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I think there was a slight oversight on the Alchemist Formulae available.
Under the class ability of Alchemy, it indicates that a starting alchemist has 'begins play with knowing four 0-level formulae and two 1st-level formulae of his choice'
However under Extracts per Day and Extracts Known there is no 0-level formulae. Nor are there any listed the Formulae list.
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Alchemists do not currently receive any. The bit in the text is an oversight. The should start play knowing 2 first level formulae and that is all.
Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo Publishing
Hmmm, can't say I like that...I realize this is supposed to be kind of a hybrid class, but they are focused more on "spells". That said, every other (I think...) spellcaster class gets 0-levels, and from the games I've been in so far, especially in longer combats, 0-levels are one of the few things keeping some spellcasters from simply sitting back and reading a book (in-character) halfway through combat.
Not sure what the list would look like, but I would think some sort of cantrip list would be nice to have.
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I think the "spells known" might not mesh very well... As I see it, the Alchemist should be able to learn more formulae from other Alchemists or books. A formula seems to denote a set of directions that, when followed, will produce a certain effect. Kind of like a cooking recipe. I see no in game reason for him to be tied to a "spells known" progression rather than a "spellbook" progression. He even "memorizes" spells much like a wizard( prepare your spells at the beginning of the day and you can leave "slots" empty to pick different spells later ).
I think the "spells known" might not mesh very well... As I see it, the Alchemist should be able to learn more formulae from other Alchemists or books. A formula seems to denote a set of directions that, when followed, will produce a certain effect. Kind of like a cooking recipe. I see no in game reason for him to be tied to a "spells known" progression rather than a "spellbook" progression. He even "memorizes" spells much like a wizard( prepare your spells at the beginning of the day and you can leave "slots" empty to pick different spells later ).
Mayhaps, we should have a "cookbook?" Hokey, yes. But consider this: Julia Child with bombs.
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I think the "spells known" might not mesh very well... As I see it, the Alchemist should be able to learn more formulae from other Alchemists or books. A formula seems to denote a set of directions that, when followed, will produce a certain effect. Kind of like a cooking recipe. I see no in game reason for him to be tied to a "spells known" progression rather than a "spellbook" progression. He even "memorizes" spells much like a wizard( prepare your spells at the beginning of the day and you can leave "slots" empty to pick different spells later ).Mayhaps, we should have a "cookbook?" Hokey, yes. But consider this: Julia Child with bombs.
Or a "Research Journal"
Agreed, Draeke.
Alchemists form the first link (in a typical fantasy world) between magic and "modern science." There should be a lesser dependence on magical effects (or even NO dependence!) and more of a formulaic approach. A "research journal" may work just like a "spellbook" for game mechanics, but it should not be the same thing. And yes, it should be a requirement, IMO.
BTW, the next link after alchemistry is steam. Then comes the harnessing of electricity, and then...Al Gore invents the Internet.
At will alchemists abilities just spells. How many of those vials is he going to have available to mix up? It crosses the line of belief. You can sweep it under the rug and say its just like spell components, but the fact is most spell components are very small, the alchemists materials just dont fit that in my view. So at will would be very very hard to swallow.
At will alchemists abilities just spells. How many of those vials is he going to have available to mix up? It crosses the line of belief. You can sweep it under the rug and say its just like spell components, but the fact is most spell components are very small, the alchemists materials just dont fit that in my view. So at will would be very very hard to swallow.
I agree that thematically this makes a lot more sense. I would take away all abilities to mix things on the fly. He should have to prepare his materials at the beginning (or end) of each day. The idea of a guy whipping out his Bunsen burner and pipettes when the goblin hordes are charging for him is a little hard to fathom. I also agree with the posts about a research journal. An alchemist wouldn't discard a recipe he would collect as many as he could. That being said I like the research fields I like how he can focus on an area of study, I think that works really well.
I agree that thematically this makes a lot more sense. I would take away all abilities to mix things on the fly. He should have to prepare his materials at the beginning (or end) of each day. The idea of a guy whipping out his Bunsen burner and pipettes when the goblin hordes are charging for him is a little hard to fathom. I also agree with the posts about a research journal. An alchemist wouldn't discard a recipe he would collect as many as he could. That being said I like the research fields I like how he can focus on an area of study, I think that works really well.
Technically, most of the alchemy they do in combat at low levels is just mixing together a quick explosive, and that isn't exactly that hard. Not easy, but not hard. Once you're a high enough level to make a tanglefoot bag just by tossing a few vials into a sack and shaking it for a few seconds, well, you're high level, you can get away with that sort of thing.
I agree though, if there was one class that could justify having a spellbook analogue, it's the Alchemist.
If you guys dont like the idea of them being called formulae, just think of them as some sort of specialized talents or knacks for doing certain things. So it isnt a matter of the fact he doesnt know how to do other stuff, its just these are the things he is good at and those are the ones used in combat that he makes on the spot.
I am guessing this is the same thing as the summoner, the fluff is just fluff made up on the spot to go with the playtest article. They are testing the system, not the fluff.
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okay, i have to partially agree here.
One - i think the idea of dropping "spells known" for a more "spellbook" idea dose fit the theme better for a alchemist. As is, we already have enough spontaneous casters and don't need anymore (bard, sorcerer, oracle, summoner, and inquisitor). Our preparers are (cleric, druid, paladin, ranger, witch, and wizard). Alchemist is sort of both and that's just weird. Plus, the idea of a research journal, or formula book is just awesome.
Two - i love the idea of being able to prepare at anytime. Now yes, your not going to prepare as the goblins run down the hill side (requires 1 minute to prepare 1 potion/spell)...so yeah. However, your in a dungeon/situation and realize that "said effect" would be perfect here. So, what does any good alchemist do? He whips out chalk/book/formula and prepares the proper concoction for said situation. DON'T DROP THIS ABILITY...IT IS TOO AWESOME AND THEIR IS NOTHING QUITE LIKE IT.
That being said. I can understand why the have the "spontaneous" preparing combined with formula known, but it just doesn't fit as thematically. Plus, an alchemist is like a wizard in concept that they would try to learn as many alchemical secrets as possible!
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i think the idea of dropping "spells known" for a more "spellbook" idea dose fit the theme better for a alchemist.
I have to concur. An alchemist (in my mind, anyway) should be able to learn as many formulae as he can buy, beg, borrow, or steal from others of his ilk, or that he can research on his own. Tying the alchemist into a pseudo-sorcerer progression of spells known really un-sells the class for me.
What I would like *best* to see in this class is a hybrid spellbook/known/prepared method. That is, an alchemist has a "recipe journal" that all of his known formulae are in; without it, he can't do jack. Each day, he has a certain number of formulae which he can use. He can use his "formula slots" on any formula in his book. Does that combine the best parts of prepared and spontaneous casters? Sort of, but the alchemist needs *something* to make him competitive with other primary casters, which at the moment, he is not.
If the alchemist has limited spell progression and limited slots, then his flexibility should become his selling point. No, you don't get as many slots as a sorcerer, but you have a lot more selection. No, you don't have as fast a progression as the wizard, but you can use your vast selection of "spells" any time you want, any way you want.
Just my two cents on this one. Still, if the alchemist progression issue isn't fixed in some fashion, this will wind up being the poorest of the new classes.
Jeremy Puckett
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I do agree that alchemists should follow the wizard's spellbook method for learning spells. This is, like a wizard, a person who is out gathering knowledge that is studied day after day and late into the night, experimenting and tinkering to get things just right.
It just makes sense that the crazy inventor would be able to...well...invent things that others could research and learn.
I disagree that they should be able to keep their mid-day preperations. Although I can't see them busting out the Bunsen Burner with orcs breathing down their necks, I can see it being abused to route many situations set up by the DM.
There are so many situational Formulae that if you were allowed access to as many as you could find/buy, your character would quickly turn into an un-outsmart-able MacGuyver type who escapes the most dire situations with just a couple moments mixing the blue and green goo together. As much as I like MacGuyver and think it'd be a cool kind of character, it just seems too good to me.
The thing that lets a wizard having access to as many spells as he does work, is that he has the choose. If he anticipates the wrong thing and prepares a situational spell that goes to waste? Tough. If he is really in a pickle (and forgoes his familiar) he can get out of it once a day with just the right spell, but after that, that's it.
I'd say if the mid-day brewing were to be kept, increase the time needed to an hour (or maybe 15-30 minutes per spell level?) for him to unpack his alchemy kit and get things just right.
The Alchemist of old, used formulae written down in books, hence the survival of supposed Alchemical rituals. Unfortunately for the game, most of these formulae were long and complicated, not a trait for use in adventuring. The idea of an on the fly caster is taken by the sorcerer, the Alchemist needs its own niche. I'm not certain what that niche is though, it is almost as if this class should be an NPC, the person making potions in the town. Otherwise it seems to a combination of a Mad scientist/Mad bomber/Jekyl and Hyde. The effects of the class can be duplicated by playing a wizard specializing in transmutative spells for the enhancements.
Honestly, I'd love the alchemist...
...if he didn't use spells at all (except for formulae). No magic aura, nothing magical. It would make sense for an alchemist to name his formulae after spells (he took the inspiration from them), but no magical requirements at all.
Instead of making his ingredients inconsequential, make them cheap (at lower levels). I'm ok with a class needing to buy 'ammunition' for their abilities, especially if it gives them the ability to work in antimagic fields.
Make a bomb or infusion take X minutes per level to prepare with N cost (or X*10 time per level with N/10 cost, his choice). Get completely rid of the magic part. Let him make as many things as he can afford/free the time up for, and let him hand them out. Make the gold/time the issue, not the spells per day (that mechanic doesn't fit right for an alchemist). Limit him to 8 hours per day like any other crafter.
Sorry, venting my spleen here a little, I was excited for a mad inventor and got a spellcaster with a wierd mechanic instead. :(
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I do agree that alchemists should follow the wizard's spellbook method for learning spells. This is, like a wizard, a person who is out gathering knowledge that is studied day after day and late into the night, experimenting and tinkering to get things just right.
It just makes sense that the crazy inventor would be able to...well...invent things that others could research and learn.
So.. play a gnome? :D
Honestly, I'd love the alchemist...
...if he didn't use spells at all (except for formulae). No magic aura, nothing magical. It would make sense for an alchemist to name his formulae after spells (he took the inspiration from them), but no magical requirements at all.
Instead of making his ingredients inconsequential, make them cheap (at lower levels). I'm ok with a class needing to buy 'ammunition' for their abilities, especially if it gives them the ability to work in antimagic fields.
Make a bomb or infusion take X minutes per level to prepare with N cost (or X*10 time per level with N/10 cost, his choice). Get completely rid of the magic part. Let him make as many things as he can afford/free the time up for, and let him hand them out. Make the gold/time the issue, not the spells per day (that mechanic doesn't fit right for an alchemist). Limit him to 8 hours per day like any other crafter.
Sorry, venting my spleen here a little, I was excited for a mad inventor and got a spellcaster with a wierd mechanic instead. :(
The problem I would have with that is that it would almost downgrade the alchemist to an NPC class. Why would you want to bring the alchemist with you when you could safely leave him in town crafting stuff and bring another wizard/cleric/fighter with you instead to use the gear he's crafting?
The problem I would have with that is that it would almost downgrade the alchemist to an NPC class. Why would you want to bring the alchemist with you when you could safely leave him in town crafting stuff and bring another wizard/cleric/fighter with you instead to use the gear he's crafting?
Because, nothing is stopping him from whipping up stuff in the field with an alchemy kit. You can spend tons of money making everything ahead of time, or you can spend a lot less on the materials and drag the guy with you.
"Hey, Fobbrit, this door is locked on the other side with a bar and we can't get through it. Can you do something about it."
Fobbrit's eyes light up as he jerks his backpack alchemy kit off. "Yeppers! Gimme a minute. Hmmm, sulfur, saltpeter, charcoal... No, not energetic enough..." He begins to mutter, and then cackle, to himself as he pulls out small vials of liquid and mixes them in a larger glass vial that he sets on a heat-stone to boil. He doesn't notice as his friends all back nervously down the hallway and around the corner.
"Hey Fobbrit, we'll be down here when you're done..." The half-elf rogue calls, wincing as she see's a puff of smoke go up. Then she turns and runs, motioning frantically at her friends to speed up!
Because, nothing is stopping him from whipping up stuff in the field with an alchemy kit. You can spend tons of money making everything ahead of time, or you can spend a lot less on the materials and drag the guy with you.
The problem I would have with that is that it would almost downgrade the alchemist to an NPC class. Why would you want to bring the alchemist with you when you could safely leave him in town crafting stuff and bring another wizard/cleric/fighter with you instead to use the gear he's crafting?
Maybe I'm not understanding this bit:
"Make a bomb or infusion take X minutes per level to prepare with N cost (or X*10 time per level with N/10 cost, his choice). Get completely rid of the magic part. Let him make as many things as he can afford/free the time up for, and let him hand them out. Make the gold/time the issue, not the spells per day (that mechanic doesn't fit right for an alchemist). Limit him to 8 hours per day like any other crafter."
How does that make things cheaper if he's physically with a group, and not just preparing things an hour beforehand? In fact, it looks like it would be cheaper if he made stuff slowly beforehand than quickly in the field.
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Because, nothing is stopping him from whipping up stuff in the field with an alchemy kit. You can spend tons of money making everything ahead of time, or you can spend a lot less on the materials and drag the guy with you.
The problem I would have with that is that it would almost downgrade the alchemist to an NPC class. Why would you want to bring the alchemist with you when you could safely leave him in town crafting stuff and bring another wizard/cleric/fighter with you instead to use the gear he's crafting?Maybe I'm not understanding this bit:
"Make a bomb or infusion take X minutes per level to prepare with N cost (or X*10 time per level with N/10 cost, his choice). Get completely rid of the magic part. Let him make as many things as he can afford/free the time up for, and let him hand them out. Make the gold/time the issue, not the spells per day (that mechanic doesn't fit right for an alchemist). Limit him to 8 hours per day like any other crafter."
How does that make things cheaper if he's physically with a group, and not just preparing things an hour beforehand? In fact, it looks like it would be cheaper if he made stuff slowly beforehand than quickly in the field.
how about if he could prepair the higher end stuff (powerful explosives, potions, ect) before hand, and quickly and cheaply (spell component cheap) for quick small things on the field?
Maybe I'm not understanding this bit:"Make a bomb or infusion take X minutes per level to prepare with N cost (or X*10 time per level with N/10 cost, his choice). Get completely rid of the magic part. Let him make as many things as he can afford/free the time up for, and let him hand them out. Make the gold/time the issue, not the spells per day (that mechanic doesn't fit right for an alchemist). Limit him to 8 hours per day like any other crafter."
How does that make things cheaper if he's physically with a group, and not just preparing things an hour beforehand? In fact, it looks like it would be cheaper if he made stuff slowly beforehand than quickly in the field.
Sorry, let me give an example :
To make a bomb at level 8 (4d6+<blah> damage) takes 8 minutes and 80gp worth of ingredients. This is using the default formula which is maximized for efficiency of ingredients. Alternately, he could spend 800gp and make it 8 rounds (using more expensive ingredients on the fly so to speak) or he could make it in 80 minutes using 8gp worth of ingredients (boiling down cheaper ingredients and combining them in a time consuming but much cheaper manner).
It gives him lots of flexibility, but still costs time and money, so there is a limit on what he can produce (lots of time vs little money, average time vs average money, and minimal time vs expensive ingredients). Get completely rid of the magic, limit him by what he can buy/time he can spend. Require an alchemy roll to make each item (just like crafting armor). Other games have no issue limiting people by money/skill/time without using magic. D&D has a bad habit of having a hammer (vancian magic) and seeing every problem as a nail instead of seeing if the tool is right for the job.
how about if he could prepair the higher end stuff (powerful explosives, potions, ect) before hand, and quickly and cheaply (spell component cheap) for quick small things on the field?
Pretty much what I was going for. Rather than make it so he's mixing up uber power elixers in 6 seconds (which boggles the mind), he mixes up stuff when he has time (4 hours a day when camp is made for the night for example), or back in town at an actual lab.
Little bitty 'McGyver' type stuff (up to level 1 or 2 stuff) he can do in the field.
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I think you could add those 'cantrips' to the Alchemist and still maintian balance and flavor.
use this list.
Daze
Detect Magic
Detect Poison
Flare
Light
Purify Food and Drink
Read Magic
Resistance
Stabilize
Virtue
They all have an alchemical feel to them.
Id like to second or third the idea of making an Alchemist have to have a research journal that he keeps Extracts Known in.
Would love Brew Potion as a bonus feat at like 5th.
I would also love it if their "selfish casting" could accomplish more than a wizard or cleric or druid's selfish casting.
Because at the moment, it feels like...
Alchemist: "Aha! I have the power to blow up a glass bottle for 3d6 damage and..."
Wizard: "Really? You still do damage? ... Blast, if you hadn't flinched right then you'd be fetching me a pastry. Cursed unreliable enchantment spells!"
Alchemist: "Well, uh... I can drink this mutagen that gives me bonuses to strength and natural armor and--"
Druid: *roar* ... *fireball*
Alchemist: "... charisma damage... uh... I can give myself a myriad amount of meager buffs and---"
Cleric: "What?" *shield of faith* *healing-domain empowered cure moderate wounds, quickened by a metamagic rod* "I can't hear you!" *bless* *holy lance* "Buff louder!"
Alchemist: "... I knew I should've stayed in the lab."
I think I have to a gree with the adding o-lvl and the spellbook style recipebook.
I personaly like the prep anytime ability. I can see it leading to some dramatic moments. Horde of goblins charging down the hill at party, Alchemist yells "hold them back! just 1 minute!" then makes a potion of form of the dragon.
As for the spell book idea, yes i am in favor of it too. It just dosent make sense for somone that creates specific formulas not to write them down. Incedentaly, a book of alchemical formulae is called a grimoire, pronunced grim-war.
First, I think expanding the formulae list a bit would be good. Second, Alchemists should have 0-level formulae, and be able to mix them at will, just like spellcasters can cast cantrips at will. In playing my 10th level Alchemist, I read the entry about 0-level formulae, and saw they missed the listed and missed including them on his Formulae Known table. I created my own list, since not all 0-level wizard spells would work with the alchemist. I just uses the Bard’s Spells Known table for 0-level formulae progression. These are the 0-level formulae I think they should have.
0-Level Alchemist Formulae
Detect Magic: Detects spells and magic items within 60 ft.
Detect Poison: Detects poison in one creature or small object.
Ghost Sound: Figment sounds.
Guidance: +1 on one attack roll, saving throw, or skill check.
Know Direction: You discern north.
Mage Hand: 5-pound telekinesis.
Message: Whisper conversation at distance.
Prestidigitation: Performs minor tricks.
Read Magic: Read scrolls and spellbooks.
Resistance: Subject gains +1 on saving throws.
Stabilize: Cause a dying creature to stabilize.
Touch of Fatigue: Touch attack fatigues target.
Virtue: Subject gains 1 temporary hp.
Also, on the whole vial question. Who says the Alchemist doesn’t reuse a vial once it’s used. He can only make a certain number of extracts per day. Without the infusion discovery, they go bad by the next day, thus, vials are available to be reused the next. Of course, one way to completely end the conversation is for alchemists to have an item I created called a pouch of replication, which, in essence, replicates (like on Star Trek) any small mundane item that is placed into the bag. If another item is placed inside, it begins replicating that and the previous item is lost. Worked well in 2E for a friend’s drow musket-wielding assassin who replicated his bullets. I can see it working well for replicating vials for bombs, extracts, and mutagens, or even components for said items.
I also agree with the idea of a “research journal”. I think part of the thing about the alchemist should be the ability to collect, or develop new formulae, even jacking ideas from other spellcasting class spell lists. That way they can expand beyond their own formulae list, and it allows the player to focus on certain types of formulae, such as divination type, or necromantic type.
However, like DragonbringerX said, I also think the ability to create on the fly is awesome. You could simply have the alchemist prepare all his neutral catalysts for his bombs, extracts, and mutagens at the beginning of the day, and then, all they have to do is add the final ingredient(s) (which he would already have mixed into solutions or pouches of mixed ingredients, like having salt, pepper and garlic powder mixed already for cooking purposes), and there you go, 1 minute to mix them. Makes workable sense to me.
Good comment by hida_jiremi too.
“What I would like *best* to see in this class is a hybrid spellbook/known/prepared method. That is, an alchemist has a "recipe journal" that all of his known formulae are in; without it, he can't do jack. Each day, he has a certain number of formulae which he can use. He can use his "formula slots" on any formula in his book. Does that combine the best parts of prepared and spontaneous casters? Sort of, but the alchemist needs *something* to make him competitive with other primary casters, which at the moment, he is not.
If the alchemist has limited spell progression and limited slots, then his flexibility should become his selling point. No, you don't get as many slots as a sorcerer, but you have a lot more selection. No, you don't have as fast a progression as the wizard, but you can use your vast selection of "spells" any time you want, any way you want.”
Mdt also said a mouth full. He’s an Alchemist = alchemical; I figure, as stated in another thread (either A modest Proposal: the Alchemist, or Alchemist Bombs Comparisons – take a read if you’re interested) the Alchemist’s niche should be the ability to function in an antimagic field, thus making his class features alchemical based (ie. alchemical bonuses). However, I do not agree with the idea of increasing the component costs, etc. If anyone else but the Alchemist was to do what he does, it would be expensive. The point is, as an alchemist, he’s researched and learned ALL the shortcuts necessary to do his craft. Thus, low cost like a wizard’s component bag.
Later
I don't really think 0-level formulae would be worth the page space it takes to print them. Of the ones you listed Detect Magic is the only one that's slightly useful, and it doesn't really make sense as an extract.
I've yet to run into a situation with my alchemist where I couldn't throw a bomb, drink a higher level extract, or shoot his bow.
Lightbringer you may have missed it but Jason mentioned the inclusion of a portable alchemists lab, that could essentially function as the alchemists spell component pouch.
Yup, I did. Don't know what its stats are going to be, so it may not function quite how I'd like it to. Guess we'll have to see.
I agree that they should use a recipe book and be able to learn all the formulae they want. They also should be able to "spontaneously cast" any formula they know. Considering the small number of formulae they have on their list, this would hardly be overpowering, and it would give them *something* that begins to make up for all of the huge drawbacks they have compared to true spellcasters.
I also want them to have cantrips. It makes sense that they would know a few minor magical rotes. I'd give them the following:
Create Water (the ability to conjure water and other ingredients would help explain their ability to create so many concoctions without hauling a wagon of supplies everywhere they go)
Detect Magic
Detect Poison
Know Direction
Light (I think alchemists should be able to make oils you apply to objects, not just potions)
Mending (also as an oil)
Purify Food and Drink (they're alCHEMISTS for crying out loud, you don't think they should be able to un-poison the village well?)
Prestidigitation
Resistance
Stabilize (assuming they can give their potions to others, which I strongly feel they should be able to without having to pay extra)
Virtue
You want them to be able to spontaneously cast AND prepare extracts ahead of time for the likes of Infusion?
Have your cake and eat it too?
I can't wait for fourth level so I can hand each of the party members there own vial with decorations and labels with their names and spell and everything. I really hate spending any rounds buffing the party (as a cleric or wizard) when I could be buffing myself or bombing stuff to kingdom come.
Let them touch themselves with the hand of god.
You want them to be able to spontaneously cast AND prepare extracts ahead of time for the likes of Infusion?
Have your cake and eat it too?
Absolutely. Look at all the drawbacks that Alchemists have. Not only do they have only 6th level "spells," they can't even use them on other people without a discovery. Even then, you have to hand them out and that person then has to spend an action to benefit from it. This is extremely ineffective compared to spellcasters who can benefit other people without the recipient having to do anything.
Further, alchemists can only benefit one person at a time and per spell slot, even if the spell would normally affect multiple targets. An Alchemist's Haste spell, for example, is greatly inferior to that of a Wizard or Bard, since it only buffs one target rather than the entire party. What's worse, it takes 1 minute to create an extract. No other spellcaster has to deal with such a long "casting" time! It also means that Alchemists have pretty much no ability to improvise in combat. If they didn't have the foresight to make an extract before hand, they're out of luck. So really, their "spontaneous" casting ability isn't really spontaneous at all!
And on top of all that, they have an extremely small and limited "spell" list. So yeah, you're right i want them to be able to book learn AND spontaneously cast. Even that would still leave them far behind other casters, even bards, but at least it would give them something.
You know they can already do that right? Just like a wizard can reserve spell slots to spend 15 minutes to prepare a spell. I thought you where talking about making an extract and using it that same round like a sorcerer picks a spell and casts it.
Mixing an extract takes 1 minute
of work—most alchemists prepare many extracts at the
start of the day or just before going on an adventure, but
it’s not uncommon for an alchemist to keep some (or even
all) of his daily extract slots open so that he can prepare
extracts in the field as needed.
Personally I really like being able to distribute spells ahead of time and not have to cast it on them. Most people only spend that first round positioning themselves anyways.
You know they can already do that right? Just like a wizard can reserve spell slots to spend 15 minutes to prepare a spell. I thought you where talking about making an extract and using it that same round like a sorcerer picks a spell and casts it.
You don't understand. I'm saying that instead of having a set number of extract formulae known, they should use a recipe book, similar to a wizard's spellbook, and be able to learn any number of formulae. As long as an Alchemist knows the formula, he should be able to make that extract, up to his daily extract slot limit, with no preparation at the beginning of the day. The only "preparation" he should have to worry about is the time required to make the extract itself.
They also should be able to "spontaneously cast" any formula they know. Considering the small number of formulae they have on their list, this would hardly be overpowering, and it would give them *something* that begins to make up for all of the huge drawbacks they have compared to true spellcasters.
What's worse, it takes 1 minute to create an extract. No other spellcaster has to deal with such a long "casting" time! It also means that Alchemists have pretty much no ability to improvise in combat. If they didn't have the foresight to make an extract before hand, they're out of luck. So really, their "spontaneous" casting ability isn't really spontaneous at all!
Mixing an extract takes 1 minute
of work—most alchemists prepare many extracts at the
start of the day or just before going on an adventure, but
it’s not uncommon for an alchemist to keep some (or even
all) of his daily extract slots open so that he can prepare
extracts in the field as needed.
Yes, I understand perfectly, and have already answered you. Regarding the idea of having a formula book which let's you add formula to it like a wizard add's spells. I agree with this, but that's not what I was responding to. Not like an alchemist isn't already completely gear dependent or anything.
Not like an alchemist isn't already completely gear dependent or anything.
The cost of a recipe book wouldn't be that much, considering how few formulae there are. I'd also expect them to get 2 free formulae each level. I just think it makes alot more sense than them knowing a set number of "spells" the way sorcerers do and being unable to learn anything from research or trading with other alchemists.
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What purpose does the Alchemist, as written serve?
The one guy above used a locked door as an example of what an Alchemist can do for a party. If your Rogue or Wizard/Sorcerer can't figure out how to open a door, they need to be fired.
It seems to me this particular "base" class is an attempt to create a class to fit a rule concept rather than a niche. Don't get me wrong, I think there is a DEFINITE niche for an alchemist, but not this version of one.
The cost of a recipe book wouldn't be that much, considering how few formulae there are. I'd also expect them to get 2 free formulae each level. I just think it makes alot more sense than them knowing a set number of "spells" the way sorcerers do and being unable to learn anything from research or trading with other alchemists.
What I meant by being gear dependent is if a wizard loses his spellbook. He can cast Read Magic. If an alchemist lost his formulabook he would only have bombs and maybe mutagens. A spellbook/forumlabook implies that they don't have their formula's memorized and instead keep them written down to prepare them out of the book. If the book was lost they would have to repurchase formulas to fill out the book again.
If anyone is interested, I've posted a new thread called Alchemist Rebuild Based of Numerous Suggestion Posts that is a rebuild of the Alchemist based on many of your suggestions,and others from other threads. Go check it out and comment.