I'm confuse as to the role the Alchemist plays, I also love the Inquisitor.


Round 3: Alchemist and Inquisitor


First thing first, I find the Alchemist a rather interesting class, and would love to see it get some improvements. The theme is great, an alternative to magic. It reminds me of Psionics and Magic of Incarnum "a very fun and over looked, and unfortunately under powered book."

I do like how the Alchemist can change what potions he need on the fly, as I briefly though of a scenario where a rogue alchemist, sneaks into to some fancy temple, and sees he can't get through this wall, but theirs a small size hole there "old building", so he brews up a shrink potion and jumps right threw it.

My problem however, is I don't see what this class purpose is over all. I see this class as a mad bomber/grenadier theme. Which I am completely ok with, but I don't see him as something very effective. As it seems to take an entire full round action to actually make and throw one of his potions, and if I'm not mistaken, he has to much nearer then he would probably want to be after throwing some of theses bombs.

Some of his smoke bomb, poison bombs, shock bombs, might put a stop to any charging barbarian, "If you can stop a charging barbarian, then that's not a good barbarian am I right?...I kid" The alchemist will always put himself in a dangerous situation that this lighting armor ranged class should avoid, or is this where the "alchemy spells" come in.

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Almost all of his spells are self buffs, which makes perfect sense considering they're potions, all of which would benefit him "I guess even enlarge person" but the question of why he would need some of theses. For example, when would an alchemist need to use expand person, bull strength, and haste? Well when anyone else would use it, they want to hit someone hard and fast.

However my point is, why couldn't he perhaps throw these potions on his barbarian friend over there so he could charge that mean looking giant over coming towards them.

Also, while his barbarian friend is fighting that mean looking giant, the alchemist wouldn't possibly want to throw some some potions at the giant as they could very well hurt his angry friend. "unless he has insane damage reduction and wouldn't really care anyway from the splash damage."

Bottom line, I think this class could use need some tuning.

I loved Inquisitor, and my only thoughts on it would actually be the tactic feats, which I found to be a very interesting feature, but as other mentioned, will probably be over looked. Perhaps one of the Judgment could temporary give his allies access to a one, or many of his tactic feats?

Also wondering if he could somehow get additional damage, say, like sneak attack, or, perhaps his bane would get an additional +1 damage for ever 2/Inquisitor level.

Grand Lodge

post monster ate my post!

Okay another try.

I looked at the Alchemist after reading your post. I honestly can't imagine anyone seriously wanting to play 20 levels as an Alchemist. I honestly can't see playing more than 3 levels as an Alchemist. It would be suited as a 10 level Prestige Class I think.

What role does it fill? Darn good question. It does nothing extremely well. Maybe it is meant to fill the role of "sort of useful on occasion, but usually sit back and watch others take an active role" kind of character.

Honestly I wouldn't waste my time playing this "base" class. If I want to play an Alchemist (or a crafty type of character) I would simply play a Generic Expert or Spellcaster and use the Craft Points rule. You can do just about everything the Alchemist can do, and a LOT more. Make Potions, Scrolls, Magic Items in a jiffy.

I am a HUGE fan of the alchemist concept and was thrilled to see it would be in the Advanced Players Guide. But this version leaves a seriously sour taste in my mouth. I can get a better alchemist by playing a wizard that specializes in crafting feats.

It seems to me this version of the alchemist is an attempt to use some "cool" rules ideas that someone came up with. I'll be darned if I can figure out a REAL niche for it.

RPG Superstar 2011 Top 4

I think hucking around bombs with Vital Strike and Deadly Aim at higher levels will be grand. Being able to give the rogue, edielon, and bard an extract of Transformation is pretty sweet.

Also, have you see the Big Bomb Bag? What's not to love there.

Did you know the alchemist can use his move actions while standing next to the ranger each turn to poison an arrow. Or that at level 8 you can poison the weapon of every person in the party and have it last 5 strikes (20 Int) and that you can craft these poisons at a very low cost and speed. Or that the DC for said poisons goes up by +2 every time a party member strikes a foe.

At level 1 if you have a Dex of 18 and are wearing studded leather armor, for 1 fight you can have an AC of 23? After chugging an extract of shield and your Mutagen.


Scipion del Ferro wrote:

I think hucking around bombs with Vital Strike and Deadly Aim at higher levels will be grand. Being able to give the rogue, edielon, and bard an extract of Transformation is pretty sweet.

Also, have you see the Big Bomb Bag? What's not to love there.

Did you know the alchemist can use his move actions while standing next to the ranger each turn to poison an arrow. Or that at level 8 you can poison the weapon of every person in the party and have it last 5 strikes (20 Int) and that you can craft these poisons at a very low cost and speed. Or that the DC for said poisons goes up by +2 every time a party member strikes a foe.

At level 1 if you have a Dex of 18 and are wearing studded leather armor, for 1 fight you can have an AC of 23? After chugging an extract of shield and your Mutagen.

Well that could be true about any "caster" that can "cast" shield.

If you where a level in monk and a level in a mage class, you could cast mage armor, and shield, on yourself, while getting ac from your probably high dex, and probably high wis, but that's true about any caster. In fact, I might rather just be a bard with tower shield proficiency while wearing studded leather, or if he ever got his hand on a wand of shield, but that's beyond level 1.

Ah, so he can place bombs, I was getting confused to how it says his potions lose all abilities when it leaves contact of the alchemist, but gave him abilities like that. Although, now I wounder if all I have to do is keep my hand on the alchemist, and drink a few of his potions.

I did not know about the poison ability, I thought he could only do it for himself. Which indeed can be very useful. However its a swift action, "which is better but only applies for one times" so he couldn't do it for ever arrow, "waste a fullround to poison 3 arrows?" and does that apply to any weapon he isn't touching? Even if it does, which it probably does, it would seem best suited for melee weapons. Which would be very awkward since I believe he has to actually be adjacent to the person.

Although if it can last for your int modifier "where did you read that?" that would indeed make that better. He potions seem to give him more of a Doctor Jekyll and Mr. Hyde feel now. Which would also be great, if the amount of time for him to do this was much shorter.

Even with that poison trick though, which I think is very useful, I still don't see this class as overall useful.

Grand Lodge

Scipion del Ferro wrote:

I think hucking around bombs with Vital Strike and Deadly Aim at higher levels will be grand. Being able to give the rogue, edielon, and bard an extract of Transformation is pretty sweet.

Also, have you see the Big Bomb Bag? What's not to love there.

Did you know the alchemist can use his move actions while standing next to the ranger each turn to poison an arrow. Or that at level 8 you can poison the weapon of every person in the party and have it last 5 strikes (20 Int) and that you can craft these poisons at a very low cost and speed. Or that the DC for said poisons goes up by +2 every time a party member strikes a foe.

At level 1 if you have a Dex of 18 and are wearing studded leather armor, for 1 fight you can have an AC of 23? After chugging an extract of shield and your Mutagen.

Well that is all well and good for an NPC or something.

Transformation is nice, but a 16th level Wizard/Sorcerer can do much more impressive stuff.

At 8th level what Discovery or ability allows you to Poison the weapon of every party member? Where does it say the DC for poisons goes up by +2 every time a party member strikes a foe? I do not find those in any Discovery at all.

RPG Superstar 2011 Top 4

Swift Alchemy let's you poison a weapon as a move action. They never say who's weapon. At 8th level you can take Sticky Poison and apply your poisons to the weapon of everyone at the start of the day, one does each, it'll last a strike per Int Mod.

All poisons get an increase to their DC each application of the poison, it's part of the condition's rules. It also increases the duration by half again.

I'm not saying these are things that are super awesome and no one else can do, but that these are things they can do that are pretty cool. Wizards can do ridiculous things, especially if you open up the rules for 3.5 books it's kind of mean to compare the alchemist to a wizard they don't stand a chance. That's just not a role they fill.

They aren't the big stupid fighter, or the hand of god, they're more of a combination between a glass cannon and a gimp. Except they don't have to do any of their party buffing/healing/poisoning whatever in combat they do it all ahead of time by handing out extracts to the party along with a smattering of alchemical items. That way during combat they can spend their time bombing, shooting, or flanking.

I do kinda wish they had access to Stone Shape, it would give them some nice utility and terrain control.


Krome wrote:

At 8th level what Discovery or ability allows you to Poison the weapon of every party member? Where does it say the DC for poisons goes up by +2 every time a party member strikes a foe? I do not find those in any Discovery at all.

"In addition, each dose of poison increases the DC to resist the poison by +2." Page 558 of the Pathfinder Core Rulebook.


Scipion del Ferro wrote:
I think hucking around bombs with Vital Strike and Deadly Aim at higher levels will be grand.

You can't use Deadly Aim with touch attacks. :-/

RPG Superstar 2011 Top 4

hogarth wrote:
Scipion del Ferro wrote:
I think hucking around bombs with Vital Strike and Deadly Aim at higher levels will be grand.
You can't use Deadly Aim with touch attacks. :-/

Touche salesman. That's too bad really. There goes another few points of damage.

Dark Archive

I agree that the alchemist currently feels unfocused. If its a party buffer, then it shouldn't require a discovery to let other PCs use extracts. If its supposed to be a backup melee with mutagens, then there needs to be some improvement to mutagens between 3rd and 11th level. If its going to be a damage-dealer with bombs, then there should really be more ways to shape the bombs' blast to keep allies from dying to them. And regardless of what role the alchemist takes, it needs more discoveries - 1 every 3 levels or even every other level after 4th.

As it is, I see the 4th level slot always getting filled by the infusion discovery to share extracts with other PCs, then an 8th level slot for the sticky poison discovery (since without it poisons are too expensive to use frequently), then the 12th slot goes into smoke bomb, then 16th for whichever bomb-related discovery you want that already needed smoke bomb (probably stink bomb), and then 20th doesn't matter because nobody really plays at that level.


Akalsaris wrote:
and then 20th doesn't matter because nobody really plays at that level.

Doesn't mean that you should just ignore it and not worry about it, most of the campaigns we play we have been playing for over 5 years, so we barely play under 20th..but then again we have a GM that at lvl 1-3 you fight stuff other then goblins, orc's and kobolds. So if you have a bad class that doesn't have all the levels sorted out, it will be another class that everyone just overlooks.

The way I look at the Alchemist is

A. d8 hit dice..nice
B. Able to "cast" arcane and divine spells...not many arcane classes can heal themselves without dual-classing
C. Your an Alchemist, not a fighter, you craft stuff, the role is support, your not going to be showing up the fighters, rangers, and barbs. So you can throw a few bombs, and you run out, so don't all wizards that have spells run out of their most damaging ones, they aren't sorcerers.
D. You can make poisons, apply poison FAST and with the stacking rules for poisons, even at low levels you could ensure that your saves would be failed.

Alchemists would be situational, but with what they can do with potions and poisons they are very utilitarian. If you want to make everyone in the party say wow your awesome..don't play the alchemist. I always play casters, and at lower levels, especially 1-3, your going to get a few magic missiles out of me and thats it. But starting at 9th level the real threat of a caster starts to show.
Personally I wouldn't take the bombs, I would take feral mutagen, sticky poison, and use my extracts for bull's strength, with 3/4 BAB and those buffs, the alchemist would be better than a monk, with poison on the claws also.

My 2cp


I sort of want him to keep his Doctor Jekyll Mr. Hyde abilities.


Lockgo wrote:
My problem however, is I don't see what this class purpose is over all. I see this class as a mad bomber/grenadier theme. Which I am completely ok with, but I don't see him as something very effective. As it seems to take an entire full round action to actually make and throw one of his potions, and if I'm not mistaken, he has to much nearer then he would probably want to be after throwing some of theses bombs.

I don't need a purpose from a class i can apply it my self. i would say the class needs the ability to focus, but most of the suggestions from the other threads do that nicely.


Dredan wrote:
B. Able to "cast" arcane and divine spells...not many arcane classes can heal themselves without dual-classing

Most arcane classes can cast spells. You do not. You have a very limited number of buffs. You cannot use large buffs or debuffs to help the party, you can't do battlefield control, and you have no single target blasts. You are not able to cast arcane or divine spells - you can just buff yourself in a very limited manner.

Quote:
C. Your an Alchemist, not a fighter, you craft stuff, the role is support, your not going to be showing up the fighters, rangers, and barbs. So you can throw a few bombs, and you run out, so don't all wizards that have spells run out of their most damaging ones, they aren't sorcerers.

Again, you cannot support. Your buffs can't effect other players. Wizards can run out of damaging spells, but still have haste and slow memorized. Sorcerers cast far more spells then you can. And for that matter, you cannot craft stuff. The Alchemist doesn't get Brew Potion.

Achemists aren't really situational. Everything they can do, other classes can do more often and better. The only situation an alchemist is good for is for sixth party member.


ProfessorCirno wrote:
chemists aren't really situational. Everything they can do, other classes can do more often and better. The only situation an alchemist is good for is for sixth party member.

Wasn't that basically what was stated for the bard in 3.5?


Ryan White 148 wrote:
ProfessorCirno wrote:
chemists aren't really situational. Everything they can do, other classes can do more often and better. The only situation an alchemist is good for is for sixth party member.
Wasn't that basically what was stated for the bard in 3.5?

Bards where the fifth part member.

The fighter type, the healer/divine type, the rogue, the Mage, and the jack of all trades "The supporter, mister, I can help too".

and yes, wizards and clerics could also occupy that as well.

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