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Liberty's Edge

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RazarTuk wrote:
Sebastian Hirsch wrote:
I really don't see the point in arguing for historically correct armors and names, if we are playing in a fantasy setting with dragons and plenty of weird races.

Or with armor, brigandine. Rather than just being metal studs and operating on the rule of cool, it was the equivalent of wearing a bulletproof Kevlar vest under civilian clothes.

Sometimes, the actual historical options are cooler than the staples of the industry.

Visby (and other) Brigandine armor is WAAAY cooler than stupid (oops-studded) leather, even if you ignore that studded leather never existed and couldnt exist.

Studded leather is the second worst fantasy armor Sacred Cow after the arm-straped buckler, because (like the buckler) it was based on a mistake, and it wouldn't work, period.

The above named Sacred Cows arent just irritating because they are misnamed, like with the reversal of Longsword and Bastard Sword (nevermind the absence of arming sword or the use of Chain in Chainmail). THey are epic/ tragic fails based on errors/ misunderstandings, and they defy the laws of physics.

All those studs would ruin the protection from leather armor. Why? 1. puncturing the leather in multiple places weakens it, reducing greatly how much hardened leather can withstand cuts & blows. 2. the studs would catch weapon points and hold them in place, as well as channeling cuts directly into the leather, in both cases preventing the leather from deflecting/ turning the blow. A bludgeoning weapon would drive the studs through the leather armor and into the wearer, basically adding piercing damage. The purpose of armor is to distribute/ disburse energy. Studs would focus cutting, piercing, AND bludgeoning attacks.

Note: for those who didnt know, Chainmail is called Maile. "Chainmail" is the incorrect name coined by museum curators and medieval revivalists in Victorian England. Confession: I still use "chainmail" even when talking about real armor- this mistake doesn't matter.

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RazarTuk wrote:

So as a quick historical note, historical bucklers were actually closer to small shields in 3.PF. You would actually stick it out in front of you, because while it was too small to be much use against arrows, the concept of having a target in front of you that isn't your mortal coil is an amazing thing for dueling. This thread isn't really about shield names, though. I just mention that to make sure people have the right mental image of things.

Onto the meat of this complaint, swashbucklers are literally named after the shield. Even if later incarnations of the archetype like Westley and Inigo Montoya were too cocky to bother with shields, the original swashbucklers would duel with a rapier in one hand and a buckler thrust out front with the other. That's where the name comes from. They swashed (swaggered about with a sword) with bucklers.

So while it's a little strange in that context for Slashing and Fencing Grace in 1e to disallow shields, the technicality around 3.PF bucklers being strapped to you arm and therefore not actually occupying a hand meant that you could still include the buckler part of being a swashbuckler. However, there are no shields in 2e that can be strapped to your arm, meaning we're left with only the swashing part of being a swashbuckler.

Therefore, I propose either reintroducing the 3.PF buckler or, since design space is tighter, just amending the requirements on the Dueling Parry feat chain to allow for a light shield in your off hand.

Again, you speak truth. One thing that doesnt have to change from the 1e RAW is that you CAN hold things in the same hand that grips the buckler. even an off hand weapon, if you want stab instead of punch.

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Darge wrote:
I would love to see changes like the ones the opportunity stated, while we're at it, can we change the long sword to arming sword and basted sword to long sword?

Can I get an A-MEN, brother Darg?

Liberty's Edge

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RazarTuk wrote:


Quote:
And Bucklers strapping to the wrist is cool.
There's nothing that says they can't still strap to your wrist. I just made them an option for rapidly bashing people with like they were in history. Giving them bash damage and a feat to be raised as a reaction just makes them cooler.

I agree with almost all of your points on armor, though you are wrong about breastplates- they did exist and were used frequently by Cuirassiers as firearms became available. But I disagree completely about bucklers. We can't insist on too much reality in fantasy games, but being a real life sword and buckler fighter, the whole "it straps to your wrist" thing, and not being able to punch with a buckler, drives me nuts.

I punched a guy in the face with my buckler in Vegas in a tournament last August, and knocked him out on his feet. And he was wearing a heavy face mask. Its a darn fine weapon, but thats beside the point.

The error began with Gary Gygax. He introduced the buckler to D&D with the "spiked buckler" in the 1ed AD&D Unearthed Arcana; a spiked light shield that strapped to your wrist. One thing he got right was that you could punch with the spike. Gygax first learned of it in a badly worded, fuzzy-pictured antiquities catalog (probably with an erroneous description poorly translated from Italian or German), and he thought it strapped to your arm. It actually "buckles" to your sword belt or scabbard for ease of carry, and you grip it by a single handle in the center boss when you fight with it.

Then with D&D 3.0, the designers made the intuitive leap that you can't punch with a shield that straps to your arm (duh). They were right, but instead of changing the unrealistic, physically impossible part where it straps to your wrist, they took away the ACCURATE part where you could punch with a buckler (thats why they were spiked!).

D'OH!!!

Disallowing punching with it (what the buckler is intended to do!), and claiming that it "buckles to your wrist", are the stupidest sacred cows in fantasy gaming. Moreso because they are A. based on a mistake Gygax made, and B. are impossible according to physics.

I used to think bucklers strapping to your arm were cool too, back in my Living Greyhawk days. 8 years ago I started doing historical combat, and learned about arms and armor. I still didnt mind the wrist-strapping part, until I learned that strapping a buckler to your wrist and using it as a shield is PHYSICALLY IMPOSSIBLE. It wont stay vertical, at all, ever. No contrivance of genius Gnomish engineers can make it work.

Now, the caveat is that you CAN hold items in your buckler hand while you grip a REAL buckler. That part of the rules is fine. I've fought with a buckler while holding a dagger in my buckler hand. There are historical accounts of this. If I were a wizard, I could easily use a wand or metamagic rod in my buckler hand, or hold onto my bonded staff with my buckler hand while my other hand grabs material components and does somatics.

Sure, there is magic in Pathfinder, which is also physically impossible. So why hate on bucklers? Well, bucklers arent magic. They are mundane shields that wouldn't work as written in D&D and Pathfinder. So if you care that your 8 Strength elf wizard can't carry a 300 lb treasure chest out of a 3 levels-deep dungeon and back to his horse at his full movement speed, you should also care that arm-strapping bucklers are wrong. I dare you to find one one someone has built on Youtube or anywhere else in the internet/ world, that actually works as intended.

If you don't feel that physics and reality should at all matter in our fantasy games, and things like encumbramce, armor check penalties, etc. have no place in your game, then please disregard the above.

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Shadrayl of the Mountain wrote:

In India, they did have bucklers that strap on...

Otherwise, I totally agree. I want a big variety of shields. The fact that 5e only has one shield type was a big letdown for me.

Ive seen Indian bucklers, and if they only strap on, I'd be very interested in seeing this. THe ubiquitous European buckler that the Pathfinder version is based on (originally derived from 1st Ed. Unearthed Arcana/ a Dragon Magazine article written by Gygax in the early 80's) is held in the hand. No straps, no "buckling". Held in the center, like a viking shield, or a tiny hobbit door with a handle.

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Shadrayl of the Mountain wrote:

Except when a targe is 2 ft across...

Seriously, I'm not especially concenrned with what they get called. I just want some variety.

well said, in all respects.

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NetoD20 wrote:

I really don't care about real world counterparts and nomeclatures. Historically though, the small shield that you strap to your arm and that is exactly like the D&D/Pathfinder buckler is the targe. So if they make the buckler something else as suggested as long as there is a targe that would be 2E equivalent to 1E buckler, I'm happy. However that were to happen I'm not sure there would be sufficient in-game differences between bucklers and light shields. So I guess that if anything on that direction were to happen maybe the best course of action would be to just change nomenclature. Like so:

Bucklers as we know them are renamed Targes.
Light Shields become Bucklers.
Heavy Shields become just Shields.
Tower Shields stay Tower Shields.

Targes DO strap on the arm, but also have a handle that is held. there is no physically possible way to have a shield ONLY strp to your arm and not roll to the under side of your arm, thereby rendering it useless and a shield. Shields are actively wielded, and must be held in the hand. You CAN hold other things on your shield hand pretty easily though, Scotts frequently held dirks in their targe hand, and the manuals talked about grabbing sword blades in your buckler hand. See my post above for full description.

Liberty's Edge

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Bucklers dont strap on the arm. Scottish Targes don't Only strap on the arm- they have a handle that is held in the hand.
There is no type of shield in existence that ONLY straps on your arm- it is physically impossible for it to remain in place, and not roll under your arm under its own weight, threby facing the ground.
I have handled both antique historical targes and bucklers, and I have fought with both reproduction bucklers and targes. THey must be held. You can in fact do lots of things with the hand holding a buckler or targe, in fact often a highlander fought with his dirk held in the hand also holding the handle of his targe. There are techniques in historical fighting manuals where you seize your opponents sword blade or handle with your buckler hand. Also it wasnt too hard to hold a dagger in your buckler hand.

Bucklers did not switch with targes in the game books, though that seems to make sense. In fact, when Gygax wrote Unearthed Arcana, he screwed up. He saw a buckler in an 80s antique auction/museum catalogue, with a typically 80s ignorant description and grainy, terrible picture, and wrote that it buckles on your arm. <insert gameshow buzzer noise here> That is incorrect, Gary (still love you, Wee Jas bless and keep you). We are actually not even sure noy why it was called a buckler- speculation is that it buckles on your belt. Usually it was shown carried by a strap that looped over the top of your sword scabbard, just under the opening where your sword goes. Some later Italian bucklers had a hook on th front, which hooked nicely over your belt, and you cound wear the buckler on your belt with the handle facing out.

But yes, bucklers are VERY nice for punching. I almost got disqualified by punching just a little too hard with one 3 weeks ago in a HEMA tournament. Bucklers are just as good for ranged attacks- they are just held out from the body and pointed at your opponent/ his weapon.
The "bucklers slap away/ turn aside" myth is one that that has been perpetuated with Renaissance Fair swordfighters, and is completely wrong. Bucklers are held out static, and moved to intercept weapons, but they are hard enough to just get in the way of attacks coming at you at FULL speed (I fight full speed and full power with them regularly), let alone time it perfectly to slap away an incoming attack. THis action actually moves the buckler exactly where you DON'T want it- you want it between you and your opponent/ your opponent's weapon; trying to slap away an incoming attack, even if you are lucky enough to hit it (you will probably miss)and not get clobbered by his weapon, throws your buckler off to either side for a second, and that second will cost your life in a swordfight. The myth is perpetuated by Ren Fair fighters who do not fight at full speed with intent to actually hit each other. Google Marozzo, MS I33, Lignitzer for proof.
Also, just for fun:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-NFmLuRAlfA
the most fun is at 2:45.

Liberty's Edge

Holy moley, I didn't realize this many people were still interested in running Savage Tide! I'm going to run my kids through it, who have just started playing in the last year.

could I get a copy of you Pathfinder RPG conversions too, please?

thejabberwockmyson@gmaildotcom

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I want to run the adventure as written, set in Greyhawk, so i only need a rules conversion to PFRPG.
Jest needs stats, especially for npcs and other encounters.

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Goddity wrote:
One of my single greatest regrets is learning to fence, because I can't appreciate movie sword fights anymore. Be sure you know what you're getting yourself into. You might never appreciate movies with sword fights again if you learn how to do it properly.

On the contrary, it makes you appreciate the well done fights even more. The Longsword fights in kingdom of heaven are great, the fights in Rob Roy are excellent, and my favorite are the ones in last of the mohicans.

Troy had some great stuff too.

The problem i have developed is hating the crappy unrealistic swords most fantasy miniature sculptors make. I get that large proportioned swords look better on a miniature, but for the love of god i wish they would learn what a pommel is. Or that crossguards that point back towards your hand might look "dungeonpunk" cool to the "keep your reality out of my fantasy" types, but really they just make the sword look ridiculous and unrealistic.

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havoc xiii wrote:
Mourningcloud wrote:
havoc xiii wrote:
Panama City, Florida (note while city is in its name it's just a step above town it's only claim to infamy is spring break )

The floyds used to be in Florida, but they just relocated to Colorado. Theres a guy in Sarasota named Derrek Connnely who does some good sword stuff, but Im not sure if he is looking to teach. Theres a very good teacher in Orlando named Scott Brown, his club is called Ochs America. ITs a drive, but in hema we almost always have to drive to train. There are no corner hema mcdojos like there are MMA gyms and Tae Kwon Do schools. Also Chad Light runs the elizabethan era reenacting in St Augustine, and fences the Spanish style (Destreza, which is my chosen rapier style) but I dont know if he teaches.

(not yet at least, but that IS our ultimate goal of HEMA world domination ;)

What is the school you found near you? I can at probably get info about them.

Panama City Western Martial Arts

Destreza sounds interesting I'll have to look that up.

I saw the panama city sparring video on their facebook. It might not be a bad place to start, but they (and im not mudslinging here- my hats off to any group out there trying to work this out on their own) seem slightly rudimentary still, at least based on that video. I think you would get more out of it if you made the drive out to Orlando and train with Scott Brown. Google Ochs America. Maybe a once a week thing, and practice at home during the week?

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GreyWolfLord wrote:
Dexion1619 wrote:

So, needing to get back into shape, I decided to try something new (because somehow between backpacking and archery I still gained weight, thanks "Getting Old")...

So, considering I already compete in USPSA Pistol match's and Archery matches I figured "How Hard could sword fighting be?"

Answer: My everything hurts. (In a good way)

So, I'm learning Rapier and Longsword (Which is actually mostly two handed, who knew?) at the local club (Btw: I lived in this city 7 years, and had a club that teach's the use of German Longsword 4 blocks from me this whole time? What?).

For those that don't know, HEMA is Historical European Martial Arts.

So, anyone else ever tried HEMA? So far it's a great workout and a lot of fun!

No, but I've done fencing for around 20 years. Also did Kendo...but totally wrong part of the world.

I suppose that doesn't really count though...not really the same thing in some ways.

I've read a few of the old sword training manuals from the old military books, if HEMA (as it sounds like someone indicated above) is using those that can only mean good things for their authenticity and what they are doing in my opinion.

That is what we are going for! Thank you for getting it. So many people dont, and hence comes the confusion with LARPers and the like, and the then the (wrongly placed) resentment due to that confusion. And that way lies madness....

(but seriously, its not good for ANY of the groups).

Liberty's Edge

havoc xiii wrote:
Panama City, Florida (note while city is in its name it's just a step above town it's only claim to infamy is spring break )

The floyds used to be in Florida, but they just relocated to Colorado. Theres a guy in Sarasota named Derrek Connnely who does some good sword stuff, but Im not sure if he is looking to teach. Theres a very good teacher in Orlando named Scott Brown, his club is called Ochs America. ITs a drive, but in hema we almost always have to drive to train. There are no corner hema mcdojos like there are MMA gyms and Tae Kwon Do schools. Also Chad Light runs the elizabethan era reenacting in St Augustine, and fences the Spanish style (Destreza, which is my chosen rapier style) but I dont know if he teaches.

(not yet at least, but that IS our ultimate goal of HEMA world domination ;)

What is the school you found near you? I can at probably get info about them.

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Limeylongears wrote:


My main thing at the moment is sidesword & buckler. Loads of us have bucklers now, so it's pretty easy to find a sparring partner should you want one.

I LOVE sidesword and buckler. What group are you training with? Marozzo is the bomb. I had a chance to train with Ilkka Hartikainen a few years ago with sidesword, and it was awesome. Look up Marozzo.org of you are unfamiliar with him. Sidesword is my absolute favorite. and the reason i wish game companies would give up their stupid sacred cows like game long swords being real world arming swords and bucklers strapping on the arm. Gygax sometimes got it wrong, and its time we owned up to that and moved on.

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Limeylongears wrote:

I went to a different class on Monday (I'll still go to my old one, but I want to train more than once a week). We were doing German polearm stuff; I'm not super into it or very good at it, but I haven't done it previously, so it was interesting, at least.

My main thing at the moment is sidesword & buckler. Loads of us have bucklers now, so it's pretty easy to find a sparring partner should you want one.

What city are you located in? I have a pretty good knowledge of many hema groups around the US (especially CA, but I know and have trained with folks from all over.)

Liberty's Edge

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So im a hema practitioner and occasional instructor, as well as a Pathfinder player. Ive been doing hema 5 years, and I know many of the clubs and instructors in the US HEMA community. Ive never heard of a hema club that wouldnt love hema to have fantasy authors come out and observe, or even better take a class. As far as your perceptions of what HEMA folks think about larpers, SCAdians, and the ARMA cult: Im a member of an organization called The Hema Alliance. THey are not a club or governing body, but rather a blanket organization that strives to bring hema clubs together, and also to promote HEMA and to spread (not withold) information. They were formed by a lot of former members of ARMA, becuase they didnt like the way arma was exclusionary, didnt allow its members to study other maritial arts, and kept its information private.
IF you want to see the manuals we study from (what ARMA kept private for members only), check out the Wiktenauer. It contains scans of hundreds of historical fighting manuals including German, Italian, french, Spanish, Portuguese, English. The Wiktenauer is maintained by the HEMA alliance.
HEMA clubs as a whole aren't disdainful of larpers, or SCA (many people do more than one- I also do historical reenacting), but we try to distinguish ourselves from them because we consider ourselves a serious martial art, as well as a serious academic endeavor, and strive to be recognized as such. But many of us also play RPG's. I'd even stretch that and say most of us do ;)

Artemis, you are in a good spot. Sacramento Swordplay school has some great folks- the instructor Puck is a nice guy, and a hell of a fencer. Also Kevin Murakoshi is an instructor there, and fights well with rapier, sabre, and longsword even though they are primarily a spanish rapier school (Kevin just knocked me out of the longsword elims at a HEMA tournament a few months ago).
As far as the Meyer Freifechter, make no mistake, they are a serious HEMA group as exists. I dont know anyone from the Sacramento Freifechter, but I know the guys in the Atlanta Freifechter (its all one sort of big club) and they are great guys and fighters. If you want german longsword, as well as dussack and sword & buckler, check them out. Take the Red pill, Neo...
as far as ARMA goes...trust your instincts ;)
And if you are ever in Southern California, look up Kron Martial arts. That's where I study.

Dexion, are you studying with Ken Mondschien? If so, he's a good instructor. You are in a good place.

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Hyla wrote:
Ok, that settles it. My ustalavian cleric of Desna will bei a Bbn1/ClrX, instead of a Ftr1/ClrX. Thanks folks!

Welcome to the Barbarian1/ClericX-with-travel-domain club. My Cleric of Cayden Cailean conforms to this template. In fact with the movement granted by this combo, I decided to build his entire schtick on movement- step up, friendly switch, etc.

If you are building this as a primarily fighting cleric, you may want to consider barbarian2/ clericX. The spellcasting level tradeoff is steep, but for a fighting cleric the extra rage rounds are nice; however the real money is Uncanny dodge, which in Pathfinder works as a poor man's uncanny dodge- no extra attacks, but it allows you to make attacks of opportunity when you are flat footed, because you are NEVER flat footed.

YMMV. I have played both a half orc Barb1/ clericX, and a half orc Barb2/ clericX, and for a fighting cleric the Barb2 is money.

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Alorha wrote:
Mourningcloud wrote:
kind of a lame question here, but i assume weapon focus requires you to specify what type of pistol. For instance Weapon Focus in double barrel pistol would not work with a standard pistol, correct?

Correct. It's like longsword vs shortsword, etc. They're swords, but focus doesn't translate from one to the other. Same with the various pistols.

Also, there are no lame questions. It's a new mechanic and thinking it through and asking questions is a good thing to do.

Thank you. Sorry for 3 posts-stupid work computer. Devs, please delete extraneous threads. *so embarrassed*

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kind of a lame question here, but i assume weapon focus requires you to specify what type of pistol. For instance Weapon Focus in double barrel pistol would not work with a standard pistol, correct?

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So I plan on playtesting a Ninja in society play. When ultimate combat comes out I find that the stats I have chosen are sub par due to changes that have been made to the class (such as ki being wisdom based rather than charisma based, or ki as a class feature coming after 4th level, when my chacter will already have switched to wizard) is it allowable to change the characters stat array to reflect the changes made to the class?

The changes mentioned woud effectively render cha a dump stat, so a major overhoul would be warranted, IMHO.

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HalfOrcHeavyMetal wrote:
Mourningcloud wrote:
Excellent Stuff
Nothing pedantic about that at all. This argument keeps slipping into a "No U!!!!" affair between the fanbois and the history buffs, both for and against the 'superiority' of the Eastern Martial Arts and equipment over the rest of the world, and your post is a nice breath of fresh air to a rapidly stagnating argument.

Thank you kindly! Also, thought it mention 3 post script points:

1. I for one dont just get my information from the internet, I have been a student of Martial Arts, both Eastern and Western, for the last 18 years. That having been said, there is some good info out there. You really want to throw a fly into most D&D players good time ointment: look up Longsword on wikipedia (Who has it completely correct, by the way), and search for images of a buckler. Yep, its got a handle smack dab in the middle, and doesn't strap anywhere on your body other than your belt, when you carry it. You certainly cant hold anything in the hand of the arm it is strapped to, because it aint strapped anywhere (that having been said, my arcane trickster will certainly cast spells with the hand his mithril buckler is strapped to ;). Oh, and you punch and strike with a buckler just as much as you parry and block with it. At least, thats what I do with mine.

2. Take everything you see on the Hitler Channel with a grain of salt, and completely disregard 85% of everything you see on Deadliest Warrior. At my sword store, we have to debunk more ridiculous inaccuracies about weapons than I care to think about every time a new episode of that show comes out. Oh, but watch the Ming warrior vs musketeer episode, specifically the final fight. My buddy Jose is the Musketeer with the handlebar mustache who gets shot in the neck by the Ming gun. He's such a clown.

3. final note on Katanas- A friend who was watching a katana demo in Tokyo a few years ago mentioned how they demonstrated just how awful the sword was against armor. 1. it does not cut steel like a lightsabre, and 2. They double hand thrust one into a weak spot in some o-yoroi, and it got completely stuck. It is too thick and inflexible to make withdrawing from a successful thrust to armor feasible on the battlefield. European swords were a bit thinner, and MUCH more flexible, which makes withdrawing them from armor in a hurry do-able.

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lol i found this thread looking for a post about ninja builds, as im considering a arcane trickster build based off ninja rather than rogue (who needs evasion anyway)

So i read this whole dang monster thread, and laughed alot at the jokes, (Vuron, you are a genius) and learned alot i did not know about the various periods in japanese history.

I work in a sword store. I handle real European and Oriental swords from various makers and manufacturers all day. I could go on for days about historical facts, but I don't wanna be "that guy". But I bet I have handled more models of swords than most anyone on this thread, and I don't mean junk wall-hangers, or what we in the biz call SLO's (sword-like-objects). I study, handle, sell, sharpen, repair, customize, clean, polish, maintain, and cut with real swords. I do everything but outright forge, though i have a friend who does.

But here is what I think is relevant; my 2 cents, or however much you all deem it worth:

1. the Hollywood ninja-to are, as far as we can tell, a myth. Ninja used whatever they could get their hands on. The deceptive, long handled, short bladed sword seems logical, though, and since they mostly made their tools for themselves, there is no reason they wouldn't have taken an old found/ cheaply made blade and mounted it this way. It is super easy to handle a japanese sword- a little wood, something to wrap it in to give good grip (since the darn things got no pommels), and you pin it all together with a snapped off bamboo chopstick. Voila.

2. as others have stated, japan has crap steel. people who walk into my store talking about katanas being lightsabers, we have them hold out their hands, and we stick a piece of tamahagne in it. Its flaky, ugly, black junk. Japanese had to learn all the bells and whistled and hoodoo of forging swords that way, as one poster said, to make a sword that held an edge yet didnt shatter like dropped porcelain. Europeans didnt make swords this way because they didnt have to- europe has good steel.

3. katanas are not curved to make them cut better. they curve naturally in the forging process, after the clay is added and the final hardening of the edge is done (the step that adds the cool wavy lines on the edge, called the hamon). the front and back edges of the sword cool differently, so the blade curves. Beginning and end of story, though master smiths could control the curvature like... well, like masters. Not that the curve did not have advantages; it facilitated sweeping draw cuts from horseback, much like cavalry sabres. It also sucked against armor. royally.

4. European swords were not crude lumps of pig iron, as one learned fellow mentioned. European swordsmanship was just as well developed, codified, and taught as anything that ever came out of Japan, China, or anywhere else in the world. Google MS I.33. It is the oldest European Fechtbuch (fight book, literally) in existence, detailing sword and buckler dueling in the 12th century. And the swords were amazingly well crafted pieces of technology, from the meticulously crafted pattern-welded viking swords to the elizabethan/ italian and spanish rapiers.
The main difference between eastern and western swordsmanship is that there is a much more available living tradition of eastern martial arts, since they did not abandon the sword in Japan in favor of the gun as soon as firearm technology advanced far enough that it was advantageous to do so, which is what they did in europe.

5. I really feel for the devs. trying to walk the line between accuracy and pleasing the fantasy crowd, especially since leaning toward a historically accurate comparison highlights the glaring inaccuracies that are already existent in D&D's weapons and armor. I agree- keep it as bastard sword and short sword. true, the katana weighs much closer to a d&d longsword, but that just points the falacy of a longsword- a true european longsword is in fact a 2 handed weapon that can be used in one hand when performing certain maneuvers. It is synonymous with a bastard sword, for all intents and purposes, as it was just a but lighter and faster than a greatsword/warsword, but longer than the one handed viking sword or the crusades era/knightly arming sword, which is what we have based our completely inaccurately named longsword on (what can I say- gygax screwed up).

6. NOT getting sucked into the martial arts debate (though I stayed up until 2 reading it lol), but I will give a little history: as someone mentioned, it was coined by Europeans to define THEIR OWN fighting traditions, and when they saw they oriental fighting methods, they agreed, them eastern people had their own martial arts. Heh, who'd a thunk? Google Bartitsu, if you aint sure, as well as Achille Marrozo, Rudolpho cappoferro, Johannes Lichtenauer, and Fiore De Liberi. Okay okay, google Destreza as well; I suppose I have to mention the Spanish system too, since ive gone this far. or just go watch Reclaiming the Blade, which will give you a pretty good outline of all this.

so my conclusion: should katana and wakizashi be samurai weapons, but not ninja? absolutely not, since ninja-to swords are figments of Hollywood's creativity (but heck, I own one :). I'll go one step further: if you say that, then to remain accurate, youd also have to make early pistols and rifles available to samurai, cavaliers, and even ninja (who, again, made their own).

I hope I havent beeN too pedantic, and have managed to stay off any soap boxrs.

Cheers!

Liberty's Edge

Do both abilities- the immediate step for ac +2, and the immediate drop for ac +4, require the use of one grit point?

Based on dodge as written, and comparing it to the writing in version 1.0, I read it as saying the step for +2 to ac costs a grit point, while the second part- dropping prone for +4- merely requires the 'slinger to have a grit point remaining.

Thoughts?

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Enevhar Aldarion wrote:
Mok wrote:
Mark Garringer wrote:
Gunslinger Playtest Round 2 Document wrote:
Advanced firearms may exist, but only as rare and wondrous items.
May is a nice way of saying, may not. The price of the Advanced revolver is too low for any 'sane' 'emergent' setting.

True, it does say "may" but since the guns were already established in Golarion canon, it just conveniently fits within the emergent model.

I was surprised at the price for the revolver. The pricing model for the advanced guns doesn't really scale with how the sidebar works.

And that canon has been revised with the new Inner Sea World Guide. Alkenstar and guns are now much younger than originally written in the 3.5 Campaign Setting. I have not seen the actual book yet, but from what James has posted in other threads, instead of thousands of years now it is maybe two or three hundred years that Alkenstar and firearms have been around. So using the same timeline for gun development from the real world, as a lot of Golarion is based on the real world, the most advanced gun designs in Golarion should be equivalent to late 1600's or early 1700's Earth.

late 1600's and 1700's would equate hto Wheellocks and Flintlocks, and to a lesser extent Matchlocks, whic fit perfectly into my vision of what this fantasy world with both horror and steampunk overtones should have.

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Razz wrote:


Hmm, it needs to be more clear.

1) Does that mean one can use Deadly Aim with a gun now?

2) Or does it mean when you use Deadly Aim with a gun, it is no longer resolved as a touch attack?

I hope for the latter, as that not only gives Deadly Aim back to gunslingers for more damage output, but also doesn't overpower it.

Then again, I don't think it'd be too overbalanced otherwise. The reload time for guns is still the drawback when compared to bows.

It was never considered a touch attack; it was always a standard ranged attack that bypassed armor/ natural armor bonuses, the same way a touch attack does. much the same way an "incorporeal touch attack" is not the same as a standard touch attack, since incorporeal touch attacks don't ignore force armor.

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Orc Bits wrote:

If you'd like an extra bit of realism, allow players to treat the Buckler as a 1d3 light martial bludgeoning weapon if wielded (held) in the off-hand. If you attack with the Buckler you lose the AC bonus for that round.

Or something like that.

Lol, since I began studying historical European martial arts, my Pathfinder friends are completely sick of hearing me say "historically it would be..." for example, historically the buckler was used as much to push and strike as it was used to parry/ block. and it buckled onto your belt to carry, but NEVER onto your arm to use- it was held in the hand.

The D&D version is some fantasy imagining, it is nothing like a historical buckler in either description or use.

Liberty's Edge

Thanatos95 wrote:
Basicly, you cast the spell, and it gives you a new attack option for the duration. The spell is affecting you, you then must use it. Chill touch is something you hit your opponet with, its just odd in that you can use it multiple times.

That doesnt really answer my question of whether it can be used on the same round it is cast.

Liberty's Edge

Mourningcloud wrote:

The spell burning gaze takes a standard action to cast, yet the spells description states that you may direct your burning gaze against a single creature as a standard action. Does this mean that you cannot direct your gaze during the round it is cast?

I know that when you cast a spell that allows you to make attacks as a standard action (such as chill touch), you can make the attack the round you cast it. However brining gaze is a somewhat different type of spell (fort save rather than attack).

So how would this work?

BUMP, please give me some help here.

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5 people marked this as FAQ candidate. 1 person marked this as a favorite.

The spell burning gaze takes a standard action to cast, yet the spells description states that you may direct your burning gaze against a single creature as a standard action. Does this mean that you cannot direct your gaze during the round it is cast?

I know that when you cast a spell that allows you to make attacks as a standard action (such as chill touch), you can make the attack the round you cast it. However brining gaze is a somewhat different type of spell (fort save rather than attack).

So how would this work?

Liberty's Edge

Greetings and Hotheres! In the far forgotten days of the Greatastic Living G'hawk campaign, I were that rare breed of wizardling war-elf, the mighty Gishbuckler!!

Calathael Roeth-Nin
"seal with the heart of an orca" -translated from Lendorian elvish

known to humans as Caladel

Swash 3/ Wiz 4/ Havoc mage 2/ Eldritch Knight 1 at retirement

Overcame that common problem of squishy Gishes being outshined by straight meleers by not trying to play as one, but instead playing the arcane swashbuckler. Grease the formians and tumble through it to full power attack them while they're still prone? Dance with his mirror images around the double-ax wielding minotaur? No Problem!

Cal was known for having a raven with Tourrete's Syndrome that spoke elvish (pretty sounding insults), and for failing to tumble at the WORST possible moment.

scribing truestrike in spellbook: 25 gold

Masterwork greatsword: 350 gold

Casting truestrike, and the next round full power attacking with a swift-cast blades of fire, and rolling a 1 on the attack, 3 STINKING TIMES: Priceless

STR 14 DEX 16+2 bumps CON 12 INT 16 WIS 8 CHA 8

Feats:
Free weapon finesse & scibe scroll, 1 power attack, 3 practiced spellcaster, 6 exotic weapon familiarity, 9 combat acrobat, wiz bonus: craft WI.

Started as a Swash, but skipped the finesse weapons; used a greatsword till 5th level, and tumbled into flanks to power attack for 1 (just to irk the DM), Cal was the only greatsword wielding power attacking grey elf anyone had ever seen.

At 6th, elven patience became its own reward: took 3rd level swash, weapon familiarity feat, and picked up my Elven Courtblade.

Signature attack: Whirling blade with Elven Courtblade. Swash gets int instead of str with finesseable weapons, and whirling blade lets you add int in addition to str, so hurl blade, power att for 2 with armbands of might, and damage looks like:
1d10+3 GMW + 4 (18 int) + 6 (int x 1 1/2 because 2 hnd weapon) +6 pow attact +1d6 swift cast critical strike vs flat-footed.

1d10+19+1d6, down a line of baddies, with one unlucky sob eating +3d6 (belt of 1 mighty blow), all with a threat range of 15-20 from crit strike.

once did 150 pts of damage from one whirling blade down a line of trolls and orc barbarians, at 7th level

Gishbucklers often always surprise other players, sometimes performing well above their expectations, and sometimes well below what they expect from a gish ("your str is only 14! WTH!")

Havoc mage gave advantage of few rounds spent self buffing (mirror image or sonic weapon cast same round as an attack) and a lot of little attack and spell, one-two punch combinations, usually first level blasts like Lesser orbs, grease, or glitterdust. Iteratives are iffy with a power attacking gish since they are no where near full bab, but havoc mage lets you cast a ranged touch 5d8 lesser orb of acid as your iterative- lower damage than the power attacking barbarian's, but it hardly ever misses (and magic missles never miss).

Thats my gish in a nutshell. Would love to get another go in Pathfinder, if only that stupid hand of the apprentice ability would let you use int for damage bonus instead of st (how does that make sense, anyway?)

Liberty's Edge

BobChuck wrote:


5) It can't wear armor and cast a spell and attack all in the same round.

a) Right, because that would be overpowered. The Havoc Mage was an insane class - free quickened spell of any level any time you make a full round attack? That's broken.

Not to split hairs, since this point is several days old, but this is incorrect. Havoc Mage can only cast a spell and make a single attack as a full round action. Thats one attack, and one spell. No iterative attacks, no twf. Havoc Mage was far from broken- it lacked full bab progression, and sacrificed a couple of caster levels to get the battlecast ability, which never worked with 8th or 9th level spells.

Liberty's Edge

Can someone clarify-so we retire when we hit 12, or when we level past 12?

This makes a big difference if you are playing a fighter 1/cleric X, or a gish, as it means no 6th level spells at all :(.

Deussu wrote:
I definitely prefer a lower cap. Lower level characters are easier to balance and are more fun anyways.

To each their own, but having a higher level cap just gives those of us who want to play higher level the option to do so. Those who do not favor such play are welcome to retire their characters and start new ones.

Also I am sure there will be no shortage of participants who will want to write adventures for higher level characters.

As far as higher level characters going powermad and making too many waves, there are many ways to control this in a large shared world campaign, and 13th level characters are no more likely to break a campaign than 11th (especially if they keep the uber-rapid advancement rate of 3xp/ level; high level characters won't have a chance to break anything!)

Liberty's Edge

Here is one trick often employed by Living Greyhawk writers to beef up the level of their encounters-give every baddie with class levels a level of Warrior. This does not bump their CR, but gives some bab and hp goodness, as well as another feat if they hit a feat level.

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Russell Akred wrote:

No it isn't a race to high level. I don't like much after level 11 anyways but the age of worms campaign one has to pay attention to party level. I have notced a extreme level death occurs when party members get to low on level. Age of worms has been a great campaign but almost to powerful. The lich battle was momentous.

The PFS progression seems to...

Honestly, I am a little disappointed with the level 12 cap.

I think level 14 is a better level cap, especially if our chracters are going to be leveling after so few adventures. You will barely get to know what they can do at a given level and Bang, they level up and get new shiny toy guns to play with.

We will have just really gotten into our characters when they are retired. Maybe I am a bit slow, but I don't really get to know my character- in terms of both roleplay and abilities, until around 7th or 8th level. That leaves maybe 12 adventures and bye-bye.

My suggestion would be to change the amount required per level:

3 xp (as is current) for levels 2-4, 4 XP for levels 5-7, 5 xp for 8-10, 6 xp for 11&12.

Thats only 15 more xp until retirement, but lets face it, in a living game system that is the blink of an eye. I don't even kick out the cash and time to buy and paint up a metal mini on a character I play in less than 30 adventures.

Liberty's Edge

Okay, so call me dumb, (don't jump on that too hard Tom) but here I got all excited about playing my cleric with the new stuff from the Beta, and then I learn that I am limited to the stuff from the PH.

After (or even during!) year 0, are their plans to convert our Society chracters to the class variants in the Pathfinder Chronicles Campaign Setting?