Is it just me, or is the Heirloom Weapon trait (from the Adventurer's Armory) noticeably better than most other PFS-legal traits? For a single trait I get a masterwork weapon, plus proficiency with it, plus a bonus to all attack rolls with it.
I'm having a hard time imagining when I wouldn't want to take it. Even if I didn't want to use a weapon at all, I could still get something like a masterwork quarterstaff and then sell it for an extra 300 gp in starting money (sleazy, I know).
Anyone agree that it should be placed next to "Rich Parents" in the "too good for PFS" vault? Or am I just a killjoy?
|
I agree with Robert - treat it as an item you purchased via faction points.
You also have to keep in mind - as a wizard you can get a bonded MW object for free as well. My Wizard has a MW quarterstaff - albeit with a Strength 7 he only seldom uses it. But I had my moments (got down a mite !).
You also need to look at the small print - once you lose the weapon - you lose the bonus as the bonus is tied to this specific weapon and no other one. PFS would allow you to upgrade a MW weapon to magical - but depending on GM you might be stuck later in game.
A nice started feat. But I don't think overpowered.
Thod
|
|
Nah, although I would probably treat the weapon like an item purchased via faction points (i.e. sell value of 0gp).
I think that is a really nice way to solve potential problems.
Traits like this or Rich Parents aren't so terrible really. The bonus is great on your first adventure or two, but the advantage of a masterwork weapon is pretty much erased after a couple levels.
RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
|
Nah, although I would probably treat the weapon like an item purchased via faction points (i.e. sell value of 0gp).I think that is a really nice way to solve potential problems.
Traits like this or Rich Parents aren't so terrible really. The bonus is great on your first adventure or two, but the advantage of a masterwork weapon is pretty much erased after a couple levels.
That was my thought. Heck I'd take rich parents MW bastard sword and MW chain shirt still leaves me with 300 GP.
A nice started feat. But I don't think overpowered.
The free weapon by itself probably wouldn't bother me, I admit. By coupled with free proficiency and a free +1 bonus? By that logic, Exotic Weapon Proficiency and Weapon Focus should be worth about half a trait each, shouldn't they?
I bet that I'm going to see just about every melee fighter taking this trait from now on. I guess I'll have to wait and see.
|
I think the trait is a pretty strong compared to other traits and feats. In my regular game it would be darn good at lower level and later would be hampered by the fact that enhancing that specific weapon at higher level would take too much time during adventuring. Playing under PFS rules, I think that it is a powerful trait, maybe too powerful.
+1 trait bonus to attack rolls is very good for a single trait.
|
|
A nice started feat. But I don't think overpowered.
The free weapon by itself probably wouldn't bother me, I admit. By coupled with free proficiency and a free +1 bonus? By that logic, Exotic Weapon Proficiency and Weapon Focus should be worth about half a trait each, shouldn't they?
I bet that I'm going to see just about every melee fighter taking this trait from now on. I guess I'll have to wait and see.
As a GM I actually like it a lot. It gives the character some history, some flair. This is what I like about Pathfinder - it tried to get roleplay back into the game.
One issue I see on these boards is that people look how to optimize everything and this can get in the way of such a trait.
So the Dwarven Fighter takes an exotic weapon to ensure he also gets the exotic weapon feat for free. What is wrong with a dwarven fighter who has the hairloom MW Dwarven Axe passed down 2 generations.
Roleplay wise he would be offended if someone even would offer him money for the weapon. But off course - we try to minmax here. So get him a MW Quarterstaff that is valued more and can be sold.
Or we take a quite exotic weapon that a dwarf hardly would use - to get a free feat. Shouldn't heirloom indicate it is likely for a dwarf that it is a weapon with dwarf in it's name etc. Or if it is exotic - why not a quirky underpowered weapon that somehow got into the family and is valued a lot.
I sometimes despair ... Do we really always have to look at it from the direction of max benefit ...
In regard to overpowered - well - what happens if as a GM who dislikes your non-fitting hairloom weapon to send in an opponent with the sunder feat - or a rogue who steals it from you.
Not a good idea - the player would assume he is picked upon - probably rightly so. But the GM has enough in the arsenal to ensure it isn't overpowered. So in my home-game I would encourage the trait if it fits - but I wouldn't be happy for misusing it.
For PFS - maybe I was wrong. I like it as written - but it surely has misuse potential.
Thod
As a GM I actually like it a lot. It gives the character some history, some flair. This is what I like about Pathfinder - it tried to get roleplay back into the game.
For a regular game, I would agree (although I think the +1 bonus on attacks is gilding the lily a little bit -- the free weapon and proficiency is enough for a trait, IMO).
But I'm imagining a Pathfinder Society table:
"That's your grandpappy's meteor hammer? What a coincidence -- this is my grandpappy's launching crossbow!"
"Hey, you guys got a weapon from your grandpappy, too? That's where I got this falcata!"
"Yeah, and that's where I got my injection spear! There's a lot of history in this ol' injection spear..."
|
|
The free weapon by itself probably wouldn't bother me, I admit. By coupled with free proficiency and a free +1 bonus? By that logic, Exotic Weapon Proficiency and Weapon Focus should be worth about half a trait each, shouldn't they?
I bet that I'm going to see just about every melee fighter taking this trait from now on. I guess I'll have to wait and see.
The trait doesn't give you a full proficiency or +1 bonus. You are only considered proficient with that one, specific weapon. If I have a wizard with a heirloom longsword ("Uncle Bob's old sword"), then he can use "Uncle Bob's old sword" without suffering the non-proficient penalty. If he picks up any other longsword in the world, he isn't proficient in it ("it doesn't feel the same as Uncle Bob's old sword). Same with the bonus. You only get the +1 when using that specific weapon.
This is nice for non-fighter types who don't get proficiency with all martial weapons. The bonuses help make up for their lower BAB (and probably lower physical stat).
I don't see a huge bonus for fighters, though. The trait gives you a masterwork weapon, which is nice. The proficiency is redundant, so no benefit there. The +1 is ok, but it isn't a replacement for actual Weapon Focus. It only works with that one specific weapon and, more importantly, it doesn't fill the requirement of Weapon Focus. So you're going to have to take Weapon Focus anyway if you want to specialize or take any of the feats that are based on Weapon Focus.
I can definitely see the merit in making this trait not usable on Exotic weapons, though.
The best use of this trait, I think, would be as a bonded item for a wizard planning to go eldritch knight. I think it's a powerful trait, but not so broken that I think it should be banned from society play. (I'm speaking now as a GM and player, not as Josh's mouthpiece during his vacation; he could easily change his mind on it when he returns.) In PFS, the prestige system allows for so much in terms of weapon power scaling that I think the feat would work better here than in a general campaign, since not every GM is going to allow people to upgrade existing weapons with as much ease.
The best use of this trait, I think, would be as a bonded item for a wizard planning to go eldritch knight.
I think the most popular use would be to "upgrade" whichever weapon a melee fighter was going to use. E.g., if I were planning to use a longsword, why not upgrade it to a bastard sword or a falcata (with an extra +1 to attacks, to boot)? Or if I were planning to use a longspear, why not upgrade it to a fauchard or meteor hammer?
Note: I'm not saying this trait is "overpowered"; that's not the word I would use. I'd probably use the word "no-brainer" or something like that. Similarly for the Rich Parents trait; I don't think it's overpowered, but I think it would be very popular if it were legal for PFS play.
Like I said, I'll have to wait and see how popular it actually is.
|
|
Within society, I think it is very powerful for levels 1-2 when bonuses are limited and harder to come by and many monsters can be slain or seriously hurt with a single hit from the BSF. Essentially a "free" +2 to attacks that stacks with everything else. Definately a "no-brainer" selection. Definately helps the monk at low levels be a bigger threat with FoB and offsets PA. It also lets you focus your cash on more efficient uses like MW armor and shields or potions/scrolls. In a home-game environment, if the trait is over-used, sundering opponents can put things back in line. However, in society, I'm not sure how most players would react to having their favorite weapon destroyed and no real way to recover the item or the trait within the game.
|
|
"Yeah, and that's where I got my injection spear! There's a lot of history in this ol' injection spear..."
I was actually already drawing up an alchemist who carried an injection spear as a heirloom style weapon before this trait came out. I had already accepted that I would have to "work with it" until 3rd level before I got the hang of it. This trait was such a surprising godsend. The character is a Plague Doctor whose father was conspiring with the derro when some adventures busted up the lab and meted out vengeance. He took up the spear and set out to make up for some of the damage done by his family.
"yep this here injection spear does have a lot of history"
The +1 is ok, but it isn't a replacement for actual Weapon Focus.
The extra bonus should be phrased so it doesn't stack with WF. I don't even see why it is necessary, free MW weapon AND proficiency in it is amazing, and there's zero reason you can't keep upgrading it in-game.
Even in a non-PFS game where there's things to do besides wait weeks or months for a NPC to enchant your item, you can hand over your heirloom weapon to be 'upgraded' and get some other weapon to use in the mean-time (for an adventure or two), which you would probably be doing anyways if that's how your campaign goes. Or use some spell to replicate it EXACTLY, thus you should still be proficient in the copy.
Why is this trait getting all the hype? It doesn't seem nearly as powerful as the Aldori Swordlord trait which ALSO gives a +1 trait bonus to attacks, but unlike the Heirloom Weapon trait, it can never truly be take away from you.
You can't take Aldori Sword Scion in PFS, and this feat gives you 2 feats and 300 gp worth os stuff in a sly, only one weapon way. But I really don't think thats right as almost nobody ever will lose thier heirloom weapon. I like the trait, but it's not fair in terms of PFS. And in my home games I would probably get rid of the +1 to hit.
There are tons of ways you could lose an heirloom weapon-sundering, rust monster, right out theft... I don't think this trait is any more powerful than the Andoran faction trait that gives you proficiency with long or short bows and takes away the negatives for long range (essentially, weapon proficiency in one of the bows and far shot for free)
It gives you proficiency with a bow, but (a) it only helps your attack roll when you're between 1 and 2 range increments away, (b) it doesn't give a +1 bonus on attacks, and (c) it doesn't save you 300 gp.
|
|
Ridiculous trait - easily better than a feat. It is distinctly better than Aldori Swordlord (which does not provide proficiency), which is already a feat-powered trait. *Campaign Traits* can be strong, but this is not only not a campaign trait, it's an entirely new class of traits, so can be used with any existing one (though trait bonuses don't stack of course, so combining with Aldori Swordlord isn't bad).
As for "replacing Weapon Focus" - it one-ups that, it *stacks* with it, which is far more powerful.
Taking off the proficiency or the +1 is a requirement before I'd even consider allowing this trait.
Exotic Weapon Proficiency + Weapon Focus + 300gp + yummy flavor that would prompt someone to take it even without the benefits? As Hogarth said, no-brainer *and* broken.
No, it doesn't give you a +1 bonus on attacks, but it does give you proficiency with ANY bow of that type, not just one bow.
I guess, but how often are you going to use two different longbows (say) in PFS play?
And gives you effectively two feats, just like heirloom weapon does.
I don't think "ignore the range penalty between 1 and 2 range increments with a bow" is worth a feat. It's certainly not equivalent to Far Shot.
And I don't see either of them are unreasonable for PFS play--just my opinion.
Possibly, but Rich Parents has been banned and I don't think it's more powerful than Heirloom Weapon.
As Hogarth said, no-brainer *and* broken.
I wouldn't use the word "broken", personally.
|
In my opinion, the +1 trait bonus helps at earlier levels, but at higher levels the +1 becomes more negligible, esp when you have to deal with mobs with higher AC and other special/inherent abilities.
Edit: I forgot to mention, if you want to make the heirloom of a special material, you can't because it starts off as MW quality already.
|
RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
|
The Dervish Dance feat mentions as one of its prerequisites : "proficient with scimitar".
Would this trait be enough (ie being proficient with a specific scimitar, the one that I use for Dervish Dancing) or do I need the complete Proficiency (as a feat then for my Monk/Rogue) ?
Personally? I'd say you need the feat for PFS. It says 'proficient with scimitar' not 'proficient with Uncle Bob's scimitar'
Now in Matthew's home game? If you want to build around one weapon that can/will get stolen/rusted/sundered/eaten, knock yourself out, but don't be surprised when your feat chain gets shut down.
|
I really like this trait as it helps fix the problem of Exotic Weapon Proficiency. Unfortunately there is a mixture of exotic weapons, ones that are simply strange and "exotic" and then there are those which have some slight edge in weapon stats.
If it just got you EWP or martial weapon proficiency for one weapon it wouldn't be too bad. This gives a lot more than that.
Absolutely. If someone sunders my magic bow in the middle of combat, I can pick up any other bow and use it with the Andoran trait. If someone sunders my heirloom weapon, I'm -4 when I pick up another weapon of the same type. As I said, just my opinion--you're also entitled to yours!
Without any spoilers, in which PFS adventure did this happen to you?
It hasn't (in PFS--though it happened many, many times in LG)--I don't have a character with the Andoran trait we're talking about,either, as yet.
Without any spoilers, in which PFS adventure did this happen to you?
Ah. I was confused that you answered my question "How often does it happen?" with "Absolutely."
|
|
I've only played/GM'd maybe twenty of the scenarios, but off the top of my head I can think of two that have encounters which deal damage to weapons used by the PCs.
You have reminded me that certain creatures can destroy weapons and I can think of one in PFS off the top of my head that I have seen so far.
|
|
I've only played/GM'd maybe twenty of the scenarios, but off the top of my head I can think of two that have encounters which deal damage to weapons used by the PCs.You have reminded me that certain creatures can destroy weapons and I can think of one in PFS off the top of my head that I have seen so far.
I think the main issue is - apart of monsters that have an inbuild property to destroy weapons - GMs don't tend to use sunder.
Yes - I'm aware of at least one such monster and a wizard was looking badly suprised when his bonded quarterstaff got the broken condition. He should have paid more attention to my flavour text when the swords hitting the monster got nicks and sparks flying off.
The issue I see is - unless in future scenarios there are monsters/NPCs that specifically have in the description that they use sunder - that a player will feel targeted.
As a GM - do you use OOC knowledge when you sunder a heirloom weapon? While 100% inside the rules - you have to be careful here.
Thod
But I also believe that there are a fair number of options to repair the weapon if it were destroyed. I wouldn't be terribly worried that a scenario would cause me to be unable to recover the weapon.I can really only think of one--make whole. And that would restore it back to a masterwork weapon. Which is fine, if you haven't enchanted it, or only made it +1 or something.
Even if you've enchanted it, you can still fix the masterwork weapon and get it re-enchanted again.
Yes, but you have to pay for it again. That's my point.
You have to pay for any broken weapon. It makes absolutely no difference whether it's an Heirloom Weapon or not, so I'm not sure why we're discussing it in this thread.
The only difference is that, in the unlikely case that your Heirloom Weapon gets broken, you won't be able to use a backup weapon of the same type. Big whoop.
|
Yes, but you have to pay for it again. That's my point.Even if you've enchanted it, you can still fix the masterwork weapon and get it re-enchanted again.But I also believe that there are a fair number of options to repair the weapon if it were destroyed. I wouldn't be terribly worried that a scenario would cause me to be unable to recover the weapon.I can really only think of one--make whole. And that would restore it back to a masterwork weapon. Which is fine, if you haven't enchanted it, or only made it +1 or something.
Not true. If the caster of Make Whole is twice the level of the magic item, then it will repair the magic item to what it was previously.
from Core Rule Book, "Make whole can fix destroyed magic items (at 0 hit points or less), and restores the magic properties of the item if your caster level is at least twice that of the item."
Emphasis mine.
|
RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16
|
Still, my point is that, until you get it fixed, you've lost the "proficiency" you had. Until you can get it fixed, you're -4 to all of your attacks, because you're only proficient with that one weapon, not any other weapon of the same type. I feel this is what makes the trait as balanced as any of the other weapon traits around.
Terabithia, I guess hogarth's concern, and mine as well, is that this isn't much of a drawback if it never happens. (Green Lantern only has one ring, so if it gets broken by somebody, he's out of luck. But that never happens, so it's not much of a limitation.)
And in Pathfinder Society adventures, it seems very rare. (Although, you know, that might change...)