Honestly,
if all you want to do is be able to summon well using summon spells, that could be handled as a bloodline or specialist wizard. Right now, there are wizard schools, but there is nothing that says you can't have a wizard specialist who's about summoning, nor a sorcerer bloodline. I think I could whip up both versions relatively easily. I will work on it later today when I have time and put them up over at pathfinder DB and put a link up here when they are available.
The point of the Summoner class is the eidelon. If you just want to play someone who can use summon spells very very well then that can be done without a new base class, and should be done so.
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Honestly,
if all you want to do is be able to summon well using summon spells, that could be handled as a bloodline or specialist wizard. Right now, there are wizard schools, but there is nothing that says you can't have a wizard specialist who's about summoning, nor a sorcerer bloodline. I think I could whip up both versions relatively easily. I will work on it later today when I have time and put them up over at pathfinder DB and put a link up here when they are available.The point of the Summoner class is the eidelon. If you just want to play someone who can use summon spells very very well then that can be done without a new base class, and should be done so.
+1
I think people are upset because the class is built around summoning one main creature instead of a swarm of mountain lions or something.
I think people are taking to name "Summoner" to literal. Perhaps a name change more suited to the classes abilities is needed to give more of a distinction between a wizard that specializes in summoning and a class that binds specific creature for it services (i.e. Binder)?
the name will not change. And how does summoner not fit for a class that summons not only a one of a kind outsider, but also can cast summons as a SLA
Just a suggestion. The class is first and foremost geared around the Eidolon and the summoning other creatures second.
But the Eidolion is the summons, it's the mother of all summons. A permanent creature, bent to you will. It can't die, can't be banished long term. It's the ultimate expression of the summoning arts. To bind an outsider not only to your will but to your very soul
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But the Eidolion is the summons, it's the mother of all summons. A permanent creature, bent to you will. It can't die, can't be banished long term. It's the ultimate expression of the summoning arts. To bind an outsider not only to your will but to your very soul
Seeker, I believe that is one of the best statements made in favor of the Summoner I have heard so far.
+5
But the Eidolion is the summons, it's the mother of all summons. A permanent creature, bent to you will. It can't die, can't be banished long term. It's the ultimate expression of the summoning arts. To bind an outsider not only to your will but to your very soul
Hence why a suggested binder. Its binding the aspect of the same creature which returns over, and over, and over again. Its what distances the class from a wizard who just merely specializes in summoning.
Can you purchase Energy Attack (Su) multiple times?
If so, can you choose the same energy type you took previously and raise the damage by 1d6?
Thoughts?
Can you purchase Energy Attack (Su) multiple times?
If so, can you choose the same energy type you took previously and raise the damage by 1d6?
Thoughts?
Its not listed as an evolution that can be purchased more than once
People keep saying that the Summoner's pet should be equal to a PC. If that is the case then take away all spells, armor use, drop them to poor attacks and d6 hps. That way the summoner would have to use his summons and pet to keep himself alive.
A pet this powerful should only come at a huge cost.
As it is now he will just buff the pet and turn invisible. When the pet is in danger he has the option of sacrificing hps to keep it up or dismissing it and sneak off to recast it a minute later.
A pet this powerful should only come at a huge cost.
It does , 3 levels of spells and slow spell progression and a limited spells known list.
The eidolon is as good as any fighter at the table - and on top of that casts spells arguably better than sorcerers, due to available spells.
you must play at a table with some pretty bad fighters and sorcerers... how bad do you have to suck for something that gets a single spell at most three times a day to be a better caster than you?
Seriously, do the sorcerers you play with take like an 8 Chr or something?The only thing really broken is the ability to stack attacks, but that is limited by the GM. Any GM can just say "no, you can't have zabrax the tenticle beast with 15 tenticle attacks and a bite all charged with acid, that just doesn't fit in the world"
Anyone playing this as a roleplaying game should have some image in mind for their pet and thus not just be trying to break the system with spending every point on attacks.
Its no more broken than a GM allows, like the dual wielding lance fighter with spirited charge, power attack and two weapon pounce.. the system allows for it, but the GM can say no
Ouch, but +1. Don't forget the big glowing target a Summoner has on his forehead.It does , 3 levels of spells and slow spell progression and a limited spells known list.A pet this powerful should only come at a huge cost.
That is why the smart summoner wears a helmet!
It's not just for fashion anymore!
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I'm play testing a Summoner. The Eidolon is not stronger then the paladin in the group. At higher levels this might change. I made a level 20 Summoner and his Eidolon. The Eidolon is not stronger then any Figher or Barbaran that was made with some one with a brain. The Eidolon can come close to them on damage but cant keap up with them on damage. But he can't surpass them with out taken the huge enhancment. But in reality where is he going if you give him that? he is not going in to any thing smaller then a barn. So unless your games take place in open spaces only. Your not going to be taking that one. I wold realy like to see that one taken out all to geter all to geter that wold fix most of the problems. Plus if you chose the Large biped you will run in to the same problem. Becous there just to dame tall min hight is around 10ft. Huge is around 15ft tall. A large quadruped is any where from 4 to 6 ft at the shoulders. So any one that thinks there going to take there huge Eidolon in to a city or any where needer a keap unless its yours. As a DM I wold have to inform you there is no whay im going to let you do that. With out upsetting the guards and towns people. And in most dungons it wild be squeasing at best if it fit at all but ya know you can get thow and just summon it agen on the other side but only one time a day. As far as haven it be a full caster theres just no why with out removen the eidolon. Personly the Eidolon is much better then any thing you can summon. Even with the Gate spell you cant summon any thing close to what the Eidolon can do. So a full caster is point less unless you want to make a Sorcerer with the sommon monster spells. Thats a good idea any one that thinks they want a full caster as a summon. Try using summon monster thats better then casting any other spell. Thats usefull in that encounter.
I'm play testing a Summoner. The Eidolon is not stronger then the paladin in the group. At higher levels this might change. I made a level 20 Summoner and his Eidolon. The Eidolon is not stronger then any Figher or Barbaran that was made with some one with a brain. The Eidolon can come close to them on damage but cant keap up with them on damage. But he can't surpass them with out taken the huge enhancment. But in reality where is he going if you give him that? he is not going in to any thing smaller then a barn. So unless your games take place in open spaces only. Your not going to be taking that one. I wold realy like to see that one taken out all to geter all to geter that wold fix most of the problems. Plus if you chose the Large biped you will run in to the same problem. Becous there just to dame tall min hight is around 10ft. Huge is around 15ft tall. A large quadruped is any where from 4 to 6 ft at the shoulders. So any one that thinks there going to take there huge Eidolon in to a city or any where needer a keap unless its yours. As a DM I wold have to inform you there is no whay im going to let you do that. With out upsetting the guards and towns people. And in most dungons it wild be squeasing at best if it fit at all but ya know you can get thow and just summon it agen on the other side but only one time a day. As far as haven it be a full caster theres just no why with out removen the eidolon. Personly the Eidolon is much better then any thing you can summon. Even with the Gate spell you cant summon any thing close to what the Eidolon can do. So a full caster is point less unless you want to make a Sorcerer with the sommon monster spells. Thats a good idea any one that thinks they want a full caster as a summon. Try using summon monster thats better then casting any other spell. Thats usefull in that encounter.
What? I can barely read that, and what I COULD read, I could barely understand. If you're that bad at spelling, please look into using Spell Check before posting.
Honestly, that was hard to read...
Had our second fight with my summoner and eidolon.
Diving charge onto a dire lion that was trying to maul one of group, nailed it with the lance, sadly just pissed it off.
Next round it beat the dragon eidolon's initiative by 1 and literally MAULED it to pieces, would have been down to -5 HP and sent back to the great beyond. If not for the ability to share HP, my character would have been on the ground looking into a lions mouth.
Dragon's turn, bite / claw / claw. Hit with the bite, potential crit with both claws (20's on both dice). Rolled to confirm, confirmed one claw (nat 20). The lion had already taken some damage from a couple of the party members, but wouldn't run, think it might have been rabid or something. The acid on each attack did a total of 18 points (max roll), the bite did 6, the claws did a total of 6, returning the maul and ripping the lion in half.
Summoning spells didn't come into play at all in the combat.
The acid did the majority of the damage, but that is to be expected when you roll all 6's for damage.
Just realized I forgot to add in the strength to each attack, that would have been another 9 points of damage base.
Life Link saved the encounter considering the dire lion crit'd first and hardest.
Had our second fight with my summoner and eidolon.
Diving charge onto a dire lion that was trying to maul one of group, nailed it with the lance, sadly just pissed it off.
Next round it beat the dragon eidolon's initiative by 1 and literally MAULED it to pieces, would have been down to -5 HP and sent back to the great beyond. If not for the ability to share HP, my character would have been on the ground looking into a lions mouth.
Err, not to rain on your parade or anything, but you didn't use Life Link right.
Life Link only activates if your Eidolon takes enough damage to reduce it to -Con Score or lower hit points. Even the wimpiest Eidolon has 11 Con, and that's for a Small sized one so you couldn't have been riding it. You should have been on the ground and the Eidolon should have been unconscious and bleeding out (assuming it didn't have Diehard).
Had our second fight with my summoner and eidolon.
Diving charge onto a dire lion that was trying to maul one of group, nailed it with the lance, sadly just pissed it off.
Next round it beat the dragon eidolon's initiative by 1 and literally MAULED it to pieces, would have been down to -5 HP and sent back to the great beyond. If not for the ability to share HP, my character would have been on the ground looking into a lions mouth.
Err, not to rain on your parade or anything, but you didn't use Life Link right.
Life Link only activates if your Eidolon takes enough damage to reduce it to -Con Score or lower hit points. Even the wimpiest Eidolon has 11 Con, and that's for a Small sized one so you couldn't have been riding it. You should have been on the ground and the Eidolon should have been unconscious and bleeding out (assuming it didn't have Diehard).
Err, oops? I must have missed that part, thought it dispelled at 0 HP like other summons. Well ... that bites. Hmmm.
the name will not change. And how does summoner not fit for a class that summons not only a one of a kind outsider, but also can cast summons as a SLA
actually, they said summoner was the name they were least happy with
the name will not change. And how does summoner not fit for a class that summons not only a one of a kind outsider, but also can cast summons as a SLAactually, they said summoner was the name they were least happy with
But said by the time the playtest started it was set in stone. James I think said it, I could be wrong
But said by the time the playtest started it was set in stone. James I think said it, I could be wrongthe name will not change. And how does summoner not fit for a class that summons not only a one of a kind outsider, but also can cast summons as a SLAactually, they said summoner was the name they were least happy with
OK. I didn't see that. I saw them say Oracle and Inquisitor wasn't changing but not the Summoner
Err, oops? I must have missed that part, thought it dispelled at 0 HP like other summons. Well ... that bites. Hmmm.Had our second fight with my summoner and eidolon.
Diving charge onto a dire lion that was trying to maul one of group, nailed it with the lance, sadly just pissed it off.
Next round it beat the dragon eidolon's initiative by 1 and literally MAULED it to pieces, would have been down to -5 HP and sent back to the great beyond. If not for the ability to share HP, my character would have been on the ground looking into a lions mouth.
Err, not to rain on your parade or anything, but you didn't use Life Link right.
Life Link only activates if your Eidolon takes enough damage to reduce it to -Con Score or lower hit points. Even the wimpiest Eidolon has 11 Con, and that's for a Small sized one so you couldn't have been riding it. You should have been on the ground and the Eidolon should have been unconscious and bleeding out (assuming it didn't have Diehard).
I was thinking it kicked in at -1 also. This is good to know since one of my players plans to use one.
It was in paizo weekly chat. I asked about it, but he said that by this point it was set.
About the removal of the sentance that says "cast as a standard action" you have to remember, that a spell-like ability is already a standard action unless otherwise noted (it does not meantion this in the Pathfinder RPG book, but it does in the Bestiary). So what they are doing is removing extranious information, streamlinging everything, like they have done in the PRPG book in the first place.
I too think maybe a summoner's summon monster spells and spell-like abilities should have the Extend spell feat applied to them automatically.
About the removal of the sentance that says "cast as a standard action" you have to remember, that a spell-like ability is already a standard action unless otherwise noted (it does not meantion this in the Pathfinder RPG book, but it does in the Bestiary). So what they are doing is removing extranious information, streamlinging everything, like they have done in the PRPG book in the first place.
I too think maybe a summoner's summon monster spells and spell-like abilities should have the Extend spell feat applied to them automatically.
from the PRD:
"A spell-like ability has a casting time of 1 standard action unless noted otherwise in the ability or spell description. In all other ways, a spell-like ability functions just like a spell."So if the spell is listed as having a casting time of 1 round, the spell-like-ability will also have a 1 round casting time.
from the PRD:
"A spell-like ability has a casting time of 1 standard action unless noted otherwise in the ability or spell description. In all other ways, a spell-like ability functions just like a spell."So if the spell is listed as having a casting time of 1 round, the spell-like-ability will also have a 1 round casting time.
While you are correct in stating that in the 'player' section it states this (and I have found the reference (I wish they would put things like that all together!) The Bestiary/Monster section of the PRD states something completly different. THis is not the thread to question or argue it, so I will start a thread elsewhere to get a straight answer.
Mr. Fishy is a busy Fish has the Summoner been modified again yet?
Mr. Fishy thinks that the Summoner could work with a split progession like the Druid either the Summoner gets a Eidolon or Summon monster SLA with min/lvl duration and standard action casting. The class is a little weaker without a rewrite or a major power flux.
Mr. Fishy could care less about the Eidolon but the Summon Monster SLA was useful and cool Mr. Fishy had a lot of ideas for using that ability outside of combat.
Or has that sea horse been beat to death.
About the removal of the sentance that says "cast as a standard action" you have to remember, that a spell-like ability is already a standard action unless otherwise noted (it does not meantion this in the Pathfinder RPG book, but it does in the Bestiary). So what they are doing is removing extranious information, streamlinging everything, like they have done in the PRPG book in the first place.
I too think maybe a summoner's summon monster spells and spell-like abilities should have the Extend spell feat applied to them automatically.
from the PRD:
"A spell-like ability has a casting time of 1 standard action unless noted otherwise in the ability or spell description. In all other ways, a spell-like ability functions just like a spell."So if the spell is listed as having a casting time of 1 round, the spell-like-ability will also have a 1 round casting time.
This is correct, as the spell casting time is 1 round the SLA unless noted in the description of the power is also one round
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I'm going to do an npc summoner some time soon.
I think I'll change the "one summons at a time in play from the ability" to "either one spell's roster of summons OR one creature in play per point of the summoner's charisma with the summon ability." I think this is a good compromise between "letting the summoner summon stiff, for crying out loud!" and preventing the summoner from summoning 80 summon monster critters for no better reason than to confuse the dungeonmaster and give him a spastic colon.
It lets me present the summoner the way I wanted to present the dude--as a mentally unstable guy whipping up a gobs and gobs of creatures, without going too nuts.
I know the point of the playtest evolution, but this change is essentially what the aforementioned change evoked, for me anyway.
Alas,....it'll be a while before I can comment on an actual playtest. I bet the final book will be done by then, so sorry to jump the gun.
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For me, the change to the summon monster ability evoked some sad feelings, but I can get over it. I still think it should be a 1/min per level summon, but I guess that's just one more among a myriad of votes towards that way. Either way, I can't wait to see a finalized version of the class.
Also, I want to know if anyone else had the same idea when they saw the class, or if I'm just too young and weird (20) in comparison with the rest of the boards. I saw how customizable the Eidolon was, and immediately thought of a campaign where every player was a summoner and the whole world was based on a pokemon/digimon theme. Forgive me for how corny that sounds, but at the time (4am) it seemed like the idea had some merit.
For me, the change to the summon monster ability evoked some sad feelings, but I can get over it. I still think it should be a 1/min per level summon, but I guess that's just one more among a myriad of votes towards that way. Either way, I can't wait to see a finalized version of the class.
Also, I want to know if anyone else had the same idea when they saw the class, or if I'm just too young and weird (20) in comparison with the rest of the boards. I saw how customizable the Eidolon was, and immediately thought of a campaign where every player was a summoner and the whole world was based on a pokemon/digimon theme. Forgive me for how corny that sounds, but at the time (4am) it seemed like the idea had some merit.
Trust me, it holds plenty of merit!
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I thought that too; it would be just like me to jack the hell out of somebody with a tricked out Pikachu drawn by a schizophrenic with curly fangs like an oni and bleeding eyes.
The class mainly made me think of Young Kingdoms/Stormbringer rpg magic.
Man I wish that d20 Elric game didn't bite so bad.
Also, I want to know if anyone else had the same idea when they saw the class, or if I'm just too young and weird (20) in comparison with the rest of the boards. I saw how customizable the Eidolon was, and immediately thought of a campaign where every player was a summoner and the whole world was based on a pokemon/digimon theme. Forgive me for how corny that sounds, but at the time (4am) it seemed like the idea had some merit.
That was actually the first conversation my gaming buddies and I had after reading the summoner pdf...
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Having playtested at level 5 and level 10 now, I like the changes. Having a high AC actually requires an expenditure of points. You can't just pay one or two and have a PC class AC plus natural armor.
And for the summons change, I'm 100% behind it. I do not, repeat I do not want the summoner to be able to summon as a standard action. The full round casting time is exactly what it should be. I'm also fine with the one SLA ability at a time, and the round per level duration. Having seen how a summoner that uses both his eidelon and SLA in concert, round/level and standard action is well balanced and makes the summoner a good class, but not an overpowered one.
So having actually playtested the changes, I just have to say Kudos! I think that some re-jiggering of evolution point is in order, and a cap on the # of attacks the eidelon can have at low levels, but that the base class is now pretty solid. What I do not want to see is the standard action summoning come back, that was just ridiculously too powerful. And while I wouldn't mind the minute per level duration coming back, it would mean that the summoner literally never runs out of Summon SLAs if the 1 at a time limit is kept. Personally I hope these changes are all made permanent.
For me, the change to the summon monster ability evoked some sad feelings, but I can get over it. I still think it should be a 1/min per level summon, but I guess that's just one more among a myriad of votes towards that way. Either way, I can't wait to see a finalized version of the class.
Also, I want to know if anyone else had the same idea when they saw the class, or if I'm just too young and weird (20) in comparison with the rest of the boards. I saw how customizable the Eidolon was, and immediately thought of a campaign where every player was a summoner and the whole world was based on a pokemon/digimon theme. Forgive me for how corny that sounds, but at the time (4am) it seemed like the idea had some merit.
My first thought of the class when I realized how powerful big E was was of pokemon, and it made me sad
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And for the summons change, I'm 100% behind it. I do not, repeat I do not want the summoner to be able to summon as a standard action. The full round casting time is exactly what it should be. I'm also fine with the one SLA ability at a time, and the round per level duration. Having seen how a summoner that uses both his eidelon and SLA in concert, round/level and standard action is well balanced and makes the summoner a good class, but not an overpowered one.
Yeah, power to the Conjurers! Oh wait, their not Summoners, never mind...
Pathfinder realized the problem with 3.5 druids and standardized their animal companions.
Are you suggesting animal companions are balanced? Because, well, look at dogs and then wolves. (mutter)
If you just mean 'packaged more neatly' or 'it's an improvement,' then sure.
Pathfinder realized the problem with 3.5 druids and standardized their animal companions.Are you suggesting animal companions are balanced? Because, well, look at dogs and then wolves. (mutter)
If you just mean 'packaged more neatly' or 'it's an improvement,' then sure.
I have the same thoughts. They put all this time to make a nice neat package and standardized leveling, then made the different companions no where near ballanced with eachother :(
I have the same thoughts. They put all this time to make a nice neat package and standardized leveling, then made the different companions no where near ballanced with eachother :(Pathfinder realized the problem with 3.5 druids and standardized their animal companions.Are you suggesting animal companions are balanced? Because, well, look at dogs and then wolves. (mutter)
If you just mean 'packaged more neatly' or 'it's an improvement,' then sure.
Well they are, mounts are within balance of each other more or less. The dog is a mount, the wolf is not. The dog is on the list to be a mount for small paladins.
What prevents you from being a ranger riding a wolf?
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I have the same thoughts. They put all this time to make a nice neat package and standardized leveling, then made the different companions no where near ballanced with eachother :(
That's because the animal companion is not a main class features for the druid, while the Eidolon is a main class feature for the Summoner.