I can't know this for sure, so if I'm way off base, forgive me. Some FLGS owners are great guys that love the hobby in general. Others see themselves as being the arbiters of what should and shouldn't be in gaming.
I've seen FLGS owners that openly trash games that their patrons want to buy because they personally don't like it. I've also seen some of them that are so sure they understand the market that they ignore customers asking for products that would be sure sales.
Thankfully, the FLGS I go to is a great store, with an owner that is much more interested in the hobby gaming industry flourishing than trying to push his favorite games. But I have seen that this isn't always the case with game store owners.
I swear we live in the same town. Same thing happened here with the store owner only carrying what he wanted. Thankfully he has long since closed down. Our 2 bookstores in our mall also closed unfortunately, although Games By James has some rpg-related goodness behind the counter.
Thanks to the Core Rulebook, I have now seen a Paizo product in a Borders store (DFW). Before, I only saw Paizo products at Barnes & Noble.WTF? I called a Borders store about this and they said it was an online-only product!This is wrong, or at least it will be soon. Borders has ordered hundreds of copies of the Pathfinder Core Rulebook, far more than they usually order for one of our Adventure Path volumes or other products. The Core Rulebook, with its nice thick spine and huge demand, is a perfect product for a store like Borders, and they know it.
However, their order came in after we had sold out, so apart from a few early orders it will probably not appear in stores until October, when the reprint (and the Bestiary, which Borders has also ordered) will arrive.
The Meriden Connecticut Borders bookstore just called me and said my book I reserved was in, I told them I already managed to buy one, so they said they were going to put it out on the shelf. They only got one copy in, so call to reserve it and head on down.
Joe
That's why I ordered PFRPG from my FLGS (Legends Games and Comics in Towson, MD), even though I could have gotten a 20% discount ordering it from here, or another online bookseller. I wanted to make sure the local folks knew there was interest (in turn, my FLGS asked me to run a Pathfinder demo at their mini RPG convention tomorrow).
Mind, my store already carried some Pathfinder stuff (they started carrying the APs when Dungeon and Dragon went away) but they do what a smart-but-small-game-store-owner should do: they order only one or two copies of a given book, and then display it prominently.
Gamers can see it and flip through it--and if the copy gets bought, they then replace it (or a gamer can ask them to order another copy if he just missed it). You cut down on losses by not buying many copies to begin with, but you still give new games local visibility. And it's often hard to predict what will end up being successful locally---there is often local demand that is very specific to an area, depending on what GMs are willing and available to run different games. Always a good idea to at least make various core rulebooks available--you never know who will pick something up and run it in the store---and running a game in-store ALWAYS increases sales, because then gamers will often opt to buy at the store when it's in front of them and when they think they need it RIGHT NOW, rather than go home, order online, and wait for it to arrive.
Come to think of it, if your FLGS doesn't carry Pathfinder, a great way to push for that to change would be to offer to run a session in house (if your FLGS has in-house gaming). That may convince the purveyors to give it a shot.
He told me that he thinks Pathfinder is a great system but it is really hard for them to stock it in the store because people can buy the books online cheaper than the gaming store can get them from the distributor.
If this is his concern, see what he thinks about the Pathfinder Chronicles and Companion products.
Amazon offers a big discount on the core rulebooks, but only a small discount on the Chronicles products, Adventure Path modules, and none on the Companions. These books cost $10-$20, which is great for an impulse buy at a game store.
Products like "Classic Monsters Revisited", &c., offer a lot of value as sourcebooks even to people who don't use the Pathfinder RPG rules. And "Guide to Absalom" is a useful city sourcebook that has almost no game rules at all.
To toss my own 2 cp in here, I agree with what a lot of you have said. Game stores need to support the games that people want to play, or that they want to sell.
Wanna sell Pathfinder in your store? Runa Pathfinder event and have some books in stock.
This is what happened when Mage Knight first came out. Our syracuse store (no longer around, at least in teh same capacity) had boxes on the shelves and nobody bought them because they thought "cheap plastic minis with poor paint jobs...no thanks" (This was before WOTC changed the way a lot of tabletop gamers felt about plastics...) For three weeks, I think they sold one set.
Then the owner gave a few of us a pair of starters to open up and play with, to learn the rules, during one of the other tournament events. So, we played around and did a few skirmishes and between rounds of the magic tournamnet, a few of the other people came over to watch...
By the end of the day, the store was out of Mage Knight...
Even my own local store in town didn;t really know about what Pathfinder was until I brought my rulebook in. I sat talking with the owner and a few of the other gamers were there listening and pawing at the book, looking at all of the changes from 3.5 (they were all anti 4e) and how cool the new book is. By the end of it, two of them asked the store owner to order them a copy in October...
I'm hoping to get a demo going later this month...
Anyway, the point is, game store owners, well, ANY store owner, will find something that their customers can get cheaper online. I'm in the industrial chemical industry, and my customers are always asking me why I can;t match the online prices they see... I tell them that our chemicals come with service and consulting and inspection...your FLGS can provide the same thing.
Ever been in a game store where a rules question comes up? Regardless of the actual knowledge of the store personnell, many gamers will go to them for rulings or at least advice. If you know your game, and can help players and GMs find the info, it works. This is especially helpful for new or younger GMs who dont have all of the resources.
(And of course, if the FLGS does wargames, they often have some cool 3d terrain to borrow for RPGs... We did a fantasy game explroing ruins using 3 sets of MOrdheim Buildings for the outdoor scenarios...)
OK, maybe that was 3 cp...
I started getting all my stuff from paizo directly BECAUSE of the reluctance of my game store to carry it. If i had a nickel for everytime i heard someone say "3.5 is dead" I'd have core rulebooks for my entire table.
The attitude is slowly changing, but the rest of my table had to beg just to get him to place an order for the rulebooks. We asked for 4, he ordered two. Its a start at least. Theres at least 3 groups in the area playing pathfinder actively though so with luck he'll see the logic in stocking the books. The one bright spot is he DID place a order for the 3 monster books we asked for plus a few extras since "monsters always sell"
I wish more gaming stores realized the benefit of customer service
CEO
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One thing I want to point out in this thread is that we just sent a nice restock of the Core Rulebook into the hobby store distribution channel and I have been seeing notices from stores that they can now buy the rulebook again. All the major and many of the minor distributors should have copies to last them until the second printing arrives in early November.
Also, we have some copies left here on paizo.com. Again, enough that we think that we'll have enough to last us until the second printing comes in early November.
You know, this would make a good email. I'll have to see about sending this info out, so that you know it even if you don't read this thread. :)
-Lisa
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I started getting all my stuff from paizo directly BECAUSE of the reluctance of my game store to carry it. ... We asked for 4, he ordered two. Its a start at least.
That's not "reluctance", that's "putting yourself out of business" ignorance. If your people are good about buying what they have him order, but he simply won't order it, that's sad.
Even though I have Pathfinder Subscriptions, I stopped by the new FLGS and they'll be my other source for non-subscription PF and other stuff. (Including the D&D minis)
Using one source to support the other.
You know, you bring up an interesting point, but in our area it has been quite the contrary. Our gaming store can't get enough of them in stores because they keep selling out.
Whereas local to me, the gaming/comics stores (typically the same thing) never even seem to order them in the first place.
And the local chain bookstores only order the biggest books (the PFRPG, the Campaign Guide), and often don't even allow you to order the smaller books like the Companion and Chronicles books!
Bah, Humbug:
as of last week, all roleplaing books have been pulled from the shelves of my local gamestore, to make way for their new line of wargaming supplies.
The owner has said that the store will order new RPG stock online at the customer's request.
It is now a time saver and a money saver, to avoid her markup and just order things online myself 9and I can probably find a better stockist too)
The death of the FLGS here.
batts
I recently moved, and noticed an interesting thing.
At the old FLGS- a great place (emphasis on the Friendly), they wouldn't hardly stock Paizo stuff. NO One but me was asking for it, so they wouldn't stock any of it.
At my request they finally got some of it, maybe a book or two- but not the main rule book.. and big surprise, it never sold.
80 miles away at my new place, I found a new store.. and they stocked nearly all the books because /they/ liked them. and low and behold- players found them and loved 'em. (i had to specially order a book from them cuz if i wanted to find it on the shelf, they kept selling out..)
the point:
i think alot of it comes down to that particular FLGS philosophy. Some stock shelves in hopes of sales and others will only stock for things that people are already bugging them for.. which makes it particularly difficult when something really really good (i.e. pathfinder) comes along.
Just glad i was moving to the pathfinder friendly place instead of away from it :)
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My FLGS will order me whatever I want, and I never buy from Paizo or Amazon directly because why would I pay for shipping?
The Critical Hit Deck is 10.99, but you have to pay 5 bucks shipping for it? Absurd. Amazon has free shipping as long as you spend enough money.
My FLGS charged me 10.99, standard retail. Now the bad thing is that I HAVE to order from him instead of him stocking it already.
I've made enquiries at my local comic shop (don't have a FLGS) about the possibility of getting the non-book items (I still want the subscription .pdfs for the books), and I noticed that there was no entry for anything but the AP, Setting books and the rulebooks, in Diamond Previews, which is what he uses for his regular order.
Is that typical, or is that just a 1-month blip, because there was nothing new out that specific month? Are older products still available from Diamond, and if so, do you quote the Paizo code?Or does he need to use a different distributor?
The shop-owner isn't a gamer, but I figured, if he's paying for a box of Marvel/DC mechandise, he can always get a few figures or a Harrow deck slid in the box, for the same postage.
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RPG Superstar 2015 Top 16, RPG Superstar 2013 Top 16
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As you can see my by tag, I subscribe to nearly everything. That's for one reason: I like the free PDFs. I don't always lug around a satchel full of books to games, so I like having PDFs handy on the laptop for the books I don't have with me.
I used to buy all my books either from Amazon or the FLGS in Fayetteville, NC (the Hobbit, which is awesome... the folks who run it are knowledgeable and helpful without being at all pushy, and they are all very polite). But since I can't get the PDF for free, I don't do that anymore.
IDK if anybody has made this suggestion, but has Paizo considered including in hardcopies sold through retailers a coupon or voucher that would either allow a free download of the PDF or grant some kind of price reduction on buying the PDF? That might entice more retail sales, which in turn would mean more retailers stocking the product, which gives the product more shelf visibility.
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So funny story. I was in one of the major cities in my state for a job interview and I stopped by a game store up there. About a year ago I went in looking for a copy of the dead tree version of Beta, and they told me that there was only interest in 4e in that area. When I went in today there was three shelves full of 4e stuff and three almost empty shelves where Pathfinder was supposed to be. The guy working the counter told me that they can't keep Pathfinder in stock. I almost spent my food and gas money on their last copy of the bestiary, but I couldn't figure out how I would explain to my wife that I chose buying the bestiary and being stranded 3 1/2 hours from home over getting back to her and the kids. :)
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IDK if anybody has made this suggestion, but has Paizo considered including in hardcopies sold through retailers a coupon or voucher that would either allow a free download of the PDF or grant some kind of price reduction on buying the PDF? That might entice more retail sales, which in turn would mean more retailers stocking the product, which gives the product more shelf visibility.
Unfortunately, yes, it's been debated at great length, and found unfeasible, since either the code is sealed (and you have vandals ripping the books apart) or the code is visible (and you buy your book, only to find a former browser has used it).
RPG Superstar 2009 Top 8
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Skip lunch, report your car stolen, leave empty wallet in car.I almost spent my food and gas money on their last copy of the bestiary, but I couldn't figure out how I would explain to my wife that I chose buying the bestiary and being stranded 3 1/2 hours from home over getting back to her and the kids. :)
See, David!
Thank you, Ughbash, for reaffirming my faith in the creativity of our community.
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RPG Superstar 2015 Top 16, RPG Superstar 2013 Top 16
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IDK if anybody has made this suggestion, but has Paizo considered including in hardcopies sold through retailers a coupon or voucher that would either allow a free download of the PDF or grant some kind of price reduction on buying the PDF? That might entice more retail sales, which in turn would mean more retailers stocking the product, which gives the product more shelf visibility.Unfortunately, yes, it's been debated at great length, and found unfeasible, since either the code is sealed (and you have vandals ripping the books apart) or the code is visible (and you buy your book, only to find a former browser has used it).
That's a shame. I'd like to think that nobody with the sense to play Pathfinder would stoop to vandalizing their product for a free PDF, but I guess that's the world in which we live. OTOH, I've seen other publishers use this same technique to deliver online content. Test prep guides do it all the time. Then again, those books are usually shrink-wrapped and I'd guess that shrink-wrapping an RPG book would nullify its browsability and reduce its shelf appeal. -sigh- Ah well, I subscribe, so I get 'em for free anyways.
Unfortunately, yes, it's been debated at great length, and found unfeasible, since either the code is sealed (and you have vandals ripping the books apart) or the code is visible (and you buy your book, only to find a former browser has used it).
Pretty much just as Snorter says. This is actually an industry-wide concern. No one has yet to come up with a way to sell pdf's in stores securely.
If you have any ideas, share!
I've made enquiries at my local comic shop (don't have a FLGS) about the possibility of getting the non-book items (I still want the subscription .pdfs for the books), and I noticed that there was no entry for anything but the AP, Setting books and the rulebooks, in Diamond Previews, which is what he uses for his regular order.
Is that typical, or is that just a 1-month blip, because there was nothing new out that specific month? Are older products still available from Diamond, and if so, do you quote the Paizo code?
Or does he need to use a different distributor?The shop-owner isn't a gamer, but I figured, if he's paying for a box of Marvel/DC mechandise, he can always get a few figures or a Harrow deck slid in the box, for the same postage.
Hey Snorter,
Diamond carries our entire line (with a couple small exceptions). I've never actually looked in a copy of Previews, but I'm assuming that what you're seeing are the monthly new releases and promotions. If there's a listing of all available products, they should all be in there. If not, most of the products are listed by their PZO code under the Vendor ID field. However, Diamond primarily lists by ISBN.
If you or your FLGS would like, I'd be more than happy to provide you with the list of my products information as Diamond shows it. Just shoot me an email at chris.self@paizo.com.
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IDK if anybody has made this suggestion, but has Paizo considered including in hardcopies sold through retailers a coupon or voucher that would either allow a free download of the PDF or grant some kind of price reduction on buying the PDF? That might entice more retail sales, which in turn would mean more retailers stocking the product, which gives the product more shelf visibility.Unfortunately, yes, it's been debated at great length, and found unfeasible, since either the code is sealed (and you have vandals ripping the books apart) or the code is visible (and you buy your book, only to find a former browser has used it).
The best way to do it that I have seen is just make it so that the code is a word or line of text from the book. I've seen a couple of indy presses try this, although I can't vouch for how well it has worked. You could have a rotating set of keys so that each time that they log in with the key to try and get their free download they are asked for a different word so they can't just run back to the store to copy down the right answer. Just a thought.
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Unfortunately, yes, it's been debated at great length, and found unfeasible, since either the code is sealed (and you have vandals ripping the books apart) or the code is visible (and you buy your book, only to find a former browser has used it).Pretty much just as Snorter says. This is actually an industry-wide concern. No one has yet to come up with a way to sell pdf's in stores securely.
If you have any ideas, share!
I still think the best way would be like how MMO's sell game time cards. You buy the card and it has a code you can enter once, with a scratch off. So if it is scratched off don't buy it. Not perfect sure but nothing is. But it seems to work for the MMO companies that way. Though not sure it would be worth it for game books, not sure what those cards would cost etc.
With the MMO's they just make the same card over and over with games. Well you would need a different box, card or something to show what the product is you are selling for each product which would drive cost up. So not sure how fessible that is.
The best way to do it that I have seen is just make it so that the code is a word or line of text from the book. I've seen a couple of indy presses try this, although I can't vouch for how well it has worked. You could have a rotating set of keys so that each time that they log in with the key to try and get their free download they are asked for a different word so they can't just run back to the store to copy down the right answer. Just a thought.
The problem, David, is not the getting the book to the consumer securely. The problem is keeping the consumer from sharing that book without any repercussions. Currently, the pdf sellers (including Paizo, RPGNow, DriveThru, etc) all watermark their pdfs. That's considered the best way to do it.
How do you watermark a pdf that you're selling in a game store?
In response to your suggestion: it's really, really easy for one person who does have the book to provide a listing of all the possible keys and share that. It could be updated just as fast as we could generate new keys.
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If you have any ideas, share!
Chris -
I pointed out something new to Vic a couple months ago in this post.
-Skeld
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I'm good friends with the local FLGS owners. I'm definitely not an impulse buyer; I like to plan my purchases and have a strict schedule of which books I intend to buy on which dates that stretches out a month or two in advance at any given point in time.
They're pretty good about not marking things up too much, but they have serious problems with getting things in stock on time. It's out of their control, but it's still a PitA. They also only stock the core Pathfinder stuff, namely the Core Rulebook and the Bestiary (so far anyway).
A lot of the gamers around here are either easy going older gamers who like 4th editions simplicity and don't play often enough to pick nits, or new gamers who haven't played anything but 4th edition. This is something I'm trying to remedy, and I'm considering asking if I can start hosting PFS sessions. We shall see.
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The best way to do it that I have seen is just make it so that the code is a word or line of text from the book. I've seen a couple of indy presses try this, although I can't vouch for how well it has worked. You could have a rotating set of keys so that each time that they log in with the key to try and get their free download they are asked for a different word so they can't just run back to the store to copy down the right answer. Just a thought.The problem, David, is not the getting the book to the consumer securely. The problem is keeping the consumer from sharing that book without any repercussions. Currently, the pdf sellers (including Paizo, RPGNow, DriveThru, etc) all watermark their pdfs. That's considered the best way to do it.
How do you watermark a pdf that you're selling in a game store?
In response to your suggestion: it's really, really easy for one person who does have the book to provide a listing of all the possible keys and share that. It could be updated just as fast as we could generate new keys.
See we are talking about two different things here. Hence the cross communication. I was talking about how might one set it up so that if you bought the book from your FLGS you could get a pdf copy as well. You are talking about selling the copy in the store. In the scenario I presented the pdf would still be atermarked because you would get it through the Paizo store using a code printed in the back of the book, similar to a gift certificate or coupon code. But someone who just copied the code out of the back of the book could not get the pdf because they didn't have the security key, which is a phrase from the book. Sorry Chris, I was confused as to what you were talking about.
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As far as direct sales of pdfs in a brick and morter store goes, I believe you are right, there is just no feasable way to do it securely. Particularly when you will always have guys like the asstard that my FLGS had to lay off, who would show up early so he could make photocopies of the books he or his friends wanted.
Local gaming stores are like local music stores - great when they are run by knowledgeable, helpful staff who encourage your interests and help expose you to new material; terrible when the staff are snobs who spend more time slagging the interests of their customers and essentially preventing sales. I've had good and bad experiences at both, and I wish I had a local gaming store nearby where I live now. But that complaint - "they can get it cheaper online" holds true for all bookstores. Heck, this week I went into Borders to get a book for my mom, and while I was there I grabbed Jacinto's Remnant (Gears of Wars tie-in novel) on impulse. On Amazon, I could have saved a few bucks, but I was there, it was there, and I bought it so I could read it that night, instead of waiting a week or so. That's how bookstores work.
It's like the owner of a bookstore complaining that "they can read it for free in the library".
I share the concerns of the original poster. Several folks have pointed out that all books (or just about anything) can be cheaper online and what stores offer (besides the social aspect) is the instant gratification.
Well, I am totally an instant gratification type of guy with most purchases and I strongly prefer to buy things retail rather than over the web. For example, I am am a voracious collector of music and I hit my local record store (Newbury Comics) a couple of times a week. Fortunately, they have a great selection compared to any other place, but I still I sometimes have a little post-it note in my wallet to remind me to look for certain albums that I haven't found in stock. Sure I could order them online but I'd rather find it, buy it, rip it open, look through the booklet on the train (or in the parking lot), then go home and listen to it instead of waiting a week for the mail to arrive.
Historically, I was the same way with my roleplaying purchases, being happy to pay a little more to support my local shop for many of the same reasons. However, since the launch of Pathfinder, and my subsequent conversion, I've pretty much stopped going to the game store entirely unless I happen to be wandering buy with time to kill. Most companies games, including WotC's can more easily be purchased online, or at larger retailers like Borders (which I walk by twice a day on my commute and is far more convenient than any local FLGS)...but still when I was buying mostly WotC products, I almost always bought them at my FLGS. However that's not the case anymore. The Paizo subscriptions are too good to resist. Since the AP are a serial product, I know that I am confident that I am going to buy each one and don't really feel the need to browse. Although not serial, the other PF lines have proved themselves to be of high enough quality that I don't mind committing to the monthly purchase, especially when the Pathfinder advantage makes it cheaper and they throw in free PDFs. Finally, my Paizo stuff is almost always in my mailbox several weeks before I see it any stores. With all that, it seems like it would be almost foolish not to buy direct.
Granted, I could buy locally just to support my local stores, but the fact of the matter is, for reasons others have alluded to, I don't particular feel that most of the local stores offer me a whole lot of concrete benefits (I play RPGs at home with long-time friends and am not looking for a place to hang out and meet other gamers). Unlike buying from a faceless corporate giant like Amazon versus a local bookstore, trading good customer service and other tangibles for simply a rock bottom lowest price, with Paizo I am giving still giving my business to what I consider one of the little guys...and more importantly, to one that frankly provides me much better customer service than any local LGS around here ever has.
That said, I do see how this could make it difficult for local stores to want to stock product, and hence difficult for newbies to stumble into the hobby. Fortunately, it sounds like there are still a number of gaming stores out there that seem to find it worthwhile anyway.
Thanks to the Core Rulebook, I have now seen a Paizo product in a Borders store (DFW). Before, I only saw Paizo products at Barnes & Noble.WTF? I called a Borders store about this and they said it was an online-only product!
The Borders I work in got 3 copies of the PFRPG Core Rules for the shelf (doesnt seem like a lot, but trust me, it is).
Well be getting some bestiaries tomorrow also (we have a hard street date of the 28th for some reason).
We also have had a couple random issues of RotRL and LoF on the shelf (but its weird to have part 5 and not the others... I never quite understand what goes through the buyers heads)
I pretty much buy all my stuff from Amazon due to lack of gaming shop. The closest one is 2 hours drive away. In town we do have comic/collectible's shop that stocks 4E and White Wolf games. That's about it though and it's pretty limited. The owner won't order books in though and I don't blame him because of what the distribution company charges for small orders. If he can time it with a regular shipment in bulk it's worth it for him but otherwise it's just not worth it at all. I was on trip the larger city where they have massive gaming shop, I always make point to stop and buy something there. They had a shelf full of Paizo products that was as big as they 4E stuff. I had a great time browsing and not enough money to buy all I wanted but I did buy two books that I removed from my Amazon wish list. I find Amazon might be cheaper but you never know if or when you will get he books. Still waiting for the core book to arrive that ordered back in July. I'd have bought that from the shop if I just at had it been available but it's big seller that they can't keep in stock.
As for LGS, I had a friend who ran a shop. He eventually went under but it wasn't gaming that caused the problem. He invested too heavily into another market and the bottom fell out costing him the business. When the shop did it's best though was with gaming. He's have the shop open till 10pm at night with 3 gaming rooms in the back. He actually made the best profits off selling junk food like pop, chips and chocolate bars. Gamers get the munchies and get thirsty and when easy to buy junk food is right there it sells. He used to say that the gum ball machine made him a fortune. He also let people game in that store to wee hours of the night, he was a real night owl and would close shop at 10 pm and then he game till 3 or 4 in morning every night. Now those were good days. There wasn't a day you couldn't game in that shop. I remember how he'd let you take book off the shelf and use it for the game. If you damaged it you bought it but you usually ended up forking the cash out for by the end of the night anyways. Now that's the way to run a gaming store.
The Borders I work in got 3 copies of the PFRPG Core Rules for the shelf (doesnt seem like a lot, but trust me, it is).
Well be getting some bestiaries tomorrow also (we have a hard street date of the 28th for some reason).
We also have had a couple random issues of RotRL and LoF on the shelf (but its weird to have part 5 and not the others... I never quite understand what goes through the buyers heads)
Now every Borders I'm checking has one, sometimes two copies. I'm so happy!
Now every Borders I'm checking has one, sometimes two copies. I'm so happy!
Yeah, Borders bought into the RPG early and heavily. Which we're not at all displeased about.
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Chief Technical Officer
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The best way to do it that I have seen is just make it so that the code is a word or line of text from the book. I've seen a couple of indy presses try this, although I can't vouch for how well it has worked. You could have a rotating set of keys so that each time that they log in with the key to try and get their free download they are asked for a different word so they can't just run back to the store to copy down the right answer. Just a thought.
So if you can get a friend to loan you their copy for ten minutes, or if your library has a copy, or if you have an iPhone you can use in the store, you get a free PDF!
Seriously, though, we've debated this regularly, and put many of the best minds in the industry on it, and there's no one good plan than covers everybody's concerns. Catalyst's plan, which Skeld mentioned a few posts up, is probably the best solution I've seen; now we just have to see it expand beyond a dozen stores.
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Chief Technical Officer
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I still think the best way would be like how MMO's sell game time cards. You buy the card and it has a code you can enter once, with a scratch off. So if it is scratched off don't buy it.
So if it's scratched off, who paid for it? Probably the party that could least afford to—the retailer. Essentially, then, it becomes something they have to secure like cash, and while the electronic game retailers might be ready to do that, many stores in our industry probably aren't interested in taking on that additional risk.
Don't forget two other major factors here.
1: Many brick-and-mortar retailers think that PDFs are going to put them out of business. Therefore, they're not going to do anything that helps sell PDFs, even if they get a cut of it.
2: Many brick-and-mortar retailers think that online retailers are going to put them out of business. (Which is pretty much what this whole thread is *about*.) And since Paizo is an online retailer, some of them won't do *anything* that requires—or even encourages—their customers to go to our site.
Now, you know and I know that a good retailer who provides excellent customer service and finds ways of adding value has nothing to fear from PDFs and from online stores, but it's still a big, big issue to many of them, and it *has* to be addressed—one way or another—before this problem is solved.
Yeah, Borders bought into the RPG early and heavily. Which we're not at all displeased about.
Now every Borders I'm checking has one, sometimes two copies. I'm so happy!
In the past, it always seemed like B&N did better by Paizo than Borders, which disappointed me, as I much prefer Borders as a customer. Here's hoping this marks a reversal of that state-of-affairs.
In the past, it always seemed like B&N did better by Paizo than Borders, which disappointed me, as I much prefer Borders as a customer. Here's hoping this marks a reversal of that state-of-affairs.Yeah, Borders bought into the RPG early and heavily. Which we're not at all displeased about.
Now every Borders I'm checking has one, sometimes two copies. I'm so happy!
Borders has always viewed RPGs as a very niche product. I remember when I started working there, there was a lot of talk about scrapping RPG sections in stores all together (then, and currently there is a shelf dedicated to RPG stuff only), which is why it surprised me that we bought so heavily into PFRPG and 4e D&D (its still mostly 4e, but there is more PFRPG than WoD in my store currently).
So, to put 3 copies into perspective, theres never more than 1 copy of the WoD stuff on our shelf. Currently 2 copies of 4e PHB2, and 4 of 4e PHB, which is about the standard for those stuff.
The best way to get stuff on the shelf is to buy it when its there though, they watch buying trends and if they see that something sells well in a physical store they will stock the store with more of it (right now all of Paizos book lines are available through the Borders website, but much of it isnt on shelves in stores). If the Borders you go into sells a lot of Pathfinder stuff youll start to see more of it on the shelf in that store.
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Vik, This is an idea I had, which would take a little programming effort on your part, and a little admin work on the store owners part, but should be pretty foolproof.
You use a limited number of distributors, and they keep records, so if you needed, you could confirm at every step that no one is cheating the system....
The system goes like this. A store orders some books. They then send you a copy of their invoice from the distributor (probably with a load of lines blanked out that aren't your stuff....).
The quantity of each book then gives you a number of PDFs that can be personalised to that shop, and added to their paizo account.
The shop then sells the book, and gives the customer the abiolity to get at the pdf (probably a specific link that will just download one of the personalised copies...but possibly a pre-downloaded, and stuck on a branded memory stick job or some such).
Now, I can see a few problems with this, the two biggest being the programming behind the system, and the admin work at paizo, that would be a damn dull job unless it could be automated in some way. Also, the store has some work to do to make this work, and if they are sensible, they will need to keep a list of which customer took which PDF in case it gets released onto the net.....
It does solve all of your concerns about traceability, and fraud though....
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I still think the best way would be like how MMO's sell game time cards. You buy the card and it has a code you can enter once, with a scratch off. So if it is scratched off don't buy it.So if it's scratched off, who paid for it? Probably the party that could least afford to—the retailer. Essentially, then, it becomes something they have to secure like cash, and while the electronic game retailers might be ready to do that, many stores in our industry probably aren't interested in taking on that additional risk.
Don't forget two other major factors here.
1: Many brick-and-mortar retailers think that PDFs are going to put them out of business. Therefore, they're not going to do anything that helps sell PDFs, even if they get a cut of it.
2: Many brick-and-mortar retailers think that online retailers are going to put them out of business. (Which is pretty much what this whole thread is *about*.) And since Paizo is an online retailer, some of them won't do *anything* that requires—or even encourages—their customers to go to our site.
Now, you know and I know that a good retailer who provides excellent customer service and finds ways of adding value has nothing to fear from PDFs and from online stores, but it's still a big, big issue to many of them, and it *has* to be addressed—one way or another—before this problem is solved.
Well the ones I use to buy before we got a CC to use. They came in a box similar in size to game boxes except their was only a card inside. Later they started I believe making them smaller packages. Anyways they would put them out on the shelves of places like Best Buy here locally anyways.
No it is not the most secure way of doing it, only saying it seemed to work and still work for MMO companies. Cost I have no clue about which is why i said I have no clue how fesible it would be. But the cards normally would cost 45 bucks plus tax the same as buying 3 months of game time online.
But I do know each card had a code which could only be tied to a single account. So for paizo it would be. You make a account, enter the code and then have a PDF put in your downloads same as if you bought it on Paizo. Just you would buy the card in the store instead.
Anyway just thought I would mention it, cause honestly I don't think their is really a good or easy way to sell PDF's in stores and this is just the best way that I can think of. So thought I would share.
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I worked at CompUSA before they closed the majority of their stores. The WOW 60 day card had a cost (employees got to buy at cost) of around 24.95 and sold for 29.95. I was tempted to buy it at the store as I still was saving about three dollars a month, but passed as saving three dollars at the time wasn't a big thing for me. Does that help?
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I concede that my above conclusion is the result of one anecdotal interaction with a clerk at my local gaming store, but it does make me wonder if availability in gaming stores is an issue and if Pathfinder is missing some customers by not being on the shelves.
This, like all things capitalist, is merely a matter of supply and demand. I will always buy FLGS when I can. But of the three stores in easy distance, only one reliably stocks PFRPG. While all stock Paizo. (By which I mean they all carry Gamemastery stuff and the like) Life's funny that way.
The one that carries stock of PFRPG does so ONLY because a group meets there twice weekly and buys lots of their stock immediately on arrival.
Supply + Demand + PFRPG = Crazy Delicious.
All hail the mighty capitalist society!! All hail Paizo!!!!