It's not that it's form changes evolutions constantly, but that they aren't exactly stable in form. Not as amorphous as an ooze, but not as stable as an angel. Think more like a doppleganger or mimic, but with less control moment to moment. I think it's works fine. I can easily see my Eidolon ripple as it walks, or when it grows angry little ridges form up and down it's spine like a oscilloscope readout.
--Jingle Bell Vrock
But that's yet another concept problem. While some people might be OK with it, I don't like the idea that my eidolon isn't a stable form. Heck, if it's not stable, winged flight doesn't work (and I'm not going to get into the physics on that, but it doesn't), and wearing anything other than rings doesn't make much sense at all. I'm just not buying it.
On top of that, I think there's better ways to balance it out. Do I believe that the AC could be a potential problem? Yes, although the numbers people have dropped are attainable by PCs (I've seen monks break 60). They do have to work a little harder for it though. But I think something like what I suggested is a far better (and fairer) method of balancing it than going 'You can't have armor, even though it fits your eidolon concept perfectly.'.
|
What about having the SLA (and _maybe_ any summon spells he casts) be usable as a standard action, _but_ the summon doesn't appear and act until the next round? This gives the summoner an edge over the conjurer -- he's harder to interrupt while summoning, and he can even use it in a surprise round -- without meaning he suddenly has a small army ready on his turn if he won initiative and surprised an enemy.
|
Allow the Summoner to add his ChaMod to the duration of the Summon SLAs. 1/level + ChaMod rounds is significant at level 1 (when he needs it), but doesn't make much difference at level 20 (when the need isn't as great). Also it has the effect of getting better as he gains levels due to ability increases and stat boosters.
I think this is the best solution. At 1st level, Summons really kind of suck. (Lose a full round action to get two actions next round, yours and your critters, then it vanishes.)
Adding +Cha mod rounds is ideal (instead of a free Extend), and there's still a reason to pick up Extend Spell / Extend Spell-like Ability if the character wants even *more* duration out of his Summons.
What about having the SLA (and _maybe_ any summon spells he casts) be usable as a standard action, _but_ the summon doesn't appear and act until the next round? This gives the summoner an edge over the conjurer -- he's harder to interrupt while summoning, and he can even use it in a surprise round -- without meaning he suddenly has a small army ready on his turn if he won initiative and surprised an enemy.
This may not be such a bad idea, actually. Although I think the standard action/1 min duration ability is fine with the one at a time limit.
Here's a quick question though: Does the one at a time apply only to uses of the SLA, or can he not actually cast Summon Monster when he has an active use of the SLA? If it limits his spellcasting also, then it needs to become a standard rule. It's not like a sorcerer with Summon Monster or the druid who can spontaneously cast Summon Nature's Ally can't do it too.
Also, I just though of another possibility for the armor problem: If the eidolon gains the ability to wear armor, he cannot spend points on the Improved Natural Armor evolution. That way, all he gets is the +2 NA that he starts with, and that's it. That should help limit the numbers also, and may be easier to playtest with.
I didn't like the changes at all. The only thing I would change was the SLA, the would become just one a time. I don't think it's a good idea to mess with the spells or the duration. The summoner must be better than anyone summoning!
Also, I believe that there are other ways to solve the AC problem instead of making the eidolon unstable. Why don't you make the armor use and the natural armor improvement exclusive of each other? Something like that:
"Natural armor improvement(1): thick fur or plates grow from the eidolon's skin providing +2 natural armor bonus. An eidolon with this evolution cannot benefit from any armor as the plates and fur would interfere with it's working."
(This way, you would have to chose between a greater nat ac or armor)
For the equipment, I would suggest this: "If an eidolon expends 24 hours or more with possession of an equipment, it becomes attuned to the eidolon, and comes and returns from the eidolon's place of origin as long as he's wearing or wielding it."
Anything about the summoner skills? This should be something to change. More skill points and social skills.
Any ideas on not-huge effective eidolons or Cha/int based ones?
Anyway, I'm going to playtest again with those modified rules, but no need to be an oracle to see that the summoner player won't like them.
Well, though I may not like the changes, I'm going to test a 5th level Skeletal Champion Summoner and some skeletons against my 2nd level party tomorrow with the new additions. I doubt that they'll have much trouble, given the new bits, but they are rather powerful for a second level party, given that I let them roll 2d6+6 on stats, and there are 6 or 7 of them any given week.
|
|
It'd be like people saying "screw smite evil, lay on hands, spellcasting, and the auras! I only want the special mount!".
In all fairness, the special mount IS the best class feature in the 3.5 paladin, and the only part of the class that got me excited about it :P
Anyhow, I was excited about the Summoner because the conjurer is my favorite archetype from all of 3.5 classes, and the Summoner delivered on my concept of "Guy who summons a ton of monsters" very well - he lacks the strong spell-casting of the conjurer, but has more summon monster spells to make up for it, at the same pace as the conjurer, and they do more than the conjurer's version to boot.
Frankly, I don't mind a pet-centered class, but it's not what I want to play. So maybe that's the direction that PF is taking this class, and that's fine, but it's not one I'm particularly interested in.
If anything, I'd like an option at 1st like what wizards have with an implement or a familiar. For example, with an alternate build for the summoner:
Summoning Focus: Your SLA summoning increases from 3/day to 3+Cha/day, lasts minutes/level, and can be used as a standard action. At 5th level, you gain an eidolon as a guardian, as if you were a 1st level summoner with the Eidolon focus.
Eidolon Focus: Your eidolon begins with a bonus combat feat. At 5th level, and every five levels afterwards, it gains another combat feat.
My two cents....at the risk of being accused of "look and judge" ;)
Although my first reaction to removing armor options for the eidolon was AAhhhh....that's because I spent all last night creating an eidolon that could do just that.
I actually think it's a good idea in regards to balance, and preferable to decreasing their NA progression.
I also have to agree with the other equipment rules changes, for the same reasons.
As to the changes to the summons ability of the summoner...I think I would rather see him keep the casting time and duration, with the caveat that he can only have one summons running at a time.
Doing both takes to much of his utility out of the equation in my opinion.
Regarding the "ever-changing form" fluff - I see it as the Eidolon doesn't have a distinct form when it's on its home plane, and by summoning it, you shape it into its current form.
Regarding the "ever-changing form" fluff - I see it as the Eidolon doesn't have a distinct form when it's on its home plane, and by summoning it, you shape it into its current form.
That is how I saw it. I figure the Eidolon is basically a formless, shapeless mass of energy until you mold it into its physical form. But it is still made of this formless energy mass at its core, so it is far too unstable to wearing normal armor. (Although on the line of thought, some type of 'Astral' armor would be wearable by them?)
No matter what, shifting form or molded energy, Material Plane (The normal one, what is it called in PF?) armor and even magic armor just doesn't fit.
|
|
Okay, so maybe the point of the Summoner is the Eidolon, and all those of us who want utility summons are just a misaimed fandom.
If this is so, and it's your primary ability, why does it take longer to summon your eidolon than it does to cast summon monster? And only once per day? Suppose you're in an urban game and can't have an eldritch abomination following you around all day -- Why not allow the player to use it and dismiss it? (Of course, it should keep its HP total between summonings on the same day. If you want to heal it, get the cleric to heal it, or perhaps add healing spells to the summoner list with the limitation that they can only be used on the eidolon or possibly other summoned creatures -- with that limitation, it might even be appropriate to bring Cure Critical Wounds down to 3rd level for them -- or maybe this would be terribly unbalanced, I'm just going off of how quickly you can augment the Repair Damage power for the Summoner's closest existing counterpart, the Shaper)
Maybe there are some issues with this I don't see because I haven't playtested yet. Hopefully I'll get to monday night, but using the eidolon will definitely be an issue as we're in an urban campaign.
Well I think Jason just gimped the class by droping time back to 1/rd and only allowing 1 creature at a time. The class is designed to throw creatures at people until you run out of spell slots. Taking away the ability for the eldoron to take items with it when it leaves is no big deal. But the rest of the changes need to be stricken and changed back to how it was before.
If this is so, and it's your primary ability, why does it take longer to summon your eidolon than it does to cast summon monster? And only once per day?
Because, as Jason has also stated, the Eidolon is intended to be with you at all times. It has no duration, so only one summoning per day is fine as long as you don't let it die (and you get a "don't let it die" ability at first level, so there's not much excuse).
EDIT: As for the casting time, that's because the Eidolon is fully healed every time it's summoned. If you could summon it in a single round, it'd be a viable combat tactic to unsummon it when it got near death then summon it back at full health. That's not balanced.
Suppose you're in an urban game and can't have an eldritch abomination following you around all day -- Why not allow the player to use it and dismiss it?
Easy answer: don't make it an eldritch abomination. This is no different than a druid taking a wildly inappropriate animal companion for an urban game; you wouldn't expect their pet Tyrannosaurus Rex to be welcomed with open arms, would you? And druids can summon their companions zero times per day.
If you're running an urban game, a more pleasant (or more harmless, at the least) looking eidolon is probably called for.
What Zurai said . Also keep in mind you can leave him outside. 10'000 feet is just under 2 miles. Be a very large city for that would be out of range of the main gate
What Zurai said . Also keep in mind you can leave him outside. 10'000 feet is just under 2 miles. Be a very large city for that would be out of range of the main gate
While this is true, the druid's animal companion doesn't lose the majority of its HP because you needed to leave him outside the gates, which is why this becomes a problem. The party healer's gonna be ticked if he has to use up his healing just because you paid a town a visit and now your ally is half-dead.
Summoners have Use Magic Device as a class skill and Charisma as a casting stat. Just buy a Happy Stick.
Summoners have Use Magic Device as a class skill and Charisma as a casting stat. Just buy a Happy Stick.
So the class that only gets 2 skill ranks and isn't Int-based has to invest points in a specific skill to make going to town viable? It's a bad system. If this guy is supposed to be based around his pet, he shouldn't be penalized where no other pet class is.
So the class that only gets 2 skill ranks and isn't Int-based has to invest points in a specific skill to make going to town viable?
Nope. He could just not make a hideous and/or scary Eidolon. People are going to be scared out of their minds if there's a mini-Cthulu following you around. They probably won't if there's a big dog instead. Or an angel. Or a robot. Or a <insert other odd, but non-scary critter here>.
other pets are not immortal as well, nor are they as customizable, have as good a BAB. The thing is held together by contact with you. Your will and very soul binds it to a form.
He is both more versatile then common pets and frankly unkillable
Summoners have Use Magic Device as a class skill and Charisma as a casting stat. Just buy a Happy Stick.So the class that only gets 2 skill ranks and isn't Int-based has to invest points in a specific skill to make going to town viable? It's a bad system. If this guy is supposed to be based around his pet, he shouldn't be penalized where no other pet class is.
It's not a penalty, it's the nature of the beast. The Summoner is the guy who has the big freaky monster. There are cool rewards for that and there are negative consequences also. There are ways to work around the issue but it takes a bit of creativity.
I've been running a Pathfinder game for a few months now, and one of the characters is an Abyssal Sorcerer summoner. I let her trade a feat for the Rapid Summoning variant, and I honestly haven't felt that the Standard Action casting time has made her too powerful. If anything, it's been a necessity to make her matter in many combats. As the average combat only lasts a few rounds, a round-one summon spell that doesn't occur until round two, on a low init, means the summon's only getting off one or two actions in combat. The 1 round/level casting time is supposed to make summons significantly better at higher levels, but combat just doesn't last that long.
Standard Action summoning on a dedicated summoner is a great boon, and lets you not feel like you're wasting the first round of every combat.
That being said, the one minute per level duration is... wasted. Adding Cha to duration would be a big boon at low levels, but after level 4, duration rarely matters in combat. The question is: should the summoner be using his creatures much out of combat? I'd say probably not.
So... Standard action summoning is important. 1 minute per level duration is far too long for combat necessity, and just encourages the summoner to send their summoned creatures to scout ahead, search for traps, and make sandwiches... All things the rogue should be doing for you.
|
|
...just encourages the summoner to send their summoned creatures to scout ahead, search for traps, and make sandwiches... All things the rogue should be doing for you.
My rogue never makes me sammiches... POWERS BE DAMNED
~storms off to hunt the rogue~
Honestly though, I do disagree with one part; I do feel that there IS room for a summoner to make use of summons outside of combat, besides scouting. All be them situational, it just promotes 'outside the box' thinking. Stopped by a cliff-side? Summon some Pteranodons to fly the party up (higher level / handle animal) or a small air elemental to fly a rope up and tie it to something. Need the rogue to steal that amulet without the guards noticing? Look! a pack of wild dogs is causing ruckus in the streets. Little girl crying cause she scrapped her knee? Look! Free pony rides!!
ok so that last one was a bit sillier, but there are situations where it doesn't hurt to have friends.
Definitely think the armor stacking issue needed to be addressed (particularly with magical items) - kudos there. I also like the idea that an auto-Extend Spell be applied to the SLA to render it more useful at lower levels and provide some utility higher up. Spending a full-round action to summon a one-round celestial chicken just doesn't seem that useful.
I'd also like to see more flavorful options available for building the summoner itself. So far they're pretty cookie-cutter with Spell Focus - Conjuration and Augment Summoning plus UMD as a skill (all no brainers).
We're playtesting tomorrow - will provide results.
The Summoner is supposed to be a master at summoning, specifically, he can call into service a powerful "avatar" of a extra-planar creature that serves them, and that they can guide along it's evolution track.
That being said, rather than detract from the main ability of the class (the eidolon), remove the Summon Monster SLA completely.
Instead, give this a try -
First Level: Lengthened Conjurations - Add 1/2 Summoner Level + Cha Mod (minimum 1) to the duration of any conjuration (summoning) spells cast by the Summoner. This additional duration cannot be combined with or enhanced by the Extend Spell metamagic feat.
Third Level: Rapid Calling - The Summoner may summon their eidolon in 1 round rather than 1 minute.
Fifth Level: Rapid Conjuration - All conjuration (summoning) spells cast by the Summoner have their casting times reduced to the next lower casting time (1 minute and above spells become 1 round, 1 round become 1 standard action, 1 standard action spells are unchanged).
Seventh Level: Augment Summoning - As per the feat, at 13th level this feat also applies to spell completion items the Summoner may use (such as scrolls and wands).
Ninth Level: Swift Calling - The Summoner may summon their eidolon as a standard action instead of 1 round. Furthermore, the bond between the Summoner and their eidolon grows so that the Summoner may call their eidolon one additional time per day. If the eidolon was dismissed due to death, it will reappear with 1 hit point. All other damage, effects, and/or conditions will still be present on the eidolon until the duration of the effects and/or conditions end or until the eidolon is dismissed and allowed to rest until the following day, whichever comes first.
Eleventh Level: Summoning Mastery - The Summoner automatically summons a more dangerous version of the creatures that are summoned through their spells. All creatures summoned through a cast spell are considered to have the Arcane Strike feat (even if not a spell caster). This does not apply to the Summoner's eidolon.
Thirteenth Level: Extra Calling - The Summoner may call their eidolon one additional time per day. If the eidolon was dismissed due to death, it will reappear with 1 hit point. All other damage, effects, and/or conditions will still be present on the eidolon until the duration of the effects and/or conditions end or until the eidolon is dismissed and allowed to rest until the following day, whichever comes first.
Fifteenth Level: Extra Summons - When casting a Conjuration (Summoning) spell to summon a creature, you have a 50% to gain 1 additional creature of the same type or types summoned.
Seventeenth Level: Instant Calling - You may summon your eidolon as a swift action instead of a standard action.
Nineteenth Level: Unbound Calling - The pathway between the worlds no longer limits the summoning call to the eidolon. The Summoner may recall the eidolon any number of times per day. If the eidolon was dismissed due to death, it will reappear with 1 hit point. All other damage, effects, and/or conditions will still be present on the eidolon until the duration of the effects and/or conditions end or until the eidolon is dismissed and allowed to rest until the following day, whichever comes first.
To clarify my thinking on the extra eidolon summoning a day - it does not call an extra eidolon, you only get one per customer, thank you. Also, it was not meant to be a quick and easy way to get rid of all damage and conditions/effects on the eidolon. There is not a rapid ER on their home plane that patches them up completely in 6 seconds or less. You want them healed completely? Takes until the next day. You want them back fast with the Ray of Enfeeblement still making them weak, no problem. You could also potentially leave them dismissed until the effects or conditions have run their course (5 rounds for X to wear off) if you want, however, it will not remove permanent conditions (like Blindness from the spell or an item) or damage until it is the next day.
|
|
Malagfein,
The major problem with this is given the extreemly limited spell list and spell selection (only 5 or 6 spells per spell level), a build like this would pretty much force the summoner to take the summon monster spells as chosen spells on their spell list, further reducing an already limited selection.
Hmmm, perhaps further discussion should wait until people actually play test things, the fact that enough people whined to get a change made before any genuine playtesting took place irks the hell out of me to begin with but that's to be expected in the online medium I suppose.
Malagfein,
The major problem with this is given the extreemly limited spell list and spell selection (only 5 or 6 spells per spell level), a build like this would pretty much force the summoner to take the summon monster spells as chosen spells on their spell list, further reducing an already limited selection.
It would, yet, it would regain focus on their main perk - the eidolon.
Giving them the Summon Monster ability (as per the new restriction Jason posted) every other level with 3+Cha/day uses in addition to my suggestions would in my opinion make the class extremely powerful though.The only way that my suggestions might work would be to increase the spells per day to that of a sorcerer (with the limitation to 6th level, like originally planned), so they could take advantage of the abilities listed above.
Since the summon monster ability is a SLA, wouldn't it be a standard action even without the deleted sentence?
Ooooh, good point *runs off to check in his PRPG* Yep, you're right, as it didn't make a statement to the contrary the deletion of the standard action doesn't actually make the Summon Monster SLA take a whole round. See page 221 of the PRPG.
Honestly that makes me a little more happy. I'll see how it plays out in actual testing of course. Damn Sunday isn't getting here fast enough.
|
|
so your solution is to take away an ability that any summoner can use, and replace it with half abilities for your Eido, and half abilities that the summoner may not even be able to use, unless he chooses the very limited spells on his list that actully benefit from those abilities?
IMO a class ability should be able to be used out of the box. Every ability for every base class is like this. You decide on limitations based on the ability, the ability doesn't decide upon limitations for you.
so your solution is to take away an ability that any summoner can use, and replace it with half abilities for your Eido, and half abilities that the summoner may not even be able to use, unless he chooses the very limited spells on his list that actually benefit from those abilities?
IMO a class ability should be able to be used out of the box. Every ability for every base class is like this. You decide on limitations based on the ability, the ability doesn't decide upon limitations for you.
Okay, so playtest the Summoner using the new limitations set by Jason, then rerun the same scenario using the first set of rules and see if there is a noticeable difference (other than those due to dice rolls, of course).
Only thing I can think of for duration would be to make it similar to the Conjuration Specialist and give the Summoner +1/2 the Summoner level to their SLA's duration or even 1/2 Summoner lvl + Cha mod. That is at least a moderation from 1 round / level to 1 minute / level.And I do sympathize with everyone's unhappiness at the new rules. I liked the Summoner from it's released draft as well as is.
|
|
I plan to play test with Jasons amendments as that's what he's asked for. Really I don't see the need to scale back the duration when you consider the 1 SLA cap anyhow.
Given the number of uses a day if you do need to resummon in combat, odds are still good you won't run out, plus it opens up different kinds of utilitarian use of summons like I mentioned earlier.
Conjurors are good at a whole school,
Summoners are good at one aspect of that school, in that one aspect they should probably outshine a conjuror.
Hmmm, perhaps further discussion should wait until people actually play test things, the fact that enough people whined to get a change made before any genuine playtesting took place irks the hell out of me to begin with but that's to be expected in the online medium I suppose.
+1
Playtest the changes and post results.Playtest any changes that you have made seperatly and post results.
Saying this or that doesn't work without playing it isn't what Jason wants.
...deletion of the standard action doesn't actually make the Summon Monster SLA take a whole round. See page 221 of the PRPG.Yes it does
P221 prpg "1 standard action unless noted otherwise in the ability or spell description."
Summon monster spell description says Casting time: 1 round
Curses, foiled again!
I plan to play test with Jasons amendments as that's what he's asked for. Really I don't see the need to scale back the duration when you consider the 1 SLA cap anyhow.
Given the number of uses a day if you do need to resummon in combat, odds are still good you won't run out, plus it opens up different kinds of utilitarian use of summons like I mentioned earlier.
Conjurors are good at a whole school,
Summoners are good at one aspect of that school, in that one aspect they should probably outshine a conjuror.
My sentiments exactly. Summoners should rock the summoning. While the Eidolon feature is nifty and all if you're going to call something a summoner class then dammit, it better be awesome at summoning, otherwise call it something like the Eidolotron or Eidolonator or whatever. :P Either way, we play this sunday, unfortunately whenever these playtests things occur attention shifts or boards are closed or changes are made before I've a chance to get my group together. It's a touch irksome.
|
|
Anonymous 747, you DO realize that druids in Pathfinder can still have an animal companion and summon dogs each round, right? Nothing on that front has changed since 3.5. Maybe you're thinking of 3.0 animal companions.
Seriously, the summoner is already weaker and far less versatile than the druid as it is, even before the nerf.
The druid can change her spells to SNA at will, so effectively every spell she's prepared is a SNA in addition to being whatever utility or damage or healing spell she's already prepared. The summoner is a spontaneous caster, but with a far more limited list and few spells known. Both get a strong companion (the summoner's is better and more customizable), and both classes have the same HD and BAB. But the druid also has wildshape to help her be competent in melee alongside her pet, a slew of minor abilities like immunity to poison and wild empathy (free Diplomacy for animals), and eventually 7th-9th level spells that can finish a battle singlehandedly.
But instead of being compared to the druid, the summoner has gotten compared to the fighter (and the fighter still sucks unless it gets good feats, what else is new?) and the conjurer (which is better than the summoner unless it focuses entirely on summoning, at which point the conjurer is weakening himself by not taking advantage of better spells).
TLDR version: compare the summoner to the druid, not the fighter or conjurer. Druids still beat a conjurer by virtue of immense versatility and utility, nearly everything still beats a fighter unless that fighter has excellent feat chains, and the conjurer still beats the summoner at just about everything but the one thing the summoner is actually good at.