That's not true at all! In fact in v3.0 a Weapon Master could achieve a threat range of 13-20.
And no, that's not in PF. Basically, if you started with a rapier (18-20), and made it Keen or got Imp. Critical (not both!) then it would double: 18-20>15-20
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Tanis is correct. 15-20 is the largest critical range possible given the standard rules. In the hands of a 20th level fighter who had specialized in the rapier or scimitar, it could be 15-20/x3, but the range does not increase with the fighter's weapon mastery. Only the multiplier.
Well there is one obscure prestige class somewhere (one of my players wants to play it for the CotCT campaign) that would allow crits of 12-20...
Don't know how it was called but it was in combination with an equally obscure feat...
And he wanted to combine this with a feat that if you crit you get an extra attack...
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The Prestige Class is the Weapon Master (or Kensai) from 3.0 Oriental Adventures und Sword and Fist. While that class never was updated to 3.5, the Psychic Weapon Master was.
Well there is one obscure prestige class somewhere (one of my players wants to play it for the CotCT campaign) that would allow crits of 12-20...
Don't know how it was called but it was in combination with an equally obscure feat...And he wanted to combine this with a feat that if you crit you get an extra attack...
read up ppl, read up.
Actually you could get a critical range higher than 15-20 with Swashbuckler class from The Tome of Secrets. With a keen rapier a 16th level swashbuckler would have a critical range of 13-20 with his Improved mark ability.
Where's that at? Is it PF or 3.5?
I know Tome of Battle, and Tome of Magic, but never heard of ToS.
Any chance of a link?
Tanis, Tome of Secrets is an optional addendum for Pathfinder. Here's the link http://paizo.com/store/byCompany/a/adamantEntertainment/pathfinderRPG/v5748 btpy89n5
Thanks Jonne! I tend to stay away from buying a whole lot of new books, but if i can get 13-20 crit range again, maybe re-thinking...love my swashbucklers :)
In fact, the 16th level Swashbuckler with a keen rapier has a threat range of 11-20.
Improved mark gives the rapier a +2 threat range. So a base 16-20
20 becomes 19-20
19-20 becomes 17-20
18-20 becomes 15-20
17-20 becomes 13-20
16-20 becomes 11-20
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grr, I wish I had that book right now. It's hard trying to pick up on issues with second hand info :(
How is the improved mark ability worded? If it just adds +2 to the weapons base threat range, then you have to deal with timing calculations.
Fun math time.
Keen doubles the weapons threat range.
Rapier 18-20
+2 improved mark
16-20
keen
11-20
Rapier 18-20
keen
15-20
improved mark
13-20
But... that's unpossible!
So the question becomes whether keen affects improved mark. If improved mark specifically affects the BASE threat range, then keen or imp. crit would I think push it to 11-20. Again, this is without the book, just what has been said on thread about it.
I'm trying to decide whether it's worth tossing down 10 bucks for the pdf. However, the comments about all the errors and missing info in the book aren't exactly making me excited ;p
The basic idea for threat ranges is that nothing can ever expand the range beyond the 15–20 range. We haven't, to my knowledge, introduced any official effects that break this barrier yet, and I'm pretty sure we don't intend to.
I'm totally behind JJ on this one. It gets VERY ugly if not handled well.
grr, I wish I had that book right now. It's hard trying to pick up on issues with second hand info :(
How is the improved mark ability worded? If it just adds +2 to the weapons base threat range, then you have to deal with timing calculations.
Fun math time.
Keen doubles the weapons threat range.
Rapier 18-20
+2 improved mark
16-20
keen
11-20Rapier 18-20
keen
15-20
improved mark
13-20But... that's unpossible!
So the question becomes whether keen affects improved mark. If improved mark specifically affects the BASE threat range, then keen or imp. crit would I think push it to 11-20. Again, this is without the book, just what has been said on thread about it.
I'm trying to decide whether it's worth tossing down 10 bucks for the pdf. However, the comments about all the errors and missing info in the book aren't exactly making me excited ;p
This has nothing to do with the books... but I would say that a keen rapier and improved mark wouldn't stack. It doesn't make sense to me that a keen rapier would be 15-20 in my hand and 11-20 in your hand. The improved mark ability would get "absorbed" by the keen.
Now, if your swashbuckler had improved crit and improved mark, I could get behind that being a 11-20. Your training has effected the rapier, not an enchantment.
The exact wording from the ToS is :
Find the mark : At 8 level, the swashbuckler increases his threat range by one when using any melee weapon with which he has Weapon Finesse. A weapon that would threaten a critical on 20 would now do so on a 19 or 20, and one which threatens on a 19-20 would now do so on an 18 to 20. This ability works with other abilities which increase threat range.
Improved mark : At 16th level, the swashbuckler becomes even more adept at finding marks. The threat range now improves by two when the swashbuckler uses his Find the mark ability.
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Thanks Krimson for ending this flamewar before it begun. ^^
There has been a discussion of Finding the Mark and Improved Mark in the past and the final concensus was:
1)It stacks with keen/or improved critical
2)But keen/or improved critical doesn't stack with Improved mark. What I mean with this, is that you do not double the bonus from the Improved mark in any case. It's like calculating damage on a critical hit and adding sneak attack dice after everything else to the pool
3)Therefore maximum critical threat range with a keen rapier would be:
Base range(18-20)*Keen(2)+Improved Mark(2)=13-20
This has nothing to do with the books... but I would say that a keen rapier and improved mark wouldn't stack. It doesn't make sense to me that a keen rapier would be 15-20 in my hand and 11-20 in your hand. The improved mark ability would get "absorbed" by the keen.
Now, if your swashbuckler had improved crit and improved mark, I could get behind that being a 11-20. Your training has effected the rapier, not an enchantment.
Why doesn't it make sense that a weapon has a different crit range in different hands? If i have Imp. Crit. and you don't, won't the crit range be different? Not really understanding your point.
As to whether a rapier wielding swashbuckler can break the 15-20 rule(which i wasn't aware of and can't find a reference to)
: a rapier has a crit range of 18-20;
if i have Imp. Critical or a keen rapier - 15-20;
if i have Imp. Mark - 13-20.
If it was gonna happen you should apply the Imp. Mark last IMHO.
Going by what JJ said, that can't happen. What's the deal then?
If this is an official sourcebook, we've obviously got a problem.
This has nothing to do with the books... but I would say that a keen rapier and improved mark wouldn't stack. It doesn't make sense to me that a keen rapier would be 15-20 in my hand and 11-20 in your hand. The improved mark ability would get "absorbed" by the keen.
Now, if your swashbuckler had improved crit and improved mark, I could get behind that being a 11-20. Your training has effected the rapier, not an enchantment.
Why doesn't it make sense that a weapon has a different crit range in different hands? If i have Imp. Crit. and you don't, won't the crit range be different? Not really understanding your point.
As to whether a rapier wielding swashbuckler can break the 15-20 rule(which i wasn't aware of and can't find a reference to)
: a rapier has a crit range of 18-20;
if i have Imp. Critical or a keen rapier - 15-20;
if i have Imp. Mark - 13-20.
If it was gonna happen you should apply the Imp. Mark last IMHO.Going by what JJ said, that can't happen. What's the deal then?
If this is an official sourcebook, we've obviously got a problem.
Oh it was just my opinion, probably should have just kept it to myself.
I don't think swashbuckler is a pathfinder class. As a pathfinder design goal, they don't want to exceed the 15-20 crit range as an internal rule, be it by enchantments or abilities.
You're cool Drone, i was just arguing RAW, not knocking your opinion.
If this book is PF, then isn't any class in it a PF class?
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Hmm... that's getting into Core VS Splat books area.
The Tome of Secrets is a splat book designed to be compatible with the pathfinder core rulebook.
It's about as core as complete adventurer or rokagun was for WOTC's PHB and DMG game set.
So you've got the same potential problems as with any splat book. The third party publisher tries to make the material enticing within the limitations of the game, messes up on some of the more subtle rule mechanics, and generally adds things that are comparable to, or more powerful than, the original book series.
The stacking ability seems to me to be a simple, and easily correctable, error on the part of Cubicle 7.
However, if it's not meant to stack with improved critical, then it is kind of useless.
The exact wording from the ToS is :
[b]Find the mark : This ability works with other abilities which increase threat range. QUOTE]it says it does stack with IC.
but regardless, if its splat then damn. thanks for the clarification.
I disagree. Since Complete adventure was made by WoTC.
Being made by wotc doesn't really mean anything. They did their share of crap and their share of overpowered stuff.
The Tome of Secrets has the problem that it was made with beta rules in mind. That shows in at least one place (the warlock class they did makes absolutely no sense with the final version of Pathfinder rules).
Forget all that talk. If you want a decent crit range, get a Real Katana. They are 2d20(1-20/x10) of course. ;-)
The basic idea for threat ranges is that nothing can ever expand the range beyond the 15–20 range. We haven't, to my knowledge, introduced any official effects that break this barrier yet, and I'm pretty sure we don't intend to.I'm totally behind JJ on this one. It gets VERY ugly if not handled well.
Agreed. 15-20* should be the biggest possible range. Even that is quite nasty already.
*15-20/x2, mind you, or x3 in near-epic situations like Fighter 20. If you want x3 before that, 17-20 (19-20/3x plus keen or improved critical) is already pushing it. x4 should only be possible with a flat 20 (or 19-20 with keen), and everything beyond x4 is resolved solely to 20th-level fighters and things more powerful than that.
Also remember that even if your threat range was 11-20 doesn't mean you -hit- with that 11 you rolled. If you still don't hit, you don't crit. Only natural 20s are auto hits. That's why I allow Improved Critical and Keen to stack in my games. It's not (usually) as unbalanced as it may seem at first glance.
Also remember that even if your threat range was 11-20 doesn't mean you -hit- with that 11 you rolled. If you still don't hit, you don't crit. Only natural 20s are auto hits. That's why I allow Improved Critical and Keen to stack in my games. It's not (usually) as unbalanced as it may seem at first glance.
I made my GM cry without the stacking.
Considering they added a half dozen condition effects attached to crits occuring, I'd be wary of expanding any critical range in this game.
Crits were good when they were double/triple damage.
If you can cause bleeding/blind/nauseated/stunned effects on half your attack rolls.. this might be beyond the DMs comfort zone.
It'd suck to let something go for 15 levels and then suddenly the Fighter picks up three feats and he's Stunning and Blinding people left and right... forcing the decision "Do I make him upset and take it away, or do I now have to do the balancing act of 'make things challenging without nerfing him every combat'."
Actually, in The Slumbering Tsar, there's a prestige class that allows a creepy over powered critical threat range. Let's summarize how:
At 6th Level, a Justicar of Muir gains this ability:
Scourge of Evil:
-----This ability grants the Justicar a divine +1 bonus for attack and damage against evil creatures. It also doubles the critical threat range of the weapon the Justicar uses against such foes. This ability stacks with the "Improved Critical" Feat or the "Keen" weapon quality.
At 10th Level, a Justicar of Muir gains this ability
Demon-bane:
-----This ability doubles the critical threat range of the weapon used by the Justicar against evil undead and evil outsiders. This ability stacks with both the "Scourge of Evil" ability and either the "Improved Critical" feat or the "Keen" weapon quality.
So there you go, let's say your Justicar uses a Bastard Sword against a demon (evil outsider):
-----the normal critical threat range is 19-20 (Range =2)
You double it with Sourge of Evil
-----the critical threat range becomes 17-20 (Range =4)
You double it again with Demon-bane
-----the critical threat range becomes 13-20 (Range =8)
You still can double this with "Keen" or "Improved Critical"
-----the critical threat range becomes 5-20 (Range =16) (Blastin'!!)
Of course, like Dork Lord said, this doesn't mean you automaticaly touch you opponent:
Also remember that even if your threat range was 11-20 doesn't mean you -hit- with that 11 you rolled. If you still don't hit, you don't crit. Only natural 20s are auto hits. That's why I allow Improved Critical and Keen to stack in my games. It's not (usually) as unbalanced as it may seem at first glance.
but still... it pretty much means that if you touch, the damage will almost always be critical.
If you gonna necro up a thread from allmoat six years ago in the rules section you should avoid bringing rules from a 3rd party.Tsar is not from paizo.
As for best crit range. While most can only get to 15-20 ,the inspired blade (swashbacler archtype) get to actuly lower it by one to 14-20 but only as a level 20 highpoint.by then he should also have auto confirm if im not wrong.
I now it seams odd that I'm asking this here but it's the best my searching can yeld now the on to the question. What are possible enchantments that add critical rage that work on a bow? And if possible can you also list any spells or gear that also will widen the threat rage. And if you could be so kind as to include the damage side of criticals too... and just to be clear it's for an epic/mythic campaign and most of my stats are 30 or higher wis is 20 and it's a lvl 20 10 lvl are sorcerer and 10 are dragon disciple thanks
For an archer get bracers of falcons aim, and your done.
For a bow there isn't anything useful to really widen your critical threat range anymore. Keen doesn't work because it's not a melee weapon. Improved Critical works, but it only goes from 20 to 19-20, which isn't worth it IMO. And bracer's of falcon's aim was changed so it's no longer a worthwhile item to have for an archer.
When were Bracers of Falcon's Aim changed?
I don't see a FAQ and Ultimate Equipment on the PRD stills lists nothing about daily uses
Is it in the errata for the second printing of UE, which isn't up on the PRD yet?
Official pathfinder material. Inspired Blade Archetype for swashbuckler can get to 14-20 with a rapier only.
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So, an interesting point not mentioned is that re-rolls and those abilities that let you roll multiple dice, while not technically increasing crit range, do increase the odds of a critical hit.
With Improved Critical, a Katana has a crit range 15-20, or 1/4 of all swings are critical hits. Add a single re-roll, and now the odds 3/8, which is effectively a crit range of 12.5-20.
Some who's better at math could get you better numbers on the best effective crit range possible. Not me.
Anyway, any melee character with a scimitar can get a crit on 15-20 (be it with feat or keen weapon). Combined with having 7-8 attacks at level 16 that is enough, especially when you are at the receiving end ;)
