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While I agree that it's threadcapping I think the whole point about the word Gish being poorly defined is relevant. Gish is... ?? MIB made a thread about this exact topic a while ago. Are we talking Eldritch Knight specific or just Arcane Warriors in general?
The biggest problem I've found with any mixed class setup is it is extremely easy to build something that is ok at a couple things but not 'good' at anything and if you aren't good at something you aren't going to shine very often in the game. The applies to Eldritch Knight, Arcane Trickster, Dragon Disciple, and nearly any other multi-class mix of stabby casting equally.
For characters that mix up stabbing and casting I've seen a few good solid options. Probably the best pure stabby/ caster I've played is the Battle Sorcerer from Unearthed Arcana. His spells known was quite limited but he kept his caster level at full and he was pretty good in melee (not in the same class as a fighter but decent). I wound up taking Abjurant Champion which is much vilified but with the battle sorcerer it made a lot more sense. I think the battle sorcerer works fairly well even without Abjurant Champion also.
Other sorts of arcane stabby casters:
My wife has been playing a summoner for some time and it's been working quite well for her. She's good enough in melee and with her bow that she doesn't feel limited by the slow spell progression. She's not tossing fireballs unless she uses UMD but it still has the feel of an arcane character.
I've played with several bard characters and if they are geared towards combat they can be pretty decent. An archer bard isn't doing the damage a dedicated archer and his casting isn't as powerful as a wizards but bards buffing abilities are awesome and after 7th level they are able to buff and attack from round one. If you don't have a lot of other characters bards aren't
For about 6 months I played an sorcerer/ ranger multi class with a custom prestige class. The character was a bit of a 5th wheel in the party and that seems to be a common theme to this type of character. His casting always lagged the primary casters and he wasn't good enough at his other abilities to really shine. I suspect if it were a smaller party and he didn't have to compete against other characters he would have felt less awkward.
Does anyone have any experiences playing with the Swiftblade prestige class?
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Does anyone have any experiences playing with the Swiftblade prestige class?
Reading over the class it looks weird and highly specialized. I wouldn't mind trying it out but I see the signs of cheese in this class. I fear that 50% blur and 50% spellproofing is too much for a class....then increased speed, spellcasting ability bonus to initiative, free spring attack, free bounding assault, swift casting of haste with haste being able to create a time stop effect, freedom of movement while hasted, the ability to change haste for yourself into an extra move or standard action, full bab, good will and reflex and the only drawbacks are 4 caster levels for all that.....
Just doesn't look balanced at all....I could be wrong though...
Thank you for a lot of very interesting responses.
I apologize for the use of the term Gish in the title, and any threadcrapping it may have lead to. What I meant was Arcane Warrior. So if you can cast arcane spells and hurt people with either melee or ranged weapons (or both), you are golden.
The whole point of this thread was to give people who like the idea of playing an arcane warrior some inspiration on how to go about it, based on actual gaming experience. But most of all, I wanted to hear people say "This character was really fun to play - here is why"
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The mixes I have seen were similarly suprisingly non-useless. I've seen many pathfinder combat Druids, dunno if you think of those as Gish or not. They also have massive flexibility in what they can do in a round; and do some pretty incredible damage (they'd do better in the DPR olympics if their animal companion was considered).For TRUE gishing, I saw the Arcane Trickster; once he got going he did some good damage, and his player had fun playing him, so that's really what matters. The current party I am running for has a 5th level character (Wizard 2 Cleric 3). For the 4 man party (which is otherwise a Fighter, a rogue, and a combat Druid), and at least for now is being better than either class individually at serving as battle support.
So looking at it and thinking about it, what happens on paper does not seem to play out in reality. Those playing these characters usually at least have (possibly the illusion?) of being as useful as their more concentrated counterparts, and are usually more fun to play. Weird huh?
This is what I'm talking about. Focusing on the fun element instead of why EK is virtually useless because you can't use your arcane strike and armored casting at the same time (although I quite agree that it would be nice if you could).
There has got to be some creative suggestions for being useful and having for the first 10 levels of your EK build.
So, I like me a good fighter/wizard, I find their offensive versatility very appealing. But I've been DM'ing for a long long time, and rarely get to play. I did have a much more "player" DM PC for my Second Darkness game though:
Remy Leroung, Half-orc Barbarian/Transmuter, N, out of Korvosa.
Tag-line: "F*** off" [actual first and last words spoken in campaign.]Quarter-orc really, not that you could tell from his looks. Dad a bit of a brute, proud of the savage traditions. Mom not really acknowledging. Far too bright to not to attend the Acadamae, far too unwelcome to stay. So he went scouting for fiends in Riddleport.
Starting out (3d6, reroll 1's, in order):
[stats stuff]** spoiler omitted **...
Remy sounds awesome. Thanks for sharing.
Does anyone have any experiences playing with the Swiftblade prestige class?
Looks like cheese to me, I would not allow it as written. But it might be ok, but thats my first thought after reading. Another example of PRC that are too good
Looks like cheese to me, I would not allow it as written. But it might be ok, but thats my first thought after reading. Another example of PRC that are too good
Does anyone have any experiences playing with the Swiftblade prestige class?
I think it could be ok but i have never seen it in practice, I have had group memebers talk about being one but no one wants to cast nothing but haste for a level to do it.
It has some good ideals but seems a bit much at times and yeah that "cast haste" all level is iffy. I myself would water down the BAB, bump HD to d8 and take out good will saves for starters, Some of the powers seem a bit much but ya do give up 5 caster level or was it 4? maybe it should be 5, but eh folks will hate any of those ideals anyhow
As for the requirement maybe always prepare a haste spell in one of your slots be a better ideal.
I love Swiftblade. It's exactly what a gish PrC should be. It's not fully caster - it loses quite a bit of spell levels, in fact. It's not fully fighter - all of it's abilities are spellcasting related. So what do you get?
A PrC built around buffing yourself and attacking the enemy, mechanically speaking.
It doesn't get level 9 spells. It doesn't get x20 power attack multiplier. But it meets both halfway in an amazing fighter/mage combination.
Oh, and please note that losing four caster levels is huge. That's not a light sacrifice, not in the slightest.
I have never seen it in action{never heard of it till the last f/m thread) All I know is my gut reaction is it needs toned down, and that haste requirement is nuts.
It's not the caster levels, which I am glad to see they tossed, to me for that kind of boost you should lose caster levels.
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The mixes I have seen were similarly suprisingly non-useless. I've seen many pathfinder combat Druids, dunno if you think of those as Gish or not. They also have massive flexibility in what they can do in a round; and do some pretty incredible damage (they'd do better in the DPR olympics if their animal companion was considered).For TRUE gishing, I saw the Arcane Trickster; once he got going he did some good damage, and his player had fun playing him, so that's really what matters. The current party I am running for has a 5th level character (Wizard 2 Cleric 3). For the 4 man party (which is otherwise a Fighter, a rogue, and a combat Druid), and at least for now is being better than either class individually at serving as battle support.
So looking at it and thinking about it, what happens on paper does not seem to play out in reality. Those playing these characters usually at least have (possibly the illusion?) of being as useful as their more concentrated counterparts, and are usually more fun to play. Weird huh?
This is what I'm talking about. Focusing on the fun element instead of why EK is virtually useless because you can't use your arcane strike and armored casting at the same time (although I quite agree that it would be nice if you could).
There has got to be some creative suggestions for being useful and having for the first 10 levels of your EK build.
I think the issue here goes beyond "fun is subjective" and right into "fun is meaningless."
Anyone can have fun. Seriously, anyone can have fun. WHich is a really cool thing! But the problem is, it's not a means of measuring anything at all. I've played characters that were absolutely terrible. Sure, I had fun, but I didn't have fun because of the character - I had fun in spite of them.
Honestly, "I had fun" isn't a complement. That's the standard. You should always have fun with a class, that's not something to brag about. If a class doesn't let you have fun, that means there's something drastically wrong.
I have never seen it in action{never heard of it till the last f/m thread) All I know is my gut reaction is it needs toned down, and that haste requirement is nuts.
It's not the caster levels, which I am glad to see they tossed, to me for that kind of boost you should lose caster levels.
Gut reactions are typically wrong. I've seen people on these forums - if not this very thread - argue with their gut reaction that natural spell wasn't ever problematic, that clerics were one of the weakest 3.5 classes, and that rogues were overpowered.
Some times they are, however to me 2 good saves full BAB, all the goodies and six levels of spells are over much YMMV as always but as it sits I would not allow it I do not think, maybe for a oneshot or something to test but not in an on going game, not as is.
Most of the players I've seen play an arcane warrior are actually just wanting some buffing to go with their melee. It's the versatility that allows them to melee while their opponent is flying or invisible or whatever that draws them in. They aren't looking to meteor swarm the world... they just want to take the frustration out of melee combat that comes in when the various enemies start getting invisibility and fly speeds.
Most of the players I've seen play an arcane warrior are actually just wanting some buffing to go with their melee. It's the versatility that allows them to melee while their opponent is flying or invisible or whatever that draws them in. They aren't looking to meteor swarm the world... they just want to take the frustration out of melee combat that comes in when the various enemies start getting invisibility and fly speeds.
Interesting, because most Fighter/Mage players I know are looking to Fireball, charge in, slaughter some dudes, Fly up and Fireball again.
Most of the players I've seen play an arcane warrior are actually just wanting some buffing to go with their melee. It's the versatility that allows them to melee while their opponent is flying or invisible or whatever that draws them in. They aren't looking to meteor swarm the world... they just want to take the frustration out of melee combat that comes in when the various enemies start getting invisibility and fly speeds.Interesting, because most Fighter/Mage players I know are looking to Fireball, charge in, slaughter some dudes, Fly up and Fireball again.
I think what people in general want, Kinds of things wizards can do (notice i said kinds of things, not everything a wizard can do), but the ability to fight. Dealing with flight, and invisibility are great examples of this. And hurling a fireball to soften up your enemies is another. Its the same [very] general category. And to be honest I think just about all of them fall within the 4 schools of magic I consider important (transmutaion, abjuration, necromancy, and evocation) with a dusting of divination spells.
I think what people in general want, Kinds of things wizards can do (notice i said kinds of things, not everything a wizard can do), but the ability to fight. Dealing with flight, and invisibility are great examples of this. And hurling a fireball to soften up your enemies is another. Its the same [very] general category. And to be honest I think just about all of them fall within the 4 schools of magic I consider important (transmutaion, abjuration, necromancy, and evocation) with a dusting of divination spells.Most of the players I've seen play an arcane warrior are actually just wanting some buffing to go with their melee. It's the versatility that allows them to melee while their opponent is flying or invisible or whatever that draws them in. They aren't looking to meteor swarm the world... they just want to take the frustration out of melee combat that comes in when the various enemies start getting invisibility and fly speeds.Interesting, because most Fighter/Mage players I know are looking to Fireball, charge in, slaughter some dudes, Fly up and Fireball again.
A lot of the personal illusion spells too.
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Sure Cirino, but you are overlooking the other part. They've actually been useful, at least they seem to be. You put the Arcane Trickster or the Theurge on paper, they look like garbage. But they at least seem to act as well as their more concentrated brethren; and in the case of our current theurge despite his level deficiency his access to cleric magic has helped the party survive the low levels far better than a straight Mage; obviously we'll see in the long term (it's shattered city, so it's going to 20). As they only have 4 players, being able to fill two roles for the party has been important.
I agree, any class can be fun. But I'm going to argue that the flexibility that cannot be measured in these "single character travelling alone" arguments actually makes these classes at least as useful as their concentrated breatheren.
Thank you so very much for adding to the conversation with your blanket statement that is not only as I said absent of any contribution to the conversation, but actually untrue. I have played as a githyanki in 3.5, and I bet at least a few others have as well. I just havent played a githyanki fighter mage. He was a rogue if I recall correctly.
Sorry you misinterpreted my statement.
"None of us" refers to me and my gaming group. (I can't speak for anyone else except our particular group.)
But your threadcrapping is terribly helpful, let me tell you.
Just answering the thread's original question, sparky.
Thank you so very much for adding to the conversation with your blanket statement that is not only as I said absent of any contribution to the conversation, but actually untrue. I have played as a githyanki in 3.5, and I bet at least a few others have as well. I just havent played a githyanki fighter mage. He was a rogue if I recall correctly.Sorry you misinterpreted my statement.
"None of us" refers to me and my gaming group. (I can't speak for anyone else except our particular group.)
But your threadcrapping is terribly helpful, let me tell you.Just answering the thread's original question, sparky.
You are still thread crapping. You know full well the OP was not specifically refering to a githyanki.
Well ... there's another thread dedicated to the viability of Arcane Warriors - take that stuff over there. "Fun" being subjective *is* the point of this thread. If you're not ready to listen to that, head over to the other, most recent one here.
Now, to keep things relevant to the thread, here's my character. Lirial - an elf sworn to protect others of her kind after her village was slaughtered.
She's a Swashbuckler 3 (minor tweaks), Fighter 2, Specialist Wizard (Transmuter)1, and an Abjurant Champion 1. 7th level total.
She's got 65 hp, and is caster level 2nd. I do NOT play her like a wizard, or gear her that way - she's a warrior, and front-line fighter. Why, as a 2nd level caster would I rely on her strength as a caster? That's just silly, and not the point of an arcane warrior, IMO.
Ability Spread
Str - 12, Dex - 17, Con - 12, Int - 18, Wis - 10, Cha - 10
Her highest stat is, however, her Int - it's an 18. Why? to beef up her casting, and take advantage of the level 3 swashbuckler feature of adding Int to damage (vs. sneak-attackable targets only, though).
She's at +6/+1 for her attacks (finally - but only 1 behind our resident dedicated fighter).
Here's the Feats and such layout:
Feats and Class Abilities
Improved Weapon Familiarity (Character 1)
Combat Expertise (Fighter - 1)
Weapon Focus: Elven Thinblade (Character - 3)
Improved Disarm (Fighter 2)
Weapon Finesse (Swashbuckler 1)
Dodge (Swashbuckler 2/combat style)
Combat Casting (Character - 6)
Immediate Magic (Wizard - 1/replaces familiar): Sudden Shift 4/day {gain climb/fly/swim speed until end of action/round}
Scribe Scroll (Wizard - 1)
Power Attack (Flaw - approved by GM even w/out the 13 to str, though)
Abjurant Armor (+1 to armor and shield value)
Extend Abjuration (free "Extend Spell" status on all Abjuration spells cast)
Skills are kind of irrelevant, but she does ok in what she has skills in, and what matters most. Tumble is an 11 check, and Diplomacy and Concentration are 10's (this is a 3.5 game).
Ok, so in combat she's got a +1 Keen Adamant Elven Thinblade, and attacks at +11/+6. Her threat range is 15-20 and the weapon inflicts 1d8+2 damage to non-sneak-attackable targets, and 1d8+6 vs. those vulnerable to it (ie: most stuff we've been up against, though we're heading to deal w/undead soon, so she'll lose some effectiveness there).
She's a disarm-machine, though at a +15 to manage it. We went through a whole bunch of baddies, and she behaved like a fighter - she had a shield spell up (and bumped her AC to 24 {25 w/dodge}} and went to town, not killing everyone, but instead, she walked up and disarmed people, sending their weapons wide and far from their location. The heavy tank fighter rolled in behind her and batted clean-up to her set-ups. It was all very tactical - I'd step in, disarm to negate threat/AoO's for everyone else, and created pockets for my team mates to run right through and get away (it was a bit of a chase scene and some nasty golem was chasing us - don't ask). This scene was the most exciting as we couldn't stop the golem, and needed to get away, then some yahoo's showed up to mess with us and had NO idea what was coming our way. So then I just started taking the threat away from them w/out needing to fight and whittle down HP's while the golem gained ground. It was fantastic!!! Having the higher AC and tumbling stuff down allowed Lirial to dip and weave from A to B locations and then disarm them to take away their combat advantages on my team. Soon, even the baddies were running with us, too - it was just great fun.
Is she going to cast spells to break the world open? I doubt it, but I don't want her to.
Note the UA rule I'm using with her for the Transmutation power in place of the familiar (GOD I loathe familiars!). It gives her immediate movement powers for a good chunk of time daily.
Her magic is there to PURELY enhance combat that she engages in, and the build reflects this.
She's a disarm-machine, though at a +15 to manage it. We went through a whole bunch of baddies, and she behaved like a fighter - she had a shield spell up (and bumped her AC to 24 {25 w/dodge}} and went to town, not killing everyone, but instead, she walked up and disarmed people, sending their weapons wide and far from their location. The heavy tank fighter rolled in behind her and batted clean-up to her set-ups. It was all very tactical - I'd step in, disarm to negate threat/AoO's for everyone else, and created pockets for my team mates to run right through and get away (it was a bit of a chase scene and some nasty golem was chasing us - don't ask). This scene was the most exciting as we couldn't stop the golem, and needed to get away, then some yahoo's showed up to mess with us and had NO idea what was coming our way. So then I just started taking the threat away from them w/out needing to fight and whittle down HP's while the golem gained ground. It was fantastic!!! Having the higher AC and tumbling stuff down allowed Lirial to dip and weave from A to B locations and then disarm them to take away their combat advantages on my team. Soon, even the baddies were running with us, too - it was just great fun.
So what is it about her magic side that helped with this? Did you have expeditious retreat up to keep her ahead of the pack? What spells did you use besides shield?
She's a disarm-machine, though at a +15 to manage it. We went through a whole bunch of baddies, and she behaved like a fighter - she had a shield spell up (and bumped her AC to 24 {25 w/dodge}} and went to town, not killing everyone, but instead, she walked up and disarmed people, sending their weapons wide and far from their location. The heavy tank fighter rolled in behind her and batted clean-up to her set-ups. It was all very tactical - I'd step in, disarm to negate threat/AoO's for everyone else, and created pockets for my team mates to run right through and get away (it was a bit of a chase scene and some nasty golem was chasing us - don't ask). This scene was the most exciting as we couldn't stop the golem, and needed to get away, then some yahoo's showed up to mess with us and had NO idea what was coming our way. So then I just started taking the threat away from them w/out needing to fight and whittle down HP's while the golem gained ground. It was fantastic!!! Having the higher AC and tumbling stuff down allowed Lirial to dip and weave from A to B locations and then disarm them to take away their combat advantages on my team. Soon, even the baddies were running with us, too - it was just great fun.So what is it about her magic side that helped with this? Did you have expeditious retreat up to keep her ahead of the pack? What spells did you use besides shield?
Shield bumped her AC nicely and kept her from taking hits ... IN ADDITION TO her melee/martial skills already. Keep in mind, it's a character with 2 caster levels (1 gained AFTER that fact, so really only 1 at the time). Earlier, she cast a color-spray and took out/neutralized a few extra targets for a few rounds.
Given her limited spell casting, she contributed just fine. What do you expect?
She's a disarm-machine, though at a +15 to manage it. We went through a whole bunch of baddies, and she behaved like a fighter - she had a shield spell up (and bumped her AC to 24 {25 w/dodge}} and went to town, not killing everyone, but instead, she walked up and disarmed people, sending their weapons wide and far from their location. The heavy tank fighter rolled in behind her and batted clean-up to her set-ups. It was all very tactical - I'd step in, disarm to negate threat/AoO's for everyone else, and created pockets for my team mates to run right through and get away (it was a bit of a chase scene and some nasty golem was chasing us - don't ask). This scene was the most exciting as we couldn't stop the golem, and needed to get away, then some yahoo's showed up to mess with us and had NO idea what was coming our way. So then I just started taking the threat away from them w/out needing to fight and whittle down HP's while the golem gained ground. It was fantastic!!! Having the higher AC and tumbling stuff down allowed Lirial to dip and weave from A to B locations and then disarm them to take away their combat advantages on my team. Soon, even the baddies were running with us, too - it was just great fun.So what is it about her magic side that helped with this? Did you have expeditious retreat up to keep her ahead of the pack? What spells did you use besides shield?Shield bumped her AC nicely and kept her from taking hits ... IN ADDITION TO her melee/martial skills already. Keep in mind, it's a character with 2 caster levels (1 gained AFTER that fact, so really only 1 at the time). Earlier, she cast a color-spray and took out/neutralized a few extra targets for a few rounds.
Given her limited spell casting, she contributed just fine. What do you expect?
just asking, seems you enjoyed the character, I am wondering how you mixed the two to achieve that effect. It seems the most important part you took from magic is the familiar replacement ability?
Ah! Ok - so the "advancement plan" then?
Well, at core she's a martial-concept! So whatever she does, it'll be with the focus on "martial prowess" primarily.
So, I'll never get dmg output of say a barbarian or fighter, so ... I grabbed swashbuckler to up my damage against *most* viable opponents (undead and constructs are exempt - more or less, though), so that's one nice competitive edge feature.
It also gave Wpn Finesse, so that helps in combat maneuvers, etc to help with her combat style being dex-based vs. melee based. I took the special feat to get the elven weapon with a long crit range, too. All of this is designed around the fact that she'd have to spend feats and such to compete with melee-types overall.
I jumped into Wizard with the intent to build towards Bladesinger, and took that Transmustation thing to avoid familiars (HATE THEM!!!), and it was actually REALLY useful to a melee-type character. You can spend crazy $ getting spider-climb boots, or winged sandals or whatever, OR ... you can "magic" yourself some flight and climbing, or even tunneling if need be! It's keyed off of the primary casting stat (which, thanks to Swashbuckler levels is also keyed into pumping damage up), so as that advances, so will uses of this feature as well. Likely, it'll be more useful as levels progress as well.
Originally, I wanted to pick up Bladesinger as, character-wise, that's the theme/core of her concept. Bladesinger ala: 2e aesthetics. Sure, it's all self imposed on my end, but I really liked that flavor of the kit back in 2e, and I'm running with it (On my own) for 3e. Of course, it's kind of an underwhelming class overall, and in my research I found the Abjurant Champion - PERFECT for what I was gunning for. I was leary of the bladesinger on the lower caster levels, BUT when I got to it, I was going to end up being the only "magic" class in the group - not good. When stacked up against the Abjurant Champion and no loss of caster levels, it just is a better fit for me and the group overall as I can still get the HD and BAB bonuses while progressing as a "caster" since there really wasn't one in the group.
How will this play out in future? Well, the abjurant champion stuff will allow her to replace armor costs outright (as the Mage Armor spell will surpass her light-armors anyway; and the Shield spell needs nothing but to be cast and will already replace a real sheild in bonuses by the class features). She'll keep getting BAB and HD boons to keep her "martial" side up to competetive level. She can still grab feats, etc, and the progressive spell selections will revolve around those things that will help the martial types in combat (ie: myself as well) and those that will be "me only" effects. OR ... I'll use inexpensive equipment to provide myself with those self or group buffing effects less costly to me in casting/action terms in combat (or out if afforded any possibility of managing it).
In terms of final build, I'm planning to take the next 4 levels in Abjurant Champion (only 5 level class) to get the ability boons it grants, and then, probably pick up on fighter/swashbuckler, or *maybe* dip into Bladesinger at that point. By the highest level mage armor and shiled will grant a +9 to AC in their respective elements to me, and I plan to keep pumping Int as much as possible. The capstone power sets my caster level = to my bab, so that's good (even if I don't have that access of a higher level, the spells at least have the potency). So hitting bladesinger will again give the good bab, more good will, and add good ref saves, it'll take some hits on the caster level front, but "eh" who cares? She'll start to get the AC bonus for bladesong style and add her Int to AC as well as damage (from swashbuckler).
She'll have very a very high AC in the end, with solid HP, and has only lost 1 bab point for her arcane studies - this is a good thing given her character focus. I'm really excited to play her, honestly, and I've yet to think of her a "weak" at all.
Ah! Ok - so the "advancement plan" then?
Well, at core she's a martial-concept! So whatever she does, it'll be with the focus on "martial prowess" primarily.
So, I'll never get dmg output of say a barbarian or fighter, so ... I grabbed swashbuckler to up my damage against *most* viable opponents (undead and constructs are exempt - more or less, though), so that's one nice competitive edge feature.
It also gave Wpn Finesse, so that helps in combat maneuvers, etc to help with her combat style being dex-based vs. melee based. I took the special feat to get the elven weapon with a long crit range, too. All of this is designed around the fact that she'd have to spend feats and such to compete with melee-types overall.
I jumped into Wizard with the intent to build towards Bladesinger, and took that Transmustation thing to avoid familiars (HATE THEM!!!), and it was actually REALLY useful to a melee-type character. You can spend crazy $ getting spider-climb boots, or winged sandals or whatever, OR ... you can "magic" yourself some flight and climbing, or even tunneling if need be! It's keyed off of the primary casting stat (which, thanks to Swashbuckler levels is also keyed into pumping damage up), so as that advances, so will uses of this feature as well. Likely, it'll be more useful as levels progress as well.
Originally, I wanted to pick up Bladesinger as, character-wise, that's the theme/core of her concept. Bladesinger ala: 2e aesthetics. Sure, it's all self imposed on my end, but I really liked that flavor of the kit back in 2e, and I'm running with it (On my own) for 3e. Of course, it's kind of an underwhelming class overall, and in my research I found the Abjurant Champion - PERFECT for what I was gunning for. I was leary of the bladesinger on the lower caster levels, BUT when I got to it, I was going to end up being the only "magic" class in the group - not good. When stacked up against the Abjurant Champion and no loss of caster levels, it just is a better fit for me and the group overall as...
Interesting, it seems to me you are more interested in the class features the magic classes can provide then the spells themselves. Certain basic defensive spells like mage armor and shield sure, but it seems to me at least you actually intend to get most of your offense from other classes, and arent considering things like haste and enlarge person to help you lay down the hurt? [this is not criticism, i simply find your characters direction intersting, and not a kind of balance I see often, mostly because many other magic/fighting mix classes have more significant requirements on both sides then the abjurant champion does.] You are more of a fighter[well swashbuckler mostly] with a sprinkling of magic.
Oh - well, Enlarge Person and Haste and things like that will pop up and be used when she unlocks them. For instance, she didn't use it in that chase scene so that she could remain mobile and not have to worry about being too big to fit through doorways (unlike the frakkin' golem that just broke the doors and the whole building, etc).
So, those thing'll be there, yes, but mostly what she's doing is using that to enhance her combat/fighting first.
The AC levels allow her to "quicken cast" any abjuration spells on the fly (I think to like 4th level spells), so that's always neat (swift action Stoneskin/Mage Armor/Resist Energy/whatever), and she can still fight while doing so. Dropping a few on herself and/or another melee-heavy won't keep in competition for DPR, BUT I'm sure the fighter'll appreciate a stoneskin in the thick of things as she just reaches over and instantly makes him WAY tougher than before ... and then she full attacks on top of it, etc. {Not sure if it'll work like that, but still - the idea is what I'm gunning for - can always study a spell like that for quicken, or use the free-quicken features of say Bladesinger or something}.
Most of that, though, will depend on what we're doing. She *is* sort of taking on the "mage" role for the most part, and I may even just grab more wizard after ending Abj. Champ, but the thing is the build suits the direction of the group and her initial concept well. You're definitely right on the small buy-in for Abj. Champ, but that's what made it appeal to me as well - didn't have to trade in much in the "martial" to ramp up the "arcane" side in doing this, AND the group just didn't have any arcane casting at all beyond my 1 level, spell-poor self (not the original intent, I believe, but we lost a player).
Honestly, I *think* more "Arcane Warriors" want to see the class features of things like Abjurant Champions more than they want to see "give me all the spells!!!" I mean, look at the EK - all KINDS of spells, and VERY powerful for being able to bump Fighter simultaneously as it bumps "caster", BUT ... there are NO features that really allow for "martial/arcane" synergy except for the very end capstone, and IT requires an action to use (ie: if you use the swift/immediate actions of any feats for stuff like arcane strike, you're SoL when you crit and can't use the cap-stone).
EK, as it exists is VERY powerful, but it offers NOTHING in the way of synergy between casting and combat - which is why things like Abj. Champ. and Bladesinger look much more appealing to me.
Oh - well, Enlarge Person and Haste and things like that will pop up and be used when she unlocks them. For instance, she didn't use it in that chase scene so that she could remain mobile and not have to worry about being too big to fit through doorways (unlike the frakkin' golem that just broke the doors and the whole building, etc).
So, those thing'll be there, yes, but mostly what she's doing is using that to enhance her combat/fighting first.
The AC levels allow her to "quicken cast" any abjuration spells on the fly (I think to like 4th level spells), so that's always neat (swift action Stoneskin/Mage Armor/Resist Energy/whatever), and she can still fight while doing so. Dropping a few on herself and/or another melee-heavy won't keep in competition for DPR, BUT I'm sure the fighter'll appreciate a stoneskin in the thick of things as she just reaches over and instantly makes him WAY tougher than before ... and then she full attacks on top of it, etc. {Not sure if it'll work like that, but still - the idea is what I'm gunning for - can always study a spell like that for quicken, or use the free-quicken features of say Bladesinger or something}.
Most of that, though, will depend on what we're doing. She *is* sort of taking on the "mage" role for the most part, and I may even just grab more wizard after ending Abj. Champ, but the thing is the build suits the direction of the group and her initial concept well. You're definitely right on the small buy-in for Abj. Champ, but that's what made it appeal to me as well - didn't have to trade in much in the "martial" to ramp up the "arcane" side in doing this, AND the group just didn't have any arcane casting at all beyond my 1 level, spell-poor self (not the original intent, I believe, but we lost a player).
Honestly, I *think* more "Arcane Warriors" want to see the class features of things like Abjurant Champions more than they want to see "give me all the spells!!!" I mean, look at the EK - all KINDS of spells, and VERY powerful for being able to bump...
I definately agree synergy is whats really important from such a class. It is what I most want to see from a class that was meant to support the arcane warrior concept.
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Regarding actual play experience ... Recently I and another player did extensive playtesting of a fighter/magic user base class I created and we both had a lot of fun with it. Also, in our current weekly game I am planning on playing this class long term. Although I can't go into details because the class is under consideration currently for Kobold Quarterly, I can say that the class has been a blast to play and very much has the synergy many are speaking of.
I honestly am very excited about the class and really hope you all get the chance to try it out.
In fact, one of the players in our group made my day when they told me they are planning on playing the class when we start up Kingmaker later this summer;)
I really wish I could say more !!!
Anyone try out the Magus yet?
Also, there's no other good term.Sorry about this, but i have for about a week searched to find some type of definition for 'gish' can someone explain please?So the term gish is technically a wizards of the coast proprietary word that originally refered to a very specific type of character. A githyenki fighter wizard i believe.
Now adays after years of online forum use, it has come to be a generic term for a fighter mage character. Most people mean more figther then they do Mage when they say gish, but there is definately a sliding scale as to how much fighter and how much mage people mean.
Sure there is. 'Zerth', which is from the very same book as 'gish', but doesn't sound half as stupid. Wouldn't you rather be a 'zerth' than a 'gish'? Even if you don't buy the sound bit, 'zerth' at least doesn't have all the odd Urban Dictionary definitions that 'gish' has.
Anyone try out the Magus yet?
And is it not also true that with the arrival of the Magus, "Gish" threads are officially passe?
Weren't the Passe in about 2002?