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I'm trying to figure out how to handle a PC who animates undead from the corpses of the creatures they encounter and kill.
Problem 1: The undead template from 3.5E says to keep the creatures original stats. What about creatures with Str and Dex scores in the 20's? Does that make sense for an undead skeleton?
Problem 2: Any restrictions on creature types? What about outsiders? Native outsiders? Does a venomous animal still have venom when it's an undead skeleton?
Problem 3: What commands can be issued? I've told the player they need to limit commands to 2-3 words: attack, defend me, open door, walk away, climb ladder, and so forth. The players intent is to use them to set off traps and such and I don't have any problem with that. But I'm concerned that the skeletons are doing the adventuring and not the PCs. ;)
If you have any pointers to rules text that helps with any of the above I'd love to hear it. I have some of Mongoose Publishing's d20 add-ons, particularly the one on necromancy so I'm reading that now...
Problem 1: Not really a problem, since the creator of the undead can only control 4HD of undead per level, and the creatures with higher stats also tend to have higher number of HD. If the PC tries to create too many, some of the older undead become uncontrolled, and will likely attack the nearest living things (the PCs). Creating a bunch of Str 20 3HD skeletons that might turn around and attack you is not a good idea.
(Page 241, Animate Dead spell, PFRPG Core Book)
Problem 2: If it has a skeleton, it can be made into an animated skeleton. This does not mean it keeps any of its special attacks, or even movement modes (skeletal wings don't work unless the base creature flew magically). (Page 22, Bestiary Preview)
Problem 3: If they are commanded to follow the PC, they can be ordered to perform simple tasks (about on the order of what an Unseen Servant can do, but the skeleton can also attack). Remember, the Skeleton has an intelligence of --, which means it will do what it is told, literally. It will also continue to do the same thing, repeatedly, until told to stop. If the PC tells it to attack that Orc over there, it will attack that Orc, and will continue to attack it even after the Orc is dead, until told to stop. As far as setting off traps, that depends on what triggers the traps. Traps that are set off by living creatures (such as most magic traps) won't react to the undead.
Overall, if the skeletons are killing all of the enemies, and setting off all the traps, and collecting all the loot, while the PCs sit back and pull the puppet strings, then the PCs are not really learning anything except how to play medieval video games, and should get less XPs, if you give them any at all. No risk means no reward, unless the PCs are overcoming problems in new and interesting ways.
Just my opinion.
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I'm trying to figure out how to handle a PC who animates undead from the corpses of the creatures they encounter and kill.
Problem 1: The undead template from 3.5E says to keep the creatures original stats. What about creatures with Str and Dex scores in the 20's? Does that make sense for an undead skeleton?
Skeletons are reanimated to make use of their former physical traits. There is no problem with this.
Problem 2: Any restrictions on creature types? What about outsiders? Native outsiders? Does a venomous animal still have venom when it's an undead skeleton?
Probably not, on the venom. As for outsiders, I know the evil ones are merely banished upon death, unless they are dimensionally anchored. A few other outsiders would retain their supernatural abilities but I doubt they'd have all the extraordinary. Use common sense here.
Problem 3: What commands can be issued? I've told the player they need to limit commands to 2-3 words: attack, defend me, open door, walk away, climb ladder, and so forth. The players intent is to use them to set off traps and such and I don't have any problem with that. But I'm concerned that the skeletons are doing the adventuring and not the PCs. ;)
Its a valid tactic, but also keep in mind this character has to store them somewhere when he goes to town. The town priests could would and SHOULD channel positive energy every chance they get against the undead suckers. Otherwise treat them like animal companions, only dumber. They will not optimize tactics to fight people, so they tend to just literally follow orders. For instance if in a fit of temper they shout "Stop following me" the skeletons would stop following him until he told them to follow again.
If you have any pointers to rules text that helps with any of the above I'd love to hear it. I have some of Mongoose Publishing's d20 add-ons, particularly the one on necromancy so I'm reading that now...
I would be careful of anything mongoose publishing prints, they are notorious for being either too weak, or too strong.
Liber Mortis is the book you want to be reading from the WotC library. It has a lot of stuff on undead you will find helpful. Keep in mind the undead traits and read through that section of the monsters manual at least twice.
I'm trying to figure out how to handle a PC who animates undead from the corpses of the creatures they encounter and kill.
Problem 1: The undead template from 3.5E says to keep the creatures original stats. What about creatures with Str and Dex scores in the 20's? Does that make sense for an undead skeleton?
Problem 2: Any restrictions on creature types? What about outsiders? Native outsiders? Does a venomous animal still have venom when it's an undead skeleton?
Problem 3: What commands can be issued? I've told the player they need to limit commands to 2-3 words: attack, defend me, open door, walk away, climb ladder, and so forth. The players intent is to use them to set off traps and such and I don't have any problem with that. But I'm concerned that the skeletons are doing the adventuring and not the PCs. ;)
If you have any pointers to rules text that helps with any of the above I'd love to hear it. I have some of Mongoose Publishing's d20 add-ons, particularly the one on necromancy so I'm reading that now...
IIRC you need onyx to place into their eyes before you can raise them. Make sure they track the onyx, and dont make onyx widely available.
Be lucky he is not playing a dread necromancer.
Honestly, causing an artificial absence of a necessary spell component is simply cheesy. It's getting around the actual problem, which is not so much of a problem. A necromancer may excel at some challenges, but will definitely lose out on others--the children screaming in terror, the villagers barring their windows, the fear-immune paladins and their cleric buddies running up to deal with the evil necromancer. And the traps the zombies are tripping are probably things that could be tripped just as easily by Mage Hand and a mop. Is it necessary to cause a mop shortage due to poor trap design?
The other solution is to send some monsters that can't be made into undead: oozes, plant creatures, outsiders, and by most logic, fae: No one ever heard of a zombie wood nymph or a skeleton satyr, and the reason may be that, following medieval metaphysics, fae have spirits as opposed to souls, and only beings with souls come back as undead.
Or let them run into some other necromancers or dark priests, ones who do more than dabble with the undead and might just seize control of those corpses the PC necromancer has thoughtfully animated.
And has the PC paid his dues to the Necromancer's Guild? Logically, if there's anything sufficiently useful and profitable, there will be some regulatory body, even if self-appointed.
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What they want to do, it sounds like, is not really too much of a deal. In fact, having the skeleton walk through the portal with the glowing glyphs is quite classic. It's just the necromancer doing his thing. A mage with Unseen Servant or Ring of Telekenesis can do much the same.
Just be glad they have not realized they could put skeletons to industrial work! 32 ordinary skeletons can create something like 2 Gigawatts of energy (more or less).
And it only takes 1.21 Gigawatts, a delorian and a flux capacitor to time travel. OMG BROKEN NECRO!
Honestly, causing an artificial absence of a necessary spell component is simply cheesy.
It's not artificial and it's the entire reason why material components are specifically defined rather than only being gold values. It makes perfect sense that component-quality onyx would be a restricted material in most typical countries, because (AFAIK) component-quality onyx is only used for necromantic spells involving creating undead. Making necromancers either register with the state or deal with the black market is the intended consequence of the repeated use of onyx for that particular purpose.
And it only takes 1.21 Gigawatts, a delorian and a flux capacitor to time travel. OMG BROKEN NECRO!
LMAO!!!
For the record, unless anchored by magic, if an outsider is slain, it goes home to its native plane. If I am not mistaken, so please correct me if I am wrong I havent looked it up recently.
Problem 2: Any restrictions on creature types? What about outsiders? Native outsiders? Does a venomous animal still have venom when it's an undead skeleton?
Go over the template in detail. Go through it step-by-step with your players in creating skeletons and zombies, until you know how it goes.
First off, any corporeal creature with a skeletal system (except undead) can be made skeletons/zombies. Second, they lose pretty much everything, except stats. About all they maintain... "A skeleton loses most special qualities of the base creature. It retains any extraordinary special qualities that improve its melee or ranged attacks." They lose all special attacks. Venom is a special attack, and a snake's only special quality is Scent, which has nothing to do with their melee or ranged attacks, so they keep neither.
The other solution is to send some monsters that can't be made into undead: oozes, plant creatures, outsiders, and by most logic, fae: No one ever heard of a zombie wood nymph or a skeleton satyr, and the reason may be that, following medieval metaphysics, fae have spirits as opposed to souls, and only beings with souls come back as undead.
More likely, it's just that they have pretty crummy stats and they're not worth bringing back in the first place, since they lose all their good stuff.
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I am kind of curious on just how much disposable cash these guys have. I mean, each zombie/skeleton costs at least 25g/hd in onyx. I am assuming the high cost already factors in the average availability of Onyx in the campaign world. There shouldn't be any need to artificially inflate it. Also, if I remember correctly, Zombies and Skeletons weren't all that awesome. They get basic attacks, slow movement( which will mean it takes longer for the party to get anywhere unless they have wagons full of undead ), and are subject to holy water/turning/controlling. As other people have said, if there are tons of undead following the party around, I imagine there should be Clerics and Paladins of Sarenrae in pursuit.
So, in short, 75gp for a 3 hd undead that will probably die fairly quickly doesn't seem that bad. Especially when you factor in upset clergy. And once destroyed the undead can't be re-animated so your pcs have to go out and butcher more stuff. Also, I would use the part of the 3.5 spell description where the onyx is put in the eyes of the soon to be undead. It adds flavor and takes a bit more time. Smart monsters would wait until the pcs were busy prepping the undead before attacking.
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Thanks everyone; lots of good input here. :)
I was reading the MGP stuff mostly to gain an idea of how they handle controlling the undead, but they don't discuss it at all. I've got Libre Mortis on my bookshelf so that one is next...
I don't consider it a problem to allow the onyx (and I agree it seems cheesy to arbitrarily restrict it) although I expect that they will soon find that the price has gone up as there isn't much of it left! This PC has already created about 16 undead so far (he's level 7), although not all at one time.
Btw, does the "25 gp/HD" apply to the original creature's HD including class levels? I ask because the skeleton doesn't gain the HD related to class levels so it seems the necromancer shouldn't pay for it; but that could be a balance factor that discourages animating creatures with class levels. And related to that, the template from d20srd.org states:
A skeleton retains all the natural weapons, manufactured weapon attacks, and weapon proficiencies of the base creature, [...]
But if the weapon proficiencies were earned due to class levels, they go away because the class levels go away, correct?
Based on what I've read in this thread, I don't think there should be any problem animating an outsider's body. The outsider themselves may be permanently destroyed, but the soul/spirit/consciousness of the original creature isn't required to animate the body anyway.
But if the weapon proficiencies were earned due to class levels, they go away because the class levels go away, correct?Based on what I've read in this thread, I don't think there should be any problem animating an outsider's body. The outsider themselves may be permanently destroyed, but the soul/spirit/consciousness of the original creature isn't required to animate the body anyway.
Yes all level benifits go away. As well as outsiders bodies go away, so i don't think you can animate an outsiders body, unless it has the Native Outsider descriptor. i am sure I am correct, but check me if I am wrong.
Let me correct myself, I just read the outsider subtype, and according to that an outsider's body and soul form a single unit. So if you slay it, it's gone, only wish / limited wish can bring it back.
I would say no you cannot animante an outsiders corpse (with the exception of a native outsider) based on this, but its still a judgement call on the DM since there is no definate rule. My apologies for my earlier post.
edited because I can't spell
Btw, does the "25 gp/HD" apply to the original creature's HD including class levels? I ask because the skeleton doesn't gain the HD related to class levels so it seems the necromancer shouldn't pay for it; but that could be a balance factor that discourages animating creatures with class levels.
I believe it's only the hit die of the resulting undead, with class levels being ignored.
But if the weapon proficiencies were earned due to class levels, they go away because the class levels go away, correct?
Class abilities are lost, but weapon proficiency, at least in the weapon being wielded at the time of death, is retained. Skeleton archers are pretty standard fare.
As well as outsiders bodies go away, so i don't think you can animate an outsiders body, unless it has the Native Outsider descriptor. i am sure I am correct, but check me if I am wrong.
Well, there isn't actually a problem with animating outsiders. Just with getting their corpse. If you use a calling effect, like Planar Binding, or if you go to their home plane, then they don't vanish on "death," meaning you can raise them as with anything else.
Let me correct myself, I just read the outsider subtype, and according to that an outsider's body and soul form a single unit. So if you slay it, it's gone, only wish / limited wish can bring it back.
I would say no you cannot animante an outsiders corpse (with the exception of a native outsider) based on this, but its still a judgement call on the DM since there is no definate rule. My apologies for my earlier post.
However, outsiders are still corporeal beings, and presumably have a skeletal structure. Also, though their body and soul are a single unit, it's still a valid vessel. They just leave behind a lifeless bodysoul instead of just a lifeless body.
And reviving an outsider can be done by casting the Revive Outsider spell on the dead bodysoul.
And reviving an outsider can be done by casting the Revive Outsider spell on the dead bodysoul.
No doubt the manual of the planes, but my above mentioned post, come from the core rulebook Monsterous Manual 3.5. Am am sure D&D has a rule to change every rule they've ever made so, eh, Revive Outsider is no exception.
Good work though and thanks for pointing that out to me.
Honestly, causing an artificial absence of a necessary spell component is simply cheesy.It's not artificial and it's the entire reason why material components are specifically defined rather than only being gold values. It makes perfect sense that component-quality onyx would be a restricted material in most typical countries, because (AFAIK) component-quality onyx is only used for necromantic spells involving creating undead. Making necromancers either register with the state or deal with the black market is the intended consequence of the repeated use of onyx for that particular purpose.
True but "available only from a state registered site or the black market" is not the same thing as "unavailable." And this also can explain why the stuff costs 25 GP, since onyx is a relatively cheap semiprecious stone, and 25 GP might otherwise buy a chunk of onyx bigger than your head.
My trouble is the idea of necromancy quality onyx being legal and every shop in the city being out of stock with Gather Information checks and even Telepathy not able to turn up a reason for this, including, but not limited to, another necromancer planning a big project, some clerics and paladins out to actively thwart the necromancers, a crazed merchant with a scheme to corner the onyx market and raise the price, or just a jaded noblewoman who set a fashion for onyx jewelry making it the "in" thing this season and the magic shops have been drained by jewelers who've been making art deco jewelry.
But "Nope, sorry, all out, don't know when we'll be getting more in, don't know who might be stockpiling old stock, and the only thing I do know is that the mines all played out last week" really looks like the DM just making stuff up to annoy the players.
But "Nope, sorry, all out, don't know when we'll be getting more in, don't know who might be stockpiling old stock, and the only thing I do know is that the mines all played out last week" really looks like the DM just making stuff up to annoy the players.
That I can definitely agree with.
True but "available only from a state registered site or the black market" is not the same thing as "unavailable." And this also can explain why the stuff costs 25 GP, since onyx is a relatively cheap semiprecious stone, and 25 GP might otherwise buy a chunk of onyx bigger than your head.
That actually led to a silly discussion of RAW in 3.5 where it's technically not possible to make a human zombie because the spell required you to place the gem in the mouth or eye socket of the creature to be raised, and a 25g hunk of onyx would be so massive that you couldn't possibly fit it.
Then Shrink Item solved that issue.
Though my explanation for scale issues like that is that a hunk of onyx suitable for Animate Dead is no bigger than the tip of your thumb, but has expensive arcane engravings that made up the rest of the value.
Just remember that animating dead is a class ability for your PC. Taking away his ability to animate dead would be like taking away the fighter's ability to swing his sword.
Sure, it's annoying. Sure it can seem overpowered sometimes. But it is his class ability, and restricting it is a really harsh reaction.
So be careful with limiting the onyx, or consistently throwing enemies that cannot be animated at them. "Crap, Dave, that's the 17th ooze we had to fight. Between them and those 21 golems and all the wraiths and ghosts, I haven't had anything with a bone in its body for four levels now! What's that now? Our next fight will be a fire elemental? I quit!"
Do it a little. Make them work for it a bit. Just like the fighter has to work for his new shiny magical sword a bit.
Just don't take it away.
One interesting way to limit it that won't seem unfair is to increase the number of times they face good clerics/paladins who wipe the slate clean. A couple well-placed channel energies and it's bye-bye skeletonds, time to animate a new horde.
Certainly don't do it all the time, that would be unduly punishing, but often enough to be justified by the local towns and heroes sending out their very best guys to put a stop to a necromancer roaming the land.
As for the undead setting off traps. So what? The player could have made a competent rogue and disabled all those traps anyway. One way or another, traps are just inconveniences that are almost overcome by someone in the PC party using a class ability to deal with the traps - I did mention that animating dead is this PC's class ability, didn't I?
Sure, throw in some clever traps. Runes that are only triggered by living beings. Pressure plates that need 100 pounds to set them off (a human skeleton weighs about 15% of the total body weight, so a 200 pound man has a 30 pound skeleton). Gas traps that fill an area so big that it even affects that necromancer standing way back behind his skeletons. Traps that release undead (e.g. wraiths) or vermin (e.g. insect swarm) that attack the nearest living enemy (ignoring the skeletons). Traps that set off negative energy waves.
Again, probably a bad idea to do this kind of stuff all the time. But throw in a few to keep the necromancer on his toes.
And a final note. Seems to me that if you take a human with 20 STR and a human with 8 STR and turn them both into skeletons, in all probability, you will have two roughly identical skeletons. There is little reason to assume that one of them does +6 to hit and damage more than the other one. Now, sure, the stronger guy probably weighs more (unless the weak guy is really fat) and so his skeleton weighs more too, but that probably doesn't justify +6 to hit and damage.
STR comes from the muscles, not the bones, although the bones provide the solid framework to anchor those muscles.
Much the same can be said about other ability scores. Why would a really nimble human rogue make a skeleton with any more DEX than a clumsy human commoner?
So, it may be justified to use the racial base stats for the skeletons. All ogres are really strong, so it's expected that an ogre skeleton would be really strong.
I doubt that the RAW has any word on this, but it seems a reasonable expectation.
Otherwise, necromancers would always be looking to slaughter and reanimate the village blacksmiths way way more than they would want to slaughter and reanimate his wife...
STR comes from the muscles, not the bones, although the bones provide the solid framework to anchor those muscles.
Physics is a house rule. Using this reasoning, skeletons cannot move at all, muscles are what make the bones actually move.
I have to ask, What does RAW mean?
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Clerics won't really have an issue with a Necromancer animating thier fallen enemies. No creating Intelligent evil undead is another story. Keep in mind Skeletons and Zombies are only somewhat useful in the long term Dungeon fighting.
Speaking from experience they can cause all sorts of issues that you don't expect.
1. They take up space on the battlefield In some cases blocking the melee fighters from being able to attack monsters.
2. They aren't exceptionally effective in combat.
3. The bodies need to be relatively intact in order to reanimate.
4. At higher levels they die really quickly....
Some things you may want to keep in mind.
Necromancers can use thier command undead ability to animate and control more then 4 hd a lvl so it actually is more like 5 hd a level.
There are evil priests and other Necromancers who the party will fight who will generally be higher level who can take control of his undead horde.
Undead are not particularly stealthy and as such a large squad of skeletons and zombies leading the way will pretty much ruin any chance of suprise the party has especially if they are setting off traps.
If you have concerns talk it over with the player and set ground rules for the spell and make sure the player talks it over with the rest of the party or he might go to bed with an undead army only to wake up and find piles of dust....
I have to ask, What does RAW mean?"Rules As Written."
A mythological interpretation of the rules that has never been used in any home game ever.
And yet still important, because it's important to know what the rules actually say before you go making changes willy-nilly.
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I have to ask, What does RAW mean?"Rules As Written."
A mythological interpretation of the rules that has never been used in any home game ever.
That's highly unfair dude. Going with that you would be saying that you would home brew all your classes, how combat works, how EVERY spell works, ect., ect.
You would not be playing pathfinder at that point but your own role playing game based off pathfinder.
I think its safe to say that the majority of rules are follow as written. Its that last bit that needs to be read RAI.
That actually led to a silly discussion of RAW in 3.5 where it's technically not possible to make a human zombie because the spell required you to place the gem in the mouth or eye socket of the creature to be raised, and a 25g hunk of onyx would be so massive that you couldn't possibly fit it.Then Shrink Item solved that issue.
Though my explanation for scale issues like that is that a hunk of onyx suitable for Animate Dead is no bigger than the tip of your thumb, but has expensive arcane engravings that made up the rest of the value.
I did something similar. It's about the only logical way for it to work. Ditto with the absurdly expensive strips of ivory needed for some divinations. Making the components into art objects makes much more sense.
Problem with Controlling the price of Onyx theory.
Prices go up? "Great now I need less to get the same effect since it's 25 gp of onyx, it never states the size of the onyx needed!" From the wizard-player-that-actually-reads-his-spells.
25 gp of onyx is 25 gp of onyx. Truthfully though I really wouldn't worry about skeletons or zombies. There is a reason they are used as mooks in the necromancer's army, and that's because they have no other use.
25 gp of onyx is 25 gp of onyx. Truthfully though I really wouldn't worry about skeletons or zombies. There is a reason they are used as mooks in the necromancer's army, and that's because they have no other use.
They have their uses. A zombie pegasus or hippogriff is a low-maintenance flying mount. A zombie soarwhale is the ultimate in transportation without the problems of a living, breathing being. Elephants are also good. The zombie hydra is epic because they retain the ability to make multiple attacks as a standard action. And if all else fails, a hoard of skeletal archers can be very dangerous up through mid levels through the sheer number of arrows they can put out.
25 gp of onyx is 25 gp of onyx. Truthfully though I really wouldn't worry about skeletons or zombies. There is a reason they are used as mooks in the necromancer's army, and that's because they have no other use.They have their uses. A zombie pegasus or hippogriff is a low-maintenance flying mount. A zombie soarwhale is the ultimate in transportation without the problems of a living, breathing being. Elephants are also good. The zombie hydra is epic because they retain the ability to make multiple attacks as a standard action. And if all else fails, a hoard of skeletal archers can be very dangerous up through mid levels through the sheer number of arrows they can put out.
For the Soarwhale or Elephant I would probably go skeleton as well as the hydra since all zombies are staggered and that limits their abilities to move at a good speed or take full attacks.
"Staggered (Ex): Zombies have poor ref lexes and can only
perform a single move action or standard action each
round. A zombie can move up to its speed and
attack in the same round as a charge action."
Since attacking with all your natural weapons is a full attack action the zombie hydra can't do it.
Archers are always useful, however it runs into all the normal problems (protection from arrows etc) and at the point you can raise skeletons and zombies (4th level spell) you will likely be facing things that are less than worried about a undead (not always but often DR/magic and the like really starts popping up then as does good AC).
Since attacking with all your natural weapons is a full attack action the zombie hydra can't do it.
Actually, for a hydra, launching all their attacks is a standard action. Which is why hydras specifically make good zombies. Other than hydras, for a zombie, you want something like a T-Rex, that has one big, nasty attack rather than lots of little ones. Otherwise, unless the body has wing-based flight, yeah, skeleton's pretty much the way to go.
Ah that's right I forgot about the hydra move and full attack thing (that isn't pounce) which is probably an extra ordinary ability and affects it's attacks so would be kept.
Silly question that I can't resist asking:
If you cut off the head of a zombie hydra, do two new zombie hydra heads grow in its place?
Silly question that I can't resist asking:
If you cut off the head of a zombie hydra, do two new zombie hydra heads grow in its place?
Don't think so. If I remember correctly, Regeneration is a Supernatural ability, which means the zombie doesn't get it.
"Staggered (Ex): Zombies have poor ref lexes and can only
perform a single move action or standard action each
round. A zombie can move up to its speed and
attack in the same round as a charge action."
Unless you create a fast zombie as per the variant zombies section of the PF Bestiary Preview.
They do not get staggered as special quality and in addition gets the following:
"Quick Strikes (Ex): Whenever a fast zombie takes a full attack action, it can make one additional slam attack at its highest base attack bonus."
Cool!
Also note that if the Pathfinder monster rules are used from the bestiary, skeletons and zombies are no longer N in alighnment, they are NE which may have some bearing on non-evil characters animating them (and now it makes sense for teh animiate dead spell to be evil). Note also that though zombies and skeletons have an Int of -, they do have a wisdom score of 10 (equal to an average human). It could be argued that once they kill someone they have the wisdom not to contiue that person.
This is a bit of a tangent, but how do they plan to explain how a mindless thing can be evil? It's not an impossible problem, as I vaguely remember someone suggesting a "default program" for mindless undead, where barring other orders they eat people or chase the cat or tear up the lawn, but I'm curious what the PF approach will be.-edit-
Apparently they don't deal with this dilemma at all. That's a shame.
Not to much, actually if you note they were Neutral Evil in 3.5 as well. This change was I guess mostly prompted by the dynamic between Positive and Negative energy. Skeletons (and most undead), being powered by the antithesis of life, are evil by their very nature. It's not a philosophical distinction. In short they are an embodiment of that dynamic, a physical manifestation of Life vs Death.
(Has anyone though of doing a setting or adventure where is is Life or Positive energy that as gone out of balance and needs to be stopped?)
That's one of the crazy things about (A)D&D and by inheritance Pathfinder. Good, Evil, Law, Chaos, they are not just mortal moral constructs. They are actual forces independent of mortal views.
If you want a truly neutral animated skeleton I'd look to Animate Object (spell) or make a construct (not necessarily a golem mind). Those are animated by magic, which being a largely undefined force tends to have no particular alignment impact of its own.
Also note that if the Pathfinder monster rules are used from the bestiary, skeletons and zombies are no longer N in alighnment, they are NE which may have some bearing on non-evil characters animating them (and now it makes sense for teh animiate dead spell to be evil). Note also that though zombies and skeletons have an Int of -, they do have a wisdom score of 10 (equal to an average human). It could be argued that once they kill someone they have the wisdom not to contiue that person.
Even without evil skeletons or zombies, the fact that the spell itself is evil already presents a problem for neutral characters to run around animating the dead.
Evil is as Evil does...
But now it's even more true, and I am quite glad to see it. I could never hold with the idea of sucking someone's soul out of heaven (or whatever their god's equivalent might be) and ramming it into their remains to animate their corpse to do your bidding - all the while pretending it's not evil to do so.
It's enforced slavery of the soul for personal gain.
Worse, it's virtually the worst kind of torture, denying that soul the absolute bliss of whatever their god's version of eternal bliss would be. If for no other reason, being denied that and force to serve while you're soul is bound to your shambling remains would be torment unimaginable.
Definitely evil.
Though it could be argued that you were saving souls from eternal torment (if you only did it to evil people).
Well according to the PF Animated Dead spell, all it does is animate the skeleton or body of the target.
I have yet to read anywhere in the PF Core rulebook that states you are trapping the soul. Admittedly I have not read the book from cover to cover, so please do correct me if I am wrong.
However, this being said, you are not saving or damning anyone. RAW state the spell is an evil spell, so to cast it, regardless of intent is an evil action.
Player "I cast it to create a skeleton to save the party through!"
GM "Evil Spell."
Player "We are all alive because of the spell, isn't that good?"
GM "Evil Spell"
Player "WWJD?"
God "Evil Spell"
:)
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Are we really going to bring to afterlife into this? If we assume the cosmology always takes a soul to hid (or her) "just" reward, then any act of animation is a direct defying of the gods' will.
Of course an evil deity won't oppose slavery, and good clerics are always trying to earn favore with their gods by destroying abominations.
Even without evil skeletons or zombies, the fact that the spell itself is evil already presents a problem for neutral characters to run around animating the dead.Evil is as Evil does...
But now it's even more true, and I am quite glad to see it. I could never hold with the idea of sucking someone's soul out of heaven (or whatever their god's equivalent might be) and ramming it into their remains to animate their corpse to do your bidding - all the while pretending it's not evil to do so.
It's enforced slavery of the soul for personal gain.
Worse, it's virtually the worst kind of torture, denying that soul the absolute bliss of whatever their god's version of eternal bliss would be. If for no other reason, being denied that and force to serve while you're soul is bound to your shambling remains would be torment unimaginable.
Definitely evil.
Though it could be argued that you were saving souls from eternal torment (if you only did it to evil people).
You were not only freeing them from pain but giving them a chance for redemption as their soul got to help rebuild that which htey ahd torn down. I can see it as almost a judicial punishment in a lawful society. The individual is sentenced to death, and then 30 years labor rebuilding that which he destroyed. Sort of like a zombie "habitiats for humanity" making homes for the homeless.
Definitely good.
The souls who get eternal torment are not the ones who pledge their service to evil gods. Those souls are rewarded in their evil afterlife.
The souls who get eternal torment at the hands of evil gods are:
1. Souls who pledged to him then failed - evil gods tend to take this very personally.
2. Any enemy soul they can get their hands on, often offered as gifts to their loyal afterlife servitors.
3. Any other soul they get ahold of and decide to exact some evil pleasure by tormenting it.
It's pretty far-fetched to assume that evil living people who pledge their loyalto to an evil god and then go about an evil life will become subject to eternal torment when they die. If such were the case, nobody would be evil. After all, it's not like real-life Earth where believing in eternal damnation is a matter of faith, and those without faith believe they have nothing to fear.
No, in D&D cosmology, evil deities and eternal damnation exist. With a powerful enough spell you can visit those places and see it for yourself. With a less powerful spell, you can scry on those places and see it for yourself. It doesn't take an act of faith to believe in eternal damnation, any more than it takes an act of fait to believe birds can fly and fish can swim.
So, in D&D cosmology, evil gods who say "Serve me for the remainder of your life (estimated 50 years or less) and then I shall torment you with unlimited suffereing that lasts for billions of years, for all of eternity in fact!" will find that they get precious few followers indeed.
Instead, they say "Serve me for the remainder of your life an then I shall reward you by making you a general in my eternal armies, you shall have legions to command and an endless supply of souls to torment as you desire!"
And they stick to it, too. Sure, lying and tricking them, then tormenting them for eternity, that's all well and good if you're an evil god who wants 10 followers, or maybe even 100. But sooner or later some of your followers, and some of your enemies' followers, are going to figure out your deceit, and then word will spread, and pretty soon, nobody will trust your offer and nobody will become loyal followers.