# The DPR Olympics - or "I'm not the mechanic here, Ironsides! I mostly just hurt people!"

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YuenglingDragon wrote:
My mathhammer will only tell me the probability of one die ending up on a number not at least one of two.

That's 1 minus (the probability that neither die ends up at that number).

So if, for instance, you have a +10 modifier and you need to hit an AC of 23, you have to have at least one die come up a 13 or better. That's a 60% chance that a given die will be a failure, or a .6 * .6 = 36% chance that both dice will be failures. Thus, the odds that at least one die will succeed is 1 - .36, or 64%.

Carpy DM wrote:

That's 1 minus (the probability that neither die ends up at that number).

So if, for instance, you have a +10 modifier and you need to hit an AC of 23, you have to have at least one die come up a 13 or better. That's a 60% chance that a given die will be a failure, or a .6 * .6 = 36% chance that both dice will be failures. Thus, the odds that at least one die will succeed is 1 - .36, or 64%.

Awesome. Thank you. I had figured that it would be something like that but I had not thought to use the miss chance rather than the success chance.

So there you go Zen Archers. Math you up some DPR!

Back when this first started, A Man in Black and Treantmonk went round and round looking for a decent monk build. At one point, AMiB even asked someone to help him make a "monk that doesn't fail at life."

Well, thanks to the wonders of the APG, I hereby present A Monk That Doesn't Fail At Life:

Howard the Hungry Ghost Monk

Spoiler:
Male human hungry ghost monk 10
LN Medium humanoid (human)
Init +2; Senses Perception +16

------------------------------------------------------------------------
DEFENSE
------------------------------------------------------------------------

AC 23, touch 19, flat-footed 20
(armor +3, deflection +1, Dex +2, dodge +1, monk +5, natural +1)
hp 80 (10d8+30)
Fort +11, Ref +12, Will +13 (+15 vs enchantments)
Defensive Abilities evasion, improved evasion

------------------------------------------------------------------------
OFFENSE
------------------------------------------------------------------------

Spd 60 ft.
Melee +3 temple sword +17 (1d8+9, 17-20/x2) or
flurry of blows +18/+18/+13/+13 (1d8+9, 19-20/x2) or
flurry of blows with Power Attack +16/+16/+11/+11 (1d8+15, 17-20/x2)
Ranged mw shuriken +10 (1d2+6, 20/x2)
Special Attacks ki pool (8 pts.), ki strike (lawful and magic), life funnel, maneuver training, punishing kick (10 ft., DC 18), steal ki

------------------------------------------------------------------------
STATISTICS
------------------------------------------------------------------------

Str 22 (+6), Dex 14 (+2), Con 12 (+1), Int 10 (+0), Wis 16 (+3), Cha 8 (-1)
Base Atk +7; CMB +16; CMD 30
Feats Combat Reflexes, Dodge, Improved Critical (temple sword), Ironhide, Mobility, Power Attack, Racial Heritage (half-orc), Spider Step, Toughness, Weapon Focus (temple sword)
Skills Acrobatics +15 (+37 jumping), Climb +19, Perception +16, Stealth +15, Swim +19
Languages Common
SQ high jump, slow fall (50 ft.)
Gear +3 temple sword, masterwork shuriken (10), belt of giant strength +4, bracers of armor +3, cloak of resistance +3, handy haversack, headband of inspired wisdom +2, ring of protection +1, 168 gp in general useful stuff

(+1 Str at 4th level, +1 Wis at 8th level. All stat mods from equipment included.)

DPR: ~54.61
+1 to hit: +4.68*
+1 to damage: +2.52*
Extra Attack: 15.21
Standard Action Attack: 16.2

By spending a ki point, something he can do 8 times a day, Howard’s DPR goes up to 64.35 (but see below).

The key pieces of this build are a) a two-handed, medium-threat-range monk weapon, allowing a far-more-potent-than-usual flurry of blows and a much greater benefit from Power Attack, and b) the steal ki ability. Steal ki allows Howard to get a free ki point (as long as he’s down one for the day) on any attack against a living enemy that either reduces that enemy to 0 or fewer hit points or results in a critical hit, with no maximum number of uses per day. That means that, on any full-attack sequence that gets him a critical hit (something that should occur roughly 35.9% of the time), Howard can immediately spend that ki point as a swift action to add another attack to his sequence. That “free” extra attack has been included in his DPR (and excluded from the calculation of his ki-enhanced attack sequence, since otherwise it’d get double-counted). The effect of steal ki is worth roughly +~5.47 DPR.

* because of steal ki, these numbers are actually slightly higher, since they are also impacted by the probability that Howard will get a free extra attack.

EDIT: I just went back and looked over Melvin 1.1.2, and I realizes that AMiB assumed that Melvin's Power Attack during a flurry would be calculated as if he had a +10 BAB. I don't believe that's correct, so I didn't go that route with Howerd; if you agree with AMiB, though, you'll want to know it's worth about a +2.5 DPR for Howard.

YuenglingDragon wrote:
Carpy DM wrote:

That's 1 minus (the probability that neither die ends up at that number).

So if, for instance, you have a +10 modifier and you need to hit an AC of 23, you have to have at least one die come up a 13 or better. That's a 60% chance that a given die will be a failure, or a .6 * .6 = 36% chance that both dice will be failures. Thus, the odds that at least one die will succeed is 1 - .36, or 64%.

Awesome. Thank you. I had figured that it would be something like that but I had not thought to use the miss chance rather than the success chance.

So there you go Zen Archers. Math you up some DPR!

Here's the issue with that, though: I can tell you what the odds are that you'll hit, but I'll be damned if I can figure out how likely you are to confirm your crit. Can anyone look over the Zen archer (and weapon master, for that matter) and tell me how to calculate the odds of a confirmed crit at 10th level using Perfect Strike?

ChanceConfirm (per attack) = ChanceCrit * ChanceHit
ChanceNotConfirm = 100 - ChanceConfirm
ChanceConfirm(1+ / all atts) = 100 -( (ChanceNotConfirm#1)(ChanceNotConfirm#2)(...) )

I think...

Fiddling a bit with Howard to turn him into a Warren the Weapon Adept Monk (quarterstaff - same logic about two-handed Power Attack being a Good Thing) seems to point to him being fairly close to Howard, not conting Howard's steal ki bonuses; the trick, though, is that Perfect Strike doubles the odds of hitting with an iterative attack (and almost triples the odds of rolling a critical threat - still don't know how to calculate the confirmation), which seems like it would be extremely useful for boosting Warren's DPR at key moments, even setting aside the ki pool question. (Also, Warren gets Weapon Focus for free, opening up room for Extra Ki, which helps make up somewhat for the lack of steal ki.)

Quandary wrote:

ChanceConfirm (per attack) = ChanceCrit * ChanceHit

ChanceNotConfirm = 100 - ChanceConfirm
ChanceConfirm(1+ / all atts) = 100 -( (ChanceNotConfirm#1)(ChanceNotConfirm#2)(...) )

I think...

The way it looks to me is this: the odds of confirming the crit should be (chance of a threat) * (1 - (chance to not confirm)*(chance to not confirm))... but I can't figure out if it's that or three times that, because there are three possible configurations of (threat)(possible confirm)(possible confirm). That's the part I'm stuck on. And it's kind of big deal, since the one make it three times as likely as the other that you'll confirm your crit...

EDIT: And of course to make it worse, if it is that there are three possible configurations, and so it's the higher odds, some of those configurations overlap, so it's not actually three times, but a ratio dependent on exactly what numbers on the die threaten and confirm, a ratio I don't know how to calculate without essentially just drawing a big table...

I drew the table and came up with the formula. I hope tejon is still watching this thread, because a spreadsheet's the only way it's going to work.

The percentage chance of confirming a crit at level 10 as a weapon adept monk or Zen archer is:

x^3 + 4x^2y + 2x^2z + 6xyz + 3xy^2

where x = the percentage chance of rolling a threat, y = the percentage chance of hitting the target's AC without rolling a threat, and z = the percentage chance of rolling low enough to miss the target's AC entirely. (As a double check, x + y + z = 100%.)

EDIT: Just FYI, the odds of getting a crit using the standard version of Perfect Strike (not the level 10+ weapon adept/Zen archer version above) are x^2 + 2xy, with the same variable definitions listed above.

Carpy, you've totally overcomplicated things. Here's how you work out a monk's chance to crit with 3 perfect strike die.

n = the % chance to not threaten a critical hit on a single die roll

m = the % chance to miss a confirmation roll on a single die

crit chance = (1-n^3) * (1-m^2)

It's as simple as that.

So if you have a character that threatens on 19-20, and confirms on 11+, you'd get:

crit chance = (1-.90^3) * (1-.50^2) = .20325 = ~20%

Quote:

Zeus the lvl 10 Dwarven Zen Archer Monk
Spoiler:

Ability Scores:
STR: 14 (+2)
DEX: 14 (+2) (13 base, +1 level)
CON: 14 (+2) (12 base, +2 race)
INT: 10 (+0)
WIS: 22 (+6) (15 base, +2 race, +1 level, +4 headband)
CHA: 6 (-2) (8 base, -2 race)

HP: 78 (10d8+30)

Saving Throws:
Fort: +10 Ref: +10 Will: +14 (+2 vs spells and spell-like abilities, poison immunity)

AC: 23 - Touch 22, Flatfooted 20 (+6 wis, +2 monk, +2 dex, +1 Ring of Protection, +1 Dodge, +1 Iron Hide) +4 vs Giants

Attacks: +4 Composite Longbow (+2 Str) +19/+19/+14/+14, 1d8+13 dmg (19-20/x3) (+1 attack vs orc and goblinoids)

Class Abilities:
AC Bonus: Wis mod +2
Ki Pool: 13 points

BAB: +7 CMB: +9 CMD: 30 (+4 vs bull rush and trips)

Feats:
Perfect Strike
Point Blank Shot
Dodge
Weapon Focus (longbow)
Precise Shot
Point Blank Master
Extra Ki
Improved Precise Shot
Weapon Spec (longbow)
Improved Initiative
Iron Hide
Improved Critical

Gear:
+4 Composite Longbow (+2 str)
Cloak of Resistance +1
Handy Haversack
Lesser Bracers of Archery
Ring of Protection +1
Efficient Quiver
1600gp in other gear

DPR from flurry and Deadly Aim: 56.7

DPR with 1 ki point spent for additional attack (13/day): 73.5
DPR with Perfect Strike on one of the lowest BAB attacks (10/day): 68.6196
DPR with 1 ki point and Perfect Strike: 85.4196

So a Zen Archer can do 68+ damage 23 rounds per day, or do 85 damage 10 rounds per day, or something somewhere in between.

Certainly a step up from the baseline monk.

Merkatz wrote:
Carpy, you've totally overcomplicated things.

No, I'm not. (Well, okay, I might be, but not as much as you think I am.)

Merkatz wrote:

Here's how you work out a monk's chance to crit with 3 perfect strike die.

n = the % chance to not threaten a critical hit on a single die roll

m = the % chance to miss a confirmation roll on a single die

crit chance = (1-n^3) * (1-m^2)

It's as simple as that.

No. That's the probability of rolling 3 d20s, checking to see if any of them are threats, then picking them up (or grabbing another set of three dice) and rolling them again to see if any of them confirm. What happens with Perfect Strike is a lot more complicated, because there's no refresh - a die that rolls a threat can't be rerolled to confirm as well.

Trust me. I don't know enough statistics to know how to do it easily, but in this case at least, I do know enough to do it accurately. Your calculation will get you a ballpark, but you will always be too high.

Merkatz wrote:

So if you have a character that threatens on 19-20, and confirms on 11+, you'd get:

crit chance = (1-.90^3) * (1-.50^2) = .20325 = ~20%

The actual probability is 19.5% exactly.

Merkatz wrote:

Zeus the lvl 10 Dwarven Zen Archer Monk
** spoiler omitted **

Just to clarify, are you including Point Blank Shot into his attack/damage?

Carpy DM wrote:

The percentage chance of confirming a crit at level 10 as a weapon adept monk or Zen archer is:

x^3 + 4x^2y + 2x^2z + 6xyz + 3xy^2

where x = the percentage chance of rolling a threat, y = the percentage chance of hitting the target's AC without rolling a threat, and z = the percentage chance of rolling low enough to miss the target's AC entirely.

Aren't you basically doing (x+y+z)^3 and taking the following terms:

x^3, x^2y, x^2z, xy^2, xyz?

If so wouldn't the coefficients be:
1x^3 + 3x^2y + 3x^2z + 3xy^2 + 3!xyz (where 3!=3x2x1=6).

Also as a small side note, if you are making a formula you need to handle the special case where you could miss within the 'threat range' of the weapon. To whit in this case if you needed a natural 20 to hit, but had improved crit so would normally threaten on a 19-20.

The interesting question is which attack should you be using this ability with? One of the top BAB attacks or a weaker attack?

Obviously if you would need a nat 20 to hit with a weak iterative then rolling 3 times doesn't help as much as the increased crit chance with a top level attack.

-James

james maissen wrote:
Carpy DM wrote:

The percentage chance of confirming a crit at level 10 as a weapon adept monk or Zen archer is:

x^3 + 4x^2y + 2x^2z + 6xyz + 3xy^2

where x = the percentage chance of rolling a threat, y = the percentage chance of hitting the target's AC without rolling a threat, and z = the percentage chance of rolling low enough to miss the target's AC entirely.

Aren't you basically doing (x+y+z)^3 and taking the following terms:

x^3, x^2y, x^2z, xy^2, xyz?

If so wouldn't the coefficients be:
1x^3 + 3x^2y + 3x^2z + 3xy^2 + 3!xyz (where 3!=3x2x1=6).

Actually, yeah, that looks right. Like I said, the only way I know how to handle it is to just draw the damn table and count - if I miscounted, then I would be off by about that much. (I said I only know enough to know I don't know enough to do it the easy way... :D)

james maissen wrote:

Also as a small side note, if you are making a formula you need to handle the special case where you could miss within the 'threat range' of the weapon. To whit in this case if you needed a natural 20 to hit, but had improved crit so would normally threaten on a 19-20.

The interesting question is which attack should you be using this ability with? One of the top BAB attacks or a weaker attack?

Obviously if you would need a nat 20 to hit with a weak iterative then rolling 3 times doesn't help as much as the increased crit chance with a top level attack.

-James

Yeah, and it might actually even come up. It might be worth playing with (once someone else writes the f~*&ing Excel code, that is) to see which choice increases DPR on which weapons/attack bonuses...

 RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16

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Norman, Master of the Elven Curved Fruit

Spoiler:

Male human rogue 10
N Medium humanoid (human)

Ability Scores:
STR: 15 (+2) (14 base, +1 level)
DEX: 22 (+6) (15 base, +1 level, +2 racial, +4 belt)
CON: 10 (+0)
INT: 13 (+1)
WIS: 12 (+1)
CHA: 8 (-1)

HP: 58 HP (10d8+10)

Saving Throws
Fort: +5 Ref: +15 Will: +6

AC: 24 - Touch 17, Flatfooted 18 (+6 +2 mithral shirt, +6 dex, +1 Amulet of Natural Armor, +1 Ring of Protection)

Attacks: +2 bananas +14/+14/+9/+9, d2+4 dmg (19-20/x2)

Special Attacks:
Sneak attack +5d6

Class Abilities:
Evasion
Improved Uncanny Dodge
Finesse Rogue, Combat Trick, Minor Magic, Major Magic (True Strike), Feat

BAB: +7 CMB: +9 (+11 to disarm) CMD: 24

Feats:
Weapon Finesse (bonus)
Weapon Focus (bananas)
Catch Off Guard
Two-Weapon Fighting
Quicken Spell-Like Ability (True Strike) (bonus)
Improvised Weapon Mastery
Improved Two-Weapon Fighting
Combat Expertise
Improved Disarm (bonus)

Skills:
N/R

Gear:
A bunch of bananas (improvised weapons)
2 x Pearl of Power (3rd-Level spell) for greater magic weapon(s)
+2 mithral shirt
Belt dex +4
Amulet of Natural Armor +1
Cloak of Resistance +2
Ring of Protection +1
Handy Haversack
2800 GP in other stuff

Norm cheats by having his wizard pal cast greater magic weapon on his ‘nanas at the start of the day, replacing the spells with pearls of power for no net impact.

His attack routine is to use a quickened true strike with a secondary banana attack to disarm his enemy. His Catch Off-Guard feat then makes the enemy flat-footed against the remainder of his attacks, which then apply sneak attack damage.

Norman has an average DPR of 37.7, which is pretty good considering what he’s beating you to death with. However, Norman has a lot of trouble against monsters with natural attacks, and instead uses his bananas as a bribe to give him enough time to run away.

An interesting variant on Norman would be the banana-fighter who takes Deadly Stroke to inflict Con bleed on his disarmed and flat-footed enemies. What you have to do with a banana to cause Constitution damage is left to the imagination.

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I haven't read the entire thread, so something like this might have already been covered, but I was directed here by Carpy DM after making some suggestions for alternatives to Two-Paw Pete the paladin in a lay on hands thread over in General Discussion.

Swap Dex for Cha. Swap two +3 kukris for a +3 falchion and a circlet of Cha +4. Swap the two-weapon feats for Power Attack.

You get +4 Fort, +2 Ref, +4 Will, lay on hands uses increase by 4 (some 75 hp, almost a whole 'nother paladin worth of staying power). Damage when not smiting and damage when smiting are basically the same (increased ever so slightly). Much better damage on a standard action attack. Still two feats left over to play with.

Spoiler:
Ability Scores:
STR: 20 (+5) (14 base, +2 racial, +4 belt)
DEX: 12 (+1)
CON: 13 (+1)
INT: 10 (+0)
WIS: 8 (-1)
CHA: 21 (+5) (15 base, +2 level, +4 circlet)

HP: 79 HP (10d10+20)

Saving Throws
Fort: +14 Ref: +10 Will: +12

AC: 22 - Touch 12, Flatfooted 21 (+10 +1 full plate, +1 dex, +1 Ring of Protection)

Attacks:
Normal: Falchion +19/+14, 2d4+10 dmg (15-20/x2)
( 0.8 + 0.55 ) * 15 * 1.3 = 26.33
Power Attack: Falchion +16/+11, 2d4+19 dmg (15-20/x2)
( 0.65 + 0.40 ) * 24 * 1.3 = 32.76
Smite: Falchion +24/+19, 2d4+20 dmg (15-20/x2)
( 0.95 + 0.8 ) * 25 * 1.3 = 56.88
Smite and Power Attack: Falchion +21/+16, 2d4+29 dmg (15-20/x2)
( 0.9 + 0.65 ) * 34 * 1.3 = 68.51

Class Abilities:
Smite Evil 4/day (+5 to hit, +10/+20 damage)
Divine Bond
Divine Grace
Other stuff, I am lazy

BAB: +10 CMB: +15 CMD: 26

Feats:
(not Two Weapon Fighting?)
Toughness
Weapon Focus (greatsword)
Power Attack
(not Improved Two Weapon Fighting?)
Improved Critical (falchion)

Skills:
Stuff

Gear:
+3 falchion
Circlet of +4 Cha
Belt of +4 str
+1 full plate
Cloak of Resistance +1
Handy Haversack
Masterwork composite longbow (+6 str mod)
Ring of protection +1
734 GP in miscellaneous consumables, gear, non-portable goods, etc.

I'm not really happy with how this indicates that Power Attack is even more mandatory for warriors than in 3.5.

Sacrificing just a bit of dependability for moments of jaw-dropping awesome, switch that +3 falchion for a +2 falchion and a +2 lance, and get Mounted Combat and Spirited Charge.

Power Attack: Falchion +15/+10, 2d4+18 dmg (15-20/x2)
( 0.60 + 0.35 ) * 23 * 1.3 = 28.40

Smite and Power Attack: Falchion +20/+15, 2d4+28 dmg (15-20/x2)
( 0.85 + 0.60 ) * 33 * 1.3 = 62.21

Power Attack, Spirited Charge: Lance +17, 3d8+54 dmg (20/x3)
0.70 * 67.5 * 1.1 = 51.98

Smite, Power Attack, Spirited Charge: Lance +22, 3d8+84 dmg (20/x3)
0.95 * 97.5 * 1.1 = 101.89

Against evil dragons &c.

Dragonsmite, Power Attack, Spirited Charge: Lance +22, 3d8+114 dmg (20/x3)
0.95 * 127.5 * 1.1 = 133.24

Just don't roll a 1, and that CR 10 red dragon is going down.

Dementrius wrote:
Attacks: +2 bananas +14/+14/+9/+9, d2+4 dmg (19-20/x2)

Dementrius wrote:

Norman, Master of the Elven Curved Fruit

** spoiler omitted **

Norm cheats by having his wizard pal cast greater magic weapon on his ‘nanas at the start of the day, replacing the spells with pearls of power for no net impact.

His attack routine is to use a quickened true strike with a secondary banana attack to disarm his enemy. His Catch Off-Guard feat then makes the enemy flat-footed against the remainder of his attacks, which then apply sneak attack damage.

Norman has an average DPR of 37.7, which is pretty good considering what he’s beating you to death with. However, Norman has a lot of trouble against monsters with natural attacks, and instead uses his bananas as a bribe to give him enough time to run away.

An interesting variant on Norman would be the banana-fighter who takes Deadly Stroke to...

Norman needs arcane strike, he has arcane spells so give him the feat he so richly deserves.

Kais86 wrote:
Norman needs arcane strike, he has arcane spells so give him the feat he so richly deserves.

James Jacobs explained somewhere that rogue magic talents don't count as spellcasting ability for the purposes of Arcane Strike. Expected, since they're spell-like abilities, not arcane spells, but I kind of hoped that the intent was for them to work together.

jasin wrote:
Kais86 wrote:
Norman needs arcane strike, he has arcane spells so give him the feat he so richly deserves.
James Jacobs explained somewhere that rogue magic talents don't count as spellcasting ability for the purposes of Arcane Strike. Expected, since they're spell-like abilities, not arcane spells, but I kind of hoped that the intent was for them to work together.

The problem isn't so much that it is a spell-like ability in itself, because spell-like abilities are like spells except where specifically noted otherwise, it's that arcane strike requires arcane spells, and spell-like abilities are never arcane or divine.

jasin wrote:

Fair enough. These rules should be a bit more well-defined so that people don't need internet access to find out whether or not it works.

This is not a thorough run-down of all the details of the build, but just a quick outline of what can be done with the Magus (first playtest release). This is by no means the most optimal build; but it shows what kind of thing is possible. Unfortunately the Magus only gets Weapon Specialization at level 11; which significantly increases the DPR

Rough breakdown:

Important stats:
15 + 1 + 2 + 4 = 22 strength
13 + 1 + 2 = 16 intelligence

Gold spent:
16000 - +4 to strength
19000 - +3 dwarven battleaxe
4000 - +2 to intelligence

• Haste included as baseline as it is gained as a swift action (magus arcana: hasted assault); as per DPR Olympic rules
• Arcane accuracy (magus arcana) used as part of base line for +2 to attacks by sacrificing level spells; also a swift action so legal as per DPR Olympic rules
• Weapon bond ability used (+2 to dwarven battleaxe)

Attack
7 + 6 + 1 + 3 + 2 + 2 + 1 - 2 - 2
bab + str + focus + magic + bond + accuracy + haste - spell combat - power attack
= 20/20/15

Damage
6 + 3 + 2 + 3 + 4
str + magic + bond + arcane strike + power attack
= 1d10 + 18 = 23.5

Damage wielding the weapon in two hands
9 + 3 + 2 + 3 + 6
str + magic + bond + arcane strike + power attack
= 1d10 + 23 = 28.5

Concentration
10 + 3 + 2
CL + Int + Trait
= 15
Cannot fail concentration check for spells up to level 1

DPR With Spell Combat: (uses Magic Missile to minimize math)
23.5 * (0.75 + 0.75 + 0.45) + 16.5 = 62.325

DPR Ignoring Spell Combat (uses two-handed wielding)
28.5 * (0.85 + 0.85 + 0.55) = 64.125

This is naturally only a theoretical DPR-olympic legal build, and not the most optimal at that (spell combat with smarter spells can easily increase DPR) - and the math does not include increases to DPR from crits (roughly adds another 10% or so).

I'm willing to say that the Magus is very competitive.

Lorekeeper - First off, good initial crack at the Magus.

You can't Arcane Strike and Arcane Accuracy on the same turn though as each are swift action buffs that last a round.

You make a compelling argument

RtrnofdMax wrote:

Lorekeeper - First off, good initial crack at the Magus.

You can't Arcane Strike and Arcane Accuracy on the same turn though as each are swift action buffs that last a round.

And Hasted Assault is another swift action...So he would need to use at least a 2nd level slot there as well.

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Meet Darwin, he's a Magus.

I've learned from my prior effort; so this time around the character only uses his swift actions for Arcane Strike. His weapon bond makes his scimitar a +5 weapon; so he bypasses the vast majority of damage reductions (at least I think the bonus from weapon bond applies for that). Let me know if I made a mistake with something. All DPR values courtesy of the DPR calculator.

Noteworthy: AC 28 without special effects. AC 36 when in the heat of battle. Decent saves (11/11/9). DPR 43 (when being lazy) and DPR 123 (in the heat of battle). And he's naturally able to access greater invisibility, mirror image, displacement and any number of other good offensive and defensive buffs.

The build focuses on the Dancing Dervish feat (Qadira, Gateway to the East companion) which is almost tailor-made for a Magus. His defenses are very impressive, not even considering that he's got access to good defensive buffs, a peak AC of 36 is substantial. The build also highlights that the Magus novas a lot: the discrepancy between lowest DPR and highest DPR is quite large.

Darwin, Dancing Dervish of Sarenra, and a Magus:

Edited stats, needed more Str to keep power attack after blending to small creature
Str 15 14 + 1 (level 8)
Dex 18 15 + 2 (racial) + 1 (level 4)
Con 13
Int 14 12 + 2 (item)
Wis 10
Cha 8

Traits:
Desperate Focus (+2 to concentration checks)

Feats:
Human - Combat Casting
Level 1 Weapon Finesse
Level 3 Dervish Dance
Level 5 Arcane Strike
Bonus 5 Weapon Focus (scimitar)
Level 7 Power Attack
Level 9 Dodge

Magus Arcana:
Level 3 Concentrate
Level 6 Familiar
Level 9 Hasted Assault

Equipment
+3 scimitar 18315gp
celestial armor 22400gp
ring of protection +1 2000gp
amulet of natural armor +1 2000gp
robe of blending 8400gp
cloak of resistance +2 4000gp

18315 + 22400 + 4000 + 2000 + 2000 + 8400 + 4000 = 61115

Going into combat
Cast shield (duration 10min/level)
Cast keen edge (duration 10min/level)
Activate robe of blending to become small-sized (-2 Str, +2 Dex, +1AC from size change, +2 Dex from alter self effect) (duration 1 hour)

Notes for combat
There is no reason for the character to not attack with haste; the first round of spell combat is used to cast haste; following rounds are used situationally, typically casting cat's grace and greater invisibility then magic missile for the rounds after that (smarter spells can be used, but I'm not doing the math). The magus uses Arcane Strike for his swift action every round

Vitals
HP: 73 +1 Con, +1 favored class
AC: 33(35 with cat's grace) 10 + 6 dex + 9 armor + 4 shield + 1 dodge + 1 deflection + 1 natural + 1 size (+ 2 cat's grace)
Saves: 10 / 11 (13) / 9 (base 7 / 3 / 7, modifiers: 1 / 6 / 0, magic: 2 / 2 / 2, (cat's grace increases reflex by 2))
Attack: 17/12 (19/14 with cat's grace) 7 bab + 6 dex + 1 weapon focus +3 magic + 2 weapon bond - 2 power attack (+2 cat's grace)
Damage: 20.5 (22.5 with cat's grace) 1d4 small scimitar + 6 dex + 3 magic + 2 weapon bond + 4 power attack + 3 arcane strike (+2 cat's grace)

Combat
Round 1
Cast haste (cannot fail concentrate check), spell combat imposes -2 to attack, haste adds +1 to attack; AC increases by +1 to 34
DPR: 63.47

Round 2
Cast cat's grace (cannot fail concentrate check), spell combat imposes -2 to attack, haste adds +1 to attack, cat's grace increases attack and damage by +2; AC increases by +2 to 36
DPR: 80.57

Round 3
Cast greater invisibility (cannot fail concentrate check), spell combat imposes -2 to attack, haste adds +1 to attack, cat's grace increases attack and damage by +2, invisibility grant's +2 to attack
Enemy is considered flat-footed; I've set target AC to 23 to allow for this - but this can vary considerably depending on the opponent
DPR: 106.70

Round 4 to ??
Cast magic missile (cannot fail concentrate check), no changes to attack from round 3. Adds 16.5 to DPR
DPR: 123.20

Round ?? to ?!?
No more magic cast, spell combat is not used so -2 penalty does not apply anymore
DPR: 115.41

Without using combat buffs (but with pre-combat buffs used)
Does not make use of spell-combat
DPR: 43.00

If you spend money less balanced, you can have +4 dex belt for Darwin; meaning you skip the cat's grace casting. So you get 80+ DPR on the first round (haste cast); and then 100+ in rounds 2 onward

Also it means that Darwin's "idle" DPR (with pre-combat buffs) is 50. And 36 without any buffs.

LoreKeeper wrote:

Meet Darwin, he's a Magus.

I've learned from my prior effort; so this time around the character only uses his swift actions for Arcane Strike.

Let me know if I made a mistake with something.

In general these comparisons are based on a no-prior round buffing round 1 damage. It's not the complete story but does handle action economy that way.

-James

james maissen wrote:

In general these comparisons are based on a no-prior round buffing round 1 damage. It's not the complete story but does handle action economy that way.

-James

I might be mistaken, but I think it's correct. The OP specifies duration spells of 10min/level are legal to be cast in advance - which applies to both Shield and Keen Edge. I assume that means that something measured as an hour also applies (hence the robe of blending).

All other durations assume that the fight is over before a minute is up and are cast during combat.

The action economy of the Magus is favorable, as he is able to cast and full-round at the same time. That's pretty sweet if you think it through a bit:

Wizard: Cast haste on party and moves behind the tank
Bard: Cast haste on party and activate bardic music
Magus: Cast haste on party and do a full-round attack

No biggie but Shield is what james was referring to.

Ah thanks :) - I blame it on never playing casters. I'll consider it an optional boost then.

Thanks for pointing it out!

LoreKeeper wrote:

Ah thanks :) - I blame it on never playing casters. I'll consider it an optional boost then.

Thanks for pointing it out!

Also.. casting defensively greater invisibility via spell combat.. the DC is 15+4x2=23.. you have a +22 to concentration checks?

I see that you have 10(lvl)+2(stat)+2(trait)+4feat=18, which would seem to me as if you fail it 20% of the time. What am I missing?

Also you might wish to list out your memorized spells to make it clear exactly the level of resources you are planning on using this fight. As I see it over 3 rounds you are using your only 4th (top) level spell, 1 of your two remaining 3rd level spells, 1 of your five 2nd level spells, and then go into your five remaining first level spells.

There certainly is a reason for this character not to be hasted in a combat.. he'll likely run out of spell slots to fuel it.

One of the things with the magus is that he's got the resources of the bard yet people act as if he's a sorcerer. His pockets just aren't that deep.

-James
PS: Why not lower CHA to 7 and up the CON to 14? Also I would suggest that you look at Furious Focus instead of dodge, though I can understand wanting the higher AC.

james maissen wrote:

-James
PS: Why not lower CHA to 7 and up the CON to 14? Also I would suggest that you look at Furious Focus instead of dodge, though I can understand wanting the higher AC.

I think he was trying to not min-max it too much. Furious focus only works with two handed weapons (or wielded with both hands) btw, so it wont work for him.

xiN wrote:

I think he was trying to not min-max it too much. Furious focus only works with two handed weapons (or wielded with both hands) btw, so it wont work for him.

Ah mea culpa. Just was seeing dodge as unneeded and wanted a quick replacement for it.. pity it can't be weapon spec or improved crit.

Perhaps lunge makes sense.

james maissen wrote:
LoreKeeper wrote:

Ah thanks :) - I blame it on never playing casters. I'll consider it an optional boost then.

Thanks for pointing it out!

Also.. casting defensively greater invisibility via spell combat.. the DC is 15+4x2=23.. you have a +22 to concentration checks?

I see that you have 10(lvl)+2(stat)+2(trait)+4feat=18, which would seem to me as if you fail it 20% of the time. What am I missing?

Also you might wish to list out your memorized spells to make it clear exactly the level of resources you are planning on using this fight. As I see it over 3 rounds you are using your only 4th (top) level spell, 1 of your two remaining 3rd level spells, 1 of your five 2nd level spells, and then go into your five remaining first level spells.

There certainly is a reason for this character not to be hasted in a combat.. he'll likely run out of spell slots to fuel it.

One of the things with the magus is that he's got the resources of the bard yet people act as if he's a sorcerer. His pockets just aren't that deep.

-James
PS: Why not lower CHA to 7 and up the CON to 14? Also I would suggest that you look at Furious Focus instead of dodge, though I can understand wanting the higher AC.

Same issue as before, I don't play casters, so I get casting formulas wrong. I was basing my statement on a formula that does not double spell level. You're right, there's spell failure chance for level 3 (5%) and 4 (15%) spells. Different emphasis on stats can solve this for level 3 spells at least (and reduce impact on level 4 spells).

Yes, certainly there are any number of improvements available for the build - I specifically focused on what I considered a playable, balanced but high-DPR build. It's possible to do quite a lot different and take advantage of different possibilities. Regarding the stats though: to my knowledge we are required to use the elite stat array, which precludes certain forms of optimization.

Assuming that the Magus aims to nova in three encounters, he has 3 haste spells available for the day. If you give just a bit more Int, you can get a bonus level 3 spell to have 4 hasted encounters a day. This simply has to suffice. Typically he'll only go all-out (with level 4 spell) for one fight. And if you really want, you can use Pearls of Power to recover spells between fights.

Let me emphasize again that the Magus is pretty potent offensively when he buffs up; and so-so in an unbuffed state. His buffs aren't unlimited, but that's common to most classes except maybe the fighter and ranger. Given a range of 3 to 5 encounters a day; the Magus should generally be able to chose his fights well enough to be in his prime condition when it matters.

And some fights he'll just eek out a 30 DPR and will have to live with it. This too is fine and part of the game. :)

"Dodge" is certainly a replaceable feat; ditto for "Power Attack" (which increases overall DPR by 5 at best).

LoreKeeper wrote:

Assuming that the Magus aims to nova in three encounters, he has 3 haste spells available for the day. If you give just a bit more Int, you can get a bonus level 3 spell to have 4 hasted encounters a day. This simply has to suffice.

That's fine, but seeing as they've objected to boots of speed in this thread, I would suggest that you separate out the DPR for hasted vs non.

Also if this magus is going to spell combat cast haste in three combats then he's going to need to give up keen weapon as you only have three slots here.

Resources is very much a magus concern and they do peter out quite quickly.

-James

james maissen wrote:
LoreKeeper wrote:

Assuming that the Magus aims to nova in three encounters, he has 3 haste spells available for the day. If you give just a bit more Int, you can get a bonus level 3 spell to have 4 hasted encounters a day. This simply has to suffice.

That's fine, but seeing as they've objected to boots of speed in this thread, I would suggest that you separate out the DPR for hasted vs non.

I though the restriction on boots of speed was because it was an item and not a class ability?

Lorekeeper, I am fully aware that the magus can dish out large ammounts of damage, eventually. But a simmilarly buffed any other character will dish out more, and often spend less resources doing it. That is the Magus's great advantage though. He can buff and fight at the same time.

1. Your build uses a non-standard feat from pre-pathfinder setting material, which, as far as I am aware, has not been reprinted for Pathfinder. It is relying on this to be able to focus solely on 1 physical stat, and it gets a huge ammount of DPR added to it becuase of this 1 feat. All of the DPR Olympics characters were built using core only, except for some of the newer ones which have encorperated the APG.
2. I am not sure if alter self grantd you the stat adjustments for small size. You suffer no strength penalty, and only gain +2 dex, I think. It also does not say you get the bonus to hit or AC for changing size, which other polymorph spells do. I haven't used the spell much, and it is not worded the same as other polymorph spells.
3. You are a prepared caster, unlike a Bard, so you must assign your spells. Your nova routine is using 1 4th, 2 3rd, 1 second, and at least 2 1st for those stats and everything. That is half of his spell resources, as well as a 1/day magic item.
4. You already know you screwed up concentration checks.
5, Casting some of your buffs would be better off being cast on someone else. Improved Invisibility will increase a rogue's DPR significantly more, for instance.

Caineach wrote:

Lorekeeper, I am fully aware that the magus can dish out large ammounts of damage, eventually. But a simmilarly buffed any other character will dish out more, and often spend less resources doing it. That is the Magus's great advantage though. He can buff and fight at the same time.

As you say, it is the Magus' advantage that he can buff-n-punt. Sure others can do crazy damage when buffed up; but the DPR Olympics are about the individual characters. It is clear that the Fighter is a better melee hero than anybody; and with comparable buffs on Fighter and Magus the Fighter will obviously make shishkebab out of the Magus.

The Magus DPR simply have to account for his ability to buff/or/fireball in combat. This build is a slice of the "can do" for the Magus class - and such things need to be explored for the purposes of playtesting.

I am content with having a well-rounded hero that is a credit to his party.

Quote:

1. Your build uses a non-standard feat from pre-pathfinder setting material, which, as far as I am aware, has not been reprinted for Pathfinder. It is relying on this to be able to focus solely on 1 physical stat, and it gets a huge ammount of DPR added to it becuase of this 1 feat. All of the DPR Olympics characters were built using core only, except for some of the newer ones which have encorperated the APG.

Yes, I am aware of that. This does not preclude theoretical builds. MiB stated that limiting to core-only is not essential, provided that the discrepancies are clearly documented. In defense of the feat:

Qadira was published just weeks before the Pathfinder Core Rulebook; and as stated by the Paizo officials it was partially core-rule-updated to give the first sneak-peak published material of the core rules. Admittedly this does not make it core material - but the feat is sufficiently core to be legal for Pathfinder Society play.

Quote:

2. I am not sure if alter self grantd you the stat adjustments for small size. You suffer no strength penalty, and only gain +2 dex, I think. It also does not say you get the bonus to hit or AC for changing size, which other polymorph spells do. I haven't used the spell much, and it is not worded the same as other polymorph spells.

I'm reasonably sure that my interpretation is correct. Alter self is a polymorph spell and the polymorph rules are quite specific about what happens at size changes.

Quote:

3. You are a prepared caster, unlike a Bard, so you must assign your spells. Your nova routine is using 1 4th, 2 3rd, 1 second, and at least 2 1st for those stats and everything. That is half of his spell resources, as well as a 1/day magic item.

The DPR is given for all cases (if you count the next post too). He can typically do 3 fights with haste and 1 fight also with greater invisibility. Nothing difficult to understand here. The Magus is a limited caster, naturally this has a dramatic impact on the DPR he has at any given time.

My build does not give an indication of the exact expected DPR of the Magus for all circumstances with all permutations. Any situation that you would want to know you'd have to extrapolate from the data a bit. Exhaustive build and DPR descriptions are both tedious and prone to incompleteness. I was striving to provide as much comprehensible information in as little words as possible. You may differ on the success of this.

Quote:

4. You already know you screwed up concentration checks.

Yes yes agreed. It is bothersome, but a 5% fail chance to cast haste is not going to give me sleepless nights. The build can be changed to squeeze out that 1 extra modifier of Int to get 100% haste-cast-chance. As said previously, I am content with having a well-rounded hero that is a credit to his party.

Quote:

5, Casting some of your buffs would be better off being cast on someone else. Improved Invisibility will increase a rogue's DPR significantly more, for instance.

Yes, of course. And more buffs on the Magus will make him more awesome too. A rogue merely needs to be in flanking to get his DPR up - it's not essential for his DPR to get greater invisibility. In case of the Magus the greater invisibility is 50% more DPR, and 50% more defense. The squishy-ness of the Magus in melee is something that any build *must* address.

Naturally, in real-world play with an actual party, the Magus will most readily be able and willing to share his resources with the party - and his resources being able to full-round attack and cast spells are very valuable contributions. Statements to the contrary are willfully ignorant. And not a deciding factor in his performance in the DPR Olympics.

It is obvious that the Magus is not the hardest hitting butterfly in the park - and that isn't his primary purpose. It is also not the Magus' job to be able to deal ridiculous DPR on every round all day long. But (even with some small flaws) I think the build shows his performance is very respectable and that he's by no means an underpowered class.

LoreKeeper wrote:
I'm reasonably sure that my interpretation is correct. Alter self is a polymorph spell and the polymorph rules are quite specific about what happens at size changes.
From the core rulebook:
Quote:

If a polymorph spell is cast on a creature that is smaller than Small or larger than Medium, f irst adjust its ability scores to one of these two sizes using the following table before applying the bonuses granted by the polymorph spell.

As you're medium size you only get the bonuses listed.

LoreKeeper wrote:

He can typically do 3 fights with haste and 1 fight also with greater invisibility.

Then you're going to need to remove the keen edge pre-buff on him as well, as he can't do both.

Also you have a 10% chance to fail to cast haste, but you can elect to burn a swift action and a 1st or 2nd level slot to haste for 1-2 rounds via the magus arcana. You just loose the +3 damage as you won't have the swift action to activate it then.

Mind you the character is burning through his resources entirely on combat here. The vaunted 'other things' he can do is subsumed as he's burning everything to keep up. For purposes of this comparison that's fine, but in practice it's rough.

I would suggest again that you would have the DPR with/without haste, but that's just me. Personally I don't see why boots of speed were disallowed as any archer by this point is going to have a pair, and most melees will be looking to get one. Normally this happens far before the +3 weapon occurs. This arbitrary set of rules does skew things here I'm afraid.

Anyway, if you're looking at 3 combats a day then you will fail to successfully cast haste around 27.1% of the time which IS significant.

-James

I bow to your superior insight. Nonetheless the build is pretty solid and playable.

If you're willing to ignore the power attack (adds 5ish to the DPR) - then you can get 16 Int, reducing the Haste fail chance to 5%; and correspondingly a 14.2% fail chance to get haste of during the day.

Hey guys, has anyone rebuilt an Inquisitor character since APG came out? I'm wondering if there were big changes to what I saw a few months back on here, and my friend is considering playing one and wants to do lots damage.

LoreKeeper wrote:

I bow to your superior insight. Nonetheless the build is pretty solid and playable.

If you're willing to ignore the power attack (adds 5ish to the DPR) - then you can get 16 Int, reducing the Haste fail chance to 5%; and correspondingly a 14.2% fail chance to get haste of during the day.

Since you used Weapon Bond for enhancement bonus, switching both of those to d6 energy damage will give you an effect superior to Power Attack on a one-handed weapon (-2 to hit, +5 to damage) except that it doesn't multiply on a crit. This should let you lower the strength and choose a different feat.

Carpy DM wrote:
Fiddling a bit with Howard to turn him into a Warren the Weapon Adept Monk (quarterstaff - same logic about two-handed Power Attack being a Good Thing) seems to point to him being fairly close to Howard, not conting Howard's steal ki bonuses; the trick, though, is that Perfect Strike doubles the odds of hitting with an iterative attack (and almost triples the odds of rolling a critical threat - still don't know how to calculate the confirmation), which seems like it would be extremely useful for boosting Warren's DPR at key moments, even setting aside the ki pool question. (Also, Warren gets Weapon Focus for free, opening up room for Extra Ki, which helps make up somewhat for the lack of steal ki.)

You can actually combine Weapon Adept with Ki Mystic. Gives you a few more ki points to play with (and some other options too).

I want to build a mystic adept temple sword user who uses dazzling display, followed by perfect strike/shatter defenses+ Medusa's Wrath. Should be interesting...

james maissen wrote:

I would suggest again that you would have the DPR with/without haste, but that's just me. Personally I don't see why boots of speed were disallowed as any archer by this point is going to have a pair, and most melees will be looking to get one. Normally this happens far before the +3 weapon occurs. This arbitrary set of rules does skew things here I'm afraid.

Anyway, if you're looking at 3 combats a day then you will fail to successfully cast haste around 27.1% of the time which IS significant.

-James

An archer would have boots of speed IF they didn't already have a different source of haste. If you have a bard in your party who regularly uses haste on the first round of combat why would you have boots of haste? You have to draw a line in the sand somewhere. Limited uses per day items are all out. That includes the robes of blending.

A nice thing to note is that when the magus uses haste on round 1, they are giving haste to everyone, not just themselves.

Charender wrote:

An archer would have boots of speed IF they didn't already have a different source of haste. If you have a bard in your party who regularly uses haste on the first round of combat why would you have boots of haste? You have to draw a line in the sand somewhere. Limited uses per day items are all out. That includes the robes of blending.

Spellcasters don't always have the luxury of being able to cast haste in round one.

Likewise targets for it might not be grouped within 30' diameter sphere of one another, or all seen by the caster.

Archers, being able to take full attacks almost every round will have boots of speed.

The rules for this thread distort such things and it is important to realize this.

If spells are allowed in this comparison then items that replicate them need to be as well. Both are limited resources.

Anyway, that's my gripe with this thread and has been from the get go. If you want to take anything useful from here then the builds need to be reasonable to fit in with typical groups rather than being skewed to these arbitrary rules.

-James

james maissen wrote:
Charender wrote:

An archer would have boots of speed IF they didn't already have a different source of haste. If you have a bard in your party who regularly uses haste on the first round of combat why would you have boots of haste? You have to draw a line in the sand somewhere. Limited uses per day items are all out. That includes the robes of blending.

Spellcasters don't always have the luxury of being able to cast haste in round one.

Likewise targets for it might not be grouped within 30' diameter sphere of one another, or all seen by the caster.

Archers, being able to take full attacks almost every round will have boots of speed.

The rules for this thread distort such things and it is important to realize this.

If spells are allowed in this comparison then items that replicate them need to be as well. Both are limited resources.

Anyway, that's my gripe with this thread and has been from the get go. If you want to take anything useful from here then the builds need to be reasonable to fit in with typical groups rather than being skewed to these arbitrary rules.

-James

Yes, they can't always cast it in round, but still, if you have a spellcaster willing to cast haste, it drastically devalues an item like boots of haste.

Sure the where the caster may have to wait to cast haste, but there are also fights where haste gets pre-cast or cast in the surprise round.

Boots of speed are a great magic item, but only if you don't already have reliable access to haste. I just cannot see an archer bard taking them for example. Depending on the exact party makeup, you might be better off pooling the money you would have spent on the boots of speed with the rest of the party, and getting a lesser rod of quicken for the party haste bot.

These are the kinds of things that you get into when looking are these buffs, and this is probably why MiB wanted to avoid limited use items and/or several rounds of buffing.

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