What do you want to do/focus on as the Alchemist? Do you want to throw lots of things? Brew a lot of potions? Use a lot of poison? Be Dr. Jekyll/Mr. Hyde? It really depends on what aspect you want to focus on. My favorite (and the 1 I'm playing now) is the thrower mixed with the poison master but that's just me.
Good points. My current favorite build is a Dr. Jekyll/Mr. Hyde build with a reach weapon. It's a multi-class barbarian build that combines rage, mutagen, and enlarge person.
Here's a current antagonist in one of my games where I've toyed with the concept:
Horus Gravesmasher CR 5
XP 1600
Hobgoblin alchemist 4/barbarian 2
LE Medium humanoid (goblinoid)
Init +2; Senses darkvision 60 ft.; Perception +8
DEFENSE
AC 21, touch 12, flat-footed 19 (+7 armor, +2 Dex, +2 shield)
hp 51 (4d8+2d12+14)
Fort +9, Ref +6, Will +0, +2 vs. poison
SQ Guarded Stance, Uncanny Dodge
OFFENSE
Speed 40 ft.
Melee mwk glaive +7 (1d10+3/x3)
Ranged javelin +7 (1d6+2)
Alchemist Extracts Prepared (CL 4th)
2nd – Invisibility, See Invisibility
1st – Enlarge Person, Expeditious Retreat, Shield, True Strike
Alchemist Mutagen
Strength Mutagen
Alchemist Bomb (+8, 7/day, 3d6+3, explosive, DC 15)
SQ Rage 14 rounds/day, Extend Potion 3/day, Poison Use
STATISTICS
Str 15, Dex 14, Con 14, Int 16, Wis 9, Cha 12
Base Atk +5; CMB +7; CMD 19
Feats Cleave, Extra Rage, Power Attack, Throw Anything, Brew Potion
Skills Acrobatics +1, Climb +1, Craft (alchemy) +16, Disable Device +7, Escape Artist +1, Fly +1, Handle Animal +10, Intimidate +8, Knowledge (arcana) +9, Knowledge (engineering) +7, Knowledge (nature) +9, Perception +8, Ride +7, Spellcraft +8, Stealth +5, Swim +1
SQ Swift Alchemy
Gear +1 mithral breastplate, +1 buckler, masterwork glaive, 3 javelin
Languages Common, Goblin, Orc, Giant, Dwarven
Formulae Known Cure Light Wounds, Disguise Self, Enlarge Person, Expeditious Retreat, Invisibility, See Invisibility, Shield, True Strike
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What do you want to do/focus on as the Alchemist? Do you want to throw lots of things? Brew a lot of potions? Use a lot of poison? Be Dr. Jekyll/Mr. Hyde? It really depends on what aspect you want to focus on. My favorite (and the 1 I'm playing now) is the thrower mixed with the poison master but that's just me.
I am just wondering what the most effective would be. Would not want to just be a master brewer. The jekyll/hyde thing seems good but how much does it actually increase your effectiveness? I would guess a bomb thrower would be the best option for a primary focus.
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I hadn't thought about a Barbarian/Alchemist but that would make a really good Dr. Jekyll/Mr. Hyde build consider that idea snatched for an NPC in my game :P As far as a thrower build here's my Alchemist with a 20 point buy.
Human Alchemist - Jalleta Gitan
Str: 13
Dex: 16
Con: 12
Int: 16 (14+2)
Wis: 10
Cha: 10
1: Point Blank Shot (1st level feat), Precise Shot (human feat), Brew Potion (Alchemist bonus feat), Throw Anything (Alchemist bonus feat)
2: Precise Bombs (Discovery)
3: Quick Draw (3rd level feat)
4: Explosive Bomb (Discovery)
5: Two-Weapon Fighting (5th level feat)
6: Sticky Poison (Discovery, comes in handy when you get into melee, especially since you can poison a weapon as a swift action)
7: Far Shot (7th level feat)
8: Fast Bombs (Discovery, make sure to ask your DM if he'll let you throw a bomb as part of a full attack with other thrown weapons when you take this, my DM ok'd it but I know some don't)
9: Rapid Shot or Deadly Aim (9th level feat)
10: Sticky Bomb (Discovery)
Skills: Acrobatics (I took a trait to make this a class skill), Appraise, Craft (Alchemy), Disable Device, mix ranks between the 2 Knowledge skills you have putting 1 in each every other level, Perception, Sleight of Hand, Spellcraft
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If you don't want to be a master brewer and want to focus on combat, there's either the martial route which focuses on mutagens, or the ranged blaster route which focuses on the bombs.
I've only really tried the bomb thrower. Dexterity and intelligence are obviously your most important stats for one of those. Precise bombs and fast bombs are the most important discoveries, and for feats you should consider going for Point Blank Shot to begin with, and weapon focus (bomb) somewhere along the way (I also seem to remember seeing a splash weapon mastery feat on the SRD, so if you can use that that's a good option to. Use the mutagen to beef up your dexterity and bomb away!
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I'm going to be trying out a self-buffing melee Alchemist, using a Changeling Spear (can become a shortspear, spear, or longspear at will once per round. Magic Item Compendium) and enlarge person, plus fiddling around with poisons, and maybe stink bombs. Sticky Poison + reach weapons + combat reflexes = win. Consider that when enlarged, a reach weapon will give you 20ft reach, and the changeling spear that I will have will allow me to switch back to close range when needed. Bombs will be stink bombs because a 1 round stinking cloud can be amazingly useful, since nauseated is a very debilitating debuff. Even if it is only 1d4+1 rounds, anyone that fails their save cannot do anything to your party for at least 2 rounds. Also, it cleans up the problem with normal stinking cloud, namely the party would have had to avoid the cloud for the whole battle, but with the 1-round duration it only nauseates the people you get in the radius the first round
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Durandegan
Dwarf
Alchemist 2/Barbarian 1
( 20 pt buy )
Str 16
Dex 14
Con 16
Int 14
Wis 11
Chr 05
Discoveries:
-Feral Mutagen
Rage: 13 rounds/day
Feats:
Power Attack
Extra Rage
BAB +2
Normal : PA
-Great Axe +5/1d12+4 +4/1d12+7
Rage:
-Great Axe +7/1d12+7 +6/1d12+9
Rage + Mutagen:
-Bite +9/1d8+7 +8/1d8+9
-2xClaw +9/1d6+7 +8/1d6+9
Not too shabby.
For discoveries, I'd probably take infuse mutagen and explosive bomb next. You should be decent enough in hand to hand so that you can save your bombs for large groups of clumped enemies. Don't forget you can supply your own healing and other spell effects. And unlike normal spells, extracts don't require concentration so they can be used while raging.
What would an effective build for this class look like? I have looked it over and I am not sure where to start. I'd like to see a build out to 10.
There are some great idea's here. For a ranged Alchemist I like elf. Being able to fall back on a bow is very useful even when you don't get a +4 alchemical bonus to dex and bonus natural armor. I don't usually like weapon finesse but for this character I would pick it up and carry some poisoned rapier's but try to stay out of melee.
L1 Point blank shot, L3 precise shot, L5 Rapid shot, L7 far shot, L9 manyshot and you are deadly with bombs and bow. You can use smoke bombs to help protect your party from enemy archers and block charge lines, or take potent and fast bombs and just blow stuff up. Alchemical fire arrows would be a great item to make if your GM allows non-core stuff. For this class it makes the most sense. I think there's something like that in elves of golarion.
I'm actually in favor of playing the Alchemist as a Dex tank
lvl 9 alchemist, 1 fighter, 15 pt buy, Elf (Tiefling is slightly better if you can get your GM to swing it)
Str 7
Dex 18(+4 with mutagen)
Con 12
Int 18
Wis 10(-2 with mutagen)
Cha 7
Feats:
Quick Draw
Combat Reflexes
Exotic Weapon Proficiency: Whip
Standstill
Agile Maneuvers
Weapon Finesse
Discoveries:
Explosive Bombs
Precise Bombs
Sticky Poison
Fast Bombs
Your Will saves are going to suck, there isn't much you can do about it. In exchange, you can get amazing AC, Ref saves, and Fort saves. Your whip isn't going to be doing any damage but you can use it for trip maneuvers and coat it with dragon bile so that both trips and Standstills will be causing str damage to your opponents. Also, it's the only light reach weapon, which is important since you can't use Str to hit anything. You don't need the whip for damage anyway as you should be very capable of blowing up face with your bombs.
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The main thing to remember is whether you want to go Master Chymist or not. Or rather, whether you want to be a tank or do casting and skillmonkying as well. Master Chymist is one of the top damage dealers and just plain combat monstery classes in the game and if you go that route, just pushing combat stats as high as possible is all you need to do. If you don't want to go Master Chymist, but still want to melee, there's a couple of buts you need to consider if you are playing in an AP.
First of all, you can't tank all too well. You need to dip in a combat class and invest heavily in buffing spells if it does strike your fancy, but I would not rely on having the ability to chew full attacks as they come. Somebody else needs to do it, not an alchemist. Another problem is Will saving throws - you don't get any! Your headband slot is for Intelligence and Will is a low save for the class. Are you screwed? Well, you are more screwed than a fighter - they at least get +'s to fear saves, but that just means you take extra precaution. Iron Will, positive starting Wisdom score and Owl's Wisdom/Heroism are some things you don't enter a hostile area without. Perhaps get Indomitable Faith(+1 to Will) as a trait or Courageous(+2 against fear). Fighters can just buy/look for a Wisdom headband, but you won't have that luxury, especially if you don't live in a high pointbuy.
With that said, I'm sure there's other people here who can drop a hint on how to maximize the gishiness of the class. Just be careful with the mutagen, since the enhanced versions require even more mental stats to be lowered. If you do some kind of Dexterity-based combat monster, mutagen drops that Will even lower. I mean, look at the build a bit higher in the thread. 0 Will save? Ouch. That guy would be a total liability for any party I've played in and an easy win for them if he's on the other side. Hope he gets those 20's every time.
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The Alchemist is a real diverse creation, but ultimately boils down to two roles; Physical or Ranged/Explosives. The Alchemist itself is a very squishy person up in the front lines all by himself, he's not like the fighter, paladin, cavalier, or even battle druids who can go in there and take a beating. Monks have so many feats to help them compensate for a lack of armor and BAB compared to the harder hitters.
This might sound really stereotypical and closed-minded concerning this class, but in order to be efficent most people choose either the Mutagen/Extracts or the Bombs/Extracts and then grow from there.
I do not have as much experience as a Mutagen Alchemist, but what I can do is show you the more...explosive side of Alchemists.
Bombs are one of the many new things that were added into the expansive field of the alchemist. Without this and the Mutagen, this guy would really just be a Rogue without any sneak-attack bonuses and who could cast a few spells. Bombs are a great conjunction with the Extracts themselves, as both are modified by the INT modifier, which certainly makes their lives a lot easier to know what stats to modify first.
Usually, I like to order them as such: INT, DEX, STR, WIS, CON, CHA
INT and Dex are going to be your heavy hitters here, as INT is the staple on what most of the things a Bomber is going to be focusing on getting the most out of. Dex is there because, let's face it, you're NOT going to have a ton of bombs everywhere, unless you're planning on using 8/11 feats on just the Extra Bombs feature, and the next best thing for you is a bow or a crossbow of some kind. Str is for damage and carrying weight, although it and Wis can be interchanged in terms of importance, just remember that it's good to have SOME points in there to help you out. Con is ok to have, but keeping it at a neutral level won't really kill you to much if you just stay out of the main brawl. Cha is a dump stat for this one, sure Use Magic Device would be pretty nice, but most teams come equipped with a mage already so you can just toss whatever YOU can't use to them.
For a normal 20 point game...
STR: 14 (+2)
DEX: 15 (+2)
CON: 10 (0)
INT: 15 (+2)
WIS: 14 (+2)
CHA: 7 (-2)
This gives you a decent balance of what the Alchemist wants and needs in both offence and defence. The Wis boost also really helps his weak Will saves, so you won't be as much of a burden to the team when some mind-altering magic tries to get on your butt. This is without any racial modifiers, and can be tinkered around with a few more points. In reality, you could easily take down either the STR or the WIS modifier to 12 and then increase the INT towards 16, or 17 if you want to sacrifice more, all I have to say is be wary about how you approach how much you give and take away. Take to much away and your alchemist might not be as effective, but to much in and it might have to many things cluttering it.
For races, the best ones to use are by far Elves. If your GM will reccommend it, Teiflings are the better option though, as you get the same bonuses but instead of the cost of CON, it is replaced with CHA
Here's an elf using only the pre-build I just gave
STR: 14
DEX: 17
CON: 8
INT: 17
WIS: 14
CHA: 7
Again, not bad. Might sacrifice some points from STR or WIS into CON but still it's not a bad choice..
Teifling with the same pre-build:
STR: 14
DEX: 17
CON: 10
INT: 17
WIS: 14
CHA: 5
Lookit! nice an neat, but jimminy crickets look at the size of that CHA...it's kinda scary how bad it is...
Other races to forward towards are the Half-Elf, Human, and Half-Orc. While these only give just one +2, they make up for it with traits that could really help in the long run! Humans and Half-Elves sorta do better than the Half-Orcs though, but if you wanna, then don't let the man get you down, man. Halflings would be OK, if you didn't want such a poor CHA stat, although that'll result in a shorter STR. I wouldn't even try Gnomes or Dwarves. Although the Dwarves are nice, they really don't add onto what Blasters are good at.
For feats, focus on all of the more long range ones. Point-Blank and Precise being YOUR ABSOLUTE FIRST. I'm still a bit of a newb at all of this, but if it's one thing I know, it's that these things are going to be your best friends with any long-range person. Rapid Shot, Manyshot, and Deadly Shot should also be in that list as well, since the crossbow is going to be your biggest helper when your bombs are all said and done. A few Extra Bombs feats are fine too, as long as you use them in a decent pattern with other long-range feats and weapon specialisations.
Discoveries are a bit more self-explanatory. The bomb discoveries even more so, with most of the discoveries just changing what element the bomb makes when it goes boom. The two I'd like to point out though are Precise Bombs and Fast Bombs. I believe that Precise Bombs are going to always be your number one choice when making the Blaster Alchemist. It definately helps when you throw an explosive in your friends' way just to get to that troublesome enemy and have them not be affected by that splash radius. Fast Bombs will deplete your bombs a bit more, but it'll definiately begin to show it's prowess on the 8th level when you can get it. For the rest of the discoveries, I say just go crazy go nuts about picking. But there are two more that I'd like to briefly mention, however and that's the Extend Potion and Eternal Potion mix. In a nutshell, think about having a PERMANATE HASTE on yourself...yeah, enough said.
I hope I helped a bit...also I hope someone knows a bit more about the Mutagen class to help you out with that...oh and here, let me get this thing back on *glues your ears back on*
I would avoid poison. The cost, low DC, and proliferation of immune critters means it's rarely worth it.
Quick draw isn't neccesary, drawing a potion doesn't work with quickdraw, and drawing a bomb is already part of the action of attacking.
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The main thing to remember is whether you want to go Master Chymist or not. Or rather, whether you want to be a tank or do casting and skillmonkying as well. Master Chymist is one of the top damage dealers and just plain combat monstery classes in the game and if you go that route, just pushing combat stats as high as possible is all you need to do. If you don't want to go Master Chymist, but still want to melee, there's a couple of buts you need to consider if you are playing in an AP.
Unless you are worried a lot about 16th level+ abilities a few levels of Master Chymst works well be nearly all alchemists. With a 2 level dip you triple the time you can spend in Mutagenic form, gain the ability to choose your mutagen on the fly, and can take Dual Mind which gives you a save to many will based effects and lets you drop out of them and into your alternate form... Well worth it for most bombers.
First of all, you can't tank all too well. You need to dip in a combat class and invest heavily in buffing spells if it does strike your fancy, but I would not rely on having the ability to chew full attacks as they come. Somebody else needs to do it, not an alchemist.
Not really. Alchemists with Feral mutagen and high strength are nasty in melee. No multi classing required. Three attacks per round at 3/4 BAB doing 2x1d6 and 1x1d8 with full strength damage and full power attack... very competitive with tank classes. I guess if AC is a big priority you might have issues.
Another problem is Will saving throws - you don't get any! Your headband slot is for Intelligence and Will is a low save for the class. Are you screwed? Well, you are more screwed than a fighter - they at least get +'s to fear saves, but that just means you take extra precaution. Iron Will, positive starting Wisdom score and Owl's Wisdom/Heroism are some things you don't enter a hostile area without. Perhaps get Indomitable Faith(+1 to Will) as a trait or Courageous(+2 against fear). Fighters can just buy/look for a Wisdom headband, but you won't have that luxury, especially if you don't live in a high pointbuy.
Above mentioned Master Chymst dip with Dual Mind helps, also my alchemist is almost continuously using Heroism to which gives him a +2 on all saves.
But yeah, Iron Will and any Will save help is a good idea.
With that said, I'm sure there's other people here who can drop a hint on how to maximize the gishiness of the class. Just be careful with the mutagen, since the enhanced versions require even more mental stats to be lowered. If you do some kind of Dexterity-based combat monster, mutagen drops that Will even lower. I mean, look at the build a bit higher in the thread. 0 Will save? Ouch. That guy would be a total liability for any party I've played in and an easy win for them if he's on the other side. Hope he gets those 20's every time.
Yeah, low will saves are a big liability.
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If you are thinking of going melee you can either go whole hog and make a really nasty shredder at the expense of bombs and extracts, or make a switch hitting character who is decent at both.
Either way...
You can check out my guide to melee alchemists.
(there... my little bit of self promoting for the week)
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Elf Bomb chucker/party buffer
For a normal 20 build
STR 10
DEX 16
CON 12
INT 19
WIS 11
CHA 7
Feats
1st Point blank shot
3rd Precise shot
5th Extra Discovery: Infusion
7th Rapid shot
9th Extra Discovery: Force bomb
Discoveries
2-Precise bomb
4-Explosive bomb
6-Dispelling bomb or frost bomb
8-Fast bombs
10-Sticky bomb
-The basic idea is that in the same round You can set them on fire, with explosive bomb, knock them prone with the force bomb, and either remove their buffs with dispelling bomb or freeze them in place with frost bomb (i suggest using the force bomb last: you don't want the -4 to attack from being prone) Frost bomb+ force bomb is nasty because you only have a standard action and you need to either stand up (blowing their only action) or fight from the ground.. and then they get around 20 or so points of damage from the sticky bomb.
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The main thing to remember is whether you want to go Master Chymist or not.Unless you are worried a lot about 16th level+ abilities a few levels of Master Chymst works well be nearly all alchemists. With a 2 level dip you triple the time you can spend in Mutagenic form, gain the ability to choose your mutagen on the fly, and can take Dual Mind which gives you a save to many will based effects and lets you drop out of them and into your alternate form... Well worth it for most bombers.
True about only losing a few abilities, which just goes to show great a class the Chymist is. Bettet combat ability AND a higher Will save.
Naturally, that means you also need to play the part of the demented two-faced madman. Like with Paladins, many people will first look at the power and cool abilities, but then get turned off the class for having a very specific roleplaying aspect. So, it might look like an easy, almost no-brainer a dip, it won't that for everyone.
First of all, you can't tank all too well. You need to dip in a combat class and invest heavily in buffing spells if it does strike your fancy, but I would not rely on having the ability to chew full attacks as they come. Somebody else needs to do it, not an alchemist.Not really. Alchemists with Feral mutagen and high strength are nasty in melee. No multi classing required. Three attacks per round at 3/4 BAB doing 2x1d6 and 1x1d8 with full strength damage and full power attack... very competitive with tank classes. I guess if AC is a big priority you might have issues.
Yes, really. You misunderstood me. Alchemists are nasty when they hit, but to me "tanking" implies either being able to take a lot of damage or having an astounding AC so you do not get hit. And you WILL get hit. Attack boni rise exponentially, especially when you start to encounter hostiles who can buff themselves. Depending on the campaign, a tank might need an AC of 21+class level to pull it off or being able to chew around a hundred damage every other turn. This means the regular combat classes, such as Barbarians with their hitpoints, Paladins with their swift action LoH and Fighters with their full plates 'n shields, all apply. The Alchemist? Like the Magus or the Inquisitor, she's a glass cannon. She'd need armor proficiencies and a better hit die OR either dipping into another class or devoting feats and favored class boni to a singular focus to pull the tanking off.
Dipping is fine and burning feats to get Medium/Heavy Prof. and Toughness might work if you don't mind missing or getting some really nice feats late, but I think that's not what the class was designed to do. I'm fine with it being a high-damage(e.g mutagen+buffs+Permanent Haste+keen falchion will eventually be nasty for my alchemist) skill monkey guy who can do a variety of things. In that sense, he's like the other "3/4 bab, some spellcasting"-classes Paizo has so far produced. An advanced sort of class that you need some maneuvering and thought to play as.
Alchemists love things that they can stagger or drop prone and otherwise weaken with bombs first before closing in on melee or having a melee buddy who's taking the tanking role, allowing you to shred with those claws without impunity. He's a bit like the Rogue in that sense of doing a bit of everything. Except when the Rogue is saving money to buy boots of speed/flight or desperately looking for more boni to hit(I've seen this get absolutely ridiculous at high levels), the Alchemist just drinks an extract to solve the problem.
So what about building along the line of alchemist/master chymist with a one-level dip of fighter to get heavy armors, shield, and martial weapons, as well as a bonus combat feat? Has anyone crunched the numbers on that?
So what about building along the line of alchemist/master chymist with a one-level dip of fighter to get heavy armors, shield, and martial weapons, as well as a bonus combat feat? Has anyone crunched the numbers on that?
Well you wouldnt' want martial weapons really.
But if you went full alchemist/master chymist you can easily have somewhere in the ball park of 32 str at the end netting you a huge damage bonus. Due to the large increase of str from alchemist, you offset the 2-3 points of BAB you've lost.
You've got the ability to make a rage potion (Which you can persist all day)
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So what about building along the line of alchemist/master chymist with a one-level dip of fighter to get heavy armors, shield, and martial weapons, as well as a bonus combat feat? Has anyone crunched the numbers on that?
I would suggest barbarian rather than fighter if you do that.
Feral mutagen is better than a martial weapon because you get all your attacks with no penalties and at full strength (and full power attack). If you are really trying to maximize the damage numbers look at feral mutagen and 4 levels of Master Chymst from 9th through 12th level. If you pick up Furious Mutagen, Brutality, and Greater Mutagen. You get an increase in damage dice across the board, +2 damage on all attacks, and three times duration in mutagenic form (But lose 2 'caster' levels with extracts).
So what about building along the line of alchemist/master chymist with a one-level dip of fighter to get heavy armors, shield, and martial weapons, as well as a bonus combat feat? Has anyone crunched the numbers on that?I would suggest barbarian rather than fighter if you do that.
Feral mutagen is better than a martial weapon because you get all your attacks with no penalties and at full strength (and full power attack). If you are really trying to maximize the damage numbers look at feral mutagen and 4 levels of Master Chymst from 9th through 12th level. If you pick up Furious Mutagen, Brutality, and Greater Mutagen. You get an increase in damage dice across the board, +2 damage on all attacks, and three times duration in mutagenic form (But lose 2 'caster' levels with extracts).
My thought on the martial weapons was that they're weapons, not mutagens, so they stick around, don't need to be mixed, and don't wear off, and they help the alchemist get to the point where he can take master chymist. But more important than that in my mind was the heavy armor, which seems like it could really boost survivability, especially given that I can see Dexterity given the short shrift in a build that already needs to emphasize Strength, Constitution, and Intelligence. Am I wrong on that?
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Throw Anything grants a +1 circumstance bonus on attack rolls with thrown splash weapons, right? I love it!
My gnome alchemist bomb thrower build looks something like the following at level 1:
20 point buy (hopefully)
Before racial adjustments...
Str 12, Dex 15, Con 12, Int 16, Wis 10, Cha 9
After racial adjustments...
Str 10, Dex 15, Con 14, Int 16, Wis 10, Cha 11
Alternate Racial Trait: Pyromaniac (replaces Gnome Magic and Illusion Resistance)
Favored Class Bonus: +1/2 bombs per day
Skills: Craft: alchemy (+9), Knowledge: arcana (+7), Perception (+6), Spellcraft (+7), Stealth* (+7), Use Magic Device (+4)
*not a class skill
Traits: TBD x2
Feats: Point Blank Shot
Ranged: bomb +4 (+2 dex, +1 size, +1 circumstance) +1 to attack within 30 ft. Do you also get +1 to damage? An additional +2 to attack when using mutagen
Ranged: longbow +3 (+2 dex, +1 size) +1 to attack and damage within 30 ft. An additional +2 to attack when using mutagen
AC 15 (+2 armor, +2 dex, +1 size), 19 when using mutagen (+2 armor, +2 natural armor, +4 dex, +1 size)
Formulae known: bomber's eye, comprehend languages, cure light wounds, expeditious retreat, and shield
Edit: added starting formulae
I just realized I can't take longbow with the gnome. Hmm. I may go for an elven build then. Something to think about.
Elven build at level 1:
Str 13 (+1)
Dex 15+2=17 (+3)
Con 14-2=12 (+1)
Int 15+2=17 (+3)
Wis 10 (+0)
Cha 8 (-1)
BTW, when is a good time to take a couple of levels in Master Chymist if you're going for a bomber build? Thanks!
Melee Alchemist 20 Point buy...
(I am playing a barbarian 1 alchemist out, however, i think this may have been the wrong decision. Another option is warrior 1 barbarian out this may be the better choice. I am playing a half orc for the bite. I think a human for the feat would be better.)
Race Human
Str 18 +4 (10 points because of racial bonus)
Dex 15 +2 (7 points)
Con 12 +1 (2 Points)
Int 14 +2 (5 Points)
Wis 10 0 (0 pints)
Cha 7 -2 (+4 Points)
Traits: Accelerated Drinker (should work with extracts, mutagen ???)
Heirloom weapon Great Sword (Consideration: If you want you take take the armor proficiencies and don't need to take the martial weapon cause you are proficient with your heirloom for free... if you lose your hierloom though it sucks)
Now there really are some decisions to make. We really want better armor proficency and we also really want martial weapon proficency. (However, do we need heavy armor right away? We can't afford at level 1 and it will costrict our dex bonus, however are goal is to get a 16 dex and mithrial play so we get are full +3 dex bonus. So if we want to go medium armor we can do barbarian 1. If we want heavy armor and an extra feat Warrior.)
So maybe we go
Alchemist 1: Vivesectionst (alternate class no bombs but sneak dice)
Feat: Extra Discovery - vestigial arm
Feat: Extra Discovery - vestigial arm
Alchemist 1 / Warrior 1: Feat: Power Attack
Alchemist 2 / Warrior 1: Discovery: Feral Mutagen
Feat: Weapon Focus Great Sword (or Bleeding Attack)
Ok well in my mind this is when the crazyness starts. I will let you build out the rest.
Attack routine: MW Great Sword +9 2d6+6, 2 Claw +1 1d6+2,Bite +1 1d8+2
Attack W/Flank: Adds +2 to hit and +1d6 to each attack's damage
Attack w/mut str and power attack: MW Great Sword +10 2d6+12, 2 Claw +2 1d6+4,Bite +2 1d8+4
then consider flank and mut str and power attack
Well hope this helps.
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Contributor, RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16
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Traits: Accelerated Drinker (should work with extracts, mutagen ???)
Heirloom weapon Great Sword (Consideration: If you want you take take the armor proficiencies and don't need to take the martial weapon cause you are proficient with your heirloom for free... if you lose your hierloom though it sucks)
You should dig around for the errata/ FAQs on both of these. Accelerated Drinker does not work on extracts or mutagens. Heirloom weapon was seriously altered (The latest PDF is current or you can go to the product page for the errata).
So maybe we go
Alchemist 1: Vivesectionst (alternate class no bombs but sneak dice)
Feat: Extra Discovery - vestigial arm
Feat: Extra Discovery - vestigial arm
Alchemist 1 / Warrior 1: Feat: Power Attack
Alchemist 2 / Warrior 1: Discovery: Feral Mutagen
Feat: Weapon Focus Great Sword (or Bleeding Attack)Ok well in my mind this is when the crazyness starts. I will let you build out the rest.
Attack routine: MW Great Sword +9 2d6+6, 2 Claw +1 1d6+2,Bite +1 1d8+2
Attack W/Flank: Adds +2 to hit and +1d6 to each attack's damage
Attack w/mut str and power attack: MW Great Sword +10 2d6+12, 2 Claw +2 1d6+4,Bite +2 1d8+4
then consider flank and mut str and power attackWell hope this helps.
#1 You cannot take Extra Discovery at first level. You don't qualify for it until second level.
#2 Your vestigial arms don't get you more attacks per round. Sean Reynolds talked about this a bit in a different thread. Basically they can be used in place of an existing attack but not to get you additional attack. It mentions this in the discovery but it's not very clearly spelled out.
I enjoyed my Alchemist V Terrorist style: Preservationist Alchemist. Just bombs and summons, then with the infusion ability you can give your pets any of your extracts (Detonate become nasty :) ). If you have little or not at all preparation time, you can rely on bombs until you get some free time for planification. Alchemist can be good summoners, you can take all of the Summoning-theme feats and with P. Summoner levels only (along with Planar Preservationis feat).
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Contributor, RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16
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I enjoyed my Alchemist V Terrorist style: Preservationist Alchemist. Just bombs and summons, then with the infusion ability you can give your pets any of your extracts (Detonate become nasty :) ). If you have little or not at all preparation time, you can rely on bombs until you get some free time for planification. Alchemist can be good summoners, you can take all of the Summoning-theme feats and with P. Summoner levels only (along with Planar Preservationis feat).
I like this idea, I am doing a preservationist/ vivisectionist. My thought was to take a monkey tumor familiar and having the monkey launch my summoning balls and extracts. Not sure how many GMs would let this fly but there it is.
The weird thing is Augment Summoning requires Spell Focus (conjuration) which alchemists don't qualify for (and if they did is worthless). I know it says they can apply Augment Summoning but they can't qualify for it. I like to think most GMs would hand wave this but... its there.
My Gm had no problem when I took Spell Focus with my Alchemist, indeed the feat has no prerequisite (unless you count the flavour text). It would be worthless, much like Augment Summoning, by strictly RAW, but the text in the Preservationist as you mentioned and the case of Summoner's SLA ability, encourages GM to make it legitimate. That's as I view the RAI.
But yeah, maybe official clarification would be appreciated.
I wonder who augment summoning affects when it is used as an infusion by someone else. What happens if the extract is given to a conjurer wizard who has augment summoning? What about other feats like superior summoning as well.
I wish they'd do something about the Spell Focus requirement for Augment Summoning for the Alchemist; it's not just a feat tax, it's utterly worthless.
I wish they'd do something about the Spell Focus requirement for Augment Summoning for the Alchemist; it's not just a feat tax, it's utterly worthless.
Unless of course they expect you to multiclass with a Wizard in order to qualify for it and they put it in there as an option if you happen to be multiclassing.
Hm, you are right. I'd just assumed Spell Focus required... spell casting. Serves me right for saying something without looking at it.
Bad Ogre.
Off Topic
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Contributor, RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16
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Good luck with the archetype. Seems to me dimension door comes into play at 7th level so that's kind of a hard minimum for qualifying for the first feat and you probably shouldn't lower the ability below that.
I'm excited to try my luck with an Alchemist. I have a few questions though:
Feral mutagen = 2 claw, 1 bite attack
- can u place a weapon in each of those claws to raise the damage?
- does using the 2 weapons now require diving into the 2 weapon fighting tree?
- can poisons be applied to the claw and bite attacks?
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My plan is a gnome mr hyde alchemist. Of course, using enlarge person whenever in "freal form". Seems like a fun time. Any suggestions? Please don't go into the whole "gnome is a bad choice" debate, I'm interested in ideas for the best ways to make this work as effectively as possible.
Feral mutagen = 2 claw, 1 bite attack
- can u place a weapon in each of those claws to raise the damage?
-Yes, but then you're two weapon fighting (with all the penalties for two weapon fighting involved) and taking a -5 on your claw attacks.
- does using the 2 weapons now require diving into the 2 weapon fighting tree?
If you want to hit the broad side of an orc, yes.
can poisons be applied to the claw and bite attacks?
The claw attacks yes. I'm pretty sure most DM's will require that you get poison immunity before applying it to your bite attacks without suffering the effects.
My plan is a gnome mr hyde alchemist. Of course, using enlarge person whenever in "feral form". Seems like a fun time. Any suggestions? Please don't go into the whole "gnome is a bad choice" debate, I'm interested in ideas for the best ways to make this work as effectively as possible.
You know, i don't think you gain anything going from small to medium. You may have more DPR with the increased attack from being small.
I'm thinking multi attack and weapon finesse if you want to do it that way.
And i have to reiterate my own personal experience that relying on full attack is a bad idea.
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Contributor, RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16
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If you are going with feral mutagen you are almost guaranteed to be better just going with the claws and but rather than taking a weapon. Two Weapon fighting takes a lot of feats and you still wind up with a lower attack bonus. It isn't until you get to 8th level or so that you get more attacks with TWF and even then they have a much lower chance to hit.
In any case, if you do go with two weapon fighting, don't bother with feral mutagen since the only benefit would be a bite attack at -5 to hit.
I'm thinking multi attack and weapon finesse if you want to do it that way.
How does weapon finesse help?
You know, i don't think you gain anything going from small to medium. You may have more DPR with the increased attack from being small.
You get the same benefits and penalties from going small to medium as you do going from medium to large. Don't you?
Can the claw attacks be benefit from a feat like improved unarmed combat? Or some other combo?
I was thinking of starting stats (25 point buy) like this:
str = 14
dex = 13
con = 14
int = 17
wis = 10
cha = 12
replacing: gnome magic and illusion resistance for pyromaniac
this allows for an 18 str in "hyde" form or 17 dex in "mad bomber" mode
while wis is a dump stat, i'm not sure how wise (pun intended) it would be to drop to 8 or even 7, due to the mutagen penalty of -2.
also would like a little clarification: for the bomb (splash weapon) attack, it's a ranged touch attack. does this mean it's calculated with dex for the throw/attack and add str to dam? Does str affect the distance the bomb can be thrown? Does the str bonus to dam, stack with the alchemist bomb int bonus to dam?
I'm thinking multi attack and weapon finesse if you want to do it that way.
How does weapon finesse help?
If you're going to be a gnome you're going to get a penalty to your strength. I know you don't want to hear it, but gnome is a decent choice for a bomb chucker but a bad choice for a "claw your face" alchemist.
You get the same benefits and penalties from going small to medium as you do going from medium to large. Don't you?You don't gain reach. Reach is VERY important for getting attacks of opportunity, blocking for your casters, and moving more foes within 5 foot step range of a full attack.
Can the claw attacks be benefit from a feat like improved unarmed combat? Or some other combo?Improved unarmed combat no, improved natural attack yes.
Improved Natural Attack
Attacks made by one of this creature's natural attacks leave vicious wounds.
Prerequisite: Natural weapon, base attack bonus +4.
Benefit: Choose one of the creature's natural attack forms (not an unarmed strike). The damage for this natural attack increases by one step on the following list, as if the creature's size had increased by one category. Damage dice increase as follows: 1d2, 1d3, 1d4, 1d6, 1d8, 2d6, 3d6, 4d6, 6d6, 8d6, 12d6.
A weapon or attack that deals 1d10 points of damage increases as follows: 1d10, 2d8, 3d8, 4d8, 6d8, 8d8, 12d8.
I was thinking of starting stats (25 point buy) like this:
str = 14
dex = 13
con = 14
int = 17
wis = 10
cha = 12You're going to have to spend a LOT of time buffing up for that gnome to be combat decent.
also would like a little clarification: for the bomb (splash weapon) attack, it's a ranged touch attack. does this mean it's calculated with dex for the throw/attack and add str to dam? Does str affect the distance the bomb can be thrown? Does the str bonus to dam, stack with the alchemist bomb int bonus to dam?The bomb is calculated with dex to hit, but i believe doesn't add strength damage.
[You don't gain reach. Reach is VERY important for getting attacks of opportunity, blocking for your casters, and moving more foes within 5 foot step range of a full attack.]
I think you are implying that I'll be the tank. I don't see this character as a tank by any means. Or at least, only filling in as a temp tank, as needed.
[You're going to have to spend a LOT of time buffing up for that gnome to be combat decent.]
Where am I spending all the time buffing? I'm talking about using a mutagen and an extract, same as any other alchemist would do? I guess what I should ask is, what buffing will the gnome be doing above and beyond any other alchemist?
I think you are implying that I'll be the tank. I don't see this character as a tank by any means. Or at least, only filling in as a temp tank, as needed.
You're going for melee damage, those are all important aspects of doing decent melee damage.
Where am I spending all the time buffing? I'm talking about using a mutagen and an extract, same as any other alchemist would do? I guess what I should ask is, what buffing will the gnome be doing above and beyond any other alchemist?
The mutagen only lasts an hour till you hit level 14? so you won't have it out for most of your fights, and the extract is another round. if you spend 2 rounds buffing you've probably just halved your damage per round.
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Regarding the tank option, my alchemist actually does fairly well splitting the tank option with the Barb/ Rogue in our party. True right out the door they hurt but Barkskin stacks with the Mutagen's nat armor, they have shield and false life on their spell list. Combine this with the new self-healing discoveries and a tank build with the Vivisectionist archtype is very survivable.
I've also taken improved nat weapon with the claw/bite and combined with the master chymist's improved nat dmg discovery my bite will do 3d6base and each claw 2d6 plus str, sneak atack (6d6 by then) and brutality (another +2).
And you can still pass out fun buffs to the rest of the party.
just to clarify:
The mutagen only lasts an hour till you hit level 14? so you won't have it out for most of your fights, and the extract is another round. if you spend 2 rounds buffing you've probably just halved your damage per round.
- Is this ANY different than any other alchemist?
You don't gain reach. Reach is VERY important for getting attacks of opportunity, blocking for your casters, and moving more foes within 5 foot step range of a full attack.
You're going for melee damage, those are all important aspects of doing decent melee damage.
- These are all things a tank or controller should be worried about, not necessarily me. These are nice things to help out, but not the "end all" of melee damage.
Once again: please focus on ideas to help, not reasons for why it won't work. Thank you though for all the great info, you've been providing.
Can I take the "extra discovery" feat, as my 1st lvl character creation feat?
- Is this ANY different than any other alchemist?
Most alchemists get better when they buff but don't actually require it (yes yes i know , less doom and gloom more help but you asked.)
- These are all things a tank or controller should be worried about, not necessarily me. These are nice things to help out, but not the "end all" of melee damage.
The claw claw bite routine (which is what you want) is highly reliant on full attacks for damage.
Once again: please focus on ideas to help, not reasons for why it won't work. Thank you though for all the great info, you've been providing.
What that means is that you're going to want a backup weapon. A longspear is good for you because its simple, so you get a bonus to damage with those as mr hyde, as well as 1.5 times your strength for two hands. That will help a lot if you're moving around. You can get one attack with it as people come at you, then drop it and claw people that get inside your reach. You can also use a greatclub if your mutagen isn't up. When you're small.. compensate.
I still can't beleive the master chymist doesn't get the hour per/level mutagen discovery. Did i miss a rule somewhere?
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Can I take the "extra discovery" feat, as my 1st lvl character creation feat?
No. You need to have discovery before you can take extra discovery, and you don't get that till 2nd level.