?in what way, wiz/cleric needs 3 good stats Int, Wis, Cha(heal bomb) but ur gonna enter the MT more quickly than Sor/Oracle. With Sor/Oracle you only need the one good stat (Cha) but ur gonna wait two more levels to enter MT. Both are gonna have tons of avail spells.
Need more info on what u think better means, plz!
whats a better mystic theurge build, wizard/cleric or sorcerer/oracle?
Consider that the MT waits a LONG time to be halfway effective. It's a hard road with a lot of sacrifice. Taking the Sor/Ora route is even worse, as you'd be stuck with 1st level spells until 7th level. That's right, when a primary spellcaster is lobbing 4th level spells, you, the newly minted MT, finally gets 2nd level spells. The only upside is that it leverages ONE stat for both caster abilities.
Also, the Oracle never gets more benefits (i.e. compensation) out of her Curse, which hurts.
But the real game-ender, for me at least, is that a wiz/clr build has maximum versatility. He can change his entire spell load-out every single day. Versatility is the MT's real power - a Sor/Ora/MT isn't getting this, as they would have perhaps only a few more spells than if they went straight Sor or straight Ora.
Witch/Druid/Mystic Theurge.
Thoughts? One of my PCs wants to play this.
Witch/Druid has a similar problem (but to a lesser degree) than the sorcerer/oracle. Not so much the even worse caster progression, but the complete loss of special abilities. This includes the stuff your animal companion and familiar would get, hampering them even more.
I engineered a feat that allows him to let his MT levels work as Witch levels for the purposes of his familiar's bonus spells.
And then he was going to take a domain, and I was thinking of a feat for that, too.
It is a bad class combo and we both know it, so we're trying to figure out ways for it to not suck through some homebrew maybe.
?in what way, wiz/cleric needs 3 good stats Int, Wis, Cha(heal bomb) but ur gonna enter the MT more quickly than Sor/Oracle.
Wiz/Clr/MT doesn't really need Charisma - a 2d6 (4d6 with periapt of positive channeling) area heal isn't worth deliberately pumping a stat for. Certainly doesn't hurt of course.
Wizard/Cleric is the classic (or cleric/magic-user anyhow), and gets you there quickly, with only channel/domains/school-powers lost. Delaying for one class, like taking Sorc4, isn't so bad if that will be your main casting focus anyways, but definitely not both (though I have seen an effective Drd5/Wiz5).
I always highly recommend players and DMs look at in the SRD, as a simple/un-broken solution to most of the issues with Mystic Theurge type builds: adding caster levels together, for caster strength.
I engineered a feat that allows him to let his MT levels work as Witch levels for the purposes of his familiar's bonus spells.And then he was going to take a domain, and I was thinking of a feat for that, too.
It is a bad class combo and we both know it, so we're trying to figure out ways for it to not suck through some homebrew maybe.
I have been meaning to ask something similar on the boards myself, whats a homebrew way to not let the MT fall too far behind the curve. What about a Feat that let your MT lvls count for cleric levels for domain powers and Channel?
I guess you could do similar stuff for sorcerers, like the Dragon Disciple works with Dranic bloodline.
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Sorcerer / Oracle gimps you caster level so badly that there is no point in going MT at all.
The only valid build of MT is Wiz/Clr.
Sorc/Oracle/MST Stats needed: Cha, Dex, Con
Wis/Clr/MST Stats needed: Int, Wis, Dex Con(and Cha if you want to Channel often).
If by 'valid' you mean 'can get 9th level spells,' how many games actually let you play to a level high enough to get them, multiclass or not?
I'm not saying it isn't a valid way to go, just that it isn't the only one.
The easiest way to make the MT better or good is the simplest. Make the pre-req only level 1 spells. Therefore, it's only the loss of 2 caster levels instead of 4. Losing 1 spell level should make the class actually fun to play instead of being a high level only class.
It wouldnt be the loss of 2 lvls, if you use the wording "Level 1 spells" then lvl 1 wiz and lvl 1 cleric would fulfill the requirements. That too powerful. At 3rd lvl your taking lvls in MT. You would be getting new spell lvls at the rate of a Orcale or sorcerer all the while having divine and arcane spells.
I thought of saying required class level 2 in arcane class or Divine class. Then you could MT at lvl 5 being: wiz/cleric/MT 2/2/1. This combine with what Majuba would make it very appealing. But still might be a bit too potent.
The simplesst fix would be to require a skill with a minimum skill you would want anyhow. Require 1st level spells from both, then raise the requirement of X ranks in skills. In Slacker2010's case, it would be 4 know [arcana] amd 4 know [religion]. I would perhaps make it 5 for balance, as well as making a sorc build more appealing. Just my 2 CP though. Thoughts?
EDIT: We always use Arcana Unearthed's Magic Rating system. It only makes sense a caster wouldn't stop learning a little on the side of how to make their current spells a little stronger as they grow.
MT is so-so most of its levels but gains alot of power in epic levels, i played one into teens, a sorc/shugenja 3.5 version. I ended up taking the ultimate magus and revamping it for a theurge style build. Worked really well, big issue with theurge is that it requires so much that lag behind. Are very verstile and i do like changes to new theurge, but i do think requirements need fiddled with to make it more viable even if... its gain +1 in primary caster class and +1 in secondary caster class every other level. One day have to sit down and see if is a viable way to make class work in lower level.
The only valid build of MT is Wiz/Clr.Sorc/Oracle/MST Stats needed: Cha, Dex, Con
Wis/Clr/MST Stats needed: Int, Wis, Dex Con(and Cha if you want to Channel often).If by 'valid' you mean 'can get 9th level spells,' how many games actually let you play to a level high enough to get them, multiclass or not?
I'm not saying it isn't a valid way to go, just that it isn't the only one.
But playing the Sor/Ora/MT in the low and mid levels is where it hurts the worst.
I'll correct myself from an earlier post, as I mis-remembered the entry requirements for MT; you'll have 2nd level spells before you get MT (I was thinking 3rd level caster, not 2nd level spells).
BUT, you have to be a Sor4/Ora4 to qualify for it. So you're a 9th level character when you're Sor4/Ora4/MT1, and you're STILL casting only 2nd level spells (@ 5th caster level). Compare with a Clr3/Wiz3/MT3 at the same level, casting 3rd level spells, or a Pure Wiz9 casting 5th level spells.
Bump upwards one level and it's Sor4/Ora4/MT2, 3rd level spells, or Clr3/Wiz3/MT4, 4th level spells (and Wiz10 with 5th level). This progression continues - the 'optimal' MT build lags 1-2 spell levels levels behind a single class character, while the Sor/Ora combo lags 2-3 spell levels.
IOW, the Sor/Ora build gets attribute efficiency, at the cost of a whole level of spells and one caster level (vs. the Clr/Wiz combo). It's a very bad path at low levels (at Sor4/Ora4/MT1, you have 6/4 spells per day from each, plus bonus spells, let's call it 8/5 (20 CHA?), for a total of 16/10. A Clr3/Wiz3/MT3 will have 3/3/2, plus domain, school and bonus spells...call it 5/5/3 each, or 10/10/6. That's right, the Clr/Wiz combo has as many spells per day AND higher level spells. At the next levels:
Sor4/Ora4/MT2 = 16/12/8 spells (total)
Clr3/Wiz3/MT4 = 12/10/8/4 (doubtful he has 18 INT and WIS)
Sor4/Ora4/MT3 = 16/14/10
Clr3/Wiz3/MT5 = 12/10/10/6
You can juggle the attributes a little bit to get a few more CHA bonus spells - I'm assuming CHA 20 vs INT/WIS16, but the Clr/Wis has almost as many spells per day as the Sor/Ora, and what's more, they're HIGHER LEVEL SPELLS and the Clr/Wiz can change them every single day. IMO versatility is the key appeal of the MT; he has the room to take all those 'I might need this' spells. Less so with a spontaneous caster, whose spell selection is of key importance.
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I made a second-level "heal-bot" character as a DMPC for a one-shot campaign a couple of days ago. I did Bard/Oracle, which could go Bard 4/Oracle 6/MT 10 and have 20 pounds of heal spells per day.
I'm not arguing that the spontaneous builds are effective, but I just thought it was funny to do use a bard for mystic thuerge. This build has the added advantage of a (slightly) higher BAB, but the disadvantage of really limited spells (destroying the point of mystic thuerge).
But I digress. I'd agree that because of higher-level spell access (up to 9th if you emphasize one of the two) that Clr/Wiz/MT is probably better.
If you just want arcane for some back-up blasting and want to emphasize divine, Oracle 6/Sorc 4/MT 10 would give you level 8th spells for oracle, 7th level for sorc and still give one one stage of curse reward. Compared to 8/8 or 9/7 for Wiz/Clr it really isn't THAT far behind. It still lags like crazy in mid levels, though, since the Wiz/Clr can take MT 2 levels earlier.
Oddly enough, level 18 is equal between the two (unless you emphasize one caster type over the other) as both have 7th/7th spell level access.
EDIT: If you have a high-enough power campaign to spare some points for physical attributes, totally go Sorc/Oracle or Bard/Oracle as you can use melee/ranged combat with buff spells to make up for your lack of high level spells. I recommend Arcane Strike for that little extra "oomph" as well.
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The problem with Ora/Sor has nothing to with attributes or amount of spells per day.
It's all about you being Ora4/Sor4/MT1 and having access just to 2nd level spells. At 9th character level. A straight caster has at this point 5th level spells, including such useful ones as: Fly, Teleport, Overland Flight, Scrying, True Seeing, Plane Shift.
Being one spell level behind the possible maximum is not good, being two is bad, three = strikeout. You can't get there from here if your party needs a quick escape and all you can do is bull's strength everyone.
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The problem with Ora/Sor has nothing to with attributes or amount of spells per day.
It's all about you being Ora4/Sor4/MT1 and having access just to 2nd level spells. At 9th character level. A straight caster has at this point 5th level spells, including such useful ones as: Fly, Teleport, Overland Flight, Scrying, True Seeing, Plane Shift.
Being one spell level behind the possible maximum is not good, being two is bad, three = strikeout. You can't get there from here if your party needs a quick escape and all you can do is bull's strength everyone.
Exactly, the Mystic Theurge is already a class which suffers from the lowered spell caster/ access to higher level spells. Most people do not realize this, and try to jump on the 'PrC train' ASAP; and this leads to characters who, albeit interesting from a role-playing point of view, are often of low contribute to the party.
My humble opinion is NOT TO enter the PrC at low levels, but spread levels from the two spellcasting classes and the PrC in order to minimize the spellcasting lag.
For example, let's take a classic Mystic Theurge, Wizard 5/ Cleric 5/ MT 10. This character at 20th level has the spellcasting ability of both a Cleric 15 and a Wizard 15. Although not a powerhouse (a better build could be either Wizard 7/ Cleric 3/ MT 10 or Wizard 3/ Cleric 7/ MT 10, which would give 9th level spells of one spellcasting class and 7th level spells of the other), he can defend itself quite well - having 8th level spells from both spellcasting classes. However, it suffers A LOT in the 4th-9th level range; it can be played, but you have to endure (and know that your benefit to the party would be lowered). Overall, it can be played - but you have to be patient, and play in a party where your gimped spellcasting ability is tolerated, both power-wise and role-wise (the only worst thing in playing a less-than-optimal character are the sarcastic comments of your party directed towards him - and yes, I made that mistake in the past, too, of being a j**k towards players who guided less-than-optimal characters).
I made a MT starting at 5th level, being a Wizard 3/ Cleric 2 and going on from that point with the 'classic' build - currently, I'm 12th level, W 3/ C 3 / MT6, with both 5th level spells at 12th level (which is only 1 spell level below the maximum allowed for a 12th level character - the worst moment are the odd levels, where full casters take the new spell level and I lag behind, but IT CAN be managed somehow). It had hard moments and fun moments - overall, I am satisfied of such a character, but I have to admit that my group never pointed towards me saying 'boooh! what a crappy spell list you have !' (I had to improvise with lower level spells more often than not - having another full Cleric in the party somehow lessened my lower-level spell tier, however).
However, if a player would take 5 levels of Wizard, then 3 levels of Cleric (or the opposite), it would access the MT later, but having 3rd level spells earlier (Fly, Fireball, Dispel Magic for the Arcane build; Dispel Magic, Cure Serious Wounds, Invisibility Purge for the Divine build). If the character wants to have the 17/ 13 spell progression, this is (IMHO) the way to follow - having 4th level spells at 7th level, then a slight lag on the 8-10 range (when he takes the other class), and then starting the PrC which basically improves your 'main' spellcasting class and improves the 'secondary' spellcasting class.
For the Oracle/ Sorcerer build, which is definetely harder to follow, having access to your best spells is the only suggestion I can give. Making a Sorc4 / Oracle 4/ MT 1 gives you basically only 2nd level spells at 9th level... which is horrible (to put it simple). Taking 6 levels in one class and 4 levels in the other (possibly mixing them, but I personally suggest to pump up only one of them and then starting the other) at least gives you 3rd level spells - of course, living with only 3rd level spells at 9th-10th level is bad (again, IMHO), but still better than having only 2nd-level ones !
However, I personally think that the best way to multiclass Oracle/ Sorcerer/ MT is NOT to complete the PrC. Take 8-10 levels of one class, 4 of the other, and then 6-8 levels of MT. You will end with 8th level spells of your main spellcasting class, 5th-6th level spells of your secondary spellcasting class, and some class benefits which you would have missed otherwise (more Bloodline Powers, Spells and Feats as Sorcerer, more Revelations, Mystery spells and lessened Curse effects as Oracle).
Just my 2c.
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MT would make much more sense if the entry requirements would be:
Able to cast 3rd-level spells of one type and 1st-level spells of the other type.
This way you could kick it in at eg. Wiz5/Clr1 and end up with effective 19 CL in one class and 15 CL in the other. At 9th level you could be Wiz5/Clr/1/MT3 with 4th lvl spells, much less gimping.
MT would make much more sense if the entry requirements would be:
Able to cast 3rd-level spells of one type and 1st-level spells of the other type.
This way you could kick it in at eg. Wiz5/Clr1 and end up with effective 19 CL in one class and 15 CL in the other. At 9th level you could be Wiz5/Clr/1/MT3 with 4th lvl spells, much less gimping.
This would make for a vastly overpowered Character. You would be progressing in spells as fast as a Oracle or Sorcerer all the while picking up a whole second (though weaker) set of spells.
My wife did this with a cleric 3/Bard 4.
By focusing on utility with additional healing from the bard combined with devoting her cleric spells and bard songs to buffing the physical beaters made it quite bearable to the party. Also countersong and the use of command undead to provide meat bag zombies and eventually a shadow helped a lot too.
Taking the focus off of damaging spells the only thing we have missed sorely is dispell magic.
Now shes taking MT levels and because she has been focued on utility the damage spells are just icing.
My wife did this with a cleric 3/Bard 4.
By focusing on utility with additional healing from the bard combined with devoting her cleric spells and bard songs to buffing the physical beaters made it quite bearable to the party. Also countersong and the use of command undead to provide meat bag zombies and eventually a shadow helped a lot too.
Taking the focus off of damaging spells the only thing we have missed sorely is dispell magic.
Now shes taking MT levels and because she has been focued on utility the damage spells are just icing.
At 9th level (so 2 lvls in MT) this allows her to just get 3rd level spells on the cleric side. Bard side she still only has 2nd level spells. This combo might have little better BAB but still falls far behind. From most optimal guides on bards (I admit I dont play them) using up a standard action to start your song is a heavy price. To get it to a move action isnt till 7th level. Effectively your casting bless as a standard action.
None of your bard abilities are going to progress while your taking levels in MT, so your still just a 4th level bard for Bardic Knowledge and anything ability you use that has a DC check is going to be really easy to save.
Even as a 13th level character the bard spell progression is only up to 4th level spells. While most 13th level casters have access to 7th level spells. I really dont think this character can pull their own weight in a 4 person party. Im not saying for Flavor sake or you couldnt enjoy playing it "just for fun" but its so far behind the curve you cant make an effective group member in a 4 person party. (My opinion)
The simplesst fix would be to require a skill with a minimum skill you would want anyhow. Require 1st level spells from both, then raise the requirement of X ranks in skills. In Slacker2010's case, it would be 4 know [arcana] amd 4 know [religion]. I would perhaps make it 5 for balance, as well as making a sorc build more appealing. Just my 2 CP though. Thoughts?
EDIT: We always use Arcana Unearthed's Magic Rating system. It only makes sense a caster wouldn't stop learning a little on the side of how to make their current spells a little stronger as they grow.
BRILLIANT!!
At first glance I disregarded your statement cause with only 4 k[arcana] amd 4 k[religion] you could still take 3 wizard/ 1 cleric to for fill the requirements this would still be really powerfully. Forcing someone to take 2 classes in each puts the PrC a full spell level behind, the correct sacrifice to obtain this flexibility.
But then i realized why stop at 4 ranks or even 5. You can effectively push the 2nd set of spells back as far as you need to balance it. Example, 10 ranks (most it could be) would be too much. Who would give up a level of their primary casting class for spells so far behind. With this example you would have 5th level Arcane spells with 1st level Divine spells. Spells 4 levels lower than current content your running is not very helpful or give you much flexibility.
Naturally cause this is Homebrew its up to the Gamemasters discretion, but I think 6 or 7 ranks in each would be in line with other PrC's. Below i have the lowest level you could be in each PrC.
Arcane Archer = 8th level
Arcane Trickster = 7th level
Assassin = 6th level
Dragon Disciple = 6th level
Duelist = 7th level
Eldritch Knight = 7th level
Loremaster = 8th level
Mystic Theurge = 7th level
Path Chronicler = 6th level
Shadow Dancer = 6th level
Average starting level you could be is 6.8, so i think 7th level would be a good spot to allow this. 9th and 12th level are both examples used in the post above so i will uses these to show level progression.
9th Level Character: 5 Wizard/ 1 Cleric/ 3 MT = 4th / 2nd level spells, this is only one level behind a pure casting wizard and i don't think 2nd level spells from the 2nd branch is over powered.
12th Level Character: 5 Wizard/ 1 Cleric/ 6 MT = 6th / 4th level spells, even levels will see this build better off. It will have same spell level of wizard of same level, like a sorcerer, and have spells 2 levels lower in the 2nd branch. This will give it less spells of primary branch but balance would be in the number of spells and versatility.
Any thoughts on this? Maybe from any experienced Gamemasters?
Tossing in my own couple of pennies.
To me, the MT is a very "niche" class. If your group has 4 people, one shouldn't be a MT.
You should get the 4 food groups and move on. the MT really has two sweet spots.
One is the 3rd and last group member. You have a meat shield and a skill monkey and .. just one guy left. Sure, MT isn't as solid as wizard or cleric but for a campaign he's both. It doesn't -matter- what the "full casters" are doing because there isn't someone to compare against. He is The Caster. Its actually a perfect fit for this.
The second "perfect fit" is as the 5th party member. As the 5th he fulfills alot of the same rolls as the bard, albeit in a different fashion. He isn't a full caster but fits the role well of being secondary to both the arcane and the divine. You have the other two party members to build on while you are using a *ton* of slightly lower level of spells. To me, I would either concentrate hard on one or the other (rather than going 5/5/10 I would probably go 7/3/10). Which class you chose to be the front wouldn't really matter, you'd still be very effective overall.
Add more players and to me, you are just better off 'stacking" a role and going from there. (i.e. if you have 6-7 at the table just let there be 2 full arcane or 2 full divine). Otherwise you'll never get to shine. at least, imo.
Just my thoughts.
-S
The biggest problem with the Bard is that while the spells are useful, their class abilities are really one of their biggest assets.
The same is true of the Druid. (only less so since the druid is a full caster on top of all their fun abilities).
Druid/Bard/MT will get spells yes- but you lose a ton of the other things that make the classes what they are.
If you have fun with it though and aren't dragging the party down.. Well, that is the important part :)
It doesn't offset the lowered spellcasting entirely, but it is worth noting that the sheer lack of MAD on a Ora/Sor means your DC's still won't be horrible. That being said, I still don't recommend it. I tried it in 3.5 with a Favored Soul/Sorcerer build and it was painful.
Speaking of 3.5, if you are allowed 3.5 material I would recommend looking at Arcane Hierophant. It has a medium BAB, wild shape, armored spellcasting, and other goodies along with being a double-caster. The only added restriction is that you have druid levels.
I'm playing my second pathfinder theurge, both taken from first level to the heights of power. What the theurge lacks is a reliable means to boost his caster level.
Thats it, the second level spells are not that strenuous, the knowledge skills are not a problem. People playing Theurges need to work with their teams during their formative levels and the reward will make it worthwhile unless you are at a table of min maxers.
if you want to have any power then Wiz/Cler
if you want to be cool then gnome pyromaniac/warden; nature oracle, crossblooded verdant/groveborn primordial /fire sorceror....as folk are confounded by the description you give them your party rogue has had time to sneak round the back and stab them!!!!
and max up your cha till it squeals
Really its Wizard/Cleric or Wizard/Druid,
Wizard/Druid is all about using feats and spells to turn your Animal companion into a monster, Wizard/Cleric for pretty much anything else.
Your stats are in order: First casting stat, Second casting stat, Con, Dex, Cha, Str. Channel energy is never going to be worth it so only increase Cha if you have a legitimate mechanical purpose.
Never ever take a spontaneous class as the casting stat is weak and the nature of the spell selection completely counters the strength of the PRC.
I agree that mystic theurges are generally terrible, but I will point out that you can have a wisdom-based sorcerer by taking the Empyreal bloodline - so you could do, say, sorcerer/druid and double down on wisdom.
You've still got miserable spell progression, but at least you don't have hideous double stat dependency.
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Okay, so I know that this isn't exactly what you wanted but if he wants to be both Divine and Arcane, go with the Sorcerer archetype Razmiran Priest. Once he gets to lvl 9 he can cast any spell from any divine list as long as he has the scroll without using up the scroll.
The downside? you don't get divine spells until 9th lvl. The benefit? There is no multi classing involved and you have full Sorcerer class and spell progression. And, if he wants to be more of a cleric? Pick up the Martyred Bloodline from blood of Angeles.
The Razmiran Priest beats the MT any day.
Well, since it's already been necro'd it can't hurt to add: now with the new FAQ saying that spell-like abilities can function as spells for purposes of prerequisites (including Mystic Theurge) it's probably a more attractive option...