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I know that this is supposed to be a sandbox type-adventure, but it seems to me that this is truly, as james put it in the forward, "adventure lots of little paths." Aside from exploration duties, the only cohesive storyline is the Stag Lord and his bandits...and you first encounter them at level 1, have some blank space where you're wandering around, then re-encounter at level 3-4. The stuff in the other grids is interesting, but it doesn't seem very cohesive.
I kind of liken it to going into a movie expecting it to be 2 hours long and, while it is, only the first and last 20 min relate to the main storyline for the movie...the other 1h20min might relate tangentially, but it's not exactly the movie you thought you were going to see.
Anybody else feel this way or am I the sole party-pooper?
I think it works. In shows, even in the Simpsons, there are commonly a few subplots to be encountered that are running alongside the main storyline. (In the simpsons there are 3 segments- a subplot, then the main story and the wrap of the subplot).
Here, in Kingmaker there are lots of little inter-connections going on with the various encounters and you can always flesh any one thing out to make it more story-integrated if you like.
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There are always ways to add a bit more interconnection and "story" if you want.
In this thread below at Paizo, I added a few extra encounters... at latest count I added 3 encounters and 4 events that are based on pre-existing details in the setting. More comments might encourage me to post up some other ideas I have that are currently in outline form:
http://paizo.com/paizo/messageboards/paizoPublishing/pathfinder/adventurePa th/kingmaker/kingmakerExpansionFillingThingsOut
I think to some degree the additions that I made at the link above, and any ones that you might put in yourself could make things a bit more cohesive and may help with your story-plotting.
Anyways, the story is about the PCs, so whatever they do can contribute to a strong "arc" for the tale. Latch on to whatever they think is the most interesting thing about the area- which Paizo thinks is the Stag Lord. Basically have them gather their forces and allies and equipment in preparing to assault the Stag Lord. Maybe drop a few messages, notes, or hints relating to his plans along the way-- add a few allies they might want to recruit.
I think one thing that the story was lacking was interaction with random hunters in the area who could tell you more about the stag lord. In my encounters I tried to add a bit about those people. It felt to me like Kingmaker was good, but that it could have used another 6 pages or so developing the sense of dread that leads up to the eventual encounter. (Maybe cut the 4 pages of ads in the back of the magazine-- I don't quite see how all 4 pages of ads were needed such as the two-paged catalog... couldn't at least one go by the wayside?) Perhaps just try to relate everything to the stag lord's tentacles and put hints about his negative influence by tweaking the encounters, like the encounter with the kobolds and mites is already to some degree influenced by the stag lord's actions--you could play this up a bit more.
Best,
LD
I know that this is supposed to be a sandbox type-adventure, but it seems to me that this is truly, as james put it in the forward, "adventure lots of little paths." Aside from exploration duties, the only cohesive storyline is the Stag Lord and his bandits...and you first encounter them at level 1, have some blank space where you're wandering around, then re-encounter at level 3-4. The stuff in the other grids is interesting, but it doesn't seem very cohesive.
I kind of liken it to going into a movie expecting it to be 2 hours long and, while it is, only the first and last 20 min relate to the main storyline for the movie...the other 1h20min might relate tangentially, but it's not exactly the movie you thought you were going to see.
Anybody else feel this way or am I the sole party-pooper?
The main goals are exploring the entire region, and taking care of the stag lord. The rest of the exploring can be done in book 2, but it is recommended that it get done in book one. I don't think its to open, since you do have two main points. Anything else is just potential side stories if the PC's wish to go that route.
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The main goals are exploring the entire region, and taking care of the stag lord. The rest of the exploring can be done in book 2, but it is recommended that it get done in book one. I don't think its to open, since you do have two main points. Anything else is just potential side stories if the PC's wish to go that route.I know that this is supposed to be a sandbox type-adventure, but it seems to me that this is truly, as james put it in the forward, "adventure lots of little paths." Aside from exploration duties, the only cohesive storyline is the Stag Lord and his bandits...and you first encounter them at level 1, have some blank space where you're wandering around, then re-encounter at level 3-4. The stuff in the other grids is interesting, but it doesn't seem very cohesive.
I kind of liken it to going into a movie expecting it to be 2 hours long and, while it is, only the first and last 20 min relate to the main storyline for the movie...the other 1h20min might relate tangentially, but it's not exactly the movie you thought you were going to see.
Anybody else feel this way or am I the sole party-pooper?
OK maybe i worded that incorrectly...it just seems like the exploring aspect is just, well boring. You have random encounters in the unoccupied hexes, and several of them have mini-quests, but the quests are disjointed and don't seem to have much to do with the Kingmaker storyline...now this may change in the future APs, but this seems like alot of setup work...maybe it's just my adult ADD kickin in, but it doesn't grab my attention enough for the "well you'll find out what that means later." line to hold me over.
OK maybe i worded that incorrectly...it just seems like the exploring aspect is just, well boring. You have random encounters in the unoccupied hexes, and several of them have mini-quests, but the quests are disjointed and don't seem to have much to do with the Kingmaker storyline...now this may change in the future APs, but this seems like alot of setup work...maybe it's just my adult ADD kickin in, but it doesn't grab my attention enough for the "well you'll find out what that means later." line to hold me over.The main goals are exploring the entire region, and taking care of the stag lord. The rest of the exploring can be done in book 2, but it is recommended that it get done in book one. I don't think its to open, since you do have two main points. Anything else is just potential side stories if the PC's wish to go that route.I know that this is supposed to be a sandbox type-adventure, but it seems to me that this is truly, as james put it in the forward, "adventure lots of little paths." Aside from exploration duties, the only cohesive storyline is the Stag Lord and his bandits...and you first encounter them at level 1, have some blank space where you're wandering around, then re-encounter at level 3-4. The stuff in the other grids is interesting, but it doesn't seem very cohesive.
I kind of liken it to going into a movie expecting it to be 2 hours long and, while it is, only the first and last 20 min relate to the main storyline for the movie...the other 1h20min might relate tangentially, but it's not exactly the movie you thought you were going to see.
Anybody else feel this way or am I the sole party-pooper?
Side quest, which is all the miniquest are don't always have anything to do with the main story. I have used them at times just to change pace.
Just because we don't see a connection now, that does not mean none of them will matter later on. I don't think any of them are necessary, but some NPC may remember what the PC's did for him earlier and help the PC's out.I will say that I don't think this module is for everyone. I have never DM'd or played anything like it before. I am curious to see how it plays out though.
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Side quest, which is all the miniquest are don't always have anything to do with the main story. I have used them at times just to change pace.
Just because we don't see a connection now, that does not mean none of them will matter later on. I don't think any of them are necessary, but some NPC may remember what the PC's did for him earlier and help the PC's out.
I will say that I don't think this module is for everyone. I have never DM'd or played anything like it before. I am curious to see how it plays out though.
I have no doubt that these will come into play at some point later on down the line, but this whole first module, to me, seems a bit convoluted...i know some of the encounters have a bit of foreshadowing (on the GM side of things at least) but no real way that you could communicate that to players without an OOC "heads up." This is just my 2cp...just wanted to see if anybody else had similar thoughts.
I think this kind of AP is going to take a little more work on the GM's part. Also, it may not be for everybody.
Personally, I love the amount of freedom it provides, and my group views the lack of restriction as a huge opportunity. Other groups that need more hand holding or don't really want all that freedom may not enjoy this campaign.
Creative Director
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It'll certainly be interesting to see how, in the end, people react to Kingmaker. It's got a storyline in there, but as the OP noted it's not the central focus of the campaign. We DO try to inject additional stories into the sandbox nature of the game, though, which is why there's stuff like...
People have been clamoring for this type of adventure path for a long time though. And I am a little nervous that it's going to be TOO open for our established adventure path customers. Which is why we decided to do Kingmaker in the early part of the year rather than the latter part, when we launch "safer" and more traditional campaigns at Gen Con.
So yeah... I'm eager to see how folks respond to Kingmaker.
I have no doubt that these will come into play at some point later on down the line, but this whole first module, to me, seems a bit convoluted...i know some of the encounters have a bit of foreshadowing (on the GM side of things at least) but no real way that you could communicate that to players without an OOC "heads up." This is just my 2cp...just wanted to see if anybody else had similar thoughts.
No, never give the players an OOC heads up. Just as in real life, you don't know what will be important or not important until it becomes so.
As a kid, did a bully pick on young Billy Gates, only to discover that Bill Gates now holds the contract for future employment? Did a college student who plagarized a paper know that when he later ran for public office, people would dig up that paper and hold him accountable? Did you always treat your crazy Aunt (the one with twenty cats) with respect and dignity, and end up with a big inheiritence when she passed?
Give the players enough rope to either hang themselves or build themselves a bridge.
As for the side quests, the mechanical reason those are there is because it's hard for level 1 PCs to survive the wilds of the River Kingdoms. The adventure has to provide some framework to get the characters up to an appropriate level.
If you have other adventures, run those instead or in addition to the AP quests. (As I don't use the XP system, I'm totally gonna throw out some additional stuff, because there's some stuff I really wanna run.)
This is more of a "sandbox" campaign, with no straightforward story arc (yet). The beginning is usually a little more convoluted, because there isn't a set "go here, then go there, and wind up here" pattern that is typical with adventures or other APs.
Edit: what James said. Good stuff there.
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Creative Director
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It's also worth pointing out that the really HEAVY exploration parts of this AP are parts 1 and 2. Each of the latter adventures retain the exploration element, but it's toned down a bit to make room for stronger individual storylines for each region. Partially because by the third adventure simple exploration probably WILL start to get old, but mostly because by the 3rd adventure PCs have fly and increasingly more spells that will make exploration a LOT easier, and so the adventures don't have to be so focused on that aspect.
...the really HEAVY exploration parts of this AP are parts 1 and 2. Each of the latter adventures retain the exploration element, but it's toned down a bit to make room for stronger individual storylines....
Ditto that. I wrote part 4, and I know mine has sandbox-y elements in it, but I'm a storytelling GM and designer by nature. So, there's an equal amount of storyline running through my sandbox. And, some of the scripted "exploration" encounters (as opposed to the wandering monster variety) do have an integral part to contribute to the overarching plot. Meanwhile, some are just sub-plots in and of themselves. Thus, I'm really interested in seeing how it plays out for people.
Also, ironically enough, my next assignment is the capstone adventure for an entire AP, so the story takes center stage in that one. Though, I've been contemplating a couple of sandbox ideas I could use in it, as well. All in all, it's a lot of fun to explore the different ways of designing these adventures. Hopefully, that same level of fun translates to the playing tables, as well.
The key to running a 'sandbox' campaign is deciding how it all relates.
There is the overall arc. Look at the subplots and decide if the overall story has significance (or not)to the subplots and vice versa.
Cases in point. The dead trapper ties to the fey but one can foreshadow the mite / kobold conflict by having a dead kobold or mite in one of the traps.
The cave with the gold vein could have bandit encampment in it with the bandits attempting to mine it or the kobolds. Or have bodies of bandits and kobolds in the area as the result of the 'claim jumping' by one side or the other.
What this does is make the 'pieces' in the sandbox seem less independent pieces and more like pieces of a jigsaw in which the players can't see the whole picture yet but can deduce something about what is going on.
I switched out the barbarian body for a dead Red Mantis assassin. It doesn't relate in any way but it does give that 'WTF' moment for players in which they encounter the unexpected and then try to figure if it means something .... or not.
Doing things like this makes the sandbox seem more dynamic and less static set pieces of unrelated 'quests in waiting'
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The key to running a 'sandbox' campaign is deciding how it all relates.
There is the overall arc. Look at the subplots and decide if the overall story has significance (or not)to the subplots and vice versa.
Cases in point. The dead trapper ties to the fey but one can foreshadow the mite / kobold conflict by having a dead kobold or mite in one of the traps.
The cave with the gold vein could have bandit encampment in it with the bandits attempting to mine it or the kobolds. Or have bodies of bandits and kobolds in the area as the result of the 'claim jumping' by one side or the other.
What this does is make the 'pieces' in the sandbox seem less independent pieces and more like pieces of a jigsaw in which the players can't see the whole picture yet but can deduce something about what is going on.
I switched out the barbarian body for a dead Red Mantis assassin. It doesn't relate in any way but it does give that 'WTF' moment for players in which they encounter the unexpected and then try to figure if it means something .... or not.
Doing things like this makes the sandbox seem more dynamic and less static set pieces of unrelated 'quests in waiting'
Good idears!!
Heya Black Moria, those are really good ideas. Any chance that you could cross-post them here where I similarly attempted to interweave some aspects of the adventure: Kingmaker Expansion (I figure placing all ideas like this in one place might be useful for other GMs)
Thanks.
People have been clamoring for this type of adventure path for a long time though. And I am a little nervous that it's going to be TOO open for our established adventure path customers. Which is why we decided to do Kingmaker in the early part of the year rather than the latter part, when we launch "safer" and more traditional campaigns at Gen Con.
Which have been, for the record:
- Rise of the Runelords (okay, that's 'safer')- Second Darkness (urgh...)
- Council of Thieves (hrmm...)
Compared to:
- Curse of the Crimson Throne (woo)
- Legacy of Fire (woo woo!)
- Kingmaker (and a yay!)
Seeing the difference between the (IMO) comparatively weaker Gencon releases and the 'early part of the year' releases, I'm sure people can imagine how well I, for one, hope Kingmaker does.
Contributor, RPG Superstar 2008 Top 4, Legendary Games
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...the really HEAVY exploration parts of this AP are parts 1 and 2. Each of the latter adventures retain the exploration element, but it's toned down a bit to make room for stronger individual storylines....Ditto that. I wrote part 4, and I know mine has sandbox-y elements in it, but I'm a storytelling GM and designer by nature. So, there's an equal amount of storyline running through my sandbox. And, some of the scripted "exploration" encounters (as opposed to the wandering monster variety) do have an integral part to contribute to the overarching plot. Meanwhile, some are just sub-plots in and of themselves. Thus, I'm really interested in seeing how it plays out for people.
Also, ironically enough, my next assignment is the capstone adventure for an entire AP, so the story takes center stage in that one. Though, I've been contemplating a couple of sandbox ideas I could use in it, as well. All in all, it's a lot of fun to explore the different ways of designing these adventures. Hopefully, that same level of fun translates to the playing tables, as well.
In turn, I wrote #5 for Kingmaker, and its probably the turning point between exploration/sandbox and plot/event-driven campaign. There is still open-ended stuff to do, but it is focused around a specific event rather than exploring/colonizing/pacifying a large area, and once certain things start happening... well, the adventure is called War of the River Kings, so you can use your masterwork detective skills to infer that this %^&*() is about to start gettin' medieval by the end of #5. KM #6 then dials that up to 11 in the finale.
@James: If it's any consolation I'd like to note that I thought I would not be interested in KM in the least. Now that I have it and have read it I am actually pretty excited...to the point that I wish I wasn't in the middle of running RotR at the moment. I may not run it as the next item on my agenda but I will, at the very least, do something similar.
M
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I think I understand the OPs concerns.
I was thoroughly intrigued and excited about this AP when it was advertised - it seemed right up our alley.
Then I have to say I was a bit overwhelmed by the amount of non-linear aspects to KM1. Or underwhelmed I should say by the content. Specifically, like the OP said, it seemed like just a loose associated group of random encounter cards selected from a deck. As DM with a full-plate in my personal life (wife and kids, mortgage and full-time career), having time to prepare campaigns is a thing of the past, and so I have relied heavily on pre-written modules/campaigns with the narrative etc, already penned by professional writers. The myriad number of hex-plotted encounters have no such preparation.
I had a brief fear of playing a game that went something like:
DM: "You explore this region. you find a crack in the rock. Rappelling down, you find an untapped gold mine. With proper construction you can make this into a mine for profit. Which hex do you want to go to now?..... Okay exploring this hex, you find a big dead tree in the shape of a claw. (rolls search check) Okay you find a hidden spot under a root and find...... Now which hex do you want to go to...?"
Now I know this represents only its most basic and fundamental level - but without a lot of preparation, work on the DMs part to somehow spice up these encounters, and link things together, it would just be a card-game, going through one hex after another without a well-defined adventure aside from the choice bits like the mite lair that has definition to it.
I was struggling with whether or not I wanted to dedicate myself to this path requiring a due diligence or cancel the rest of the path - only out of fear that I wouldn't and couldn't do it justice; needing to rely quite heavily on pre-written narratives to makes the experience noteworthy.
This is not a judgement on the overall work so far, as it does live up to the Paizo standard of excellence overall - it just didn't fit my needs individually - - and think my impression is what the OP was reflecting. And furthermore, concerned that 6 installments of such traipsing would get unbearably old - if that was in fact going to be the consistent model for the campaign.
James' comment that he made a few posts back indicating their pragmatism and wisdom that it would in fact get tedious and monotonous by the 3rd issue and has a transition in style was enough for me to stay the course and do what I can to add filler to the great foundation that Paizo has alreayd provided.
I guess my constructive criticism would then have been that it would be more robust if the said hex-plot encounters actually carried with them a bit of choice narrative to read aloud to players or provide some tips to filling out such encounters. I see there's a great amount of detail and rule expansions for the expansions of the kingdom etc, but I think where I would struggle the most is taking a hex containing the mine and actually making it interesting enough to spend more than just a cursory 2 minute summation of the explore hex and move on to the next.
The threads I've seen on here have been a great deal of help already in regards to adding additional subplots, and tying things together.
Thanks to all who have contributed.
Robert
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Contributor, RPG Superstar 2008 Top 4, Legendary Games
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One trick I used to incite the players to explore around the area was the "wolf hunt." One of the mini-quests in KM 1 or 2 (actually I think it IS in #2, so you'll be able to see it soon) involves a particularly notorious pack of wolves and their infamous snarly pack leader. Give the PCs some locations of where the wolves are striking, and have them track/hunt the wolves, in the process moving around into several hexes. As it turned out, they chased the wolves down in the hex that contained the "claw tree" and the gold deposit (which I had them discover through finding gold residue in a streambed as they were following the wolves' trail) but you could just as well lead them into areas where the wolves had killed some other creatures (if, say, you didn't want to run a particular encounter, the wolves done ate em up and left em dead!) or led them through places you want them to go.
It's an idea that you might try; I found it worked very well with my PCs.
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There's a lot of great advice about running a Sandbox style game and gameplay vs story HERE.
An important part of the Sandbox campaign is that the GM isn't spoonfeeding bits of story to the players between action scenes (think Final Fantasy or Curse of the Crimson Throne). I like Kingmaker because the players are figuring out the story on their own with the bits that they find (dead bodies, maps etc). Throwing in more details gives the players more to work with.
Kingmaker isn't the story of a villain that gets thwarted by meddlesome heroes. It's the story of heroes that enact change on the world.
That's a key difference for this campaign. Rather than the heroes defending the Status Quo or restoring the world to balance (RotRL and Second Darkness represent the former, Curse of the Crimson Throne and Council of Thieves in the latter), the PCs are literally changing the world. Everything that happens is the player's story and that's why I love this campaign.
Don't worry about story, the narrative isn't something the PCs discover, it's everything the PCs DO. They are adventurers, by definition everything they do is an adventure.
Hopefully you don't ever let it fall to the point where it becomes: "You repel down a cavern and discover a gold vein" which hex would you like to explore next? If there hasn't been much action yet throw some inclement weather into that scene. If there's been too much action then a relatively peaceful scene (with some climb checks etc) would be a welcome change of pace.
Use the random encounters. If you roll 1d6 wolves, instead of having a straight fight, have the wolves track the PCs. Howling to each other every night, putting the PCs on edge, or letting them go on the offensive as they please.
I love Baldur's Gate to death (my favourite game ever), but I've never finished any Baldur's Gate game. I just loved exploring the world, finishing side-quests etc. I have side-quest OCD though and will keep looking for sidequests until they're all exhausted (I'm too terrified of hitting a point of no return and leaving plot threads open).
Hopefully your players are the same. Finding a dead kobold in some traps will hopefully give them incentive to investigate the Kobold/Mite war. Finding a bandit gored to death, will get them boar hunting.
I'm going to be implementing achievements (ala Legacy of Fire) for each completed quest (little cards to represent their achievements, along with epithets they can add to their names).
For example eventually Valeros becomes:
The players shouldn't be motivated by threats to the status quo, but by the fortune and glory of daring the dangerous.
That was a lot of typing... I hope it's helpful.
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Creative Director
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I haven't worked out yet whether there will be enough evocative stuff to do in this AP to work out well for me. To be honest, I think I would have preferred it if there were more tombs and small site-based 'dungeons' to explore. I'm considering completely ditching the mites and kobolds (since they don't seem too linked to other stuff) and putting some of my own stuff instead.
There'll be PLENTY of tombs and sites to explore in the volumes to come, never fear!
Look on the bright side. If you have some old Dungeon Magazines lying around, you probably have a lot of different side treks & small adventures that just were't big enough to run by themselves. Now you may be able to work them in. You may have ideas from WotC old Adventure Archive. There are plenty of short adventures for 3/3.5e there that can give you ideas. Check out their Vicious Venues too.
One thought:
The other AP's have taken great pains to give the PC's hooks to work into what they are, Kingmaker does the exact opposite -- it asks the players for plot hooks the GM can use to draw them in.
This is a case where you want to encourage your players to do a lot of the work for you. Have them give you NPCs to place in it, or things that they want to work towards too.
In a sandbox the DM is actually more of a player than in any other campaign -- the players are more of the designers and should have a more "center stage" appearance in the feel of the game -- after all they are making more of the decisions about how they are going to do things and when and where. So let them, just have some extra stuff on the side to throw into what they are doing.
The key is to motivate the players with what they give you...
(my opinion at least)
Man, I actually loved the mites vs kobolds thing. I like when you can do non-standard stuff in D&D...getting on the good side of a kobold tribe is definitely non-standard.
I'm playing in a game that started with Crypt of the Everflame and is merging into some sort of take on Red Hand of Doom. We ran into a tribe of goblins that had been taken over by some hobgoblin/bugbear soldier types and, instead of slaying the goblins and taking their gear (yech!), my paladin (Iomedae) and the rest of the group managed to liberate them (with only a couple of casualties on the goblin side) and convert their nascent sun-worship into a budding love of the goddess Sarenrae. I think they'll play a part in the story to come...if I know the DM, that is.
I also liked the fey encounter (the fairy dragon and grig girl-bug thingie).
Tombs and dungeons are good too, of course.
M
back in 2nd edition days, i took a group of players who had been playing for a while and were in a rut with dungeon crawls. I had them create new characters and guided them towards an area that was mostly uncivilized. There were a few small towns, and plenty of lizard-men, yun-ti, dragons. It was a land that no one had bothered to claim because it was just too much work, poisonous snakes in all the rivers, lizard-men in the small swamps and dragons in the big ones. Yun-ti in the mountains and marauding bandits in the planes. They eagerly grabbed onto the idea of having their own kingdom and the 1st thing they wanted to do was explore. Not just to slay lizard-men or clear out a cave of yun-ti but to get a feel for what would become their kingdom. Where could they build a fort or castle? Where would the wizard build his tower? Who could they recruit as followers or at the very least allies? What areas were best for farms, or mining? Where there any natural resources that near by areas were lacking?
This type of campaign might not be for new DM's or new players but a great change of pace for experienced groups. Encourage players to make each encounter meaningful, even if it has nothing to do with the main story. Good role playing and use of skills could allow a creative group to find strange allies or useful items and resources that even the designers did not necessarily consider or think anyone would ever try.
kingmaker is the 1st thing in years to make me this excited about DM'ing a game. Luckily I'll be playing through it a few months ahead of the group I'll be DM'ing to be more familiar with not only the story but how payers might think and react to each situation.
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CEO
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Don't worry about story, the narrative isn't something the PCs discover, it's everything the PCs DO. They are adventurers, by definition everything they do is an adventure.
Spot on! In most of our APs, the characters are interacting with a story that goes on whether they do or not. In Kingmaker, the characters ARE the story. They are building a kingdom and the plot points are the world interacting with THEIR story, not the other way around. This kind of AP isn't for everyone, but I can tell you that I am SOOOOOO excited about starting this campaign next.
I think the really interesting aspect of this AP will be how different the campaigns of each group play out, since the characters will all be different, and thus the main stories will be different. It is almost like an improve theater where different groups are given the same group of stories elements and told to improvise a story out of them. The end results could be very different. Which fascinates me to no end!
-Lisa
I for one think it's a perfect balance of openness. It won't be to everyone's taste, but that's ok. There are 5 other adventure paths if you want something more linear. I really like the modularity of the exploration. If you don't like mites, replace them with goblins or pugsampis. I'm tempted to take the caverns of chaos and split them up into the smaller sub caves and sprinkle them around. I see this adventure path as a great toolkit and blueprint for a sand box game. It won't please everyone, but it will certainly make some of us very happy.
I kind of liken it to going into a movie expecting it to be 2 hours long and, while it is, only the first and last 20 min relate to the main storyline for the movie...the other 1h20min might relate tangentially, but it's not exactly the movie you thought you were going to see.
But then it's an adventure module and not a movie, and from the announcements, Stolen Land is just about exactly what I was expecting.
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This thread gave me a lot of new ideas to "fill" my upcoming Kingmaker campaign. Thanx for that!
I was a bit sceptic when I first heard about Kingmaker and thought, that this AP will be not for me. But now, that I've read part 1 - boy, I can't wait to get the next part, and start DMing it once I have all 6.
Finally (it seems for me at least), I have an AP where I can use all that stuff from the other products of Paizo.
I plan on getting some pathfinders into the fray, use Conquest of the Bloodsworn Vale, where
I will use none of the advancment tracks, rather tell my players when they level up, to get all that stuff done at the right levels.
I am very happy with Kingmaker (where I thought it would be the worst AP ever), and hope the other volumes will be as good, or even better. I really hope, that there wont be too many critics, so that we one day get another Paizo-Sandbox AP.
I think the whole dynamic is such an awesome change of pace! It probably won't be for everybody, but no adventure is for everyone.
As a side note: I had to chuckle to myself when I saw the thread subject, given the discussion that has been going on since the beginning of the APs.
This thread gave me a lot of new ideas to "fill" my upcoming Kingmaker campaign. Thanx for that!
I was a bit sceptic when I first heard about Kingmaker and thought, that this AP will be not for me. But now, that I've read part 1 - boy, I can't wait to get the next part, and start DMing it once I have all 6.
...... maybe use Crown of the Kobold King and the old Monastery, get some more NPCs into the campaign, use stuff from the "Revisited" volumes and so on, and so on...
Might be able to use Revenge of the Kobold King in the next AP installment. Just substitute the sorcerer for the king, that is if you kill the sorecerer.
I'm a fan of all of the APs and the work that goes into them, but after reading book 1 of KS I'm thinking this is going to be my favorite.
You can't please everyone, and there's always a complaint regardless. Hearing about this AP is what got me back into gaming in general, I've been able to get a group again, and I'm taking them through my convertedish RotR. So far they love it. I'm so geeked about KS that I've been talking about it for monthes. I'm a fan of the sandbox style of play, just as long as no kitty's get to near it.
On a side note it's now causing me to subscribe to more and more items as I fall more and more in love with the PFRPG setting.
Thanks Paizo for lightening my wallet!
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Don't worry about story, the narrative isn't something the PCs discover, it's everything the PCs DO. They are adventurers, by definition everything they do is an adventure.Spot on! In most of our APs, the characters are interacting with a story that goes on whether they do or not. In Kingmaker, the characters ARE the story. They are building a kingdom and the plot points are the world interacting with THEIR story, not the other way around. This kind of AP isn't for everyone, but I can tell you that I am SOOOOOO excited about starting this campaign next.
I think the really interesting aspect of this AP will be how different the campaigns of each group play out, since the characters will all be different, and thus the main stories will be different. It is almost like an improve theater where different groups are given the same group of stories elements and told to improvise a story out of them. The end results could be very different. Which fascinates me to no end!
-Lisa
This is the AP I have been waiting for. I have read this twice already and I know this is what I wanted. I just started a Free form PF campaign. I can see now ALOT of the kingmaker series being used. We even started in the River Kingdoms without knowing where Kingmaker was focused. Pretty good omen to start out on.
The fact alone the the PC's are the story this time around has the proper feel of DnD to me.
I have not read Kinkmaker but Lilith has been raving about it alot. I am usually not a fan of AP's due to their reliance on story vs PC's. The PC's are usually drug along in a normal AP and are not encouraged to 'explore' the other potentials that they think are cool. I am a strong proponent in the sandbox style of Adventure since the story does not take place in a vac.
For me the rule is one start; something to explain why the PC's are together. Multiple middles to take into consideration what the PC's are going to do. Finally a plethora of endings to cover most of the potential paths the characters take. I do realize that this is difficult for a lot of GM's to do but the real key here is the flexability of the GM and the self confidence to let the PC's explore the world that the GM has given a framework to.
Just my thoughts.
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not since the announcement that Paizo was going to put out their own line of RPG have I been so excited about a game.
Fallout 3 came before that, so that doesn't count :D
I have plans for huge poster maps of the area, with pushpins and such for explored areas, resources, forts and traps, etc.
I will also likely have to paint all the leader-type NPC's in minis.
Freeform, with a huge area to wander around in, no real time constraints, and the 1st area map is a Flip Mat (which I bought before knowing that)? Awesome!
I can't wait to see the rest of the adventures!
-t
"Hexploration!"™
Really excited for this one. Been cramming (in-between work and my other half) for a few days to start this a week earlier (this friday night).
It'll certainly be interesting to see how, in the end, people react to Kingmaker. It's got a storyline in there, but as the OP noted it's not the central focus of the campaign. We DO try to inject additional stories into the sandbox nature of the game, though, which is why there's stuff like...
** spoiler omitted **
People have been clamoring for this type of adventure path for a long time though. And I am a little nervous that it's going to be TOO open for our established adventure path customers. Which is why we decided to do Kingmaker in the early part of the year rather than the latter part, when we launch "safer" and more traditional campaigns at Gen Con.
So yeah... I'm eager to see how folks respond to Kingmaker.
In the interests of feedback/reassurance regarding your nervousness. I'm one of the AP subscribers who is very unlikely to run this - my players are rather prone to sitting around scratching their heads wondering "But what are we SUPPOSED to do?" which is part of why I find the structure of your usual APs so ideal.
Having said that - this is without doubt the AP I have most anticipated and I havent enjoyed reading a first instalment as much as this since I discovered the Shackled City AP. Although I am sadly unlikely to ever run this path due to my players tastes - I fully expect it to become my favorite AP.
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I predict Kingmaker will be one of the best selling APs produced, almost at the same level as Rise of the Runelords. I find the internal story lines (the Kobolds and Mites, the Temple, and the Bandits) all to be awesome; they all can and will have a long term impact on the campaign as well (Kobold allies, the Helm, one of the Bandits becomiing an NPC, the beginings of a church...). It's just awesome.
Anybody else feel this way or am I the sole party-pooper?
In teaching, when the students do the work, that's when it's going well. Lecture's the backup plan or what you use when there's no other way to convey the information. The trick is that lectures feel great, because you're invested and doing things. There's only so interested the students can be however.
Do you see the analogy here? Lecture is to linear narrative as interactive class discussion is to player-generated plot. The fortunate thing? Facilitating class discussion is pretty rewarding too.
we have started playing
everyone loves it
I talked it over with my (soon to be) PCs. We've agreed to do this AP on the slow experience table (which IMO is kind of amazing since we're currently doing Curse of the Crimson Throne on fast and it seem like forever to level up to 11). They agreed to do that because I want to throw in side quests that relate to the PCs directly.
i.e. The bandits possess a letter the PCs family (indicating some kind alliance), a PC's family member shows up the castle and gives a hundred and one slights to the PC (saying that the family member is still superior to the PC), a new crime boss shows up on the scene and bribes/blackmails one of the PCs, a group of adventurers show up and trash the bar and steal from the treasury. You know, things like that.
Anybody else feel this way or am I the sole party-pooper?
No, me too. It´s exactly what I think about "Stolen Lands". It´s a pretty good adventure, but that´s it. After reading it several times, I find no encounter especially memorable. Okay, you got the Stag Lord and his cool helmet. He´s an interesting personality. But that doesn´t matter for the players. He wouldn´t tell a lot about himself before he is killed by the PCs.
Every player knows: This is the first part of an epic campaign that will bring my PC from 1st to 14th or so level. But the adventure does nothing to foreshadow coming events. The encounters are rather unspectacular.
I decided to add something: By exploring the wilderness, the PCs encounter the ghost of the unicorn before reaching its dead body. The PCs can´t really communicate with it, but the ghost could give some mysterious hints and clues and tell something about its death and the coming dangers to the region. For me it´s a proper connection to part 6, where the players finally confront Nyrissa and get the cut off horn from her lair. Finally, with this horn they are able to free the ghost of the unicorn and probably send it back to life with its body still intact.
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Contributor, RPG Superstar 2008 Top 4, Legendary Games
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Anybody else feel this way or am I the sole party-pooper?No, me too. It´s exactly what I think about "Stolen Lands". It´s a pretty good adventure, but that´s it. After reading it several times, I find no encounter especially memorable. Okay, you got the Stag Lord and his cool helmet. He´s an interesting personality. But that doesn´t matter for the players. He wouldn´t tell a lot about himself before he is killed by the PCs.
Every player knows: This is the first part of an epic campaign that will bring my PC from 1st to 14th or so level. But the adventure does nothing to foreshadow coming events. The encounters are rather unspectacular.
** spoiler omitted **
For the backstory on the Stag Lord, I actually had the PCs get a lot of it from talking to the dude in the basement...
Rather than it just being a straight-up fight, he narrated a lot of the backstory when talking about his captivity... which pretty much convinced the PCs that he was an evil nutjob too! :)
I would counsel patience on the Kingmaker storyline. Like a great campaign, the early going doesn't always make the prime storyline readily apparent right away. Give the PCs a chance to establish themselves (and their kingdom) first. Then, look for later parts of the AP to start drawing in the overarching plot.
Also, it's a sandbox. So, each GM is actually encouraged to find the parts they want to highlight, foreshadow, and/or keep around as a recurring element. It all hinges on how you want to run your Kingmaker campaign.
I would counsel patience on the Kingmaker storyline. Like a great campaign, the early going doesn't always make the prime storyline readily apparent right away.
I´m a strong believer in the quality of Paizo products. :) And I´m very much looking forward to the coming chapters of Kingmaker. One thing´s for sure: I will GM this campaign, because I like the Sandbox style and I know that my players will love it. But I still think that "Stolen Lands" is a little underwhelming. Anyway, we´ll play it. Maybe I get a different verdict when it´s played. :)
@Jason: Thanks for the advice!