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So I do see, everyone was focused on the if the thalmaterge is the source but I was also wondering about if only one of the images is in an area of benefit like cover or a paladin's aura, or something similar. Also again, with the effect of if the enemy is within the paladin's aura, and one of your images is in the palatans. Aura, can you still get the champions damage reduction and possibly attack. If they have ranged retribution

No one knows.

T.T

Mirror implement states that

"any effects you generate come from only one of your positions"

How does that interact with auras? are they an "effect that you generate"? if so, how do you determine which copy is generating the aura at any given time? Or are auras not covered by this and you jsut get double auras?

I would also like a response to this on going the other way. Can I project my image inside the champion aura to get the buff? Does it the trigger champion reactions if the attacker was in the aura my image was in the aura but the attack me 15 ft away? If I am in cover and my image is hit, do I still get cover?

touching the ground seems a rough requirement

On forcing the stance to end, I'd say:

jump- yes
running- no
shoved- no
thrown- probably yes, but I'm not sure where the rules for throwing creatures are

ladders- yes
stairs- yes
roof- yes
(well, mostly yes for those three. if they're features on natural terrain- stairs carved into rock, a rope ladder along a cliff wall, then no)

also
being carried (and riding), yes

Its a stance that's going to be more problematic at higher levels, as more esoteric effects and terrain happen.

I'm glad this has been officially clarified because these restrictions make the stance prohibitive. What the difference between a roof and a wood floor or second floor of a castle or even first floor of an underground dungeon. I see the intent that the person needs to be on the ground not specifically touching the earth's crust because it's otherwise a headache and males little sense thematically or mechanically.

Maybe i'm just a little traumatized by g m's weighing heavily in one direction despite what flavor text reads. I just wanted it to definitively.Say one way or the other.Instead of hinting, because I've had some real surprise g.M rulings in the past

Traits I'm looking at

Plant
Vegetable creatures have the plant trait. They are distinct from normal plants. Magical effects with this trait manipulate or conjure plants or plant matter in some way. Effects that manipulate plants have no effect in an area with no plants.

Wood
Effects with the wood trait conjure or manipulate wood. Those that manipulate wood have no effect in an area without wood. Creatures with this trait consist primarily of wood or have a connection to magical wood.

Manipulate

You must physically manipulate an item or make gestures to use an action with this trait. Creatures without a suitable appendage can’t perform actions with this trait. Manipulate actions often trigger reactions.

Each has a portion that either states I'm manipulating something or if the material doesn't exist the spell fails

How are any of the traits would require that?

Attack: This just means this contains an attack roll that use and add MAP.
Cantrip: It's a cantrip.
Concentrate: was previously included in "verbal" component. Now simply means you can't do it while raging.
Manipulate: Was previously included in the "somatic" component. Simply means that you need to be able to freely move. You hold it and direct it physically, or your hands need to be able to "direct" it with precises arm movements or hand signs. (You don't need free hands, but they need to not be tied.)
Plant: You are conjuring plant stuff. So yeah. Making this a plant effect.
Wood: You are conjuring plant stuff from the elemental plane of wood. Making this a "Wood" elemental effect.

Nothing in the traits would tell you you need a vine to exist upfront.

When I opened it on path builder plant wood and manipulate all indicate that they may apply to a material that is required to be present.

The basic description of the spell says it conjures a vine from nothing but the traits indicate that it requires a vine to already be an existence.

Does anybody have any input on which direction this should actually be?

I am so terribly sorry.If this has already been asked but I have looked all over and I can't find anything other than people trying to do.Spell strikes on themselves et cetera.

Can I use discern secrets on myself, because it has a target of one creature? This seems like it should be straightforward but, I can't find a straightforward answer. I just want that tasty bonus to my skill check Since my character is the one in our group who has all the lore skills?

The way I am taking to understanding.This is when you cast the spell.It creates a trigger free action for a single Skill check and then a bonus as long as you sustain the spell. This seems like it would be fantastic to cast on myself.

Your patron deigns to whisper a few secrets. The target can Recall Knowledge, Seek, or Sense Motive as a free action. The target gains a +1 status bonus to the statistic used for the roll (a skill or Perception) on the roll and as long as you Sustain the spell. The target is temporarily immune to discern secrets for 1 minute.

Comparing the 2 mathematically. If you add additional weapon dice and additional rune dice,the math progresses towards a wider and wider split. Although at top level it is only two dice difference from just doing two attacks. However , if you don't add additional rune dice , you find that the math stays stable at consistently one Dice below just attacking twice. This means that the choice to power attack is consistently a 1 dice and 1/2 str weaker choice , but has a higher chance to hit because of no map.

Greatsword 1d12
Rune 1d12

<lvl 10 & basic rune 18 str

PA add both rune and weapon
2 sword dice 2 rune dice + str
4d12+4 avg damage 30

PA with just a weapon dice
2 sword dice 1 rune dice
3d12+4 avg damage 23.5

2 attacks 1 sword dice 1 rune dice +str x2
4d12+8 avg damage 34

Lvl12 -17 and mid level rune 18 str

PA 3 sword dice 4 rune dice + str
7d12+4 avg 49.5

PA with just a weapon dice
3 sword dice 2 rune dice
5d12+4 avg 36.5

2 attacks 1 sword dice 2 rune dice +str x2
6d12+8 avg 47

>lvl18 & max level rune 20 str

PA 4 sword dice + 6 rune dice
10d12+5 avg 70

PA with just a weapon dice
4 sword dice 3 rune dice
7d12+5 avg 50.5

2 attacks 1 sword dice 3 rune dice +str x2
8d12+10 avg 68.5

So weird add on to this. If your warrior muse and these new spells don't give focus points. There are very few focus point gaining powers in bard.

The rules are:

-Unarmored
-Touching ground
-Strikes are limited to Falling Stone

So...
1. Grapple is fine; Strikes are limited to one type, but other attacks and actions work as usual.
2. Ditto.
3. Cannot throw a dart as it's not a Falling Stone Strike, so "throwing a dart" does not occur. And yes, that's quite restrictive, but it's also likely Dex hasn't been raised. It's a hole in their offense to pay for their great defense. Cantrips are one way around this among others.
4. No issues, assuming no Strikes are involved other than Falling Stone, that it doesn't armor them up or make them leave the ground, and no Stances are activated (which would swap old for new).
5. Dang, how restrictive do you think this is? The monk's hands haven't been turned into actual stones!

So "throwing a dart" is the only one which typically conflicts, and it cannot end the Stance since it cannot be done.

I comprehend now. It just turns strike into falling stone not makes only strikes legal. I am used to figuring out all the pitfalls before hand to make sure I'm not messing things up. Thanks

So i have seen lots of discussion on leaving the ground canceling mountain stance but, what about maneuvers? If I trip grapple disarm etc do ublose the stance?

Stance questions. What ends the stance?
1 grapple
2 trip
3 throw dart
4 using a ki spell that isn't ki strike
5 using a manipulate action

It seems to be accidentally insanely restrictive. I get its good but this makes so many monk options just impossible

Until something else takes control of them, yes it is permanent. It worked similarly in D&D v3.5.

question. I know the feat implies this but I have the kind of GM who wants proof. Do you know of any place that states specifically as errata or an official rule that this is the case??

I looked at the control undead feat and it doesn't list a duration other than it works as the spell control undead. The spell control undead works minutes per level though so why even list that intelligent undead get a save every day.

So it raises the question is the feat control undead permanent??

I had this long, well-thought out response to the OP. But it got eaten.

Basically, this may be settled by addressing it from a gamist perspective and an RP perspective.

Gamist: "Oh look, familiar + caster = Witch. Geek the pet!"

RP: "Hmm, she's kinda creepy and she's cackling. I've fought a Witch before, and she seemed very protective of her animal friend. Maybe that critter's valuable. Geek the pet!"

So, which is it? Gamist? RP?

A well-run game will feature risks for any character that throws spells.

All i have to say is bard. The game I was running the bard let me keep no secrets. That take 20 once per day on a knowledge check is HUGELY beneficial to a party when it comes to things you are fighting. On that note Unless your using familiar pocket the big danger comes from constant vulnerability to aoe spells especially later to things like cloud kill where evasion isnt so helpful. Also if your higher level and off the material plane that adds a whole new loop to getting a new familiar. Your in the nine hells trapped with no way back to the material plane and your pet just got aoe killed? I hope you get unstuck in the nine hells before the day is over.

However another poster is correct you don't need the familiar to cast just to memorize so killing it not to effective in the here and now. Do i want to include it in my aoes when fighting with a monster that may run and come back and knows the kill the familiar secret??? YES !! EVERY TIME!!!

sorry miss quoted first time

Any chance of an actual (Paizo) response to this problem, rather than all the nonsensical side issues? Or is this a "feature" in PC talk?

I thought the whole point of quantifying abilities as Extraordinary, Spell-Like, or Supernatural was so that you could just go Ability (Su) in a stat block and know what rules to follow. Now it's like Ability (Su*)

* may not actually follow Supernatural Abilities rules, you'll have to look this up on a case by case basis, or consult Sebastian.

Dear god THIS THIS THIS!!! Please paizo don't become wizards where every single rule must be double checked every single time because each version of the same thing works differently.

I really think that the hexs should be stronger in the scales with level aspect and have range. I think the evil curses should be a little more scary sounding like the curse from the movie thinner. I do also think that the curses should come with a flipable version for each one that cant be used at the same time I.E. goodluck charm/evil eye being one choice.

I hope this makes it to being posted my ideas on redoing the summoner because he reminds me more of the alienist class than a summoner vanished into the oblivion.

Witch has a distinct European meaning that is different from Greek legends.

I posted this elswhere but it got lost in the OMG claw attacks post. I wanted to offer an alternative to the summoner as is.

I love the concept. My thing with the summoner is more a personal thing than anything else. I would say summoner is the wrong term for this incarnation. Alienest seems a more appropriate term because the eidelon reminds me of a psionic entity more so than a summoned creature. It doesnt seem to come from any known or set plane and has no stigma if its evil or good its just is.

I am going to use the idea of a demon summoner but please understand that this could easily be done for any planar alignment

I think you might be better going with a perma beefy summon monster that is themed by type and call it demonic call 1-9 . Every few levels give the players a few new summonables to choose from. I.E. at level 6 a summoner could cast demons call to summon a succubus or similiar level demon monster. You could also create new demons for the summoner but by giving new things that could be summoned at each few levels you have a power bar set. Also have the creatures that are going to be used that day get summoned in an hour long ritual at the beginning of the day and can be put on a kind of standby. However make the stand by cost something. Either make it so the caster visibly shows demonic features or must use one of his summon monster as a standard action abilities to call his pet to him quickly.

Have the evolutions become forced pacts in the case of a demonic caster that give you points in the demon category that are added to all creatures summoned using demons call .
lvl 5 summoner gets 7 points
Speak the name of the fiend (2pts of forced pact, monster get +4 vs banishment and you can speak to it telepathically and you can heal yourself 1 point for every two points you steal from the creature because during the casting you spoke its true name ) stigma, The names of demons should not be spoken on the mortal plane you bear the mark of a demon on your tongue saying anyones name while so marked is painful to that persons ears.

Call on the winds of ghenna(4pts of forced pact, when you open the gate and summon the demon you open a link to ghenna infusing the demon with its droning winds +2 categories of flight skill or flight if the monster doesnt have it and +4 to all concentration checks for verbal spellcasting in 100ft)stigma, the droning winds of all the lies ever spoken break through the world to swirl around you. If you fail a diplomacy check the npc drops two spaces on the chart for interaction. If you fail a bluff by more than 10 the opponent thinks you made a threat against them.

You could have summoners get more points or more effect if they stayed in their specialty and have the monster be lessened if its in the wrong line, a demon summoner summoning a devil. This will reduce on super built monster twinking and give players an I can't wait till 18th level I will be calling on Srayter Higlotum the bleeding eyed ancient demon of hate.

As for feats have feats focus on the casters link to his summoned creatures or demonic parts.

blighted blood
feat level 12 requirement cha 16 demonic summoner
Whenever you have an demonic summoned creature your body pulses with its life force and you cease to be considered human for spell targeting and are considered an outsider of the same alignment as your creature.

wings of the erines
feat level 8 requirement
for level +cha mod in minutes per day you can fly using bloody wings that seem to scream as you fly. You must keep an erines wing feather on you embedded in your skin for 24 hours before this feat has effect at which point it burrows into your skin unless forcibly removed. If this is done you will have to complete the 24 hour process again.

I like the spell list for the summoner. If a GM is not running "hey one fight today and then done" your summoner shouldn't be blowing every spell in a combat. The only spell I saw that made me go ick was haste at second level spells.

Lastly you could reduce magic item use by making the spellcaster have to wear the item or make the calling spell interfere with magic items.

if you guys completely hate this just say so ill nuke it.

My 2 cents.

I love the concept. Both classes have awesome flavor. My thing with the summoner is more a personal thing than anything else. I would say summoner is the wrong term for this incarnation. Alienest seems a more appropriate term because the eidelon reminds me of a psionic entity more so than a summoned creature. It doesnt seem to come from any know or set plane and has no stigma if its evil or good its just is.

I think you might be better going with a perma beefy summon monster that is themed by type. Elemental angelic demonic. Every few levels give the players a few new summonables to choose from. I.E. Demonic summoner at level 5 shadow demon(high dex sneaky stabby type),sulfer eater(more beefy and fighter style monster), etc. Have the evolutions become forced pacts in the case of a demonic caster that give you points in the demon category thay can be added when summoned by weaving magic into the summoning. I.E. Speak the name of the fiend (2pts of forced pact, monster get +4 vs banishment and you can speak to it telepathically because during the casting you spoke its true name) Call on the winds of ghenna(4pts of forced pact, when you open the gate and summon the demon you open a link to ghenna infusing the demon with its droning winds +2 categories of flight skill or flight if the monster doesnt have it and +4 to all concentration checks for verbal spellcasting in 100ft) You could have summoners get more points if they stayed in their specialty and each category has choices. This will reduce on super built monster twinking and give players an I can't wait till 18th level I will be calling on Srayter Higlotum the bleeding eyed ancient demon of hate.

As for feats have feats focus on the casters link to his summoned creatures.

Guiding light
feat level 8 requirement wis 16 angelic summoner
Whenever you have an angelic summoned creature you eminate a light halo of light giving off light as a torch and giving you and allies in 15 feet of you or your pet +2 on fear and enchantment spells.

I like the spell list for the summoner. If a GM is not running hey one fight today and then done your summoner shouldn't be blowing every spell in a combat. The only spell I saw that made me go ick was haste at second level spells.

Lastly you could reduce magic item use by making the spellcaster have to wear the item or make the calling spell interfere with magic items.