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Ok so for 62k, I can get:
+2 Amulet of Mighty Fists - 20k
+4 Belt of Strength - 16k
+2 Mithral Breastplate - 8150
+2 Cloak of Resistance - 4k
+2 Ring of Protection - 8k
+1 Amulet of Natural Armor - 2k
Handy Haversack - 2k
2k in miscellaneous
So defenses are:
AC 23 Tch 14 FF 21
I just don't see where I squeeze out any more AC since this is a damage competition. I could probably up the amulet of NA to +2 if I don't go mithral on the breastplate and take a speed hit, but that makes pouncing and full attacking perhaps a little harder.
AC 23 meets the minimums as described by MiB back on page 3 (I think).
AC 23 meets the minimums as described by MiB back on page 3 (I think).
It was 22 or 23 IIRC, and barbarians have the extra HP, so I think others have been counting that as the before rage AC.
Contributor, RPG Superstar 2008 Top 4, Legendary Games
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This build is pure barbarian natural attacking frenzy using the new options from the APG. HOrcs get a primary bite attack by giving up the Ferocity trait, gain two primary claw attacks from Lesser Beast Totem, and a primary gore attack from Lesser Fiend Totem.
Gore and bite overlap, you get one or the other but not both. Much the same way that a troll using a two-handed sword would not get claw attacks as well as the sword swings.
Also you'll want to spend some resources on AC as yours, as you admit, is way below accepted levels for this comparison.
-James
Also, check p. 74 again. You can only have one type of totem. Beast OR fiend, not both.
Given the gore/bite overlap, you'd want to be a tusky half-orc (bite) with beast totem (claw) and forget the gore attack.
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You are right about the totem thing. I missed that. However, we have already hashed out whether you can use a gore and bite and I referenced humanoid creatures from the bestiary that can do both as a full attack.
I may have to figure out how to get the claws elsewhere (Aspect of the beast) or just take the hit.
Hmm, biting and full greatsword attacking...
I am still mulling a v2.0 of this guy since the current concept had some flaws pointed out.
Just remember the severe limitations on mixing natural attacks with melee weapons/unarmed strikes on pg. 182 of the Core Rulebook:
You can make attacks with natural weapons in combination with a melee weapon and unarmed strikes, so long as a different limb is used for each attack... When you make additional attacks in this way, all of your natural attacks are treated as secondary natural attacks, using your base attack bonus minus 5 and adding only 1/2 of your Strength modifier on damage rolls. In addition, all of your attacks made with melee weapons and unarmed strikes are made as if you were two-weapon fighting.
You're looking at a -2 penalty on attack rolls with the melee weapon and -7 on the natural attacks, with the Two-Weapon Fighting feat (-4/-13 without the feat). The bite from the Animal Fury rage power can be combined with the claws of the Beast Totem or the gore of the Fiend Totem; however, you cannot combine both a bite and a gore with a melee weapon, since they use the same "limb."
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This build is pure barbarian natural attacking frenzy using the new options from the APG. HOrcs get a primary bite attack by giving up the Ferocity trait, gain two primary claw attacks from Lesser Beast Totem, and the ability to throw rocks with Lesser Hurling. This build reaches ultimate scariness at 10 when Greater Beast Totem ups claw damage, crit multiplier and ADDS POUNCE! Throw in a smattering of elemental damage and we have a DPR leader.
Ability Scores:
STR: 22 (+6) (15 base, +2 racial, +1 level, +4 belt) (26 w/ Rage)
DEX: 14 (+2) (13 base, +1 level)
CON: 14 (+2) (18 w/ Rage)
INT: 10 (+0)
WIS: 12 (+1)
CHA: 8 (-1)
HP: 95 HP (10d12+20)
Saving Throws
Fort: +12 (+14 Raging) Ref: +8 Will: +7 (+9 raging)
AC: 25 (23 w/ Raging) (+8 Armor, +3 NA, +2 Def, +2 Dex)
Attacks: 2 Claws +18 1d8+16+1d6 elemental (20/x3)
Bite +17 1d4+16+1d6 elemental (20/x2)
Hurl +17 vs. Touch 2d6+14+1d6 elemental (20/x2)
Initiative: +2
Racial Abilities:
Toothy
Class Abilities:
Rages (Beast Totem [Lesser to Greater], Elemental Rage [Lesser, Regular], Lesser Hurling, Hurling Charge)
Pounce
Everything else is secondary
BAB: +10 CMB: +16 (+18 raging) CMD: 28 (30 raging)
Feats:
Power Attack
Extra Rage Powerx2
Weapon Focus (Claw)
Improved Critical (Claw)
Skills:
Some stuff
Gear:
+2 Amulet of Mighty Fists - 20k
+4 Belt of Strength - 16k
+2 Mithral Breastplate - 8150
+2 Cloak of Resistance - 4k
+2 Ring of Protection - 8k
Handy Haversack - 2k
4k in miscellaneous
Damage:
Claws:
4.5+8+2+6+3.5=24
2*[(.75*24)+(.75*.1*2*24)]=43.2
2*[(.85*24)+(.85*.1*2*24)]=48.96 (Charging)
Bite:
2.5+8+2+6+3.5=22
(.7*22)+(.7*.05*22)=16.17
(.8*22)+(.8*.05*22)=18.48 (Charging)
Rock Throw:
This assumes missing on 1 vs. touch and saving on 12+. For CR 10, the good save is 13 and the bad 9, so on average you need a 12 to save on DC23 with +11 avg. It also assumes that your character carries a number of small rocks around because you will often be in situations where they can't just be picked up off the ground. This also assumes that the hurled weapon from Hurling Charge is the improvised weapon from Lesser Hurling and can be drawn if carried.
7[small 2d6 rock]+8+6+3.5=24.5
.55*[(24.5*.95)+(24.5*.95*.05)]+.5*.45*[(24.5*.95)+(24.5*.95*.05)]=18.94 (Charging)
Total (Claw, Claw, Bite):59.37
Total (Claw, Claw, Bite w/o elemental):50.5
Total (w/ Hurling Charge and Pounce):86.38
+1 Damage = +2.5DPR (+3.65 charging)
+1 Attack = +3.5DPR (+4 charging)
Additional Attack (claw) = +18.45DPR (+24.48 charging)
Hmm, biting and full greatsword attacking...
I am still mulling a v2.0 of this guy since the current concept had some flaws pointed out.
Just remember the severe limitations on mixing natural attacks with melee weapons/unarmed strikes on pg. 182 of the Core Rulebook:
You can make attacks with natural weapons in combination with a melee weapon and unarmed strikes, so long as a different limb is used for each attack... When you make additional attacks in this way, all of your natural attacks are treated as secondary natural attacks, using your base attack bonus minus 5 and adding only 1/2 of your Strength modifier on damage rolls. In addition, all of your attacks made with melee weapons and unarmed strikes are made as if you were two-weapon fighting.You're looking at a -2 penalty on attack rolls with the melee weapon and -7 on the natural attacks, with the Two-Weapon Fighting feat (-4/-13 without the feat). The bite from the Animal Fury rage power can be combined with the claws of the Beast Totem or the gore of the Fiend Totem; however, you cannot combine both a bite and a gore with a melee weapon, since they use the same "limb."
That's innacurate.
While it isn't in the rulebook, Jason has explicitly said he plans to fix the uncapped-manufactured-weapons loophole in the Eidolon, so I wouldn't get too crazy with billion-weapon-attack Eidolons in a serious DPR comparison.
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Some thoughts:
Permanent Enlarge person shouldn't be factored into this calculation because anyone could get it cast on them. Furthermore, your character should be looked at in a bubble and you needed to find a wizard to cast this.
Evolution Surge doesn't work because it's 1 min/level and you need to be at least 10 min/level to work in this forum.
As previously said, putting a weapon in a natural attacking limb should not allow you to go beyond the number of natural attacks limit.
Your calculations for natural attacks do not take into account the secondary natural attack penalties and the two weapon fighting penalties. Being multi-limbed, multiattack should take the place of TWF in this case, but you still need to take the penalty for mixing natural attacks and manufactured attacks. I believe this means you should have -5 (secondary natural attack) and -2 (multiattack penalty).
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From page 182 of the Core Rulebook:
You can make attacks with natural weapons in
combination with attacks made with a melee weapon and
unarmed strikes, so long as a different limb is used for
each attack. For example, you cannot make a claw attack
and also use that hand to make attacks with a longsword.
When you make additional attacks in this way, all of your
natural attacks are treated as secondary natural attacks,
using your base attack bonus minus 5 and adding only 1/2
of your Strength modifier on damage rolls. In addition,
all of your attacks made with melee weapons and unarmed
strikes are made as if you were two-weapon fighting.
Pinky, the rules of this thread are pretty clear, and RtrnofdMax is right, you broke some of them.
no magic items limited on a per-day or consumable basis.
Buffs are part of your baseline if you can apply them yourself, and they either have a duration of 10 min/level or longer or can be applied as a swift/immediate/free action.
That's innacurate.Hmm, biting and full greatsword attacking...
I am still mulling a v2.0 of this guy since the current concept had some flaws pointed out.
Just remember the severe limitations on mixing natural attacks with melee weapons/unarmed strikes on pg. 182 of the Core Rulebook:
You can make attacks with natural weapons in combination with a melee weapon and unarmed strikes, so long as a different limb is used for each attack... When you make additional attacks in this way, all of your natural attacks are treated as secondary natural attacks, using your base attack bonus minus 5 and adding only 1/2 of your Strength modifier on damage rolls. In addition, all of your attacks made with melee weapons and unarmed strikes are made as if you were two-weapon fighting.You're looking at a -2 penalty on attack rolls with the melee weapon and -7 on the natural attacks, with the Two-Weapon Fighting feat (-4/-13 without the feat). The bite from the Animal Fury rage power can be combined with the claws of the Beast Totem or the gore of the Fiend Totem; however, you cannot combine both a bite and a gore with a melee weapon, since they use the same "limb."
Cite?
I specifically referenced the page number in the Core Rulebook and provided a quote.
There is a different set of rules in the bestiary (and the universal monster rules in the PRD, which I linked above).
Monsters =/= characters. (or at least not necessarily)
Also, the universal monster rules for natural attacks do not say anything about "two-weapon penalties do not apply" or any other wording that would invalidate the Core Rulebook. The text in the Core Rulebook on natural attacks is more detailed and complete, while the text in the Bestiary is a summary.
Saying the exact text from the Core Rulebook is inaccurate for creating a character, without some other reference that specifically supports your argument does not prove your position.
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Evolution Surge doesn't work because it's 1 min/level and you need to be at least 10 min/level to work in this forum.
Look at it this way.
You have one round to do XXX damage and can only have 10 min/ level and hour/ level buffs on in advance.
A normal character gets a swift, move, and standard action or swift and full.
A summoner gets 6 actions per round, in that same single round he can cast the buff, and have the eidolon get a full attack action in.
One of the benefits of summoner is efficiency of actions (casting and attacking simuntaneously).
Did you look at the FAQ?
That's a citation, as I was asking for. Thank you.
Just saying "the rules in the Bestiary aren't quite the same," without referencing the full context, doesn't help those who use the print versions as their primary source. I may be an IT professional, but I don't want to spend all my time looking at a computer screen...
Regarding the action of the Summoner casting a spell on his Eidelon to increase it's damage. This to me seems perfectly within the spirit of this thread.
Imagine if I created an summoner and an eidolon who both used bows and got 8 attacks between the two of them. These attacks would be combined for the purposes of DPR would they not? Just as the actions from a Druid and their Animal Companion are counted together.
Well let's toy a little with the APG's Mounted Fury Barbarian:
Sigfreid, 10 lvl Human Barbarian
Ability Scores
All stats asume rage is active
STR 24 (+7) (15 +2 racial +1 level +4 raging +2 item)
DEX 14 (+2) (13 +1 level)
CON 18 (+4) (14 +4 raging)
INT 10 (+0)
WIS 12 (+1)
CHA 08 (-1)
HP: 10d12 +50 (aprox 115)
Initiative: (+2 Dex, +4 Feat, +3 Sixth Sense, +2)
Saving Throws:
F 14 R 7 W 8
AC: 23 - Touch 11, Flatfooted 21 (+9 breastplate +3, +2 Dex, +3 natural, +1 deflection, -2 rage)
Attack (normal): +2 furios lance +18/+13 1d8+23 dmg (20/X3)
Attack (CHARGE): +2 furios lance +20/+15 3d8+69 dmg (20/X3)
Special Attacks:
-Power Attack (-3/+9)*[smaller]included in attack
-Pounce
-Spirited Charge
Racial Traits:
-Bouns Feat
-Heart of Wilderness
Archtypes:
-Mounted Fury
-Supersticious (for the initiave boost mainly, but I prefer Savage Barbarian for the Conanesqueness)
Class Fetures:
-Rage: +4STR +4CON -2 to AC and +2 to Will saves
-Fast Rider: +10ft to mount speed
-Sixth Sense: +3 to initiative and a +3 to AC in the Surprise round
-Bestial Mount: Animal Companion at an effective druid level equal to barbarian level -4 (Boon Companion raises this to -0)
-Keen senses: low-light vision, darkvision
BAB: 10 CMB: 17 CMD: 28
Rage powers:
-Lesser Beast Totem
-Ferocious Mount
-Beast Totem
-Greater Ferocious Mount
-Greater Beast Totem
Feats:
-Power Attack(b)
-Mounted Combat
-Ride by Attack
-Boon Companion (from Pathfinder Chronicles: Seekers of Secret)
-Spirited Carge
-Improved Initiative (Improved Critical(Lance) would do better for damage however you seriously need the initiave)
Skills:
-Handle Animal +12
-Ride +14
-Perception +14
-Survival +15
Traits:
-Reactionary:+2 to initiative
-pick one
Gear:
- 18310 +2 furious lance
- 12400 +3 Mythral Breastplate
- 04000 Cloack of Resistance +2
- 02000 Amulet of Natural Armor +1
- 02000 Ring of Deflection +1
- 04000 Belt of Stregth +2
39710 Sigfreid's Total
Roy, Tiger Animal Companion
Ability Scores
All stats asume rage is active
STR 30 (+10)(13 +8 size +3 AC bonus +4 raging +2 item)
DEX 18 (+4) (17 -2 size +3 AC bonus)
CON 22 (+6) (13 +4 size +1 level +4 raging)
INT 03 (-4) (2 +1 level)
WIS 15 (+2)
CHA 10 (+0)
HP: 9d8 +63 (aprox 103)
Initiative: acts with Siegfreid
Saving Throws:
F 13 R 12 W 9 (11 vs. enchantment)
AC: 29 - Touch 12, Flatfooted 25 (+6 +2 Mythral Chainshirt, +4 Dex, +11 natural, +1 deflection, -1 size, -2 rage)
Attack (normal): Furious Claw +14/+14 3d6+18 dmg (20/X3)
Furious Bite +13 2d6+18 dmg (20/X2)
Attack (CHARGE): Furious Claw +16/+16/+16/+16 3d6+18 dmg (20/X3)
Furious Bite +15 2d6+18 dmg (20/X2)
Special Attacks:
-Power Attack (-2/+4)* [smaller]included in attack
-Pounce
-Rake
-Grab
Special Qualities & AC extras:
-Scent
-Low-light Vision
-Devotion
-Evasion
-Link
Feats:
-Toughness
-Weapon Focus (Claw)
-Nimble Moves
-Acrobatic Step
-Improved Natural Attack (Claw)
Skills:
-Acrobatics +16
Gear:
- 05000 Furious Amulet of Migthy fISTS
- 05550 +2 Mythral Chainshirt
- 04000 Cloack of Resistance +2
- 02000 Ring of Deflection +1
- 04000 Belt of Stregth +2
17550 Roy's Total
57260 Total
01740 Excess
Sigfreid's DPR is 37.8125, but rises to 123.6125 when charging. A +1 to hit, +1 to damage and an extra attack are worth: 3.025 and 8.525; 1.375 and 4.495; and 22,6875 and 72.4625 respectively.
Roy's DPR is 56.505, but raises 112.425 when charging. A +1 to hit, +1 to damage and an extra attack are worth: 3.93125 and 6.68125; 2.06 and 4.035; and 17,875 and 20,625 respectively.
Both DPRs add up to 94.135 and 222.65 while charging. Sigfried's initiative is +11 so its safe to asume that he will initiative 75% of times wich gives us an expected DPR of 188.921875 in the first round that would drop to 94.135 in subsequent rounds. Note that Roy's Acrobatic Step feat and its acrobatics(jump) modifier facilitates charging in difficult terrain.
Humbly,
Yawar
Edit 1: as RtrnofdMax pointed this requires special permission by the GM since tiger is not legal.
Edit 2: corrected an error with the size of the natural attacks.
How do you get a Tiger when you're only allowed a Horse or Camel?
This companion must be one that she is capable of riding and is suitable
as a mount. A Medium barbarian can select a camel or a horse. A Small barbarian can select a pony or a wolf, but can also select a boar or a dog if she is at least 8th level.
Uhm... I mix it up with the cavalier mount wich can be chosen from non-standard lists ...my fault.
Note that this doesn't affect Sigfreid's damage per se. And any mount he rides will get pounce and a couple +1 size category, critical X3 claw a attacks.
Also, next level Sigfreid will be able to take leadership to attract a Dragonae as special mount, or could simply replace Improved initiative with leadership.
Humbly,
Yawar
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How do you get a Tiger when you're only allowed a Horse or Camel?
This companion must be one that she is capable of riding and is suitable
as a mount. A Medium barbarian can select a camel or a horse. A Small barbarian can select a pony or a wolf, but can also select a boar or a dog if she is at least 8th level.Uhm... I mix it up with the cavalier mount wich can be chosen from non-standard lists ...my fault.
Note that this doesn't affect Sigfreid's damage per se. And any mount he rides will get pounce and a couple +1 size category, critical X3 claw a attacks.
Also, next level Sigfreid will be able to take leadership to attract a Dragonae as special mount, or could simply replace Improved initiative with leadership.
Humbly,
Yawar
actually arent cavaliers limited to horse or camel too?
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Calvin the Cavalier
Plus Hobbes, Loyal Steed
Male Human Cavalier 10
LG Medium Humanoid (Human)
Init +1; Perception +0
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DEFENSE
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AC 27, touch 13, flat-footed 26 (+11 armor, +1 Dex, +1 natural, +2 deflection, +2 shield)
hp 90 (10d10+30)
Fort +10, Ref +5, Will +8
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OFFENSE
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Spd 20 ft.
Melee (Charge, Mounted, Challenge) +3 Lance +27 (3d8+111)
Melee +3 Lance +19/+11 (1d8+21) or +3 Lance +19/+14 (1d8+12)
Melee +1 Greatsword +17/+9 (2d6+19,19-20/2x) or +1 Greatsword +17/+12 (2d6+10,19-20/2x)
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STATISTICS
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Str 22, Dex 12, Con 14, Int 8, Wis 10, Cha 14
Base Atk +10/+5; CMB +16; CMD 29
Feats Critical Focus, Furious Focus, Iron Will, Mounted Combat, Power Attack, Ride-by Attack, Shield Wall, Spirited Charge, Swap Places, Trample
Skills Diplomacy +12, Handle Animal +6, Intimidate +15, Knowledge: Nobility +12, Ride +14
Languages Common
Gear +1 Greatsword, +2 Full Plate, +3 Lance, Amulet of Natural Armor +1, Belt of Giant Strength, +4, Cloak of Resistance, +1, Ring of Force Shield, Ring of Protection, +2
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SPECIAL ABILITIES
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Animal Companion (Ex)
Challenge (Order of the Sword): +10 to damage, +3 to hit while mounted
Cavalier's Charge (Ex) Mounted charge grants +4 to hit and -0 AC rather than +2/-2.
Male Horse
Large Animal
Init +3; Senses Low-Light Vision, Scent; Perception +13
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DEFENSE
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AC 23, touch 16, flat-footed 16 (+4 armor, +3 Dex, -1 size, +7 natural)
hp 86 (+36)
Fort +10, Ref +9, Will +4
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OFFENSE
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Spd 70 ft.
Melee Bite (Horse) +11 (1d4+6) and Hooves x2 (Horse) +6 x2 (1d6+3)
Space 10 ft.; Reach 5 ft.
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STATISTICS
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Str 22, Dex 16, Con 18, Int 2, Wis 12, Cha 6
Base Atk +5/+0; CMB +13; CMD 26 (30 vs. Trip)
Feats Fleet, Fleet, Fleet, Fleet, Toughness
Skills Perception +13
Gear Chain Armor
While charging his challenge target, Calvin hits unless he rolls a 1. He does 3d8+111 damage, 4d8+148 damage on a crit. The damage is 1d8 from the lance, 9 from strength, 6 from mount strength (Order of the Sword), 9 from Power Attack, 3 from magical weapon, 10 from challenge, and tripled by the lance and Spirited Charge. The hit (normally +16 for an attack modified by Power Attack) is increased by 4 from the charge, by 3 from the Order of the Sword's challenge ability, 1 from being on higher ground via mount, and 3 from Furious Focus. Calvin can charge from 140 feet away because Hobbes has selected Fleet multiple times.
The DPR for Calvin's charge is 126.1, just short of the standard CR 10 average hit points. Without the mount, charge, and challenge, the damage is not great. Kind of a one-trick pony-rider easily thwarted in a number of ways, but certainly solid if allowed to be.
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Precise strike is a conditional bonus. You can add it to your calculations for fun, but it shouldn't be part of your baseline since you can't guarantee a flank or a partner with the same feat all the time.
I am curious how you'd use it for an archer since it only works for melee attacks, even when flanking with point blank master.
Is there a reason Calvin doesn't have Vital Strike/etc? I recall someone official stating somewhere that Vital Strike can be used on a mounted charge.
Is there a reason Calvin doesn't have Vital Strike/etc? I recall someone official stating somewhere that Vital Strike can be used on a mounted charge.
Nope. Vital Strike requires a standard action to use, which you do not get on a charge (a full round action).
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Battlecat!you have now idea how much i appreciate this. II hadn't even thought of this. THANK YOU GOOD SIR OR MADAM!
Sir, as it happens. Pleased to be of service.
As for Perfect Strike, I'd place baseline DPR on one line and Perfect Strike on another since it's limited in uses per day. If you're asking about how to do the math, I couldn't really tell you. My mathhammer will only tell me the probability of one die ending up on a number not at least one of two.