The SLA was changed. It now behaves exactly like the spell except you can only have 1 active casting of it at a time. ( in other words, it also has a full round casting time )So then a summoner, other than its companion and lack of spell selection, is no different than any other arcane caster... Whats the point of the class if you you don't want to role-play a custom creature? The originality of it has been stripped by hypothetical power gamed situations (IMO, unrealistic) down to a restricted arcane druid...
Except a wizard can summon more at a time.
That is a question several posters have been asking. And getting called "munchkin" (or a variation) for it, either directly or indirectly. Or, more commonly, told that the Summoner needs to be this way for balance reasons.
The SLA was changed. It now behaves exactly like the spell except you can only have 1 active casting of it at a time. ( in other words, it also has a full round casting time )So then a summoner, other than its companion and lack of spell selection, is no different than any other arcane caster... Whats the point of the class if you you don't want to role-play a custom creature? The originality of it has been stripped by hypothetical power gamed situations (IMO, unrealistic) down to a restricted arcane druid...
Except a wizard can summon more at a time.
Hypothetical situations is actually what it comes down to from what I have read from the whiners on this board. Bottom line any DM or GM or whatever you want to call them who is worth a copper will be able to deal with it. All these little nit picky rules should be left up to the games DM to rule on like cursed items "who cares". It becomes a DM call what will happen because if you pick 10 gameing groups you will see it handeled 10 differant ways. A cursed item has come up once in the last 4 years of game sessions in our group. More than likely there are house rules in place and the DM is going to read over the class and make any changes he wants to incorporate.
|
Jason,
Since alot of people posting on here agree with the no armour for your Eidolon but disagree on the nerfs to SLA & alot of people seem to agree that Summon SLA should be changed to -
only 1 at a time
standard action to cast not 1 round
1 minute/level duration not 1 round/level
can you please make this an update to the official playtest rules for the Summoner - I have a game coming up & wanted to playtest this way but I can playtest the character only with official rulings
I think alot of people would be happier to playtest this way too
thx Cee
Jason,
Since alot of people posting on here agree with the no armour for your Eidolon but disagree on the nerfs to SLA & alot of people seem to agree that Summon SLA should be changed to -
only 1 at a time
standard action to cast not 1 round
1 minute/level duration not 1 round/levelcan you please make this an update to the official playtest rules for the Summoner - I have a game coming up & wanted to playtest this way but I can playtest the character only with official rulings
I think alot of people would be happier to playtest this way too
thx Cee
+1
Jason,
Since alot of people posting on here agree with the no armour for your Eidolon but disagree on the nerfs to SLA & alot of people seem to agree that Summon SLA should be changed to -
only 1 at a time
standard action to cast not 1 round
1 minute/level duration not 1 round/levelcan you please make this an update to the official playtest rules for the Summoner - I have a game coming up & wanted to playtest this way but I can playtest the character only with official rulings
I think alot of people would be happier to playtest this way too
This IS the update, this is the way the class is right now. He would like people to try it out with the changes at the top of this thread and give feedback on that.
|
|
This IS the update, this is the way the class is right now. He would like people to try it out with the changes at the top of this thread and give feedback on that.
umm... Dennis - the way I read it is Jason updated the character class by removing the ability to wear armour on the eidolon, limited summon SLA to one at a time, casting time to one full round & limited duration to rounds/level & this is what Jason is asking to be playtested
since most people believe the nerf bat hit the class too heavily and are agreeing with some of this but not all & the consensus seems to be what I have asked for as an official update to the playtest rules & this is what people are wanting to be officially playtested
if I am wrong please and we are supposed to playtest what I have asked cause I missed an update from Jason in all these posts let me know - no offensive is meant to be implied but since Mr Subtle also agrees I dont think I missed anything
and i totally understand that's what is being called munchkin, but what my point is, if you make the summoner less or equal to other classes in specifically summoning. Then it no longer becomes a Summoner, or any form of a class worth taking to role-play as one.
That is a question several posters have been asking. And getting called "munchkin" (or a variation) for it, either directly or indirectly. Or, more commonly, told that the Summoner needs to be this way for balance reasons.
Maybe you are forgetting that the summoner summons his Eidolon? No other summoner even comes close to that sort of summoning power until they get their capstone abilities. Every battle the summoner has his summoned Eidolon fighting at his side.
I love that Jason found a way to keep summon spells part of the class but the class is designed around having one very powerful summoned creature and all the rest of the design decisions are made from there.
Don't get me wrong, I would like to see at least a small increase in duration for the SMX ability but the class is pretty solid as is.
This IS the update, this is the way the class is right now. He would like people to try it out with the changes at the top of this thread and give feedback on that.umm... Dennis - the way I read it is Jason updated the character class by removing the ability to wear armour on the eidolon, limited summon SLA to one at a time, casting time to one full round & limited duration to rounds/level & this is what Jason is asking to be playtested
since most people believe the nerf bat hit the class too heavily and are agreeing with some of this but not all & the consensus seems to be what I have asked for as an official update to the playtest rules & this is what people are wanting to be officially playtested
if I am wrong please and we are supposed to playtest what I have asked cause I missed an update from Jason in all these posts let me know - no offensive is meant to be implied but since Mr Subtle also agrees I dont think I missed anything
This is a playtest of Jason's design, not "Design a class by comittee".
This IS the update, this is the way the class is right now. He would like people to try it out with the changes at the top of this thread and give feedback on that.umm... Dennis - the way I read it is Jason updated the character class by removing the ability to wear armour on the eidolon, limited summon SLA to one at a time, casting time to one full round & limited duration to rounds/level & this is what Jason is asking to be playtested
since most people believe the nerf bat hit the class too heavily and are agreeing with some of this but not all & the consensus seems to be what I have asked for as an official update to the playtest rules & this is what people are wanting to be officially playtested
if I am wrong please and we are supposed to playtest what I have asked cause I missed an update from Jason in all these posts let me know - no offensive is meant to be implied but since Mr Subtle also agrees I dont think I missed anything
I agree that I would rather playtest with the rule changes you mentioned... (SM-SLA, Standard action, 1min/lvl, 1 active at a time)
|
Not sure if anyone mentioned this or if it's been fixed or not, but off topic of what everyone seems to be discussing.
The Large and Huge evolutions seem to be essentially the same except the Huge costs one extra evolution point and gives an extra +1 to natural armor. But for that same extra evolution point, you can get Improved Natural Armor for a +2 to natural armor. So the Large evolution probably needs to be brought down, say +4 Strength and +2 Constitution, and the penalties for a Huge creature increased.
I believe the bonuses and penalties are supposed to stack. So not really the same thing at all.
|
Some feedback from my group:
- We drew up a gnome summoner at lvl 1, 7, 13, and 20. His Eidolon was a quadruped.
Excellent feedback, Kain Gallant. I think the board needs to see more of this type of posting. Concise and sticks to the facts Jason is asking for. Also, I can use it when considering my own playtesting.
|
|
Hypothetical situations is actually what it comes down to from what I have readPlease don't let Hypothetical situations ruin a great original build.
My stake in seeing a great summoner class comes from wanting a great Pathfinder Society experience. I know playtesting the class involves running many homebrew games and with material from Paizo and non-Paizo sources (and it should). However, since 90% of my Pathfinder RPG play comes from Pathfinder Society games I'd like to see a class that's solid in both how a player builds the character and how the GM uses the rules. Consistency is the point I'm trying to make. To do that we need more playtest data like what I commented to earlier. i'll back up this statement when I post the results of our 12/13 playtest (our earlier session was postponed).
|
|
What is everybody's problem with letting eidolon's use items? Seriously, it comes from the same pool of wealth as the summoner, why are so many peoples freaking out over the possibility of an Eidolon wearing a ring of X or an amulet of Y, or a belt of Z?
I have one gentle answer to this question. In no way is the answer intended to judge another person's play style or decision. I haven't commented on this subject because I feel I have a narrow opinion on the matter (or maybe not). Having said that, this is my reasoning why I have an issue with it. In a different organized play campaign I judged many players running a druid that focused on the animal companion instead of his/her PC. I made jokes about it (which was ok because the people were friends of mine) that he played an animal PC with a druid companion. I said that because the animal companion, when buffed with items, dominated every combat. So much so that fighters, paladins and barbarians succumbed to providing it flanks and aid another because it could hit more often and do better damage. The druid didn't participate other than to cast the buff spells. It went even so far that the player(s) wanted their companion to use martial weapons, make knowledge rolls then 'communicate' this information to the party, intimidate NPCs, and speak to NPCs. Yes, speak to NPCs because they were 'trained to' and 'had the skills by rule'. I never enjoyed those particular game sessions because I wanted to roleplay with PCs, not run a scenario with an animal taking center stage leading six PCs around like pups. The eidolon isn't this bad but having it use weapons and magic items does concern me because of my experience. I think we need to focus on making a great summoner class and compliment it with an eidolon that doesn't overpower the roleplaying potential of its master, and the five other party members.
Again, that's my experience and opinion. I've held off on saying it because it could be an exception to the norm. I didn't want to start or add to the long list of posts on the subject.
I would like to ask those that read this please do not say I'm wrong or find faults to debate. I've posted my thought to kyrt-ryder as a courtesy to his answer his question.
A Eidolon with limbsX3 and clawsX4 can make 8 claw attacks?
Bleah.
Not pleased with the 1 summon at a time for rounds per day change. It's just plain lame, especially at 1st and 2nd level when spending a standard action to get a creature for 1 or 2 rounds is nigh on pointless.
I have a player with a Summoner in my campaign starting Friday. Hopefully he'll want to continue playing it.
That is a question several posters have been asking. And getting called "munchkin" (or a variation) for it, either directly or indirectly. Or, more commonly, told that the Summoner needs to be this way for balance reasons.
The SLA was changed. It now behaves exactly like the spell except you can only have 1 active casting of it at a time. ( in other words, it also has a full round casting time )So then a summoner, other than its companion and lack of spell selection, is no different than any other arcane caster... Whats the point of the class if you you don't want to role-play a custom creature? The originality of it has been stripped by hypothetical power gamed situations (IMO, unrealistic) down to a restricted arcane druid...
Except a wizard can summon more at a time.
WORD! I don't even understand the balance concerns, either. Did anyone even pay attention to the thread where this was discussed? Who cares if the Summoner novas with his summons... he'll have NO summons for the rest of the day!
At the VERY least, I beg Paizo to create a utilitarian summon which DOES last minutes per level so that the Summoner can get some work done which was the best part about the long duration summon in the first place.
|
I think there is some confusion here. The summoner can summon only once with it's SLA at a time. It can still use spells on top of that to summon more stuff so the summoner can still have several things out at a time.
I still think that the SLA casting time sucks. It should be a standard action and the summoned should get an action on the round it is summoned.
I also think the SLA should have an extended duration (maybe 1 minute plus 1 round per summoner level?).
|
I think there is some confusion here. The summoner can summon only once with it's SLA at a time. It can still use spells on top of that to summon more stuff so the summoner can still have several things out at a time.
I still think that the SLA casting time sucks. It should be a standard action and the summoned should get an action on the round it is summoned.
I also think the SLA should have an extended duration (maybe 1 minute plus 1 round per summoner level?).
agree here.
SLA Summon Monster spells as Standard Action activation, duration Min/Level, 1 Critter at a time, and keep the rest of the class as is.
As for the Eidolon using weapons/armor, I hadn't really considered that option (the only one I've made was a claw/tentacle/grapple beast) but it seems like it could work. Drop the Natural Armor Evolution, or reduce the Natural Armor the pet gets normally, and let the summoner add those missing AC points back on via armor or evolution points.
As far as weapons, why not treat it like the Companions? They get smart enough to take feats, take the Martial (or Exotic) Weapon Proficiency, now you have a greatsword wielding tentacle monster. Seems like a fair trade to me.
Hopefully the Conjurer player in our Second Darkness game will elect to swap to Summoner. If so, I hope to be able to provide some longitudinal testing over a couple of levels.
-t
If the idea was to remove all desire to play this class in order to get more people to playtest the Witch, then Mission Accomplished! LOL
|
If the idea was to remove all desire to play this class in order to get more people to playtest the Witch, then Mission Accomplished! LOL
Really, because I love the changes. The only thing I think needs to be added is a cha bonus to the # of rounds the SLA summons lasts. Other than that I think this class is great and still would love to play it.
|
|
and I don't think eidelons need armor at all with their large Nat Armor bonus, if you want an eidelon in armor, guess what you control its appearance, that natural armor looks like a suit of spiked full plate, it just can't be removed, I don't see why we need any form of stacking armor on them at all.
If anything though, I'd prefer that you had to buy magic items slots with evolution points, so there's a 1 point evolution
Magic item use: the eidelon may choose to wear a single magic item in the one of the following slots: eyes, head, neck, and shoulders. if it has the limbs (arms) evolution it may add ring to the selection of slots. This evolution may be taken multiple times its effects do not stack, each time you choose it you must choose a different slot, an eidelon with the limbs (arms) evolution may choose the ring slot twice.
|
Now THAT idea I like.
Don't be so quick to like it. Look at the text I embolded/italicized.
Magic item use: the eidelon may choose to wear a single magic item in the one of the following slots: eyes, head, neck, and shoulders. if it has the limbs (arms) evolution it may add ring to the selection of slots. This evolution may be taken multiple times its effects do not stack, each time you choose it you must choose a different slot, an eidelon with the limbs (arms) evolution may choose the ring slot once for each arm it possesses.
Look, that Eidolon has six rings! And they all function!
Now, if im missing something here, please tell me.
|
|
Now THAT idea I like.Don't be so quick to like it. Look at the text I embolded/italicized.
Magic item use: the eidelon may choose to wear a single magic item in the one of the following slots: eyes, head, neck, and shoulders. if it has the limbs (arms) evolution it may add ring to the selection of slots. This evolution may be taken multiple times its effects do not stack, each time you choose it you must choose a different slot, an eidelon with the limbs (arms) evolution may choose the ring slot once for each arm it possesses.Look, that Eidolon has six rings! And they all function!
Now, if im missing something here, please tell me.
My bad my first read through of the summoner update I thought he meant that you could wear two rings for each set of arms you posses now re-reading it I see he meant that you get two ring slots period, I'll edit my entry. although really, I could honestly see instead a completely seperate evolution for rings that cost two points but you could take it once for each arm you possess and thus have six functioning rings.
|
|
I could honestly see instead a completely seperate evolution for rings that cost two points but you could take it once for each arm you possess and thus have six functioning rings.
Which will cause all the power-gamers to squeel like a school-girl and cause all the people who over-reatced(IMHO) to the armor try to ram the resulting removal of the evolution down your throat.
And then the DM throws a marrilth with six ring at your group.
|
|
And then the DM throws a marrilth with six ring at your group.And then the group kills the marrilith, takes the rings they like, and sell the rest.
Which only happens if the group kills it.[/threadjack]
So, who else thinks the next weekly poll should be:
1) Give the Summoner back their original SLA.
2) Let the Eidolon keep magic items if it is dismissed.
3) Make the updates permanent.
I'd vote for 1.
I, for one, couldn't care less about the eidolon. I read the orriginal summoning ability and asked my GM if I could change my conjurer over. This change makes me not.
I dont see the need for any of the changes to it. The full round action of summoning just makes me a target on the field, and doesn't really seem ballanced for my conjurer. The 1 round durration makes them worthless at low levels, its not even worth using the class ability until 5th level. As for only being able to have 1, why? Its not like they will ever need more than 2 out, and if they use more than that they either need it or are wasting resources they should need later.
Perhaps my opinion is jaded, but I see this as the primary class feature over the Eidolon.
|
|
I could honestly see instead a completely seperate evolution for rings that cost two points but you could take it once for each arm you possess and thus have six functioning rings.Which will cause all the power-gamers to squeel like a school-girl and cause all the people who over-reatced(IMHO) to the armor try to ram the resulting removal of the evolution down your throat.
And then the DM throws a marrilth with six ring at your group.
Really, six rings would cost 14 points (assuming bi-pedal form), you could also add a level limit for the # of rings and I guess I just don't see that many game overpowering rings, but if that's the case then don't make the ring slot evolution, problem solved.
|
|
Now THAT idea I like.Don't be so quick to like it. Look at the text I embolded/italicized.
Magic item use: the eidelon may choose to wear a single magic item in the one of the following slots: eyes, head, neck, and shoulders. if it has the limbs (arms) evolution it may add ring to the selection of slots. This evolution may be taken multiple times its effects do not stack, each time you choose it you must choose a different slot, an eidelon with the limbs (arms) evolution may choose the ring slot once for each arm it possesses.Look, that Eidolon has six rings! And they all function!
Now, if im missing something here, please tell me.
Rings are freakin' expensive! If someone wanted to toss 6 rings on the beast then I say go ahead.
NO pie!
IMO the duration or the number of summons could be trimed but both is kind of heavy. Can a summoner call in a swarm of weaker creatures with a Summon monster III. 1D4+1 Fiendish rats or can he only summon one full ranked creature. Also the longer duration is a non issue. A 10 round combat (1 minute) is rare until higher levels. Plus a longer duration allows for a noncombat applications short term flying mounts or trap busters.
I have 8 goblins each with 1 attack. You have 4 PCs only one or two of which have a "good" AC. Sleep, color spray and burning hands can clear a field faster that a fighter. I know I have. If that fight last longer than a few rounds someone could be in serious trouble.
At high level, two letters "SR"
And playing 52 pickup after the Eidolon is dismissed is rrrrreeealll dumb.
What is everybody's problem with letting eidolon's use items? Seriously, it comes from the same pool of wealth as the summoner, why are so many peoples freaking out over the possibility of an Eidolon wearing a ring of X or an amulet of Y, or a belt of Z?
I've seen some examples here on the forums of some crazy things you can do with them in combination with the Eidolon. It doesn't seem like it was balanced with items in mind.
The challenging part is do you balance the Eidolon with the assumption that it will be fully equiped or do you balance it under the assumption that it is going into battle un-equipped. There is a vast difference there in how they should be statted out. Hopefully Jason is working on getting the item issues balanced out along with some other issues.
Perhaps my opinion is jaded, but I see this as the primary class feature over the Eidolon.
Which is exactly what it was NOT intended to be. It was intended to be a secondary power.
If there were a second summoner class where this was the primary feature then it would probably be fine. As a secondary thing to the Eidolon it's a bit crazy considering the class is based very much around the Eidolon the class needs to be designed around that.
And playing 52 pickup after the Eidolon is dismissed is rrrrreeealll dumb.
How many attacks does yours get. Natural weapons are one attack per round and I was talked about summon monster durations so there, ;}
Director of Games
|
Alright folks...
Lets just all take a minute to calm down. There are a number of wholly unnecessary arguments occurring in this thread... Here is a couple of points.
1. This is the way the summoner currently works. If you feel it is no longer worth playing, consider it noted and try one of the other classes. Posting again and again about the change you want to see made is not going to get any changes made any faster. I am working through some feedback on the class with these changes in play and until I am through that, there will be no further alterations.
2. This is not design by committee. Piling on with "+1" posts will get you no where. In the past, I have used ideas that were only brought up once by a single poster... and ignored those posted by dozens. I am trying to do what is in the best interest of the game here and sometimes that means going against the grain or picking out small gems. If it is posted once.. I have seen it. Feel free to move along.
3. The earliest you are going to see any further changes to this class is probably 3-4 weeks away. I have a lot of other parts of this book that need my attention, not to mention the other two classes. The Oracle and Cavalier need an update before these two at any rate.
That is all for now... keep things civil folks. I would hate to have to shut this thread down.
Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo Publishing