So for bypassing DR it would add to what? Which claw attack?
Not being a melee attack, it wouldn't be subject to DR at all. Compare falling damage.
My formula for rend chance is different... you need both the main hand and the off-hand to hit, so you need to calculate the total hit chance for each hand separately, then compound them for the chance that both hands hit. (You got it right that for each individual hand you get the total chance of a single hit by compounding misses instead.) The formula used by my spreadsheet would come out as follows:
(1 - (0.45 * 0.7 * 1 * 1)) * (1 - (0.45 * 0.7 * 1))
= (1 - .315) * (1 - .315)
= .685 * .685
= .469225, or 46.9225%.
I thought I was missing something. That does make Power Attack marginally less effective, especially since Two-Weapon Rend "[deals] an additional 1d10 points of damage plus 1-1/2 times your Strength modifier." As far as swapping Two-Weapon Rend for Critical Focus, it's the 10th level Combat Style bonus feat; taking Greater Two-Weapon Fighting for a third iterative off-hand attack at -10 is even less effective (8.8725 vs. 12.8122 even with +6 on attack and damage rolls from Favored Enemy). The 9th level feat choice is between Improved Critical and Critical Focus, which is no choice (increase kukri criticals by +100% or all criticals by +20%).
Revised results, plus Favored Enemy stats:
Two-Weapon Fighting: +17/+12 (1d4+8, 15-20/x2) and +14/+9 (1d4+8, 15-20/x2) and rend (1d10+9, 69.7225%)
DPR vs. AC 24 = (.7 * (10.5 + (.3 * 10.5))) + (.45 * (10.5 + (.3 * 10.5))) + (.7 * (10.5 + (.3 * 10.5))) + (.45 * (10.5 + (.3 * 10.5))) + (.697225 * 14.5) = 9.555 + 6.1425 + 9.555 + 6.1425 + 10.109762 =
Cheetah (using PA): +9 (1d6+9) and +9/+9 (1d3+9)
DPR vs. AC 24 = (.3 * (12.5 + (.05 * 12.5))) + (.3 * (11 + (.05 * 11))) + (.3 * (11 + (.05 * 11))) = 3.9375 + 3.465 + 3.465 =
Total DPR = 41.504762 + 10.8675 =
Against a +2 Favored Enemy: +19/+14 (1d4+10, 15-20/x2) and +19/+14 (1d4+10, 15-20/x2) and rend (1d10+9, 82.81%)
DPR vs. AC 24 = (.8 * (12.5 + (.3 * 12.5))) + (.55 * (12.5 + (.3 * 12.5))) +(.8 * (12.5 + (.3 * 12.5))) + (.55 * (12.5 + (.3 * 12.5))) + (.8281 * 14.5) = 13 + 8.9375 + 13 + 8.9375 + 12.00745 =
Against a +2 Favored Enemy w/PA: +16/+11 (1d4+16, 15-20/x2) and +16/+11 (1d4+13, 15-20/x2) and rend (1d10+9, 62.41%)
DPR vs. AC 24 = (.65 * (18.5 + (.3 * 18.5))) + (.4 * (18.5 + (.3 * 18.5))) + (.65 * (15.5 + (.3 * 15.5))) + (.4 * (15.5 + (.3 * 15.5))) + (.6241 * 14.5) = 15.6325 + 9.62 + 13.0975 + 8.06 + 9.04945 =
Not Power Attacking is still marginally better, but less than a .5 DPR difference.
Cheetah: +11 (1d6+11, 20/x2) and +11/+11 (1d3+11, 20/x2)
DPR vs. AC 24 = (.4 * (14.5 + (.05 * 14.5))) + (.4 * (13 + (.05 * 13))) + (.4 * (13 + (.05 * 13))) = 6.09 + 5.46 + 5.46 =
Total DPR = 55.88245 + 17.01 =
Against a +4 Favored Enemy w/PA: +18/+13 (1d4+18, 15-20/x2) and +18/+13 (1d4+15, 15-20/x2) and rend (1d10+9, 76.5625%)
DPR vs. AC 24 = (.75 * (20.5 + (.3 * 20.5))) + (.5 * (20.5 + (.3 * 20.5))) + (.75 * (17.5 + (.3 * 17.5))) + (.5 * (17.5 + (.3 * 17.5))) + (.765625 * 14.5) = 19.9875 + 13.325 + 17.0625 + 11.375 + 11.101562 =
Cheetah: +13 (1d6+13, 20/x2) and +13/+13 (1d3+13, 20/x2)
DPR vs. AC 24 = (.5 * (16.5 + (.05 * 16.5))) + (.5 * (15 + (.05 * 15))) + (.5 * (15 + (.05 * 15))) = 8.6625 + 7.875 + 7.875 =
Total DPR = 72.851562 + 24.4125 =
Against a +6 Favored Enemy w/PA: +20/+15 (1d4+20, 15-20/x2) and +20/+15 (1d4+17, 15-20/x2) and rend (1d10+9, 88.36%)
DPR vs. AC 24 = (.85 * (22.5 + (.3 * 22.5))) + (.6 * (22.5 + (.3 * 22.5))) + (.85 * (19.5 + (.3 * 19.5))) + (.6 * (19.5 + (.3 * 19.5))) + (.8836 * 14.5) = 24.8625 + 17.55 + 21.5475 + 15.21 + 12.8122 =
Cheetah: +15 (1d6+15, 20/x2) and +15/+15 (1d3+15, 20/x2)
DPR vs. AC 24 = (.6 * (18.5 + (.05 * 18.5))) + (.6 * (17 + (.05 * 17))) + (.6 * (17 + (.05 * 17))) = 11.655 + 10.71 + 10.71 =
Total DPR = 91.9822 + 33.075 =
The summoner's eidolon is still doing comparable damage against everything... Which is pretty sick.
Like deathmaster above, I see Rend in the same category as sneak attack: conditional extra damage.
No. Rend is not even remotely comparable to sneak attack. Sneak attack's damage is added to the damage from another attack and adds to that attack's ability to penetrate damage reduction, among other things. Rend does not.
Here, I completely disagree. A power attack is a reckless, wide swing. Thereafter diverting the angle to tear flesh from two points of contact (i.e., to rend) is considerably more difficult, not less so.
Yes. That's why I said it's obvious that the decreased chance to hit with the two claw attacks for a more powerful rend makes sense. It IS harder. I'm glad you agree with me.
You did gain the benefit. At least 1.5 times, in fact.
Are you intentionally ignoring what I said? Rend has a penalty to triggering when you Power Attack, but by your very strange and not at all supported by any rules interpretation, it has no bonus to match.
Not being a melee attack, it wouldn't be subject to DR at all. Compare falling damage.
OK, this is just silly. You're saying that a Rending creature that does 1d3+3 Claw damage and 1d3+4 Rend damage fighting a monster with DR 100/epic could hit twice with its claws, deal no damage, and miraculously Rend for 1d3+4 damage that bypasses DR? I'm sorry, that's ludicrous. Remember, Rend doesn't require damage to fire, it requires hits.
Also, arrows aren't melee attacks. I'm sure FighterMan would be glad to know he ignores DR.
I'd really like some help with this build. I'm rather at a loss as to how to increase the damage here. After the +str/dex belt, I can't think of another item that might help the damage output, aside from the Ioun stone that gives +1 to attacks (which Shirly can't afford). <-optimizing newbie
Shirly the Shuriken chucker
Monk 10
str 18 +4 (14 base, +4 belt,
dex 22 +6 (15 base, +4 belt, 2 racial, 1 level
con 12 +1
int 10
wis 16 +3 (13 base, 1 level, +2 headband
cha 8
HP:54
AC:26/25 10+6dex+3wis+2monk+2bracers+1neck+1ring+1dodge
Ref: 16
Fort 11
Will 13
Gear:
Belt +4 str/dex, 40k
Natural armor neck +1 2k
prot ring +1 2k
cloak of resistance +3 9k
Headband +2 wisdom, 4k
Bracers of armor +2 4k
300 shuriken 60 gp
940 gp left
Feats:
Dodge
Deflect arrows
Mobility
Improved critical (shuriken)
Weapon focus (shuriken)
Deadly Aim
Point Blank shot
Rapid Shot
Far shot
Attacks: Shuriken 11,11,11,6,6 (d2+10 damage)
Assuming GMW from a party member: Shuriken 13,13,13,8,8 (d2+12 damage)
Lone DPR: 18.98
With Ki point: 24.035
GMW DPR: 29.7
With Ki point: 37.125
I have another build with +3 magic shuriken that trounces Shirly at 35 DPR and 48 with a ki point, but it's not at all realistic considering that's an 18k expenditure on a consumable item. Thinking I'll house-rule that one. Maybe I'll start a homebrew DPR thread so that there's a place to figure out how house-rules affect things.
Yeah I was a bit surprised when I noticed those are only for bows. Is there any thrown weapon build that's really viable using core?
Guess I'll just use a beefier house-ruled version of this for an NPC boss, unless there's something we're just totally missing. Shame really, a shuriken monk just sounded like such a cool idea.
For the purposes of this thread, Rend (and all variations) benefits from Power Attack.
Check. I'm gonna go hit up the rules forum in hopes of an official clarification, though. (I'll happily accept either answer. I'm on the other side of the fence, but only by a hair.)
For the moment, anyone using my DPR calculator should be aware that it does not apply Power Attack to Rend, pending clarification. (Doing this particular edit yourself is not a difficult thing, though.)
Yeah, the more I consider Shuriken for Monks, the more I think it's an OK fallback at low levels to get a full attack when otherwise you wouldn't be able to,
but I'm wondering whether it makes a viable dedicated build. Really, you need a DPR higher than 37 when you are spending Ki. Melvin does 50 DPR with Ki spent.
I note you are defensively stronger (Cloak of Resistance +3 plus 3 good saves for example), but I'm not sure how you could remanage your cash to increase offensive output. The Ioun stone you speak of is going to be out of reach financially...
Treating Shuriken as ammunition really hurts. Otherwise you would have some options...
Ok, so posting while half asleep we all know is bad.. and writing formulas while half asleep is bad as well. I was doing hit chance wrong, I was just dividing attack bonus by AC needed... so now I redid it using 1-((AC-attbonus-1)*0.05)
See previous post for stats, and I had a couple typos in the crunchy bits spoiler, but attacks are:
4 claws +21 (2d6+12+d6)
2 wings +18 (d6+7+d6)
power attacks:
4 claws +18 (2d6+18+d6)
2 wings +15 (d6+10+d6)
with correct hit chance, average damage on claws are 20.25 and the crit damage brings it to 21.96 each. (math for crit is average damage without the lightning, 19, times hit chance, 90%) times crit chance, 10%)
Wings are 10.89 (only 5% crit chance counted in)
with power attack the claws damage is 23.25 with crit counted in. Wings are 10.61
So total damage is only 109.63 normal and 114.21 power attacking.
Damage for the summoner himself is down to 19.86
so total for both working together is 134.07
If the summoner does a Haste instead of attacking though, the damage for that round is: 146.98 :)
If anyone would like to see an optimal Eidolon let me know and I will take the time to build one made for doing raw damage.
*Edit: I know this isnt playtest data, but should this be mentioned in the Summoner play test board showing the raw numbers? I think this is kind of broken*
**second edit: for those concerned about the +3 amulet of mighty fist, the damage with a +2 is 106.24 for the Eidolon and summoner is still 19.86 for a total of 126.1 for the two working together and 137.46 if the summoner cast haste instead of attacking.**
Chris Cuisinart: Human Fighter 9/ Barbarian 1
Favored Weapon: +2 Double Bladed Swords (2WF)
Base (Enhanced) Stats: Str 18(22) DEX15(17) CON 13 INT 10 WIS 12 CHA 8 w/ Elite Array @1st
DPR: 77.74 (Rage)/ 61.32(without) Standard Attack (Vital Strike): 38.39(Rage)/ 31.82(without)
Google Spreadsheet Link: (counting Rage Bonus) here
Feats & Class Abilities:
Weapon Focus: Double Sword
Two Weapon Fighting
Double Slice
Weapon Spec: Double Sword
Power Attack {-3/+9 dmg 2H/ +6 dmg 1H }
Improved 2WF
Improved Critical: Double Sword
Bonus: Greater Weapon Focus
Critical Focus
Vital Strike
Bravery +2
Armor Training +2: {Full movement in Heavy, -2 ACP/+2 MaxDex}
Weapon Training +2: Heavy Blades (incl. Falchion and Double Sword)
Weapon Training +1: ???
Rage: +4 STR & CON, +2 Will Saves, -2 AC
Gear:
Tejon, your DPR Calculator spreadsheet gave results extremely close to what I came up with myself, but I'm curious: next to the heading for Primary and Off-hand weapon, it gives a calculated result which seem to be the DPR resulting from that specific 'hand'/weapon (they seem to add up to the total DPR). But the Off-hand weapon is always listed as less DPR, even though the attack bonuses are completely matched between them and with Double Slice the damage bonuses are as well. The totals add up, but this bit confuses me...?
...I realized I used less than the 62.5k WBL for the previous 2WF Fighter. Switching gear around, ditching AC Bonus items for just +1 Fullplate, I can afford a +3/+2 Double Sword instead (to-hit helps the 2WF), with ~3k still left over... which results in:
Chris Cuisinart "Make-Over Edition": Human Fighter 9/ Barbarian 1
Favored Weapon: +3/+2 Double Bladed Sword (2WF)
Base (Enhanced) Stats: Str 18(22) DEX15(17) CON 13 INT 10 WIS 12 CHA 8 w/ Elite Array @1st
DPR: 82.24 (Rage)/ 65.6 (without) Standard Attack (Vital Strike): 41.33 (Rage)/ 34.51 (without)
Google Spreadsheet Link: (counting Rage Bonus) here
Feats & Class Abilities: (identical to before)
Weapon Focus: Double Sword
Two Weapon Fighting
Double Slice
Weapon Spec: Double Sword
Power Attack {-3/+9 dmg 2H/ +6 dmg 1H }
Improved 2WF
Improved Critical: Double Sword
Bonus: Greater Weapon Focus
Critical Focus
Vital Strike
Bravery +2
Armor Training +2: {Full movement in Heavy, -2 ACP/+2 MaxDex}
Weapon Training +2: Heavy Blades (incl. Falchion and Double Sword)
Weapon Training +1: ???
Rage: +4 STR & CON, +2 Will Saves, -2 AC
Gear:
+3/+2 double sword (26,660 gp),
belt of giant strength +6 (16,000 gp),
cloak of resistance +2 (4,000 gp),
handy haversack (2,000 gp),
ioun stone (deep red sphere, +2 enhancement Dex) (8,000 gp),
3,000 gp of other items
I also made a non-2WF using (Exotic) Elven Curveblade (Falchion would give almost as good results for 1 extra Feat to play with). Not needing DEX boost items and only having 1 weapon, he was able to grab a Belt of Giant Strength +6 instead of +4. Even with Exotic Proficiency, he has 3 Feats left over for stuff like Skill Focus: Animal Handling (or Lunge, Cleave, etc):
Curvy Camila: Human Fighter 9/ Barbarian 1
Favored Weapon: +3 Elven Curve Blade
Base (Enhanced) Stats: Str 18(24) DEX 14 CON 14 INT 10 WIS 12 CHA 8 w/ Elite Array @1st
DPR: 84.68 (Rage)/ 73.87 (without) Standard Attack (Vital Strike): 50.3 (Rage)/ 46.6 (without)
Google Spreadsheet Link: (counting Rage Bonus) here
Feats & Class Abilities:
Weapon Focus: Elven Curveblade
Weapon Spec: Elven Curveblade
Power Attack {-3/+9 dmg 2H/ +6 dmg 1H }
Improved Critical: Elven Curveblade
Greater Weapon Focus: Elven Curveblade
Critical Focus
Vital Strike
- Anything
- Anything
- Anything
Bravery +2
Armor Training +2: {Full movement in Heavy, -2 ACP/+2 MaxDex}
Weapon Training +2: Heavy Blades (incl. Elven Curveblade)
Weapon Training +1: ???
Rage: +4 STR & CON, +2 Will Saves, -2 AC
Gear:
+1 full plate (2,650 gp),
+3 elven curveblade (8,080 gp),
belt of giant strength +6 (36,000 gp),
cloak of resistance +2 (4,000 gp),
handy haversack (2,000 gp),
~3000k leftover
@Tejon: I think how Secondary Natural Attacks are calculated is off (or rather, how they effect total DPR)
I wanted to see how "Curvy Camila" would do by giving up 1 level of Fighter (with Weapon Training) for another level of Barbarian (to get Animal Fury's Claw attack, aka "Curvy Camila gone Wild", which I could get WF/WS/GWF for). EVEN BEFORE subtracting the one level of Weapon Training, when I only enabled the Secondary Natural Attack (in other words, it should just be adding damage, since it is just adding an attack @ -5BAB), the DPR goes down... I think it's because it's applying an attack penalty to the main-hand, but Animal Fury doesn't do that, it just gives you a free extra attack. Losing Weapon Training +2 WILL have some negative effect, but the current set-up isn't revealing the trade-off accurately.
For the purposes of this thread, Rend (and all variations) benefits from Power Attack.
If someone really wants to argue about this, I suggest some other thread.
Rules forum had a reply
Rend adds damage to an attack; it's not an attack in and of itself. Just as power attack won't increase sneak attack damage or constrict damage, it won't increase rend damage (although it DOES increase the damage inflicted by the attacks that are necessary to trigger rend in the first place). Rake attacks ARE attacks, so power attack applies there.
Rend kills enough PCs anyway. There's no need to increase its damage, for the same reason there's no reason to tie a machine gun onto a nuclear bomb!
Quandary, have you tried turning off Power Attack? The results you're getting sound like what I see when PA + TWF is attempted without enough of a hit bonus. Half-PA to the off-hand would also account for the numbers being different. (Double Slice does not apply to Power Attack, unless there's been a forum clarification that I didn't see.)
Quandary, have you tried turning off Power Attack? The results you're getting sound like what I see when PA + TWF is attempted without enough of a hit bonus. Half-PA to the off-hand would also account for the numbers being different. (Double Slice does not apply to Power Attack, unless there's been a forum clarification that I didn't see.)
Yeah, that fixed it... The spread-sheet 'hiding' those numbers from me must have made me over-look that.
...Have any idea about why enabling Natural Attack for Animal Fury is dropping the total DPR?Quandary, a +4 belt is not 16000 gold. Plus, the characters look a little glass-cannon-y; can you show a whole character sheet to get a good idea of the defensive tradeoffs?
Er, meant that a +6 belt is not 16000 gold. Fixed that in an edit but it got eaten by the forums being laggy.
Funnily enough, the +6 was a type-O on the GEAR for Chris Cuisinart, but his STR (and the spreadsheet) is calculated only with a +4 Belt, which IS 16k gold. Curvy Camila does have a +6 belt, and she's paying the big bucks for it, which she can afford because she doesn't need DEX for 2WF nor a Double Weapon.
...Yeah, they're both HELLA glass cannon-y*.
...Which seems the inevitable outcome if you're comparing builds solely on the basis of Full Attack DPR.
I mean, I still stand by my advice that only dipping 1 level into Barbarian is a waste in PRPG, and I totally think full Barbarian builds, or maybe with 3 levels of Fighter, can be insanely great... From looking at people's Barbarian builds here, they definitely aren't going to compare with Full Attack DPR, but that's really a small part of the game (and Barbarians have some great tricks to prevent getting Full Attacked themselves - Unexpected Strike/Trip/Knockback FTW).
I didn't include the AC or Saves or other stuff because they met the assumed minimums for this comparison.
Both builds meet the minimum Will Save exactly (+3 Base, +1 Will, +2 Cloak, +2 Rage).
Chris Cuisinart has AC 23, curvy Camilla has AC 22.
* Though Camila has 3 Feats to spare, or 4 if she ditches ECB for Falchion, so with Iron Will/Imp Iron Will/Toughness/Lunge (for example) she could probably be decently viable. Dumping more CHA for CON/WIS would be viable in point buy, and even without dumping CHA more, a normal point buy like PFS' 20 Points would yield better secondary stats than what NPC Elite Array gives, so that side of defence would certainly be better taken care of. The 2WF guy has NOTHING to spare though, he's just a race horse :-).
The spread-sheet 'hiding' those numbers from me must have made me over-look that.
Hehe... yeah, I'm trying to keep it fairly well condensed and un-cluttered, so only the really odd cases (rend, manyshot) are fully broken out. However, you should at least see the difference in PA bonus reflected in the "Static +damage" cells, H7 for primary and H16 for off-hand.
Funnily enough, the +6 was a type-O on the GEAR for Chris Cuisinart, but his STR (and the spreadsheet) is calculated only with a +4 Belt, which IS 16k gold. Curvy Camila does have a +6 belt, and she's paying the big bucks for it, which she can afford because she doesn't need DEX for 2WF nor a Double Weapon.
Problem though is you only paid for a +2 weapon, not a +3 for her. a +3 weapon is 18300+ the base weapon (18000 for magic and 300 for masterwork) So either the belt or the weapon needs to drop down
Problem though is you only paid for a +2 weapon, not a +3 for her. a +3 weapon is 18300+ the base weapon (18000 for magic and 300 for masterwork) So either the belt or the weapon needs to drop down
Ugg... Same type of deal,
I didn't update the Gear list 100% when I was adjusting stuff after I realized they were undergeared.Using the correct cost (18,380), it looks like she actually ends up 530 gp over WBL. Whatever. :-)
The thread has a new winner!!! :P
(to my understanding, the purpose of the thread was to compare the offensive capabilities of the classes. Correct me if I'm wrong, so when I'm referring to "winner", I'm not referring to a poster, I'm referring to a class.)
"The DPR Olympics". Right, who could think that's a competition.
BTW, where's the medals being handed out for "Winning Initiative", "Preventing Enemy Full-Attacks", "Removing Enemy Favored Weapons", "Non-HP Disabling of Enemies"? Oh, right, this IS the DPR Olympics.
Like Treantmonk said, it's not a competition any of us people are winning, it's a comparison between builds. Like *I* said, this competition/comparison is a pretty fragile basis upon which to design an actual character around, and in fact I enthused on the abilities of pure (or mostly pure) Barbarian builds in real game-play, even though in a DPR comparison (at least for Full Attacks) they fall well short.
FYI, I just grabbed 'my' gear list from another poster (who had used a lower WBL), and just updated it to the proper WBL. Essentially the exact same items were present in 'his' build (he had a Orc Double Axe in his build), the only things I removed were various Wondrous Item AC buffs because Fullplate +1 was more cost effective for the same AC (he had Rhinohide which buffs Charge Attacks as well), and then spent the remaining money on upgrading weapon/belt to match the expected WBL. For the Curvy Camila character, I just removed a DEX buff Ioun Stone and the 2WF Feats as they weren't needed... Pretty much all straight-vanilla standard stuff. The average of the two characters' remaining money is on-par with other builds I've seen here, and I've hardly seen a profusion of 'utility items' not applicable to DPR or meeting the minimum AC/Saves in other builds' gear lists either. If you're interested in 'more realistic' builds, go ahead and open the spreadsheet and drop one of the weapons down a Enhancement notch to get the DPR and spend that chunk of change on some utility gear. I'd definitely recommend it if you're using this as the basis for a real character, PC or NPC.
Inconceivable, the Human Arcane Trickster
Wizard 3, Rogue 3, Arcane Trickster 4
I promise to finish him later but I gotta go and wanted to get this up here real fast for some initial comments.
Str 8
Dex 21
Con 13
Int 16
Wis 10
Cha 12
Abilities that matter:
Sneak Attack +4d6
Wizard Caster Level 7
Combat Trick
Feats That Matter:
Maximize Spell
Weapon Finesse
Two-Weapon Fighting
Improved Two-Weapon Fighting
Gear:
+4 Belt Dexterity
+2 Headband of Intellect
Best Attack:
Maximized Chill Touch Full Sneak Attack:
Attack 1: +9 vs Touch AC 13 (80%) dealing 6+4d6 damage = 80%(6+12)+(5%*1*80%*6) = 14.4 + .24 = 14.64
Attack 2: +4 vs Touch AC 13 (55%) dealing 6+4d6 damage
55%(6+12)+(5%*1*55%*6) = 9.9 + .165 = 10.065
Attack 3: +9 vs Touch AC 13 (80%) dealing 6+4d6 damage
80%(6+12)+(5%*1*80%*6) = 14.4 + .24 = 14.64
Attack 4: +4 vs Touch AC 13 (55%) dealing 6+4d6 damage
55%(6+12)+(5%*1*55%*6) = 9.9 + .165 = 10.065
DPR = 49.41
This assumes 2 things:
1) The average touch AC for a character like this is about 13
2) We're assuming that Weapon Focus does not allow for melee Touch Attacks as a type of attack (even though it allows rays)
If we were to increase the average Touch AC to 14 and allow Weapon focus it'd be a wash.
Also, this is only the version that has NO BUFFS and a VERY limited gear list. I am at work and can't extrapolate this further for now... I need to get his AC up and stuff i know but I got excited when I saw the thread.
Let me know if I effed anything up.
EDIT: I effed up the primary crit damage.
Nice one Loopy,
Melee Touch Attack IS eligible for Weapon Focus I believe (or you could just use WF: Unarmed Strike)
and you can just use the typical Touch AC listed for a CR10 Monster in the PRD Monster Creation section.
...I would probably take Improved Critical (X) for Melee Touch/Unarmed. I'm not sure if it qualifies for Critical Focus, but that one would help too. Maybe you could Alter Self into a form with extra attack(s)?
Nice one Loopy,
Melee Touch Attack IS eligible for Weapon Focus I believe (or you could just use WF: Unarmed Strike)
and you can just use the typical Touch AC listed for a CR10 Monster in the PRD Monster Creation section....I would probably take Improved Critical (X) for Melee Touch/Unarmed. I'm not sure if it qualifies for Critical Focus, but that one would help too. Maybe you could Alter Self into a form with extra attack(s)?
Thanks, however, I just realized that I don't get Base Attack Bonus +6 until level 10 and therefore couldn't have Improved Two-Weapon Fighting. :,( On a bright note, I also forgot the +2 dex for Human.
I know I can make an Arcane Trickster Work for this, Though. I just have to think it through.
Sorry for posting this way too early, guys.
Inconceivable II, the Human Arcane Trickster
Wizard 3, Rogue 3, Arcane Trickster 4Maximized Chill Touch Full Sneak Attack:
Attack 1: +12 vs Touch AC 10 (95%) dealing 6+4d6 damage = 95%(6+12)+(5%*1*95%*6) = 17.1 + .285 = 17.385There are holes in the character build, but they are inconsequential at this point. I guess I could take Craft Wondrous Item and have a +4 to all my stats, but it would be...
Well first thing I believe there is an argument that the sneak dice will be maximized here as well (I don't like the argument but it exists). Likewise empower has some issuance here in potentially multiplying the sneak dice as well.
Even if we are taking the average on 4d6 we get 14 and not 12.
You may wish to flesh out the rest of his spells, etc. Likewise I would, in the spirit of having a real PC here, have a wand of shocking grasp on which he tends to fall back upon when pressed.
-James
Looks like you replied before I deleted it. The one horrible thing I failed to realize was that Arcane Trickster gets 1/2 BAB. This concept is going to take one heck of a lot more shennanigans than I thought. At this point, Inconceivable is living up to his name.
How about a Warblade. This one is specifically designed for this test, not for overall use.
I. B. Broken, human warblade 10
Ability Scores:
STR: 22 (+6) (15 base, +1 level, +2 racial, +4 belt)
DEX: 14 (+2)
CON: 12 (+1)
INT: 16 (+3)
WIS: 10 (+0)
CHA: 8 (-1)
HP: 69 HP (10d10+10)
Saving Throws
Fort: +8 Ref: +8 Will: +5
AC:
Attacks: +2/+2 Double Scimitar (+20/+15 or +18/+18/+13/+13) 2d6+23 dmg or 2d6+17 dmg
(Both assume Punishing Stance)
Special Attacks:
Punishing Stance +1d6 to all melee attacks
Dancing Mongoose swift action to gain one extra attack with both wpns at highest attk bonus
Lightning Recovery Reroll missed attack at +2 as immediate action
Class Abilities:
Weapon Aptitude (Change one wpn feats to any wpn 1/day)
Battle Clarity (Int Bonus on Reflex Saves)
Battle Ardor (Int Bonus on Critical Confirmation)
Battle Cunning (Int Bonus on Dmg vs Flat Footed or Flanked)
Improved Uncanny Dodge
Other non-relevant stuff
BAB: +10 CMB: +16 CMD: 28
Feats:
Exotic Weapon Proficiency Double Scimitar (and every other exotic wpn)
Weapon Focus Double Scimitar (And every other weapon) (racial bonus)
Power Attack
Imporved Initiative (bonus)
Double Slice
Iron Will (bonus)
Weapon Specialization Double Scimitar (And every other weapon)
Improved Critical Double Scimitar (And every other weapon)
Stances:
Punishing Stance
Stonefoot Stance
Dancing Blade Form
Maneuvers:
Stone Bones
Moment of Perfect Mind
Wolf Fang Strike
Rabid Wolf Strike (Replacement of Sudden Leap at 4th)
Dancing Mongoose
Disarming Strike
Exorcism of Steel
Lightning Recovery
Skills:
Maxed out Acrobatics, others, doesn't matter
Gear:
+2/+2 Double Scimitar
Belt of Giant Strength +4
+3 Mithral Breastplate
Amulet of Natural Armor +1
Headband of Vast Intelligence +2
Cloak of Resistance +2
Ring of Protection +1
Handy Haversack
2500 GP in miscellaneous consumables, gear, non-portable goods, etc.
Assuming my math is correct, based on being able to recover all maneuvers every other round by not using any and attacking...
DPR is 126.135 followed by 79.065 so avg per round is 102.6
If you rule that the recovery round must be a single melee attack instead of any melee attack (wherein a full attack works) then:
DPR is 126.135 followed by 33.0525 so avg per round is still 79.59375
Even under the harsher interpretation of the maneuver recovery rule the warblade is highly formidable if not completely superior. I didn't even bother to figure in Lightning Recovery due to the complications of figuring out when it gets used.
Assuming my math is correctIt's not. The feats are wrong, the attack routine doesn't add up, and the defensive stats are suicidal.
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You gave him the extra attack for ITWF but he doesn't have (and does not qualify for) the feat, he doesn't qualify for TWF or Double Slice, and you can't use Dancing Mongoose and Battle Cunning on the same turn since they both use your swift action.
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Also, the math doesn't seem to add up on the attack routine. You have:
Attacks: +2/+2 Double Scimitar (+20/+15 or +18/+18/+13/+13) 2d6+23 dmg or 2d6+17 dmg
I get: 10 BAB + 6 str + 2 magic weapon + 1 weapon focus - 2 TWF for a total of +17.
I'm also curious about the damage. For damage, I get d6 weapon + d6 stance + 6 str + 2 magic + 2 weapon spec + 3 int (conditionally) for a total of 2d6+10 (2d6+13 when flanking).
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You also made an AC 21 melee character with much less HP than the other melee characters. A fire giant kills him stone dead in one full attack. (83.49 average DPR to your face.) That's not playable.
That's what i get for writing it up while at work in 15 minutes I guess. But Battle Cunning is always in effect, no swift action required. Also, a fire giant is going to kill any of these classes one on one in a toe to toe battle. In fact, using the elite array you're not getting better than 10d10+20 without being a barbarian or taking toughness and that still doesn't survive the dmg.
That's what i get for writing it up while at work in 15 minutes I guess. But Battle Cunning is always in effect, no swift action required. Also, a fire giant is going to kill any of these classes one on one in a toe to toe battle. In fact, using the elite array you're not getting better than 10d10+20 without being a barbarian or taking toughness and that still doesn't survive the dmg.
Survivability is not just about HPs. Higher AC lowers the giant's DPR.
You also made an AC 21 melee character with much less HP than the other melee characters. A fire giant kills him stone dead in one full attack. (83.49 average DPR to your face.) That's not playable.
I am only counting 20 AC.
9 breastplate +32 dex
1 amulet of nat armor
-2 punishing stance
so even more dead :)
It starts with Limbs (arms), Limbs (legs), and claws. I guess this one has to be really clever to use all of its attack, but as far as I can tell there's nothing wrong with putting claw attacks on its legs.
The only thing wrong with it would be the GM saying no as if you look at the beastiary, with a few minor exceptions bipeds dont attack with their feet. The ones that do that I found arent really bipeds, and their feet attacks are called "talons"
Amulet of Mighty Fists +3
Pale Blue Ioun Stone (+2 str)
They might not be able to use Ioun stones, there is a set list of what they can use. Not sure if Jason intends for them to use slotless items. Note that potions are specifically referenced.
10x claw: +26 (19-20 x2) 2d6 + 14
power attack 10x claw: +23 (19-20 x2) 2d6 + 20
I am taking off 2 of the claws and +2 from heroism for this as well as only counting a +2 amulet as you built a little too much of a glass cannon. This is only coming to a +19 to hit and doing +19 damage. This gives you 183.04. If you take away the Ioun stone it drops to 165.
It doesn't really seem a fair criticism that something is "too much of a glass cannon" in a DPR contest. If it takes Improved Natural Armor for that spare feat it has 22 AC and ~ 76 HP on average. Everything I included seems to be legitimate according to the rules as written. If I've missed something that contradicts this feel free to point it out.
As stated earlier, it really wasnt meant to be a DPR contest, but more to see what damage the classes do when built in a playable fashion that you would be really playing in a game.
As I wrote it, given that it'd hit on everything but a 1 using power attack, average damage for 1 claw attack is 28.35, making this Eidolon have:
283.5 DPR.
Not exactly. The average damage of 2d6+20 is 27, so with a 95% chance to hit means not counting crits the damage would be 25.65. Since 10% of the hits would be crits doing double damage, they are increasing the damage by 10%, giving us 28.215
Even in the weakest version you presented it still has it beating anything else so far by a fair margin. And again, this still isn't including the summoner himself.
The thing is that no GM in their right mind would allow an Eidleon close to that. That is way too many arms, you took more arms than a marilith.
I'm curious if giving up the claws, taking the enhanced ability evolution and extra limbs and picking a weapon feat would yield higher damage.
with 8 arms using +1 bastard swords you would be looking at 164.1 DPR. the -4 tohit from multiweapon fighting and the fact that most are only getting half str hurts a lot.
lowering str by one, taking dex to 15, adding two weapon fighting and double slice though jumps the damage up to 187.2.
Weapons just arent really feasible due to the cost involved of trying to keep up multiple magic weapons.
The AC is 21. That's unacceptable unless you're one-rounding things, and that build isn't, even if it were legal. Any character who can't survive a single full attack from a benchmark brute has no business going into melee at all.
I am only counting its AC to be 20, and the DPR from a firegiant to a 20 AC is only 67.32, not sure where you were getting 83.49 to a 21 AC. But regardless, that 67.32 means on average that character would be dead in one round of attacks.
Wondered what would happen if you mix fighter and rogue. Meet Jack B. Nimble's arch-enemy, Jack B. Quick.
Jack B. Quick, human rogue 4/Fighter 6
Ability Scores:
STR: 16 (+3) (13 base, +1 level, +2 Ioun stone)
DEX: 22 (+6) (15 base, +1 level, +2 racial, +4 belt)
CON: 14 (+2)
INT: 10 (0)
WIS: 12 (+1)
CHA: 8 (-1)
HP:91.5 (10+5d10+4d8+20 con+10 toughness+6 favored class)
Saving Throws
Fort: +10 Ref: +14 Will: +9
AC: 24 - Touch 18, Flatfooted 19 (+6 +1 mithral shirt, +1 Dodge, +6 dex, +1 Amulet of Natural Armor, +1 Ring of Protection)
Attacks: (9 BAB, +6 Dex, +2 Enhance, +1 Weapon Focus, +1 Weapon Training, -2 TWF)
+17/+17/+12/+12
Damage 11.5 (1d6, +3 str, +2 Enhance, +1 Weapon Training, +2 Specialization)
Sneak attack 18.5
Special Attacks:
Sneak attack +2d6
Class Abilities:
Evasion
Uncanny Dodge
Slow Reactions
Rogue Finesse
Bravery +1
Armor training 1
Weapon Training (light blades) +1
BAB: +9
Feats:
Weapon Finesse (bonus)
Weapon Focus (shortsword) (Fighter bonus)
Toughness (Fighter bonus)
Weapon Specialization (Fighter bonus)
Improved Critical (Fighter bonus)
Improved Initiative
Dodge
Two-Weapon Fighting
Double Slice
Iron Will
Improved Two-Weapon Fighting
Skills:
Can max Perception, Disable Device, Stealth, UMD, Bluff and 4 ranks of other stuff
Gear:
Two +2 shortsword
+1 mithral shirt
Belt of dex +4
Ioun stone +2 str
Amulet of Natural Armor +1
Cloak of Resistance +1
Ring of Protection +1
Handy Haversack
Other stuff
Damage:
Non-sneak attack (2 x .7 x 11.5) + (2 x .2 x .7 x 11.5) + (2 x .45 x 11.5) + (2x .2 x .45 x 11.5)
DPR = 32.51
Sneak attack non-flank (2 x .7 x 18.5) + (2 x .2 x .7 x 11.5) + (2 x .45 x 18.5) + (2x.2 x.45x11.5)
DPR = 49.69
With Flank (2x.8x18.5) + (2x.2x.7x11.5) + (2x.55x18.5)+(2x.2x.55x11.5)
DPR = 55.70
So basically, the Sneak attack/flank DPR are pretty much the same. Non-sneak attack damage goes up significantly (still pretty low though).
This would allow the Rogue to be more viable when sneak attack is not an option while maintaining the most important skill set.
Not the perfect solution - but improves HP and Saves too. AC went down a couple (if you give back the +2 armor and TWF it goes back to 26, but something else has to go) - Maybe I'll look at a Ranger/Rogue and Pally/Rogue and see how they compare.
I am only counting its AC to be 20, and the DPR from a firegiant to a 20 AC is only 67.32, not sure where you were getting 83.49 to a 21 AC. But regardless, that 67.32 means on average that character would be dead in one round of attacks.10 +2 dex +6 breasplate +3 magic on breastplate +1 ring +1 amulet -2 stance = 21
Fire giants have and use Power Attack.
I missed the RoP, and was not aware the beastiary didnt include power attack in the stat block. That is just annoying for having to calculate out the stats of everything with power attack yourself :P
