Both ideas (more special/scaling benefits and 'resiliency') seem great and it seems like the class definitely has room for some minor boosts.
Here's a thought to make familiars more magical without making them too unbalanced: Give them nine lives.First, I have to say that's just awesome.
Agreed! I mean, maybe it still takes the 8 hours to revive them, but just as flavor that's bad ass.
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I had this long, well-thought out response to the OP. But it got eaten.
Basically, this may be settled by addressing it from a gamist perspective and an RP perspective.
Gamist: "Oh look, familiar + caster = Witch. Geek the pet!"
RP: "Hmm, she's kinda creepy and she's cackling. I've fought a Witch before, and she seemed very protective of her animal friend. Maybe that critter's valuable. Geek the pet!"
So, which is it? Gamist? RP?
A well-run game will feature risks for any character that throws spells.
I would make it a Know: Arcana check to discern that a (witnessed) spellcaster is a Witch, and a separate one to know that Witch's familiars are so important to their spells known. (A good enough skill would make them auto-pass, and thus superfluous)
Wizards and Sorcerors have Familiars as well, that aren't as important re: spells known, and not all Witches have to use Hexes like Cackle that are more obvious differentiators.
I think eventually alot of PCs would know this stuff on auto-pass, but I wouldn't say EVERY dumb, brute fighter type would know the exact details of all spellcaster abilities and how to take advantage of them.
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Mechanically, there's really no reason to target the familiar anyway, just as there's little reason to target a bad-guys spellbook in combat, because it doesn't do *anything* to hurt them or impede their abilities in the current fight.
Ganking a witches familiar (or destroying / stealing a wizards spellbook) is only relevant when you plan on fighting that character days later. It's just a wasted action in a frantic melee, as the witch / wizard is going to be at full power for the rest of the fight anyway, unaffected by that loss.
Afterwards, their life becomes difficult, but if there is an afterwards for them, you already died and don't really care that you inconvenienced them before they killed you...
Similarly, if a DM targets the witches familiar preferentially, it's just an indicator that the NPC (or the DM!) is particularly spiteful, and not at all interested in doing something *effective* that round, as it isn't going to do a lick of good in the current battle. That sort of action only makes sense if an enemy sends agents to cripple or weaken a character before a big fight / later confrontation, which could happen to the wizard as well. Otherwise its just a wasted combat round, and particularly spiteful, like having the BBEG on the brink of death take his last action to disintegrate / Sunder the wizards arcane bond item or the Rangers expensive bow.
The advantage of the spellbook over the familiar is that the spellbook will never wander off on it's own, as the wizard will never feel the slightest urge to send his spellbook to scout or deliver a touch spell or something like that. The familiar is *far* more likely to die as a result of an encounter of this sort, so, IMO, it should not be as much of a liability.
Making the familiar an incorporeal spirit that doesn't normally die and can take on the form of a tiny or small animal for a certain amount of time / day might be a better choice here. If the animal-form is killed, the spirit is dispelled for 24 hours from the shock (meaning that the Witch is stuck with the spells she already has prepared for a time), but can be reformed / resummoned later (either on its own or as part of a ritual on the witches part, taking money and an hour or eight or whatever).
the problem might not be with targeting the familiar or accidentially getting it killed off with a stray fireball as much as the very real problem with area spells that dont use ref save...spell's like unholy blight, horrid wilting, prismatic spray, cloudkill and so on.
in my gaming grupe we recently had a battle with several fighter and 6 eneryn devils, and gues what all of the devils where using unholy blight every round thats freaking 30d8 points of dmg and its all dependeand on will save. even if the familiar makes all of its saves it still suffer 15d8 dmg(avarage 60 point pr, round) thats quit a lot even for a 14th lvl pc.
not that we had any familiars in the party but still.
so im all for a more easy way to get the familiars spells back.
Second, the summoner class gives some good ideas of other ways to make the witch's familiar more resilient: give the witch the life bond class feature, make her familiar a summoned creature, and/or give her familiar a small number of evolution points to spend on a limited list of (mostly) defensive evolutions.Actually a thought which might prove interesting would be to increase abilities granted by the familiar so that the witch gets to chose from unlike the wizard who's stuck with what is listed. In addition to the cat granting the +3 bonus on Stealth checks, it might also grant darkvision, a perception bonus, or some other aspects similiar to a cat. Granting more options for having a familiar would fit into the build design and limiting the choice to the witch would not over power it since they only get one unless a feat would be offered to take more. The special ability granted by the familiar is very similar in power to what a trait offers so bulding the options for the witch along that mentality should help keep the familiar in check.
Good idea.
I think, and after my brief playtest with witches as enemies (in a CoT campaign I'm running) that a really good fix for a lot of this would be to change the summoner HD to 6, the Witch HD to 8, and focus the class on delivering touch attacks through the pet. The familiar would need to have more HP, or better yet give the witch the summoner power to share damage with the familiar. The familiar becomes more central to the class, and provides a good way to use hexes and touch spells.
Must...have...winged...monkey!
I think it'd be cool to polymorph into the same type of creature as your familiar, at some point (level). That is pretty witchy.
And maybe you could allow a cleric cast resurrection spells into the familiar to restore any past lives it lost.Agreed! I mean, maybe it still takes the 8 hours to revive them, but just as flavor that's bad ass.Here's a thought to make familiars more magical without making them too unbalanced: Give them nine lives.First, I have to say that's just awesome.
From a flavor standpoint, I'd love it if after 8 hours the familiar's body disappears when no one is looking at it, and the familiar just wanders up to the party. Maybe the cat familiar comes out of the darkness into the ring of light around the campfire. Maybe the familiar just walks around the corner in the dungeon and joins the party/witch as though nothing unusual has happened.
I also like the idea of recharging the # of lives with a resurrection spell.
A Resurrection spell should work, but so should a Reincarnate and a good old Limited Wish--a Witch shouldn't have to suck up to a divine caster just to get their familiar back.
And it shouldn't be precisely 8 hours. Having the familiar's reappearance be something you can set your watch by can get hokey. Rather, have it be something like 2d4 hours, as it is with a first-time familiar summoning. The cat or whatever is going to take its time wandering back from the afterlife. But however it happens, it happens.
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And maybe you could allow a cleric cast resurrection spells into the familiar to restore any past lives it lost.Agreed! I mean, maybe it still takes the 8 hours to revive them, but just as flavor that's bad ass.Here's a thought to make familiars more magical without making them too unbalanced: Give them nine lives.First, I have to say that's just awesome.
From a flavor standpoint, I'd love it if after 8 hours the familiar's body disappears when no one is looking at it, and the familiar just wanders up to the party. Maybe the cat familiar comes out of the darkness into the ring of light around the campfire. Maybe the familiar just walks around the corner in the dungeon and joins the party/witch as though nothing unusual has happened.
I also like the idea of recharging the # of lives with a resurrection spell.
A Resurrection spell should work, but so should a Reincarnate and a good old Limited Wish--a Witch shouldn't have to suck up to a divine caster just to get their familiar back.
And it shouldn't be precisely 8 hours. Having the familiar's reappearance be something you can set your watch by can get hokey. Rather, have it be something like 2d4 hours, as it is with a first-time familiar summoning. The cat or whatever is going to take its time wandering back from the afterlife. But however it happens, it happens.
What about 1d4 days? Since losing your familiar should hurt. At least to some degree
I just finished a playtest session with a level 5 Witch and their familiar nearly died. A single fireball from an equal level caster dropped it right to the ground. The witch had a decent amount of hitpoints (32, with a 14 Con), so it's not like the familiar's hitpoints were exceptionally low compared to the average expected witch's familiar. The caster rolled an almost exactly average fireball (19 damage, whereas 17.5 would have been average). The familiar rolled a 9 for their save, so not *exceptionally* low, but still missed the DC of 17 by a wide margin.
I'm not seeing why the familiar went down. The witch had 32 hit points, this means the familiar had 16. The fireball dealt 19 damage, which means the familiar took 9 damage, even with failing the save because of Improved Evasion. 16 - 9 = 7hp means the familiar is still conscious. The master had 32 hit points and assuming they also rolled average for their save (getting maybe a 15?), took 19 damage, leaving them at 13 hit points.
Except for when rounding ends up making things go wrong in the player's direction, assuming that the familiar and the master make the same number of saves, they should fall unconscious at the same time from area affects. The only other exception was mentioned more recently, and that is area effects that don't allow for Reflex saves, which I will admit are bad, but also much more rare.
I agree that a variable amount of time would work best. I also agree that the loss of a familiar should hurt and be something the witch wants to avoid, so a longer duration of a several days would work best.
"Hold on everyone, we are going to have to wait 5 days to do anything since the witch just lost her familiar and won't be able to prepare spells after this. Should have just had her play a wizard since she could have just picked up her spare spell book that way."
Losing the familiar wouldn't be such an issue if it didn't mean losing the ability to prepare spells.
Even the wizard that loses his arcane bonded object has a chance to cast spells without it. A fighter without his armor can still swing his sword.
This would be akin to dropping a paladin off lawful good for the effect it would have on the witch being able to continue meaningfully in an adventure.
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I agree that a variable amount of time would work best. I also agree that the loss of a familiar should hurt and be something the witch wants to avoid, so a longer duration of a several days would work best."Hold on everyone, we are going to have to wait 5 days to do anything since the witch just lost her familiar and won't be able to prepare spells after this. Should have just had her play a wizard since she could have just picked up her spare spell book that way."
Losing the familiar wouldn't be such an issue if it didn't mean losing the ability to prepare spells.
Even the wizard that loses his arcane bonded object has a chance to cast spells without it. A fighter without his armor can still swing his sword.
This would be akin to dropping a paladin off lawful good for the effect it would have on the witch being able to continue meaningfully in an adventure.
You don't just lose the ability to prepare spells. You lose all of the spells your familiar has gleaned from other familiars. All you recover are the spell choices you made for you auto learned spells at each level.
You don't just lose the ability to prepare spells. You lose all of the spells your familiar has gleaned from other familiars. All you recover are the spell choices you made for you auto learned spells at each level.
...As well as the bonus Familiar spells for your new choice.
But I'm actually enamored of the idea somebody (?) mentioned, for the flavorful "nine lives" option ('9 lives' to reincarnate/whatever with the same learned spells). It could be limited as one reincarnate/whatever per level, and the '9 lives' bit would limit it to just under 1 per 2 levels over a 20-level lifetime. It doesn't even need to be free, either.
...OR just something like the Summoner with Lifelink/lifebond (probably 1 way in this case).
(effectively transferring HPs 1:1 to negate damage that would kill).
This could even be CALLED '9 Lives' (as opposed to Lifelink) even though it would just reference/duplicate the Life Link rules, just for more "Witch-y" flavor (nevermind the fact it could technically result in more than '9 lives').
If this has been mentioned, my apologies, but once these threads get too long, it's tedious to spend hours reading through them, no offense to anybody...
Anyhow, I like the concept of the witch, although I would like to see a few druid spells in her spell list (I always thought they were more a cross between druids and sorcerors, myself). I do have a slight problem with the hexes as most of them tend to be more malignant, which brings up alignment issues for good witches, and I would like to see a few more options added in general for good/evil variants, but this concerns the familiar, so...
I agree that the familiar being the focus of all the witches spells DOES make for good flavor, but is also crippling should the familiar die as she loses at least half her power, possibly more since her spell list lacks the "punch" of the wizard or sorcerer. Someone mentioned a concept that I'd like to expand on: instead of making the familiar an enhanced animal, have it be a summoned spirit that uses the animal as a host. Since the witch gets her power from an otherworldy source anyways, it also makes a kind of sense for her to offer up this beast as a host vessel for that source, a conduit for this otherworldy being to reside in the material world if you will. Slaying the familiar therefore would inhibit the witch, but not cripple her, as she would be able to get her familiar back after a period of time in a manner similar to a druid gaining a new animal companion or a wizard gaining a new familiar. Have her spend 8 or 24 hours performing a summoning ritual burning incense and oils equal to 100 gp per class level, but she must also provide a new host animal for the familiar's spirit to inhabit. As for the "new familiar begins play with X spells" rule, I'd say get rid of that; while the host body would be new, the spirit would be the same as before.
I'm strongly in the flavor camp here as well, being the one that suggested the "nine lives" solution to begin with, and I'll also second the suggestion of "the very next day" as being a perfectly flavorful solution for the time interval.
Want kitty back sooner? Have the cleric blow a Raise Dead, or throw a Limited Wish yourself. You pay extra for expedited service, and it doesn't count against kitty's lives. But on its own, the cat will come back the very next day eight times for nine lives total.
If this has been mentioned, my apologies, but once these threads get too long, it's tedious to spend hours reading through them, no offense to anybody...
Anyhow, I like the concept of the witch, although I would like to see a few druid spells in her spell list (I always thought they were more a cross between druids and sorcerors, myself). I do have a slight problem with the hexes as most of them tend to be more malignant, which brings up alignment issues for good witches, and I would like to see a few more options added in general for good/evil variants, but this concerns the familiar, so...
I agree that the familiar being the focus of all the witches spells DOES make for good flavor, but is also crippling should the familiar die as she loses at least half her power, possibly more since her spell list lacks the "punch" of the wizard or sorcerer. Someone mentioned a concept that I'd like to expand on: instead of making the familiar an enhanced animal, have it be a summoned spirit that uses the animal as a host. Since the witch gets her power from an otherworldy source anyways, it also makes a kind of sense for her to offer up this beast as a host vessel for that source, a conduit for this otherworldy being to reside in the material world if you will. Slaying the familiar therefore would inhibit the witch, but not cripple her, as she would be able to get her familiar back after a period of time in a manner similar to a druid gaining a new animal companion or a wizard gaining a new familiar. Have her spend 8 or 24 hours performing a summoning ritual burning incense and oils equal to 100 gp per class level, but she must also provide a new host animal for the familiar's spirit to inhabit. As for the "new familiar begins play with X spells" rule, I'd say get rid of that; while the host body would be new, the spirit would be the same as before.
That's fine if you like the flavor of a familiar being an otherworldly spirit possessing a mortal shell, but if you prefer the flavor of the familiar being a magical beast in its own right who can come back from death if it feels like it, it isn't so much.
Personally, stuffing imps into innocent toads sounds more goetic than witchy, and while that's fine flavor for the cackling Satanic biddy, it doesn't work for a white witch. Offering up a dumb hamster for even the most angelic possession is still offering an innocent creature up for possession, which breaks the Wiccan Rede: "An Ye Harm None, Do What Ye Will."
And even if you use Speak with Animals beforehand and talk the hamster into it (which should be pretty easy, given the witch's relative diplomacy check and the hamster's inability to understand the idea of a soul, let alone the theological implications of being possessed by extraplanar beings), any DM worth their salt would still rule that as a less-than-lily-white act.
Just to be clear:
I'm not arguing against the witch's familiar having multiple lives or something else to help with the lost of the spell book -- I was against the multiple days wait to get the familiar back. That would lead to an largely unnecessary delay in game while the witch gets the familiar back.
The familiar and spell lost while bad is slightly mitigated by the fact the wizard must spend coin to create extra spell books... the witch will at least gain some spells back with the familiar instead of having to buy everything back with the new book... the wizard does however have access to spell mastery which means he does have a choice of not being without spells to prepare if he chooses too. Currently the witch does not have this option, though spell mastery might be a good thing for the witch to have access to as well.
Familiar Bonus Spells:
I think this is an interesting idea but it's current implementation is a bit flat. Mechanically it 'feels' no different then say getting a spell from someone else's familiar,* getting the two from gaining a level, or even finding a scroll. That is, other than the fact they offer spells not on the core list.
There is nothing right now to prevent a witch from NEVER memorizing any of the familiars spells. I feel it may make the relationship more organic if they were 'true' bonus spells. Similar to Domain spells for Clerics.
For Example:
A 2nd level Witch with a Bat Familiar and an 18 Int could cast 3 first level spells (2 for second level and 1 from Int) -in addition- to feather fall once per day they'd get for free. So, in essence, 4 spells per day one of which is pre-determined by your Familiar. At 4th they'd get that bonus spell (as well as the 2nd level one) and so on.
This is no different, really, than the bonus spells specialist Wizards receive, except it is a level behind and it is 'A' specific spell at each interval.
*There should be something put in there preventing other familiars from learning 'familiar-specific' spells as well. So say a Cat shouldn't be able to learn the Bat-Specific spells. I assume that's the intent, anyhoo.
Unique Cat-familiar spells are not on the spell lists of Bat-familiar Witches, thus can't be shared/learned.
I kind of like the pseudo-Domain Bonus spell approach, though if implemented 100% like Domains it takes away the option of memorizing multiple slots with said spell. Without that limitation (i.e. fixed Bonus Spell, but also actually adding it to spell list), it totally seems like a great option, and one that seems 'juuust right' in terms of class power balance.
Along a similar line as the other worldly spirit possessing an animal thing, someone mentioned earlier about the animal simply being a spirit's manifestation on the material plane. I like that idea, it removes the "evil" connotation of a creature forcefully controlling an innocent animal while still giving the familiar the otherworldly feeling and explanation as to why they dissapear and come back.
I think that the cost of re-summoning the familiar is harsh enough. Making them come back with less spells is nearly a slap in the face. Other than losing the spells when the familiar dies and comes back, I rather like the mechanic.
And I don't think it can be stressed enough, losing the familiar in a combat doesn't instantly make the witch horribly weakened. The spells are still prepared, they don't lose them, it just makes it take slightly longer to prepare them the next time. Which is a perfectly reasonable consequence of letting your beloved magical companion come to harm.
Thinking about it, I think the reason they included the spell loss for familiar death is because technically it is possible for a wizard to basically need to restart their spellbook as well. For wizards it is even harder, if they lose their spellbook the only thing they can possible do is quickly scribe the spells that they still have prepared and then start from scratch. In that respect, Witches are getting off easy. But as has already been discussed, Wizards losing their spellbooks is not something that comes up hardly ever, and it still isn't a living breathing target.
The whole "9 lives" idea is very flavorful for a cat, but does it really fit for a goat? a toad? a raven? a fox? an octopus?
Not to mention the mechanics problem of on life 8 it's back to keeping the familiar locked safely in the china cabinet when not preparing spells.
Flavor wise I like the familiar is a spirit in the form of an animal. If having the spirit taking over an existing animal is not "white witch" enough then how about the body being a manifestation in the form of an animal, the type of animal being chosen by the spirit. So long as you keep the same type/animal familiar it always comes back with the same spells because you keep the same spirit. Change type and you start over from scratch because it's a different spirit.
Well, since cats are the most classic familiars, the "nine lives" might just be the stuff that the lay public has figured out. There aren't enough witches with octopi for the great unwashed to figure out those have nine lives too, at least when hanging out with a witch.
If a familiar is on life 8, you've probably been pretty careless with it before that point. And as I said in the original posting, you could do a Limited Wish by that point to get nine more lives for the familiar. Kind of like getting extra regenerations for a Time Lord.
Having the body being a manifestation of the spirit is fine and perfectly good metaphysics for certain cosmologies. But I don't think it should be hard-and-fast if that's not the way someone conceives of things.
An imp possessing an ordinary toad, a magically intelligent toad, and a spirit who has made its ectoplasmic body physically manifest in the form of a toad are all perfectly legitimate familiars, but I think it should be up to the GM and the player which variant they personally want for their character and their game.
Having the body being a manifestation of the spirit is fine and perfectly good metaphysics for certain cosmologies. But I don't think it should be hard-and-fast if that's not the way someone conceives of things.
An imp possessing an ordinary toad, a magically intelligent toad, and a spirit who has made its ectoplasmic body physically manifest in the form of a toad are all perfectly legitimate familiars, but I think it should be up to the GM and the player which variant they personally want for their character and their game.
I would agree, I don't think it should necessarily be something that is set in stone. But then again, I also think that Wizard Familiars should be the same way. There are multiple "theories" as to where familiars come from, are they summoned, created, or simply house pets that the wizard "bonds" with, all viable options.
I'm a bit leery of the "nine lives" idea; it just strikes me as something that was thought up quickly and without much thought. No offense to whomever originally suggested it, but it’s basically just running with the "cats have nine lives" trope to an extended degree. Using it would also introduce a completely new and unfounded mechanic, and one that seems wholly unnecessary. The Witch performs a small ritual, burning some incense and other materials and *poof* the familiar is back, same as the wizard, nothing too complicated.
I had posted this idea in another thread, but this seems like as good a place to repeat it as any.
I had hoped that the familiar would be a little more in keeping with folklore.
In other words, something more along the line of an outsider, that took the form of an animal while on this plane instructing the Witch.
That way, if the familiar was "killed" it would actually just be banished back to it's own realm until a pre-set amount of time had elapsed, and could then re-manifest to further assist the witch.
In addition, it could a limited number of times appear in its true form, be it a small demon, or a hunky seventeen year old, or maybe something so horrid it was beyond description....depending on just what kind of entity you wanted teaching your witch.
I had posted this idea in another thread, but this seems like as good a place to repeat it as any.
I had hoped that the familiar would be a little more in keeping with folklore.
In other words, something more along the line of an outsider, that took the form of an animal while on this plane instructing the Witch.
That way, if the familiar was "killed" it would actually just be banished back to it's own realm until a pre-set amount of time had elapsed, and could then re-manifest to further assist the witch.
In addition, it could a limited number of times appear in its true form, be it a small demon, or a hunky seventeen year old, or maybe something so horrid it was beyond description....depending on just what kind of entity you wanted teaching your witch.
That kind of goes with the idea I mentioned earlier, I like it. But the only problem is that it would require a slight revamping of the way the familiar provides the bonus spells. If it were an other-worldly creature the way you suggest, bonus spells known would more than likely be based on that aspect of the familiar, rather than the animal form that it took.
I just noticed the other day that spells like Alter Self, Beastshape, Elemental Body, Form of the Dragon, Giant Form, Transformation, Iron Body, and even Shapechange can all be cast on the familiar...
How about a class feature that gave the witch bonus spells (or spell like abilities) that can only be cast on the familiar?
As for the death thing, I can imagine familiars should be like vampires and assume Gaseous Form until they spend a day resting with their master or something. The death of a familiar should not cause the witch to totally lose their "spellbook", it should just be a minor penalty. I guess having it be the same as the wizard makes the most sense in terms of rules consistency, but that keeps the familiar a forgotten NPC.
The 9 Lives discussion reminded me of a classic witch - Gargamel and his familiar Azrael!
Having the body being a manifestation of the spirit is fine and perfectly good metaphysics for certain cosmologies. But I don't think it should be hard-and-fast if that's not the way someone conceives of things.
An imp possessing an ordinary toad, a magically intelligent toad, and a spirit who has made its ectoplasmic body physically manifest in the form of a toad are all perfectly legitimate familiars, but I think it should be up to the GM and the player which variant they personally want for their character and their game.
I would agree, I don't think it should necessarily be something that is set in stone. But then again, I also think that Wizard Familiars should be the same way. There are multiple "theories" as to where familiars come from, are they summoned, created, or simply house pets that the wizard "bonds" with, all viable options.
I'm a bit leery of the "nine lives" idea; it just strikes me as something that was thought up quickly and without much thought. No offense to whomever originally suggested it, but it’s basically just running with the "cats have nine lives" trope to an extended degree. Using it would also introduce a completely new and unfounded mechanic, and one that seems wholly unnecessary. The Witch performs a small ritual, burning some incense and other materials and *poof* the familiar is back, same as the wizard, nothing too complicated.
Well, speaking as the person who came up with it (and who does write game mechanics), the "nine lives" mechanic is less complicated than the current scenario you portray as "nothing too complicated."
The current situation requires:
1. Time to do a ritual
2. A charcoal brazier or similar fire source.
3. Hundreds of GP of highly specialized incense which requires a trip to MageMart unless the witch pre-invested in specialized "Summon Your Familiar!" incense gift packs just in case Fluffy got gacked while out in the field.
Shoot Fluffy and toss the witch naked in a jail or on the shore of a desert island (where there is no handy MageMart) and she's going to be a lot more grateful for a familiar who just comes back if it's killed without complicated financial outlay.
Limiting it to 9 times is not just flavor but something to keep the witch from depending on it too much.
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Having the body being a manifestation of the spirit is fine and perfectly good metaphysics for certain cosmologies. But I don't think it should be hard-and-fast if that's not the way someone conceives of things.
An imp possessing an ordinary toad, a magically intelligent toad, and a spirit who has made its ectoplasmic body physically manifest in the form of a toad are all perfectly legitimate familiars, but I think it should be up to the GM and the player which variant they personally want for their character and their game.
I would agree, I don't think it should necessarily be something that is set in stone. But then again, I also think that Wizard Familiars should be the same way. There are multiple "theories" as to where familiars come from, are they summoned, created, or simply house pets that the wizard "bonds" with, all viable options.
I'm a bit leery of the "nine lives" idea; it just strikes me as something that was thought up quickly and without much thought. No offense to whomever originally suggested it, but it’s basically just running with the "cats have nine lives" trope to an extended degree. Using it would also introduce a completely new and unfounded mechanic, and one that seems wholly unnecessary. The Witch performs a small ritual, burning some incense and other materials and *poof* the familiar is back, same as the wizard, nothing too complicated.
Well, speaking as the person who came up with it (and who does write game mechanics), the "nine lives" mechanic is less complicated than the current scenario you portray as "nothing too complicated."
The current situation requires:
1. Time to do a ritual
2. A charcoal brazier or similar fire source.
3. Hundreds of GP of highly specialized incense which requires a trip to MageMart unless the witch pre-invested in specialized "Summon Your Familiar!" incense gift packs just in case Fluffy got gacked while out in the field.
Shoot Fluffy and toss the witch...
None of these are the issue for me, the biggest issue I see is the part where if the familiar dies you lose anything extra you taught it beyond the 2 spells per level + bonus spells. If we assume for a moment that regardless of how the familiar comes back, it comes back with ALL its spells not just the base ones.
In this case, the familiar is actually a little bit more robust then a spellbook. By raw, you can summon your familiar with a level dependent cost ritual, but you can get it back. If a wizard didn't prepare a second spellbook, then he is screwed. If the wizard did prepare a second spell book he has likely stowed it not on his person (until he has access to something like secret chest.) So if a wizard does lose his spell book he has to go back to town, which is probably an equally disruptive to the adventure time line as the witch re-summoning. The wizard also has to expend that investment in advance (although it is less then a witches re-summon ritual until about level 18 (going with 10 level 0, 10 level 1, and 4 of each level above level 1 spells, which is an underestimate of most wizards books.)
Now, from a much less expensive but equally time consuming perspective, if a priest looses his holy symbol, or a druid runs out of holly then boom there goes their casting until they resupply.
So if the ritual was replaced with a mechanism where your familiar comes back, 1d4 days would be reasonable given the other precedent, especially if you discard the add ritual cost (which maybe is reserved for transforming your familiar into a different creature type or for improved familiar.)
As for the nine lives, I'm would be disinclined to put a cap on it as it really sucks when your down to your familiars last life. Perhaps 1d3 days + 1 per previous death. Just to discourage people from throwing their familiars to their deaths.
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the wizard does however have access to spell mastery which means he does have a choice of not being without spells to prepare if he chooses too. Currently the witch does not have this option, though spell mastery might be a good thing for the witch to have access to as well.
Why wouldn't a witch have access to spell mastery? I suppose the wording doesn't quiet mesh as spell mastery says
You have mastered a small handful of spells, and can prepare these spells without referencing your spellbooks at all.
and the witch says they need to commune with the familiar to prepare their spells. But if the familiar is "teaching her magic" as opposed to "channeling its magic through her" then spell mastery, at least in principle seems fair. The witch has truely mastered those spells, familiar or not.
Well, speaking as the person who came up with it (and who does write game mechanics), the "nine lives" mechanic is less complicated than the current scenario you portray as "nothing too complicated."
The current situation requires:
1. Time to do a ritual
2. A charcoal brazier or similar fire source.
3. Hundreds of GP of highly specialized incense which requires a trip to MageMart unless the witch pre-invested in specialized "Summon Your Familiar!" incense gift packs just in case Fluffy got gacked while out in the field.
Shoot Fluffy and toss the witch naked in a jail or on the shore of a desert island (where there is no handy MageMart) and she's going to be a lot more grateful for a familiar who just comes back if it's killed without complicated financial outlay.
Limiting it to 9 times is not just flavor but something to keep the witch from depending on it too much.
The boards ate my post earlier, so I apologize if I'm not quite as eloquent as I would have been :/
The first thing that comes to mind is that if you have a witch and a wizard that are each thrown in jail after having their familiar killed and all their gear taken away, then both of them are equally in the hole in terms of getting their spells back. Except when the witch gets out of jail and manages to scrounge the cash for her familiar, then she has spells. While the Wizard has to start from scratch and rescribe all new spells into a new spellbook.
If you compare the two familiars between the two classes, I think it makes sense the way the did it.
Wait Time before Ritual: Wizard - 1 week, Witch - 1 day; The Witch needs her familiar back sooner, it's how she prepares spells.
Ritual Cost: Wizard - 200 gp/level, Witch - 500 gp/level; The Witch's familiar is more important and therefore costs more.
Ritual Time: Both - 8 hours; That seems like a fairly standard time, you spend 8 hours a day making items, or other daily activities, its basically just saying you devote your day to getting your familiar back...
I thought up an interesting way for the Witch to retain her spells while still including possible loss of spells. I understand their interest in removing some spells, it needs to be comparable to the other prepared arcane caster. If a wizard loses their spellbook they start over, but a Witch has a step up there...
The idea I had is as follows:
When a familiar comes back after the ritual, the Witch makes a Spellcraft check for each spell level they are able to cast, DC 10 (or 15?) + double spell level. With failure, the familiar loses one spell known from that level. If the Witch fails by 5 or more, the familiar forgets an additional spell for each 5 by which the check fails (minimum 1 [or 2?] spells remaining for each spell level).
This would result in possible loss of spells, but not an automatic one, the lower spell levels are more likely to retain spells as they have been known longer and are simpler. I think this would basically represent the Witch's ability to ease the familiar back to life during the ritual.
The boards ate my post earlier, so I apologize if I'm not quite as eloquent as I would have been :/
The first thing that comes to mind is that if you have a witch and a wizard that are each thrown in jail after having their familiar killed and all their gear taken away, then both of them are equally in the hole in terms of getting their spells back. Except when the witch gets out of jail and manages to scrounge the cash for her familiar, then she has spells. While the Wizard has to start from scratch and rescribe all new spells into a new spellbook.
If you compare the two familiars between the two classes, I think it makes sense the way the did it.
Wait Time before Ritual: Wizard - 1 week, Witch - 1 day; The Witch needs her familiar back sooner, it's how she prepares spells.
Ritual Cost: Wizard - 200 gp/level, Witch - 500 gp/level; The Witch's familiar is more important and therefore costs more.
Ritual Time: Both - 8 hours; That seems like a fairly standard time, you spend 8 hours a day making items, or other daily activities, its basically just saying you devote your day to getting...
The trouble you're missing is that if you make the witch's mechanics more like the wizard's, you also make the witch's flavor more like the wizard's.
Consider that the wizard is basically the arcane scientist: He needs his books, he needs his inks, he needs assorted alchemical grot and whatnot, and he needs access to either a thriving state level society with multiple apothecaries, booksellers, libraries and universities, or else a supremely well-stocked wizards tower out in the hinterlands which is basically a magical survivalist's bunker for the upcoming magical apocalypse. Taxing the wizard gold to replace his familiar or replace his spellbook or both is fine because the wizard is a child of the city and going down to MageMart is an expected part of his class routine, even if you call it something more classy. It's still MageMart.
The witch? You want 500 GP per level rather than 200 GP for a wizard? Okay, you've now priced the class out of the range of all the grannies, herb wives, witchy village lasses and in fact everyone except exceptionally well-heeled noblewomen and merchant's wives, and even then their families would likely be shocked at the expense. You want HOW MUCH to buy INCENSE so you can summon a NEW CAT? WTF?
And where is the granny living in the woods going to buy 500 GP worth of incense PER LEVEL to replace her dead cat? Does she even own anything worth 500 GP? Would it work if she set fire to her gingerbread house?
Yes, I know, we're supposed to be playing adventurers here, and lavish sums of wealth are a common thing, but having the witches have to hit MageMart even more than the wizards makes them even more citified which is flat-out bad for the flavor of the class.
Giving the witch a different means to get and replace her familiar also helps to differentiate her from the wizard.
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As currently written, a wizard replacing a spellbook, can only scribe the spells they have currently prepared or that they currently have scrolls for (or copied from another spellbook). They get no free spells.
Additionally, as currently written, when a witch teaches their familiar a spell from a scroll, if the spellcraft check fails, the scroll is destroyed, but they can try again with a new scroll. A wizard cannot attempt to learn or copy that spell again until he gains another rank in Spellcraft if they fail the spellcraft check but the failed check does not cause the spell to vanish from the scroll.
A wizard has the option of making a back up copy of his spell book with no chance of fail at a very reasonable price in advance. So that if a wizard loses the first one, he still has the second one (often kept in a secret chest, lair, tower, etc)
The numbers I worked out was that it wasn't until a wizard got up in to level 9 spells that the cost of replacing the spellbook was more then the cost of replacing just the familiar not the secondary spells the familiar knows.
It is also substantially likely that both the wizard and the witch will use the wealth they accumulate to pack their respective spell containers full, again the wizards backup can be maintained at a reasonable price, and the witches cannot. The best she can do is take a feat (scribe scroll) and create scrolls (which cost more then the cost of wizard scribing) and make multiple copies of those scrolls to protect against failure. Then, and only then is she backed up to the level a wizard can do for a fraction of the cost. Add back in the cost of resummoning the familiar and the witch might as well hang up her pointy hat and stick to growing herbs
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Perhaps there should be a Hex to recall a familiar. Or perhaps a ritual done in advance to bring a familiar back, therefor the the backup is done in advance like the Wizard has a backup spellbook.
Personally I like the idea of a Hex to bring back the Familiar. It would change up a quite a bit of thier combat options. Touch spells would be used much more often. If they then take the Improved Familiar feat and it would be much easier to explain how the familiar changes from one thing to the other.
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Perhaps there should be a Hex to recall a familiar. Or perhaps a ritual done in advance to bring a familiar back, therefor the the backup is done in advance like the Wizard has a backup spellbook.
Personally I like the idea of a Hex to bring back the Familiar. It would change up a quite a bit of thier combat options. Touch spells would be used much more often. If they then take the Improved Familiar feat and it would be much easier to explain how the familiar changes from one thing to the other.
But if you made it a hex, it would be a hex tax, all witch's would take it or be crippled?
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Wouldn't the cost of replacing a familiar using spell scrolls encourage witches to act in groups (lets call them covens) and have their familiars teach the spells they know to the familiars of the other witches. That way, if their familiar buys the farm, they can just have their new familiar learn all of the old spells the knew from the familiar of another witch in the coven. If they have certain spells that they do not want to share with the other coven members, they always have the option scribing scrolls with that knowledge.
Covens are great for flavour and NPCs and probably don't work in a balanced party?