The DPR Olympics - or "I'm not the mechanic here, Ironsides! I mostly just hurt people!"


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RPG Superstar 2010 Top 32

Mok wrote:

Is there a post or other page that gives the results of this thread?

So what is "a lot of damage" for a given class?

One of these days I'll set up a Google doc or something with examples from the thread. For now, I'm super lazy.


Treantmonk wrote:

Wondered what would happen if you mix fighter and rogue. Meet Jack B. Nimble's arch-enemy, Jack B. Quick.

** spoiler omitted **

Damage:

Non-sneak attack (2 x .7 x 11.5) + (2 x .2 x .7 x 11.5) + (2 x .45 x 11.5) + (2x .2 x .45 x 11.5)
DPR = 32.51

Sneak attack non-flank (2 x .7 x 18.5) + (2 x .2 x .7 x 11.5) + (2 x .45 x 18.5) + (2x.2 x.45x11.5)
DPR = 49.69

With Flank (2x.8x18.5) + (2x.2x.7x11.5) + (2x.55x18.5)+(2x.2x.55x11.5)
DPR = 55.70

So basically, the Sneak attack/flank DPR are pretty much the same. Non-sneak attack damage goes up...

2 things. first, this build is prolly better as a two hander since you can free up 2-3 feats for basically same damage (more if you can afford +3 weapon). second, how is the will save so high? i'm just not seeing it.

EDIT: typos


Introducing Mr Rouge, who says to Jack B. Nimble "You're acting like a 1st level thief, I'm acting like a professional" the UMD using Rogue.

Mr Rouge:

Mr Rouge, halfling rogue 10
Ability Scores:
STR: 6 (-2) (8 base, -2 racial)
DEX: 22 (+6) (15 base, +1 level, +2 racial, +4 belt)
CON: 14 (+2) (13 base, +1 level)
INT: 12 (+1)
WIS: 14 (+2)
CHA: 12 (+1) (10 base, +2 racial)

HP: 78 HP (10d8+30)

Saving Throws
Fort: +11 (3/2/3/1/2) Ref: +20 (7/6/3/1/2/1) Will: +11 (3/2/3/1/2)

AC: 28 - Touch 19, Flatfooted 28 (+6 +2 mithral shirt, +6 dex, +3 Amulet of Natural Armor, +1 Ring of Protection, +1 size, +1 haste)

Attack: melee touch +16 (+7/6/1/2) by spell
Attack routine (hasted w/ flanking): +17/+17/+17/+12/+12 (Flame blade d8+4 & chill touch d6 +1str/fort neg)

Special Attacks:
Sneak attack +5d6

Class Abilities:
Evasion
Improved Uncanny Dodge
Finesse Rogue/ Combat trick/ Feat
Minor Magic (Disrupt Undead)
Major Magic (Chill Touch)

BAB: +7 CMB: +4 CMD: 20

Feats:
Weapon Finesse (bonus)
Weapon Proficiency: Scimitar
Two-Weapon Fighting (bonus)
Improved Two-Weapon Fighting (bonus)
Skill Focus: UMD
Master Craftsman
Craft Wondrous Items
Quicken Spell like ability (Chill Touch)

Skills:
UMD +20 (10ranks,+1/6 trained)
Craft skills (tailor, jeweler) +14 (10 ranks, +1 trained)
Other skills (Perception, Stealth, Escape Artist, Acrobatics, Disable Device)

Gear:
Staff of Chill Touch(x1) (3200gp)
Staff of CLW(x2) & Flame Blade(x1) (7600gp)
Staff of CLW(x2) & Heroism(x1) (7600gp)
+2 mithral shirt (4,100gp)
Belt of whatever PF calls the dex belt +4 (8,000gp crafted)
Boots of Speed (6,000gp crafted)
Amulet of Natural Armor +3 (9,000gp crafted)
Cloak of Resistance +3 (4,500gp crafted)
Ring of Protection +1 (2,000gp)
Handy Haversack (1,000gp crafted)
9,000gp cash (spent either on crafted goods, or to up staff to empowered, etc)

Attack expected damage (vs touch AC 12):
Flame Blade averages 8.5/hit, so 8.5*3*.95=24.225
Flame Blade crit extra is 8.5/crit so 8.5*3*.15*.95=3.63375
Chill Touch averages 3.5/hit, so 3.5*2*.95=6.65
Chill Touch crit extra is 3.5/crit so 3.5*2+.05*.95=.3325
Sneak attack averages 17.5/hit so 17.5*5*.95=83.125

Expected damage from a full attack is then 34.84175 w/out sneak and 117.96625 with sneak, as well as chances for STR loss.

With flanking the expected damage stays the same vs AC 14, and missing on 2s with the iterative attacks lowers us by a little more than 2 points, so the touch AC can really reach 15-19 without much loss. We could include a darkwood buckler for added AC when not full attacking here as the -1 to hit on the offhand isn’t likely to be felt.

Further if one takes the reading that an empowered or maximized spell extends to sneak dice, then this figure skyrockets by 50% more (empowered) or higher (maximized).

Mind you this does require the standard action to bring up the flame blade (the chill touch could be precast from staff, or if needed quickened cast via SLA) but as its highly unlikely for a rogue to find flanking & full attacks in round 1 it didn't seem unreasonable.

-James

RPG Superstar 2010 Top 32

james maissen wrote:
Introducing Mr Rouge, who says to Jack B. Nimble "You're acting like a 1st level thief, I'm acting like a professional" the UMD using Rogue.

Your character uses consumables, in particular custom consumables he cannot make himself.

CWI is not a shortcut to double wealth.

"Quicken Spell-like Ability (Chill Touch)" is illegal, because you need to cast the SLA at 10th level before you can take it, and you get your last feat at level 9.

This character doesn't meet the rules of the challenge, the rules of the game, and is so hyperspecific as to be entirely impractical. Which is a shame, because I was kind of hoping to see the PF replacement for the flask rogue before I opened the spoiler.


angryscrub wrote:

2 things. first, this build is prolly better as a two hander since you can free up 2-3 feats for basically same damage (more if you can afford +3 weapon). second, how is the will save so high? i'm just not seeing it.

EDIT: typos

1) probably correct. Just was curious myself how damage would be affected with multiclassing.

2) Lets see. +1 (rogue 4), +2 (fighter 6), +1 (Wis 12), +2 Iron will, +1 Cloak of resistance...

Yeah, that's only +7. I think it was +9 at one point (Cloak had originally been +2 and I was experimenting with a Halfling which would have given +1 for luck) and I didn't adjust it back.


About the druid:

I think that you should note that the druid cannot use flaming amulet of might fists while wildshape , as flaming needs a commad word to be activated and it clearly does not work while shifted (which is also why an animal companion cannot use flaming amulet)

Thx


A Man In Black wrote:

...snip...

"Quicken Spell-like Ability (Chill Touch)" is illegal, because you need to cast the SLA at 10th level before you can take it, and you get your last feat at level 9.

...snip...

actually, he had the rogue take the feat at level 10 as his rogue talent. totally legal.

Treantmonk wrote:

1) probably correct. Just was curious myself how damage would be affected with multiclassing.

2) Lets see. +1 (rogue 4), +2 (fighter 6), +1 (Wis 12), +2 Iron will, +1 Cloak of resistance...

Yeah, that's only +7. I think it was +9 at one point (Cloak had originally been +2 and I was experimenting with a Halfling which would have given +1 for luck) and I didn't adjust it back.

i also ran the numbers with a rogue 6, fighter 4 two hander. numbers are comparable and more skills, which i like.


Im still working the idea of this but what about

An elf 6th Fighter 1st Wizard 3rd Arcane Archer

You still get the three feats you need to make the archer deal out the damage

You can create An Arcane Bond Magic Bow so its cheaper

you can Be a specialist transmuter and get a free point of dex

You lose the Critical Mastery Feat for Arcane Strike but it add a plus 1 damage everytime

At 3rd level Arcane Archer you get Elemental Arrows for free giving you an addition D6

Is this just me or could this character throw out some damage as an Archer?


angryscrub wrote:

i also ran the numbers with a rogue 6, fighter 4 two hander. numbers are comparable and more skills, which i like.

I guess my main concern with a two handed build would be that I would imagine you would sacrifice either AC (If you concentrate on Str over Dex) or Stealth and maneuverability (If you give heavy armor).

How did AC end up on your build? Did you use heavy armor?


A Man In Black wrote:
james maissen wrote:
Introducing Mr Rouge, who says to Jack B. Nimble "You're acting like a 1st level thief, I'm acting like a professional" the UMD using Rogue.

Your character uses consumables, in particular custom consumables he cannot make himself.

CWI is not a shortcut to double wealth.

"Quicken Spell-like Ability (Chill Touch)" is illegal, because you need to cast the SLA at 10th level before you can take it, and you get your last feat at level 9.

This character doesn't meet the rules of the challenge, the rules of the game, and is so hyperspecific as to be entirely impractical. Which is a shame, because I was kind of hoping to see the PF replacement for the flask rogue before I opened the spoiler.

Staffs are a bit different in Pathfinder. While they have 10 charges they can be recharged, and the staves listed can be recharged very easily. A cleric can recharge 2 of them (the flame blade & heroism) by 2nd level slots and a 1st level wizard can recharge the chill touch staff (if that's a problem I could easily add another 1st level spell to it so that the same cleric could recharge it as well). Unless the rogue is traveling in a party without someone who can cast cure light wounds and 2nd level spells (heck even a ranger at this level qualifies) it should not be a problem.

So I don't really see this as a problem.

As to CWI, shrug.. I was sitting with a few empty feats and a few extra skills and it seemed reasonable to do. Do we have outlined somewhere what ratio I should be using for self-crafted items? In 3.5 I think it was 70% rather than 50% cost, but I was in a rush and thus just left it as 50% with plenty of cash left over.

And someone else mentioned that I had the rogue take quicken spell like ability (chill touch) as the 10th level rogue feat. I admit it's a bit silly as waiting until 11th is more reasonable if you're planning on advancing (taking opportunist instead, which should also factor into DPR but I figured you might have more issues with the character if it couldn't quicken such an attack).

So have I addressed your problems with the character, or do you still have more?

-James


Treantmonk wrote:
angryscrub wrote:

i also ran the numbers with a rogue 6, fighter 4 two hander. numbers are comparable and more skills, which i like.

I guess my main concern with a two handed build would be that I would imagine you would sacrifice either AC (If you concentrate on Str over Dex) or Stealth and maneuverability (If you give heavy armor).

How did AC end up on your build? Did you use heavy armor?

Jack B. Stick, human rogue 6/Fighter 4:

Ability Scores:

STR: 22 (+6) (15 base, +1 level, +2 racial, +4 belt)
DEX: 16 (+3) (13 base, +1 level, +2 Ioun stone)
CON: 14 (+2)
INT: 10 (0)
WIS: 12 (+1)
CHA: 8 (-1)

HP:89.5 (10+3d10+6d8+20 con+10 toughness+6 favored class)

Saving Throws
Fort: +8 Ref: +9 Will: +6

AC: 23 - Touch 15, Flatfooted 18 (+7 +1 mithral breastplate, +1 Dodge, +3 dex, +1 Amulet of Natural Armor, +1 Ring of Protection)

Attacks: (8 BAB, +6 Str, +3 Enhance, +1 Weapon Focus, -3 PA)

+15/+10

Damage 28 (2d4, +9 str, +3 Enhance, +2 Specialization, +9 PA)

Sneak attack 38.5

Special Attacks:
Sneak attack +3d6

Class Abilities:
Evasion
Uncanny Dodge
Slow Reactions
rogue combat trick improved critical
rogue talent
Bravery +1
Armor training 1

BAB: +8

Feats:
(bonus)
Weapon Focus (falchion) (Fighter bonus)
Toughness (Fighter bonus)
Weapon Specialization (Fighter bonus)
improved critical (rogue talent)
Improved Initiative (human bonus)
Dodge
power attack
feat
Iron Will
feat

Skills:
Can max Perception, Disable Device, Stealth, UMD, Bluff and 4 ranks of other stuff
Gear:
+3 falchion
+1 mithral breastplate
Belt of str +4
Ioun stone +2 dex
Amulet of Natural Armor +1
Cloak of Resistance +1
Ring of Protection +1
Handy Haversack
Other stuff

AC 23, thanks to the ever popular mithral breastplate. yay for keeping evasion!

all with PA

nonsneak
v2.03 Full Attack Single Attack
DPR Average 34.58 21.84
Attack +1 3.64 1.82
Damage +1 1.24 0.78
Extra Attack: 21.84

sneak
v2.03 Full Attack Single Attack
DPR Average 44.56 28.14
Attack +1 4.69 2.35
Damage +1 1.24 0.78
Extra Attack: 28.14

flank sneak
v2.03 Full Attack Single Attack
DPR Average 53.94 32.83
Attack +1 4.69 2.35
Damage +1 1.50 0.91
Extra Attack: 32.83


Yep - I like the two handed Rogue/fighter better. I'm learning quite a bit from this thread...


Treantmonk wrote:
Yep - I like the two handed Rogue/fighter better. I'm learning quite a bit from this thread...

i'll prolly start a new thread for it, but i'm working a comparison between the fighter and rogue classes (still working on a monk guide too. heh.) i think pathfinder actually made them balanced to each other. more to come on that.


angryscrub wrote:
Treantmonk wrote:
Yep - I like the two handed Rogue/fighter better. I'm learning quite a bit from this thread...
i'll prolly start a new thread for it, but i'm working a comparison between the fighter and rogue classes (still working on a monk guide too. heh.) i think pathfinder actually made them balanced to each other. more to come on that.

Agreed - overall, Pathfinder does a good job of balancing the core "combat" classes against each other.

Perhaps a 4th thread with updated "expectations" is in order?

RPG Superstar 2010 Top 32

james maissen wrote:
Staffs are a bit different in Pathfinder. While they have 10 charges they can be recharged, and the staves listed can be recharged very easily. A cleric can recharge 2 of them (the flame blade & heroism) by 2nd level slots and a 1st level wizard can recharge the chill touch staff (if that's a problem I could easily add another 1st level spell to it so that the same cleric could recharge it as well). Unless the rogue is traveling in a party without someone who can cast cure light wounds and 2nd level spells (heck even a ranger at this level qualifies) it should not be a problem.

You have two staves and boots of speed.

The OP wrote:

To start, we'll need a standardized baseline for all the characters:

  • Standard wealth by level in magic items, but no magic items limited on a per-day or consumable basis.
  • And scamming the staff recharge by adding a spell you don't intend to use is :|

    Look, I'm not going to get into YOU'RE DOING IT WRONG now that the one RAW game-mechanical issue (QSLA) is resolved, but seriously, that requires a degree of party composition that GM cooperation that many games won't have. It's not in any sense baseline.


    This might be a good time to point out how class synergies such as the one you have just pointed out can open up some additional possibilities and provide a significant increase in power.


    A Man In Black wrote:


    You have two staves and boots of speed.

    The OP wrote:

    To start, we'll need a standardized baseline for all the characters:

  • Standard wealth by level in magic items, but no magic items limited on a per-day or consumable basis.
  • And scamming the staff recharge by adding a spell you don't intend to use is :|

    Look, I'm not going to get into YOU'RE DOING IT WRONG now that the one RAW game-mechanical issue (QSLA) is resolved, but seriously, that requires a degree of party composition that GM cooperation that many games won't have. It's not in any sense baseline.

    Hey, it's your thread. But to nitpick I had 3 staves on the character, and the cure light wounds added on 2 of them is to make recharging easier (almost every party at 10th level will have someone that can cast clw and 2nd level spells). I don't see it as scamming but rather simply utilizing the system in place in a straightforward way. The extra cost is worth the ease in recharge.. it's a system trade-off which is the basis for optimization.

    And I don't see it as needing much party composition (a 3rd level caster of clw). And finally, how many 10th level melee types don't have boots of speed? It's a way to get that haste attack in when the party arcanist is too busy to cast haste.

    But to each their own. I do feel that you are skewing things here. Its obvious that such things as GMW, Magic Vestments, Heroism and the like will come into play in most parties. The level of party composition will factor in here, but in the case of what I presented, if missing, would mandate trips to casters for healing anyway (and thus the recharging) so I don't see it as a factor, beyond artificial restraints.

    Anyway, you have a rogue that can do comparable damage there if you want him.

    -James

    RPG Superstar 2010 Top 32

    james maissen wrote:
    But to each their own. I do feel that you are skewing things here. Its obvious that such things as GMW, Magic Vestments, Heroism and the like will come into play in most parties. The level of party composition will factor in here, but in the case of what I presented, if missing, would mandate trips to casters for healing anyway (and thus the recharging) so I don't see it as a factor, beyond artificial restraints.

    The whole point is that this is the baseline before such buffs, because while every party will have some of these few parties will have all of these.


    A Man In Black wrote:


    The whole point is that this is the baseline before such buffs, because while every party will have some of these few parties will have all of these.

    Well if you are saying that a party is not going to have daily access to cure light wounds that is a bit too far, don't you think?

    I mean that's why I added it to the staves in question, to make it more than reasonable for any party to be able to recharge it... and failing that for the rogue to reasonably get it recharged in a town while the party was paying for healing.

    And it is skewed as you've seen by those who can cast some of those spells themselves and how much it alters things.

    It's one thing to assume that a haste spell is not being cast upon you in round 1. There might not be an arcane caster in the group, or (more likely) they have better control spells to be casting at that point.

    -James


    james maissen wrote:
    A Man In Black wrote:


    The whole point is that this is the baseline before such buffs, because while every party will have some of these few parties will have all of these.
    Well if you are saying that a party is not going to have daily access to cure light wounds that is a bit too far, don't you think?

    Cure light wounds being on the staff is pointless, you have to have the highest level spell in the staff to use it. To recharge your heroism staff you need to burn a heroism spell for the day. Ultimately it's a wash. You can't use a staff to trade 1st level spells for 3rd level spells.

    RPG Superstar 2010 Top 32

    james maissen wrote:
    Well if you are saying that a party is not going to have daily access to cure light wounds that is a bit too far, don't you think?

    No, I'm suggesting that a party may not have access to custom staffs, or may not be allowed to use a quirk of the recharging rules (which I haven't checked, FWIW).


    Dennis da Ogre wrote:
    james maissen wrote:
    A Man In Black wrote:


    The whole point is that this is the baseline before such buffs, because while every party will have some of these few parties will have all of these.
    Well if you are saying that a party is not going to have daily access to cure light wounds that is a bit too far, don't you think?
    Cure light wounds being on the staff is pointless, you have to have the highest level spell in the staff to use it. To recharge your heroism staff you need to burn a heroism spell for the day. Ultimately it's a wash. You can't use a staff to trade 1st level spells for 3rd level spells.

    I see now how you are explaining away the cure light wounds use by preparing it in a higher level slot... It seems to me a lot of GMs would frown on that.


    Dennis da Ogre wrote:


    Cure light wounds being on the staff is pointless, you have to have the highest level spell in the staff to use it. To recharge your heroism staff you need to burn a heroism spell for the day. Ultimately it's a wash. You can't use a staff to trade 1st level spells for 3rd level spells.

    I see now how you are explaining away the cure light wounds use by preparing it in a higher level slot... It seems to me a lot of GMs would frown on that.

    Umm, no. That's not quite how staves work. It's close, but off a bit. Here's the section on them:

    It says "Each morning, when a spellcaster prepares spells or regains spell slots, he can also imbue one staff with a portion of his power so long as one or more of the spells cast by the staff is on his spell list and he is capable of casting at least one of the spells. Imbuing a staff with this power restores one charge to the staff, but the caster must forgo one prepared spell or spell slot of a level equal to the highest-level spell cast by the staff."

    Thus a spellcaster with cure light wounds on his/her spell list that can cast 2nd level spells, could forgo preparing a 2nd level spell and recharge the staff. He/she doesn't need to have all of the spells in the staff, or in particular the highest level spell on his/her list. Just has to have one, and give up a slot equal to the highest level the staff can cast (it is not 'casting the spell on the list into the staff'). In the case of the flame blade staff, I added a cure light wounds spell (at 2 charges/use) to make the staff able to be recharged by more than just Druids. It's a trade-off in cash for access.

    So for example a Ranger 8, Paladin 8, Cleric 3, Oracle 4, Druid 3, or Bard 4 could all do the job. Perhaps there are others but that's what comes to mind immediately from base classes.

    Basically any party that can cast cure light wounds and 2nd level spells could recharge these two staves, which is far from unreasonable for a 10th level party. Otherwise they are going to be going back for healing anyway (and thus could pay for recharges along with the healing).

    As to 'non-standard' magic items, is a wand of (blank) spell a non-standard magic item? Staves are described, and examples given. But the method for pricing them is laid out and the mechanics done. It's not like trying to make a wondrous item that gives a continual mage armor, or the like.. but rather given prices like for wands.

    So I refute the claim that it's a non-standard magic item.

    As to a 'custom item':
    It's something that's reasonably craftable in all 3 cases. Commissioning such items should not be difficult, any more than commissioning any weapon enhancement unto a weapon. If I had the rogue with a +1 flaming, spell-storing weapon would you have the same objection? It's a custom weapon to which a party might not have access. Heck if the rogue were using an uncommon weapon that's something that reasonably *would* need to be commissioned.

    -James

    Sczarni

    As far as I can see this whole excersise hasnñt included participation from a character other than the one whose DPR is being measured. And plausible as it might be, having a caster to recharge said staff goes against it.
    Just my 2cp thou


    Frerezar wrote:

    As far as I can see this whole excersise hasnñt included participation from a character other than the one whose DPR is being measured. And plausible as it might be, having a caster to recharge said staff goes against it.

    Just my 2cp thou

    Well my point is that if the party doesn't have such a caster then they are going to need to be obtaining the services of one for healing anyway.

    This isn't about what classes can do as solo missions, otherwise the rogue wouldn't be getting flanking in the first place for his sneak attacks.

    There's a difference between that and assuming that you can have the party wizard cast haste round 1, the party cleric cast GMW on your weapon and the bard sing for you.

    If it's simply an abstract 'competition' that's one thing, but I had understood it was to give an idea on how much damage an optimized character of a given class could deal in a round.

    My build does such, and its requirements from his fellow party members are very minimal: a few 2nd level spells at the start of the day, healing after combat and someone to flank with him in combat. That seems very reasonable from a melee rogue in a 10th level party imho.

    -James

    Sczarni

    The clarifying that the DPR of said character is X (lower value) by himself, but Y (higher value) with help would be good.
    So someone doesn´t go around saying stuff like ¨Rogue hits better than fighter !!!¨


    Frerezar wrote:

    The clarifying that the DPR of said character is X (lower value) by himself, but Y (higher value) with help would be good.

    So someone doesn´t go around saying stuff like ¨Rogue hits better than fighter !!!¨

    Well to be fair, the rogue I built does do all of it himself. He does hit harder than the fighter in these threads when he's sneak attacking. But that's mainly because he's built to only miss on a 1 (via touch attacks).

    It's not in combat help that he is getting, it's just that he has a few items that need recharging from others after several combats (10 in fact), much the same way as he will need hps recharged from others. As most parties will not be able to go through 10 real combats without any healing.

    But I do think that for most parties spells like GMW will be often present, to the extent that most parties find magic weapons above +1 enhancement not practical (better to have a +1 holy weapon than a +3 sword, etc). That imho is a problem with magic weapon pricing, but what can you do.

    Its telling in this thread that the builds here have to pay for such items due to the restraints in place, and meanwhile don't pay for items such as boots of speed which would otherwise be omnipresent at this level of play.

    -James

    RPG Superstar 2010 Top 32

    james maissen wrote:
    Its telling in this thread that the builds here have to pay for such items due to the restraints in place, and meanwhile don't pay for items such as boots of speed which would otherwise be omnipresent at this level of play.

    It's not "telling" at all. Buffs are excluded because while every class will be buffed, not every party will have the same buffs. Limited-use items (especially boots of speed) are excluded because while everyone will have them, everyone will have different items based on party composition. (Boots of speed aren't too hot in a party with two members who can cast haste, for example.)

    Actual play will see higher DPR numbers, because of buffs, better stats than elite array, party synergy, etc.


    Terran Stonehew 10 human druid

    Spoiler:

    Ability Scores
    Str 16(+4 enhancement +8 size) 28
    Dex 12(-2 size) 10
    Con 14(+4 size) 18
    Int 10
    Wis 16(+2 enhancement) 18
    Cha 8

    HP
    10d8+60 (105HP)

    Saves:
    Fort +11 Ref +3 Wil +11

    AC: 29 (10 +7(+1 wild dragonhide breastplate) +3(+1 wild heavy shield) -1 Size + 10(6 wild shape + 4 enhancement from barkskin) natural armor)

    DR 5/-

    Attacks 2 slams +19 (2d6 +11 19-20/x2) or power attack 2 slams +17 (2d6 +15 19-20/x2)

    Special darkvision 60 feet, push, earthglide, large size, immune to sneak attack and critical hits

    Class Abilities
    Nature Bond, Nature Sense, woodland stride, wild empath, resist nature's lure, immune to all poisons, trackless step, wild shape 4/day

    BAB +7 CMB +17 BAB 20

    Feats
    Toughness, Combat casting, Power attack, Natural spell, Weapon focus:slam, improved critical:slam

    Skills
    Perception 10+3+4 = 17
    Spellcraft 10+3 = 13
    Knowledge(Nature) 10+3 = 13
    Knowledge(Geography) 10+3 = 13
    Handle Animal 10+3-1 = 12

    Gear
    Haversack
    +1 wild dragonhide breastplate
    +1 wild heavy wooden shield
    +4 belt of strength
    +2 headband of wisdom
    +1 amulet of mighty fists in case he gets dispelled

    Active spells
    Elemental body 4(wild shape)
    bark skin
    Greater magic fang +2 slam
    If switching to fire elemental body may use resist energy: cold against intelligent opponents

    Terran's attack sequence is as follows
    Attacks 2 slams +19 (2d6 +11 19-20/x2) or power attack 2 slams +17 (2d6 +15 19-20/x2)
    on a full attack without power attack against AC 24 he deals 32.4 damage on average
    With power attack he deals an average damage of 35.64

    A nice defensive perk is he can also make a free bull rush attempt with each slam to keep his opponent from being able to full attack him back. He can alternatively use flame blade to full attack on fire vuln or high AC opponents with low touch AC or switch to fire elemental body to deal fire damage against natural attackers and fire vulns.

    By enhancing his melee via elemental body, he is free to use his spells to help the party, battlefield control, dispel opponents, etc.
    His average damage displayed does not include a possible animal companion.

    In an extremely hard fight he can use the earthglide to spell up underground with full cover, go underground to spontaneously summon, or simply run away from most opponents. Those with burrow speeds or earthglide may have trouble catching him if he switches to an air elemental and flies away.


    Damage is lower than I would have expected, on the earth elemental druid, but decent AC, mix of offense and defense, and full spellcasting makes him playable in my book. Looks like 5 attack pounce forms win where druids are concerned.


    Sarandosil wrote:


    Attacks: Shuriken 11,11,11,6,6 (d2+10 damage)
    Assuming GMW from a party member: Shuriken 13,13,13,8,8 (d2+12 damage)

    Lone DPR: 18.98
    With Ki point: 24.035

    GMW DPR: 29.7
    With Ki point: 37.125

    Going through this again I've noticed I flubbed the math somehow on the GMW attacks. The correct DPR is 31.19 and 38.61 with a Ki point.

    That is unless I'm flubbing it again (why am I so horrible at arithmetic?), but I can't figure out how I got the previous number.

    Incidentally I noticed that a flaming/frost/etc weapon is better than a +1 to hit/damage when I accidentally kept the extra elemental damage in the average damage while calculating for crits. Huh.

    Anyway gonna start a homebrew DPR thread in a bit to go through all the proposed monk fixes people are proposing. All the wacky builds can go there.


    so i was getting my butt kicked at poker and decided to just come home early and attempt to slog through finishing my monk guide (still haven't read treantmonk's since i'm curious to see where we'll differ, and i don't want to be influenced too much by his ideas). anyway, while going through some numbers i noticed something that made me think we've neglected something in this thread.

    the focus has really been on DPR on a full attack, with not much attention payed to a single attack, except i think treantmonk mentioned it with regards to the ranger at one point. how often are we assuming melee types are getting off full attack actions? it seems reasonable to assume an archer is going to generally get full attacks off, but is that true of melee? move, attack, and then if you're lucky full attack the next round, rinse, repeat.

    the reason this came up is because i was working on a monk archer to see what the numbers looked like and it seems likely that realistically it would outdamage a melee monk due to getting full attacks much more often.

    i've built an elven archer monk that assuming 2 rounds of full attacks will outdamage even a strong melee monk that has to move one of those rounds. the finesse monk is expectedly bad, but i just wanted to quantify it for any doubters that might still be out there.

    i cleaned up melvin the human monk a bit, because staff is way better than nunchaku for single attacks. also posted a dex prioritized and a wis prioritized version since i was running those numbers anyway for my guide.

    it seems to me to make this thread truly useful, we need to give equal credence to standard attacks. thoughts?

    Melvyn the Elven Monk Archer, level 10:

    Ability Scores:
    STR: 12 (+1)
    DEX: 22 (+6) (15 base, +1 level, +2 racial, +4 belt)
    CON: 12 (+1) (14 base, -2 racial)
    INT: 12 (+0) (10 base, +2 racial)
    WIS: 16 (+3) (13 base, +1 level, +2 hat)
    CHA: 8 (-1)

    HP: 68 HP (10d8+20)

    Saving Throws
    Fort: +9 Ref: +14 Will: +11 (+13 against enchantments)

    AC: 28 - Touch 24, Flatfooted 21 (+2 monk, +6 dex, +3 wis, +1 Dodge, +1 Ring of Protection, +3 Bracers of Armor, +1 Amulet of Natural Armor)

    Attacks: Composite Long Bow +13/+8 1d8+1 (19-20/x2)

    Class Abilities:
    Ki pool (8 points, magic and lawful attacks)
    Stunning Fist (DC 18, 11 uses, option to fatigue/sicken)
    Improved Evasion
    Slow Fall (50')
    Other stuff

    BAB: +7 (+10 with FOB) CMB: +11 CMD: 29

    Feats:
    Dodge
    Deflect Arrows
    Mobility
    Improved Critical (long bow)
    Point Blank Shot
    Precise Shot
    Deadly Aim
    Rapid Shot
    Many Shot

    Skills:
    4 points/level

    Gear (WBL=62000gp):
    +3 longbow (18000gp)
    Belt of +4 dex (16000gp)
    Handy Haversack (2000gp)
    Hat of +2 wis (4000gp)
    Ring of protection +1 (2000gp)
    Bracers of armor +3 (9000gp)
    Amulet of natural armor +1 (2000gp)
    Lesser Bracers of Archery (5000gp)
    Cloak of Resistance +1 (1000gp)
    3000 GP in miscellaneous consumables, gear, non-portable goods, ammo, etc.

    +3 longbow with DA, bracers, rapid shot, manyshot

    v2.03 Full Attack Single Attack
    DPR Average 25.00 9.00
    Attack +1 2.88 0.75
    Damage +1 2.00 0.72
    Extra Attack: 7.50

    Melvin 1.1.3, human staff monk 10:

    Ability Scores:
    STR: 22 (+6) (15 base, +1 level, +2 racial, +4 belt)
    DEX: 12 (+1)
    CON: 14 (+2)
    INT: 10 (+0)
    WIS: 16 (+3) (13 base, +1 level, +2 hat)
    CHA: 8 (-1)

    HP: 88 HP (10d8+40)

    Saving Throws
    Fort: +10 Ref: +9 Will: +11 (+13 against enchantments)

    AC: 23 - Touch 19, Flatfooted 21 (+2 monk, +1 dex, +3 wis, +1 Dodge, +2 Ring of Protection, +3 Bracers of Armor, +1 Amulet of Natural Armor)

    Attacks: Staff +15/+15/+10/+10 d6+6 (19-20/x2) or Staff +13 d6+9 (19-20/x2)

    Class Abilities:
    Ki pool (8 points, magic and lawful attacks)
    Stunning Fist (DC 18, 11 uses, option to fatigue/sicken)
    Improved Evasion
    Slow Fall (50')
    Other stuff

    BAB: +7 (+10 with FOB) CMB: +16 CMD: 29

    Feats:
    Some Human bonus feat
    Dodge
    Deflect Arrows
    mobility
    Improved Critical (staff)
    Weapon Focus (staff)
    Toughness
    Power Attack
    Step Up
    Lunge

    Skills:
    5 points/level

    Gear (WBL=62000gp):
    +3 staff (18000gp)
    Belt of +4 str (16000gp)
    Handy Haversack (2000gp)
    Hat of +2 wis (4000gp)
    Ring of protection +2 (8000gp)
    Bracers of armor +3 (9000gp)
    Amulet of natural armor +1 (2000gp)
    Cloak of Resistance +1 (1000gp)
    2000 GP in miscellaneous consumables, gear, non-portable goods, ammo, etc

    i've adjusted the single attack numbers to reflect only having a +7 BAB on a single attack

    +3 staff FOB with PA

    v2.03 Full Attack Single Attack
    DPR Average 38.67 14.19
    Attack +1 4.07 1.18
    Damage +1 2.09 0.66
    Extra Attack: 12.21

    replace +3 staff with +2 amulet of mighty fists and switch melvin to unarmed focused feats

    v2.03 Full Attack Single Attack
    DPR Average 36.47 10.59
    Attack +1 4.29 0.96
    Damage +1 1.87 0.61
    Extra Attack: 11.80

    Melvin 1.1.3dex, human nunchaku monk 10:

    Ability Scores:
    STR: 12 (+1)
    DEX: 22 (+6) (15 base, +1 level, +2 racial, +4 belt)
    CON: 14 (+2)
    INT: 10 (+0)
    WIS: 16 (+3) (13 base, +1 level, +2 hat)
    CHA: 8 (-1)

    HP: 88 HP (10d8+40)

    Saving Throws
    Fort: +10 Ref: +14 Will: +11 (+13 against enchantments)

    AC: 28 - Touch 24, Flatfooted 21 (+2 monk, +6 dex, +3 wis, +1 Dodge, +2 Ring of Protection, +3 Bracers of Armor, +1 Amulet of Natural Armor)

    Attacks: nunchaku +15/+15/+12/+1 d6+1 (19-20/x2) or nunchaku +13 d6+1 (19-20/x2)

    Class Abilities:
    Ki pool (8 points, magic and lawful attacks)
    Stunning Fist (DC 18, 11 uses, option to fatigue/sicken)
    Improved Evasion
    Slow Fall (50')
    Other stuff

    BAB: +7 (+10 with FOB) CMB: +11 CMD: 29

    Feats:
    Weapon Finesse (Human bonus feat)
    Dodge
    Deflect Arrows
    mobility
    Improved Critical (nunchaku)
    Weapon Focus (nunchaku)
    Toughness
    Power Attack
    Step Up
    Lunge

    Skills:
    5 points/level

    Gear (WBL=62000gp):
    +3 nunchaku (18000gp)
    Belt of +4 dex (16000gp)
    Handy Haversack (2000gp)
    Hat of +2 wis (4000gp)
    Ring of protection +2 (8000gp)
    Bracers of armor +3 (9000gp)
    Amulet of natural armor +1 (2000gp)
    Cloak of Resistance +1 (1000gp)
    2000 GP in miscellaneous consumables, gear, non-portable goods, ammo, etc

    i've adjusted the single attack numbers to reflect only having a +7 BAB on a single attack

    +3 staff FOB with PA

    v2.03 Full Attack Single Attack
    DPR Average 28.22 7.59
    Attack +1 2.97 0.63
    Damage +1 2.09 0.66
    Extra Attack: 8.91

    replace +3 staff with +2 amulet of mighty fists and switch melvin to unarmed focused feats

    v2.03 Full Attack Single Attack
    DPR Average 27.12 7.56
    Attack +1 3.19 0.69
    Damage +1 1.87 0.61
    Extra Attack: 8.77

    Melvin 1.1.3wis, human staff monk 10:

    Ability Scores:
    STR: 16 (+3) (13 base, +1 level, +2 belt)
    DEX: 12 (+1)
    CON: 14 (+2)
    INT: 10 (+0)
    WIS: 22 (+6) (15 base, +1 level, +2 racial, +4 hat)
    CHA: 8 (-1)

    HP: 88 HP (10d8+40)

    Saving Throws
    Fort: +10 Ref: +9 Will: +14 (+16 against enchantments)

    AC: 26 - Touch 22, Flatfooted 24 (+2 monk, +1 dex, +6 wis, +1 Dodge, +2 Ring of Protection, +3 Bracers of Armor, +1 Amulet of Natural Armor)

    Attacks: staff +11/+11/+6/+6 d6+3 (19-20/x2) or staff +10 d6+4 (19-20/x2)

    Class Abilities:
    Ki pool (11 points, magic and lawful attacks)
    Stunning Fist (DC 21, 11 uses, option to fatigue/sicken)
    Improved Evasion
    Slow Fall (50')
    Other stuff

    BAB: +7 (+10 with FOB) CMB: +13 CMD: 29

    Feats:
    Some Human bonus feat
    Dodge
    Deflect Arrows
    mobility
    Improved Critical (staff)
    Weapon Focus (staff)
    Toughness
    Power Attack
    Step Up
    Lunge

    Skills:
    5 points/level

    Gear (WBL=62000gp):
    +3 staff (18000gp)
    Belt of +4 str (16000gp)
    Handy Haversack (2000gp)
    Hat of +2 wis (4000gp)
    Ring of protection +2 (8000gp)
    Bracers of armor +3 (9000gp)
    Amulet of natural armor +1 (2000gp)
    Cloak of Resistance +1 (1000gp)
    2000 GP in miscellaneous consumables, gear, non-portable goods, ammo, etc

    i've adjusted the single attack numbers to reflect only having a +7 BAB on a single attack

    +3 staff FOB with PA

    v2.03 Full Attack Single Attack
    DPR Average 22.17 8.17
    Attack +1 3.41 0.91
    Damage +1 1.43 0.50
    Extra Attack: 7.67

    replace +3 staff with +2 amulet of mighty fists and switch melvin to unarmed focused feats

    v2.03 Full Attack Single Attack
    DPR Average 19.97 6.38
    Attack +1 3.63 0.80
    Damage +1 1.21 0.44
    Extra Attack: 7.26

    RPG Superstar 2010 Top 32

    angryscrub wrote:
    it seems to me to make this thread truly useful, we need to give equal credence to standard attacks. thoughts?

    Not really. Lots of people have insisted that "such and such class does [lots of]/[pitiful] damage!" based on not doing full attack math, because, well, it's work. On the other hand, it's trivially easy to figure out single attack math.

    Plus, builds that do decent single-attack damage aren't getting left out. There's no need to create a grading scale for factors other than full attack DPR because, well, everyone knows (I hope) full attack DPR isn't even close to the only thing that matters. Anyone who makes impractical gimmick builds is either acknowledging them as such or getting criticized for it.


    A Man In Black wrote:

    ...snip...

    Plus, builds that do decent single-attack damage aren't getting left out. There's no need to create a grading scale for factors other than full attack DPR because, well, everyone knows (I hope) full attack DPR isn't even close to the only thing that matters. Anyone who makes impractical gimmick builds is either acknowledging them as such or getting criticized for it.

    well, i was thinking less about "gimmicks" and more about say the difference between tempest ted and falchion fred. full attack is comparable, and that's what's bolded in their respective entries, however single attack is considerably worse for tempest ted.

    RPG Superstar 2010 Top 32

    angryscrub wrote:
    well, i was thinking less about "gimmicks" and more about say the difference between tempest ted and falchion fred. full attack is comparable, and that's what's bolded in their respective entries, however single attack is considerably worse for tempest ted.

    It's what's bolded because it's what's being compared. It's pretty obvious that Tempest Ted has weaker single attacks.


    A Man In Black wrote:
    Before I do any math, I want to make clear up front that this is not intended as a tier list, a how-to-play guide, or a value judgement on the utility of each of these classes (as most of them do other things than damage). It's just to get a good baseline on how much damage a character of this level will typically do, so "a lot of damage" can be something other than a gut call.

    this post is basically what i'm thinking of i guess. how typical is full attack melee damage really? the TWF rogue looks decent the way the post is written up, but how often can he actually get a full attack action with sneak? especially since he has absolutely no way to stop an enemy from just stepping away?

    A Man In Black wrote:
    angryscrub wrote:
    well, i was thinking less about "gimmicks" and more about say the difference between tempest ted and falchion fred. full attack is comparable, and that's what's bolded in their respective entries, however single attack is considerably worse for tempest ted.
    It's what's bolded because it's what's being compared. It's pretty obvious that Tempest Ted has weaker single attacks.

    well, i just went back to double check those entries, and i'm not sure i agree that it's obvious, especially when i consider so many of the comments i see people making in these various threads.

    i understand that this thread is meant to be a reference, but i think that to be truly useful, standard attacks should be given equal weight with full attacks. i like to point people here to look at the math, so i just think it should be more obvious to them i guess.


    angryscrub wrote:
    A Man In Black wrote:
    Before I do any math, I want to make clear up front that this is not intended as a tier list, a how-to-play guide, or a value judgement on the utility of each of these classes (as most of them do other things than damage). It's just to get a good baseline on how much damage a character of this level will typically do, so "a lot of damage" can be something other than a gut call.
    this post is basically what i'm thinking of i guess. how typical is full attack melee damage really? the TWF rogue looks decent the way the post is written up, but how often can he actually get a full attack action with sneak? especially since he has absolutely no way to stop an enemy from just stepping away?

    It varies from group to group. That's why these numbers can't really be taken in isolation. The numbers are exactly what they claim to be, damage per round on a full round attack. It tells you which class would be most effective toe to toe with the enemy. How you get there or how effective the class is the rest of the time is another story.

    Quote:

    well, i just went back to double check those entries, and i'm not sure i agree that it's obvious, especially when i consider so many of the comments i see people making in these various threads.

    i understand that this thread is meant to be a reference, but i think that to be truly useful, standard attacks should be given equal weight with full attacks. i like to point people here to look at the math, so i just think it should be more obvious to them i guess.

    I think a lot of people will be confused about what the significance of this thread is. That isn't because the thread itself is confusing but because people think the effectiveness of a class can be boiled down to one stat.


    Dennis da Ogre wrote:


    I think a lot of people will be confused about what the significance of this thread is. That isn't because the thread itself is confusing but because people think the effectiveness of a class can be boiled down to one stat.

    AMiB stated the purposes of this thread very clearly in his first post. Anyone who just skims the first couple of posts and just scrolls through the rest of the thread looking for the biggest numbers needs to slow down and start over.


    Moro wrote:
    Dennis da Ogre wrote:


    I think a lot of people will be confused about what the significance of this thread is. That isn't because the thread itself is confusing but because people think the effectiveness of a class can be boiled down to one stat.
    AMiB stated the purposes of this thread very clearly in his first post. Anyone who just skims the first couple of posts and just scrolls through the rest of the thread looking for the biggest numbers needs to slow down and start over.

    well, i agree. however, based on experience, slowing down and starting over is exactly what people won't do. i've seen threads where people apparently can't even be bothered to finish reading the first post, much less 3 posts after that. i like threads like this because it gives something to point to that's hard to argue with, but it needs to be as clean as possible.

    i think what i'll just try to do some time when i'm trying to avoid getting any work done is collate all the builds so far and clean them up a bit to have accurate wealth values, and post them in a new thread all together, along with AMiB's initial posts describing the rules and such. maybe a google doc would be a better idea, actually.


    Moro wrote:
    Dennis da Ogre wrote:


    I think a lot of people will be confused about what the significance of this thread is. That isn't because the thread itself is confusing but because people think the effectiveness of a class can be boiled down to one stat.
    AMiB stated the purposes of this thread very clearly in his first post. Anyone who just skims the first couple of posts and just scrolls through the rest of the thread looking for the biggest numbers needs to slow down and start over.

    I agree. But people are in love with the idea of some sort of magic metric that measures class effectiveness.

    RPG Superstar 2010 Top 32

    Dennis da Ogre wrote:
    I agree. But people are in love with the idea of some sort of magic metric that measures class effectiveness.

    The magic metric is the class's names reversed, arranged by alphabetical order.

    cleric
    druid
    bard
    wizard
    rogue
    monk
    barbarian
    paladin
    ranger
    sorcerer
    fighter

    Well, it sort of works. PROOF THAT WARBLADES ARE OVERPOWERED


    A Man In Black wrote:
    Dennis da Ogre wrote:
    I agree. But people are in love with the idea of some sort of magic metric that measures class effectiveness.
    The magic metric is the class's names reversed, arranged by alphabetical order.

    You might be onto something here, this puts Ninja clearly at the top where they belong.


    Hmm...and the alchemist is in last place. Sounds reasonable (except for the ninja).


    Corey Cleaver the level 10 Cleric of Gorum:

    Level 10 Human Cleric
    BAB +7
    Strength domain(+10 strength for 10 rounds/day)
    Destruction domain(+5 morale bonus on damage rolls and all threats automatically confirm on anyone withing 30 yards for 10 rounds/day)

    Str 28 (16 base + strength domain + enlarge person)
    Dex 10
    Con 12
    Int 8
    Wis 18 (14 + 4 from item)
    Chr 14

    Feats
    Selective Channeling
    Weapon Focus(Greatsword)
    Power Attack
    Cleave
    Quicken Spell

    Weapon +1 flaming burst with greater magic weapon to make it a +2 flaming burst. This spell lasts for 10 hours.

    Enlarge person from strength domain lasts for 10 minutes, so you are allowed to have that up before the fight.

    Adding in a +3/+3 from quickened diving favor.

    -2/+6 from power attack.

    To hit 7(BAB) + 9(strength) + 3(divine favor) + 2(from weapon) -2(power attack) = +19

    Damage normal = 2d8(large greatsword) + 13 (strength) + 5(destruction aura) + 6(power attack) + 2(enhancement bonus) + 3 (divine favor) + 1d6(flaming) = 41.5 damage average

    Crit damage = 4d8 + 26(strength) + 10(destruction aura) + 12(power attack) + 4(enhancement bonus) + 6(divine favor) + 1d6(flaming) + 1d10(flaming burst) = 85 damage average

    So Full round for +19/+14 gives me an average DPR of 56.0 without accounting for crits.

    Crits are a straight up 10% chance to happen on any swing because destruction aura gives automatic confirmation of crits. So crits chance adds 4.35 DPR per attack on average.

    So with crits average DPR is 64.7. A +1 is worth 4.15 DPR. An extra attack is worth 37.6 DPR. For 10 rounds per day.

    On a class that can wear full plate, can heal, and has lots of defensive buffs available. Worse, any other melee classes get the benefit of my +5 damage aura.


    Charender wrote:

    ** spoiler omitted **

    So Full round for +19/+14 gives me an average DPR of 56.0 without accounting for crits.

    Crits are a straight up 10% chance to happen on any swing because destruction aura gives automatic confirmation of crits. So crits chance adds 4.35 DPR per attack on average.

    So with crits average DPR is 64.7. A +1 is worth 4.15 DPR. An extra attack is worth 37.6 DPR. For 10 rounds per day.

    On a class that can wear full plate, can heal, and has lots of defensive buffs available. Worse, any other melee classes get the benefit of my +5 damage aura.

    Three things:

    1.) From PRD: "Unless otherwise noted, using a domain power is a standard action." So, all supernatural abilities from the Strength and Destruction domain are standard actions.
    2.) Might of the Gods only applies to Str checks and Str-based skill checks anyway.
    3.) A cleric needs the Feat Heavy Armor Proficiency to wear full plate

    Btw.: I am still banging my head against a wall to come up with a feasible Eldritch Knight build. My conclusion so far that a straight up Wiz 5/Ftr 1/EK 4 has a humongous glass jaw unless he goes Sword&Shield.


    Tholas wrote:
    Charender wrote:

    ** spoiler omitted **

    So Full round for +19/+14 gives me an average DPR of 56.0 without accounting for crits.

    Crits are a straight up 10% chance to happen on any swing because destruction aura gives automatic confirmation of crits. So crits chance adds 4.35 DPR per attack on average.

    So with crits average DPR is 64.7. A +1 is worth 4.15 DPR. An extra attack is worth 37.6 DPR. For 10 rounds per day.

    On a class that can wear full plate, can heal, and has lots of defensive buffs available. Worse, any other melee classes get the benefit of my +5 damage aura.

    Three things:

    1.) From PRD: "Unless otherwise noted, using a domain power is a standard action." So, all supernatural abilities from the Strength and Destruction domain are standard actions.
    2.) Might of the Gods only applies to Str checks and Str-based skill checks anyway.
    3.) A cleric needs the Feat Heavy Armor Proficiency to wear full plate

    Btw.: I am still banging my head against a wall to come up with a feasible Eldritch Knight build. My conclusion so far that a straight up Wiz 5/Ftr 1/EK 4 has a humongous glass jaw unless he goes Sword&Shield.

    Sigh, I like most of the changes in PF, but I do get sick of stumbling over all of the minor changes like this.

    I also missed the -1 to hit from being large and the weapon damage from being large is 3d6 not 2d8.

    I also suspect that a +1 flaming keen greatsword would be more damage than flaming burst.

    RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32

    Too bad this is limited to level 10. I had the idea of a hasted Maralith Duskblade using Channel Spell to get off a dozen or so disintegrates....

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