An interesting discussion that certainly needs to be had by any convention organiser IMHO. There has been a similar discussion about this and the UK Games Expo on the UK roleplayers forum. As Thod has noted, UK Games Expo bills itself as a family show. Given that, as the organiser of the Pathfinder Society games for the event I have been happy to accept that there may be some young players coming to the tables but I will discuss with the other GMs to see if they are happy about running a game with younger players.
When it comes to PaizoCon UK, last year we did have a few teenage players who were there with their parents and I had been made aware of them when they booked and organised the tables accordingly to ensure a parent was playing alongside them.
PaizoCon UK is a much smaller affair than UK Games Expo so GMs and players have more chance to know each other. It is also more focused on Pathfinder Society so may be less appealing a convention for younger players.
As the organiser I have made a decision that if a parent confirms that a young player is capable of being a player at a con then we'll accept that. If other players find it uncomfortable then we will re-arrange the tables. Though I don't think that it would be appropriate to have players below the age of 10 or unaccompanied.
Thanks for all the feedback given here at the board. As slots started to fill up suddenly and as I had already lost an evening slot for my wife while contemplating what to do, I've now registered myself and my son for one slot.
I think you've given it a lot of thought and I hope all goes well for you at the convention. I hope you'll report back after the Con so we can hear how things went.
I've enjoyed running games for kids in the past, but pathfinder presents some special difficulties:
Slaves: no way, no how are kids at my tables going to be getting off on this stuff. Mature themes like these could probably be left where they belong: out of the game.
Most of the Pathfinders are Kill People & Take Their Stuff. We're way off course in regards to creative thinking with most scenarios (IMHO). A DM has to keep this in mind and maybe encourage a different kind of thinking.
In regards to game play, the only problems I've ever had with (3.5) play was that some adults feel that the rules take precedence to fun. Playing with autistic rules-lawyers-type-players is a quick way to spoil the fun for any child.
With all that, what's the general consensus regaring "minimum age?"
jh
With all that, what's the general consensus regarding "minimum age?"
I think I and a couple of others have mentioned the general PG-13 nature of a lot of gaming, so, without getting into maturity level, I would say a general starting age of 13 for organized events and cons. If there are tables labeled as "kid-friendly", then I would say for those games a starting age of 9 or 10, and anyone in their teens or older would know in advance what to expect and to not play beyond a PG level with their character.
The big problem, both in gaming and in so many other areas of life, is maturity. I am sure many of you posting here have known people in their 20's or even 30's who behave and/or game less maturely than some 10-12 year old kids.
Owner - Enchanted Grounds, President/Owner - Enchanted Grounds
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I am sure many of you posting here have known people in their 20's or even 30's who behave and/or game less maturely than some 10-12 year old kids.
Yep.
I, for one, have no concern over the age of the player. I started playing when I was 8 (and I'm sure a lot of you did, as well). I am far more concerned about the "maturity." And please note that the word is in quotes. If a 9 year old kid is capable of sitting at the table with us and contributing, be it because he's a gaming savant or because he merely understands that busting out the personal game system while playing with us is inappropriate, then I have no problems with him. I have shared the table with many a 20+ year old who had absolutetly no clue just how immature he/she was, and those experiences have been far more disruptive to my fun than the few times I've shared a table with a pre-teen.
Otherwise, Thod, you're going to be fine. We're all a bunch of non-confrontational, anti-social, isolationist bookworms who immerse ourselves in a fantasy world in an effort to compensate. Do you really think someone at your table is going to have the gall to tell you to take your kid and shove off?
And, as much as I'm kidding about the anti-social stuff, I'm not really kidding about the confrontational part. The guy who does confront you about your child without giving him or you a chance to show what you're like as players is far less mature than your son will ever be...
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As a father there comes the proud moment when your son/daughter is able to play the first PFS scenario. Or - to go a step further - the first time you take them to a convention. At the same time you are acutely aware that not everyone likes to have someone young at the table.
Having GMed the first three scenarios for my son and contemplating on a CON (Games Expo UK) to play one scenario together with him I thought I gather some feedback here. I will GM one slot and my wife already looks after the kids for that time - also she will play the evening slots. This would be my only change to play myself. I deliberately stripped off the age in this post - as I don't think a fixed age is helpful in this respect.
Fwiw, my kids all started playing when they were 4. Obviously, they got a lot of help at that tender age, and up to about 10 I was careful who they went on tables with (yes, they started playing at cons at 4). Now, two of them GM and the third helps me GM (she's 11 going on 30).
Hope this helps.|
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All
Here is the report back. Games Expo in Birmingham was a really great family friendly show that I can recommend. You could try out D&D 4.0 with D&D being the Gold sponsor. Advertising was from 6 years onwards for a drop in game (45 minutes). My wife tried it out with my daughter. While she is in no danger to change system (to put it midly) it is nice to see something like this offered.
But back to PFS. I think there was a total of 10 tables. As far as I can tell, there where two of these with children at the table. At the Saturday afternoon I was GMing the only PFS slot.
Playing Voices in the Void we had a total of 7 players on the table. A family of 5 with three younger boys (10, 14 and 15) as well as two of the GMs getting in the only play time.
We played Voices in the Void. We only had 4 hours max. with a 15 minutes late start. I had build up most of the dungeon ahead of time using some Dwarvenforge Realm of the Ancient sets. Someone in the party was clever enough to ask for a map - so there was not much giveaway with me filling up the interior of the room as the game unfolded.
Age was no issue at the table. I didn't go easy on the youngest as he stormed ahead in the first encounter (dwarven Paladin, combat oriented) and was greated with 2 claws and a bite. It didn't knock him out in the first combat round We had a cleric with us - so I felt worst case some of healing will be spend in the first encounter. He had a lot more respect from big monsters throughout the reminder of the game. In total I got three characters down at some stage.
Everyone enjoyed it and there wasn't any issue with age at the table. More difficult was the large number of players, the nearly sauna like conditions in the room and the limited time.
In the second game Wintergreen was the GM and once again it was a table of seven. Thankfully this time it was a floor down and the air was A LOT more comfortable. The game was Deliriums Tangle. My son managed the first kill of the day (nice shot with his Composite Longbow of Str+3). Later on he was guiding the group with a string of decent Survival rolls.
Thinking back - only my character went down - and his Eidolan as well.
I don't think at any time of the game there was an issue with my son playing. He probably needed less help as one of the adults playing her second game. And contary to comments - I didn't tell him to pour a healing potion into my summoner. That was his idea alone. I was waiting for the cleric or one of the adults to act and help me. WHERE have you all been? I was there - lying on the floor, dying (yes - I was at -1 HP) and he was the only one helping ;)
Joking aside - it was a great time. We both enjoyed it. And while I wouldn't take him to any convention (actually rather a few right now I would feel comfortable) - I'm glad he was allowed to play.
We will be back next year. Maybe if he is more experience he could even have two games - one when I GM, one together with me or my wife.
Just one more bit - slavery in PFS came up at some stage. This actually triggered me to have a conversation with my son.
Q: Do slavery exist in the Edge Chronicles
A: Yes - why do you ask
Q: Can you tell me a little bit more
A: It's not legal in Undertown. You can get offered some food if you are poor. And then you get drugged, fall asleep and are sold as a slave.
The source isn't Golarion - the Edge Chronicles are 'Free Reading' he and his friends pick up in primary school. It is a fantasy world that specifically is written for children. You have to be old enough to read through a 300 page paperback. I just assume slavery is just something common and used for versimilitude in most fantasy settings and at least in Europe there seems less of an issue with it. But thanks for bringing it up here. I wouldn't have had the conversation othervice.
Thod
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Glad to hear you had a good time. When I was playing living Greyhawk back in the day our gm (mostly played mods ran from home)asked us one day if we would mind his eight year old play. This kid often hung around he table while we played. It was obvious he had grown up around gaming, and was very well behaved. We all said no worries, and next session he ended up saving the day because without him we would have had to scrap the day when a couple of folks failed to show. There were three of us that pretty much were always there our characters actually ended up knowing each other very well. Others would jump in and out. The gm's son became our fourth regular although his dad had a standing rule that if he had to give up his spot if someone else wanted a spot and would fill the table. Something a few of us felt wasn't really fair to the kid, but dad is dad. I played a dwarf ranger that went two weapon. gm's son brought in an elven ranger that was archery based. Some of my favorite memories of those days are the great roleplay we had debating styles and tracking and dwarves and elves of course. Good stuff. We also loved to discuss which was a more vile foe orcs or goblins our favored enemies respectfully. I think some people are missing out by discounting young gamers out of hand. at eight he was a very character orientated player, and he knew what his character could and couldn't do better than many adult gamers I have played with. I know his dad was glad we were not worried about his son playing the game we all love with us, but he had also known gamers who simply refused to sit at a table with anyone under fourteen. Here is to the future of gaming, and remember kids "Bree-Yark" is Kobald for Howdy :D
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As a father there comes the proud moment when your son/daughter is able to play the first PFS scenario. Or - to go a step further - the first time you take them to a convention. At the same time you are acutely aware that not everyone likes to have someone young at the table.
Having GMed the first three scenarios for my son and contemplating on a CON (Games Expo UK) to play one scenario together with him I thought I gather some feedback here. I will GM one slot and my wife already looks after the kids for that time - also she will play the evening slots. This would be my only change to play myself. I deliberately stripped off the age in this post - as I don't think a fixed age is helpful in this respect.Fwiw, my kids all started playing when they were 4. Obviously, they got a lot of help at that tender age, and up to about 10 I was careful who they went on tables with (yes, they started playing at cons at 4). Now, two of them GM and the third helps me GM (she's 11 going on 30).
Hope this helps.
The 11 year old is seriously one of my favorite kids... and I'm not a kid person lol ...
I play with an 8 year old at my home OP weekly game.. there are times where she needs help, times when she's a little slower, and times where her attention wains a lot, but then there are times where I need help, when I'm a little slower and when my attention waivers (we won't mention the night of dmng, wine and cats lol).
I've had good experiences with adults and children and not so great experiences with adults and children. I guess for me I don't really distinguish between the two .. they are either good players, or perhaps they need a bit more work..
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yeah, so I GM'd a game at a convention 'Game Day' recently. I had a 14 year old kid who tracked initiative and helped 1st time players create their characters and a 65 year old man who rules lawyered me to death, on a game revolving around slavery. Guess who I want back at my table? I want to go cheesy with a "The children are our future" post but I just can't yet.
/too soon
// a boy became a man that night
/// +1 to the slashies
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All
I thought I give a small update since it's a few weeks ago now and in regard to 'The children are our future' remark above.
All in all I received here very good feedback. I hope it takes away some fears of other parents and hopefully some players will have an open mind and just try it out. Children sometimes have a different style - and different doesn't mean bad.
Soon after the Con my son started to be our 'home GM'. He is taking all my props - builds up a scenario - gathers all the monsters - makes notes about them - HP, AC, items they posess - sometimes a whole A4 page long - and then we play.
He insists on the GM screen - and we need to have character sheets. It doesn't matter that all we need to fill out is AC and HP. Everything else is dealt with while we are playing.
He is generating his own props - drawing animals we can find and befriend to become our companions. He allows upgrading of weapons (you can engrave them for some money to make them stronger), you can train your animals tricks, he comes up with modifiers on the spot.
No - we are not talking Pathfinder here - this is his very own RolePlay Game. As his player I recognize all the basic concepts and could give them the 'proper' names or the 'proper' modifier. But it is his game - and he tends to be close to what the Pathfinder rule would say. It is great to see he has a good feel for chance, proportions and numbers
And if he doesn't know what the proper dice is to roll - then he asks his daddy.
He hasn't played another PFS game since - and I do feel a little bit guilty about that. But he would have been too young for PaizoCon UK. Don't get me wrong - he would have been fine to game at a table - but one game a day would have been enough. And he also isn't old enough to play into the night.
And all in all - I want to keep him interested for years to come. So far he is great in GMing - having a good feel to make up a story and to guide his players. The rules knowledge will come with age.
Maybe on day you will see here a post and I will tell the story of his first PFS game as a GM. I will take a while - but he seems to enjoy it right now and hope to keep it going.
Thod
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Hi
Thod - I think I remember your 'Clan' at Expo in Birmingham. (I'm the balding fella with the walking stick, played Sorc/Paladin). Thouroughly enjoyed the game. (Except for the heat)!
Gaming with younger players was a blast. Younger minds tend to be more open to the 'wonder' of the Fantasy in FRP. Also nice to see them improve their maths & problem solving skills.
As a side note - (think) I remember an entire table of children playing PFS at Conception - their dad was GM.
Personally, I think that some of the scenarios need to be 'vetted' by parents for the 'maturity' rating. That goes double for some of the Chelaix Factions & Rewards!
Thanks
Paul H
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Kids are great for Pathfinder Society, and I actually think the direct nature of the PFS modules helps keep things on track and teaches them the basics of the game. My boys (10 and 6) both play, and are doing great. I do have a concern about which mods might have more adult content in them, and which need to be modified or steered away from. I've had the boys at several cons, and this year I expect both of them to be able to play (though the youngest I will keep at my side, b/c he'll need the help and direction, and I do want to be able to pull him if the group is uncomfortable). The trick like anything is to be aware of the other players. Just like you don't want to behave like a jerk at the table, or dread that socially inept player, you have to make sure your kids aren't being 'that guy' or 'that chick' as well. But, you only learn how to be by being. Most of us that are life-long gamers (I started at 7 years of age w/ the basic box set, graduating to AD&D shortly afterwards) that have kids have the advantage that our kids have seen and been around gaming all of their lives, so they get it, and have had us to model behavior. For kids just starting out without any context, it may be harder to make that transition.
I have also started running games for young players at the cons I attend, and I always have my kids with me for those specific games. It's a blast, and it helps teach younger players how to play, and how to be at the table, so they can join the 'big kids' as soon as they are ready and mature enough to hold their own.
That being said, some folks just aren't comfortable around kids, and you have to respect that. They paid for the con just like you, and are expecting a certain experience. In most cases, however, I have found gamers to be quite accepting of younger players, since we've all 'been there'.
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Just wanted to say I've run a couple games with youngsters (7-12 or so) without much trouble. One at Paizocon '09 was quite fun (Shea Ohmsford I believe). In one other case, the only problem I had was with the parent yelling at the kid unnecessarily (this was a home game).
So bring your kids if they're ready (but don't push them into it).
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Do you feel that the presence of children at the table imposes a responsibility on the other players to moderate the actions of their characters in any way? (Is a "randy dwarf" still allowed to act in such a way? If so, if your child is playing a female character, how inappropriate would sexual innuendo between a "randy dwarf" and a "female halfling" be if your child was either one of those characters?)
I feel this is an extremely germane point.
I was playing in a friend's campaign once. He owns his own game store, and so was running the game there with some folks who frequent his store. His business partner's 15 year old daughter chose to play in that campaign. One of the other player's (a 30-something husband and father of two youngins), who was apparently a randy ranger, made the table very uncomfortable for me as he made rather obvious comments toward the girl's character. I know it was roleplaying... but...
and I'm not a prude... but I think you have to consider EVERYONE at the table and how they might feel about this kind of interaction, and not just whether it is appropriate, the child can handle it, or whatever...
I for one would be incredibly uncomfortable if a graybeard was having his character sauce out innuendo to a 12 year old girl's character. Not appropriate in my book.
That being said, I'm not sure a mature adult should feel their creativity is being boxed or stymied simply because a child is at the table. After all, they are the adult, and it is up to them to be appropriate for a child and to help the child have a fun experience. I don't think a child should not be set at a table because an adult might feel their style is crimped because they can't be a bit blue. They should just be the adult and choose to be appropriate for the age bracket at the table.
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I played D&D as a a young kid, I offer encouragement to any parent that offers the gift of gaming. Some of the math and reading will help them out. As far as age goes, I guess it is up to the parent if they think their child can handle it. As far as PG-13 material I can't seem to think of any PFS mods that I would worry about. I also don't have children, I always think of children of small statured Ender's. Small adults for those who havent read Ender's Game. Last couple times I played with younger players it was a blast.
My only problems with children at the table are things that are just attributable to being a child, getting fidgety outside of combat, lack of interest in the task at hand, etc.
But hey, you know, these are no different then the adults I've had to tell to put the cell phone away, so play on as long as they're capable of handling it. Glad to hear that things worked out well for you.
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Seems this thread got revived.
One year later and my son now reached level 4 with his fighter.
The biggest problem in this year was rather adults disliking having a kid at the table as behaviour of my son. If you expect a child to behave perfectly because he is allowed at the table - but at the same time all adults around don't act like perfect rolemodels themselves - then they will pick that up and it will be a non-ideal situation.
And if someone thinks I force this on a player - I try my best not to. But in my own house, at my own table and with me as GM and father I feel entiteled to give my son the occasional right to play even if one player dislikes it.
As it seems planning for Games Expo 2011 has started and a call to GMs has gone out this is a good time to contact the organizer. This year should be a lot easier - more tables are planned. Pathfinder should have a room of their own.
So maybe we have one or two tables labeled as kids friendly during the day. This should allow to give adults a choice. If they dislike to play with kids, then they have a choice. If they feel kids are our future and like to play with kids - they have a choice as well.
Thod
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My daughter (14) sometimes plays in our group, and things work well. Yes, other players sometimes feel the need to moderate their language, but shouldn't they do that anyway? Plus, she has already heard any blue language I know.
There is sometimes teasing around the table, but she understands that "if you sit at the big kid table, you deal with the big kids."