New players need their own Aleena and Bargle.
(I missed out on that beginner adventure, but it always makes me smile to see how many gamers still have a hate on for Bargle)
Heh. Same here. That is, I never played it myself, but I introduced my kids to the game with Aleena and Bargle.
It's an interesting idea, but there'd have to be a concrete enough demand to justify the printing costs.
If it doesn't happen, the other posters' suggestion of printing out relevant sections from either the Website or the .pdf make a lot of sense, and would ultimately serve the same purpose. Yes, it would require a little more work on the part of the player trying to introduce newbs to the game, but copy+paste and a trip to Kinkos hopefully isn't too taxing.
In the meantime, I'll be over here, trying to figure out how much damage Yomiko "The Paper" Readman could do with the full rulebook.
Contributor
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I have to say that what I'd rather see is a "pocket" edition of the book. Mongoose did some for 3rd ed, and Games Workshop produces them for their core games.
Basically strip out the GM notes, probably the magic items, probably the prestige classes, all the stuff that was in the DMG in 3.5. Basically chapters 11-15 of the PFRPG. Put this out as a digest edition or even a softcover and I think you'd see a market, especially as a "spare" player's handbook among people who already have the hardcover.
If you really hand a NEW player a PHB of any size and let him work out his character alone... now that is one heck of an irresponsible GM introducing someone new to the game IMHO.
No-one, ok, make that hardly anyone, is going to play the game just because they get the rulebook as a present - "Toddlers"-version for level 1-5 or not. People are going to play the game because they are introduced to it, people giving them advice and explaining the idiosyncraties of it and help shape new characters and foremost, because it is being shared with them.if you find that..... tiring and inconvenient, now that is hardly Paizo's fault, right ?
So suggesting a book that new characters can comprehend is a sign that I am an irresponsible GM, I see.
The last 2 groups I started were almost entirely composed of brand new gamers. The first group I started 5 years ago was after a 15 year gaming vacation for me. So I didn't know the rules well, my players didn't know the rules at all, and there was literally no resource for amateur gamers, just this big confusing book with little guidance for newbies.
You assume that ultimately everyone who is going to play will have an experienced GM to lean on... that's not always the case.
Just because you don't need something doesn't mean no one needs it or wants it.
BTW, as for the $49.99 price tag, given what a game for an XBOX, PS-3 or WII costs these days, it is a rather fair price.
You missed the whole point on pricing. An inexpensive intro book would be an inexpensive gift or something you could give to new players you are introducing to the game. Most folks are probably not going to drop $50 on a book for someone who might only play the game twice in particular if they won't necessarily be gaming with you?
I don't think it's a problem at all, Pathfinder's main market isn't newbie players, it's grognards who couldn't live with WOTC's shelving of their favorite game system. They're typically older gamers who are more likely to sign up for things like the subscription series which is Paizo's bread and butter. No one company tries to be everything to everyone, they wind up serving no one well.
I think it's a serious problem facing Paizo - how to recruit people to pathfinder who have never played an RPG.
I agree at the moment - there's a ready market for PFRPG. But once we've all bought our copies? How do they make profit in two years or three years time as their largest customer base declines through natural attrition unless they are bringing in new customers to replace them?
Most people being introduced to RPGs are being introduced to DandD. It's easy to switch from 3.5 to PF but it's more of a leap to switch from 4th edition to PF. I think a declining customer base is one of the principal sources of risk to Paizo's survival and it's one I hope they can successfully manage.
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I know two young girls who would flip for a intro version of the PFRPG. Simply put, a scaled book is not an insane request. If I handed an 8 year old and a 10 year old the current tome, they would look at me like I am crazy. I love the book but I can recognize new players might be put off by it. Especially young players who are just mastering chapter books.
I started gaming when I was 8. I was introduced to the game by my cousin. Shortly thereafter I got the red box set for Christmas. While I found the set remarkably easy to understand, I still had my cousin teaching me. That combination was a total success and made me an RPG fanatic for life. If I had been given the 1e PHB, I would have likely been very confused. While I would have learned how the game played, this tactic was a heck of a lot more expedient. And I am not sure I would be as excited about the game as I am today.
When I began introducing people to D&D, throwing the entire PHB at them was daunting. I learned rather quickly that tactic was doomed to failure. I think doing the same with Pathfinder would be like a death sentence to their involvement in future games. When someone barely has a grasp on what an RPG is, the process of teaching from the full version of the game can be difficult.
I actually found the 3e boxed intro games to be an excellent way to get people involved. It straddled the boundary between RPG and standard board game. Once they got the basics down they were ready to cross the next line. And this tactic worked for people from age 8 to age 40.
Not to mention, an intro version would be well suited to give as gifts AND help instruct new players at the table. A product like this isn't designed to be sold to experienced players. But it can be a lifejacket for new players who find themselves overwhelmed by the possibilities. Not to mention, some new players are not prepared to handle a 4-6 hour game session. I find it best to ease them in.
I think there is a demand for this kind of product. While I don't think we will realistically see it for a couple of years, I think it would go a long way to insuring new players enter the game. Sure, very few people are just going to pick it off the shelf and go, but it will assist those of us who make it a mission to introduce players of all ages to the game.
For the moment, I could still use the 3e box set to help introduce new players. I might need to alter things slightly, but it would work. But a Paizo produced set would go a long to insuring the lifespan of the PFRPG. I would go so far as to say some kind of introductory product is a necessity for future life of the game. An ideal situation would involve a truncated rulebook and a short, intro adventure. Perhaps with some guidelines on how to build more, short scenarios. Maybe not right now, but a few years down the road would be ideal.
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But I also beg Paizo not to throw in audio CD's like TSR did for one of the later starter boxes(and the Glantri box). Oh MAN if you could have heard the acting in those...
"Wait... what's a character?"
God I loved those things when I was a kid. I still make fun of 'em to this day. Sadly, my younger brother is the only one who gets the references.
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I agree at the moment - there's a ready market for PFRPG. But once we've all bought our copies? How do they make profit in two years or three years time as their largest customer base declines through natural attrition unless they are bringing in new customers to replace them?
Most people being introduced to RPGs are being introduced to DandD. It's easy to switch from 3.5 to PF but it's more of a leap to switch from 4th edition to PF. I think a declining customer base is one of the principal sources of risk to Paizo's survival and it's one I hope they can successfully manage.
I think new players are being introduced to Pathfinder by their friends running adventures and encouraging them to give it a try. Engaging adventures is something that Paizo excel at, month-by-month, new Adventure Path chapters, new Pathfinder Society scenarios. This is what is bringing in new players, keeping the game alive with great adventures. Without these adventures to be played, a Pathfinder RPG core rulebook would have no market.
But even this is difficult showing a new-comer something the size of Pathfinder RPG core rulebook. I've introduced a few friends and co-workers to the game via Hollows Last Hope, Curse of the Crimson Throne and the Beta. One of these co-workers saw my Pathfinder RPG arrive yesterday and had a flip through it. He commented that he's only read maybe the first chapter of the Beta I gave him, and gave up. I said you're not supposed to read it cover-to-cover, it's like a reference, you only look up the stuff you need during the game. Eg, if you're a Fighter, then skip the Spells and Magic chapter entirely, you don't need it. Just skim it for the stuff that looks interesting and leaps out at you. He's already played several sessions, with pre-gen characters, and me helping him through the game. Players don't need to be expert at the rules, even GMs aren't required to read everything, it's enough to have a working knowledge, through game-play experience if not reading the rules, and look up stuff as you need it.
But that's the resistance a product the size of Pathfinder RPG has on anyone who hasn't grown up with this hobby. When I bought my first red box back in the early 80s, the book was 64 pages, stapled in the middle, and contained everything I needed to play a Fighter, Elf,
Halfling, Magic-user etc to third level, only the weapons, spells, monsters etc a third-level character would need/face. I was entranced, and read it cover-to-cover in one weekend. How might I have reacted to a 575 page tome?
Nothing has to be dumbed-down it just has to take character to third-level, so they can play the first chapter of an Adventure Path or their first 9 Pathfinder Society scenarios. From that point, they've played enough of the game to realise whether:
a) the game's not for them, they didn't waste their money on a brick of a book they're never going to use again;
b) they love the game, but levels 1-3 are all they need, they can always buy the first chapter of the next Adventure Path, or create a fresh Pathfinder Society character, or make up their own adventures using monsters from annually released bestiaries;
c) they love the game, and they'll buy the brick for their level 4+ characters, but the Basic book is still useful to carry to low-level games without needing a wrist-brace, or for introducing other players;
d) they love the game, but Paizo are releasing Oriental Adventures next month, and that's really intriguing, especially after meeting Ameiko in Sandpoint - so will skip the Pathfinder RPG core rulebook, and buy the Oriental Adventures which contains the Wujen and Ninja base classes instead.
My point is that new players need somewhere to start, and while introductions to the game via friends, PDF downloads, or even the Pathfinder Reference Document all serve a purpose, for many people seeing a book in a store (K-mart, not a specialist hobby store), and something that looks inviting, not daunting or overwhelming, is the way to go.
I don't think the game needs to be dumbed-down for beginner players, I think the richness of the artwork and the way the game sparks the imagination are it's selling points. Paizo should use what they've already developed, not dumb it down, but just trim it.
IMO, "simplfying" the rules for a beginner audience was a mistake made by WotC's 3.5 Basic boxed sets. From memory, they used a simplified skill list, simplified movement, the hit points on the pre-gen character sheets were more than you could legally generate using the rules in the box, and I think the armour class might also have been different?
My point is that we should all be playing by the same rules, so you should be able to expand your Pathfinder Basic game with other Pathfinder products without any need for conversion; take your Pathfinder Basic character along to a Pathfinder Society event; or invite your neighbour's kid to your game even though he's using Pathfinder Basic - it all still works together because Pathfinder Basic is still Pathfinder RPG core.
And I'd still carry a Pathfinder Basic book to a low-level game to save my back.
Well...why not do a Pathfinder RPG for Dummies book? They've got a couple for 3.5, at least one for 4E, and I've seen one for GURPS. It seems to be fairly easy to get the Dummies folks to let you do one.
They're certainly lighter than most of the hardcovers.
I agree at the moment - there's a ready market for PFRPG. But once we've all bought our copies? How do they make profit in two years or three years time as their largest customer base declines through natural attrition unless they are bringing in new customers to replace them?
Most people being introduced to RPGs are being introduced to DandD. It's easy to switch from 3.5 to PF but it's more of a leap to switch from 4th edition to PF. I think a declining customer base is one of the principal sources of risk to Paizo's survival and it's one I hope they can successfully manage.
I think new players are being introduced to Pathfinder by their friends running adventures and encouraging them to give it a try. Engaging adventures is something that Paizo excel at, month-by-month, new Adventure Path chapters, new Pathfinder Society scenarios. This is what is bringing in new players, keeping the game alive with great adventures. Without these adventures to be played, a Pathfinder RPG core rulebook would have no market.
But even this is difficult showing a new-comer something the size of Pathfinder RPG core rulebook. I've introduced a few friends and co-workers to the game via Hollows Last Hope, Curse of the Crimson Throne and the Beta. One of these co-workers saw my Pathfinder RPG arrive yesterday and had a flip through it. He commented that he's only read maybe the first chapter of the Beta I gave him, and gave up. I said you're not supposed to read it cover-to-cover, it's like a reference, you only look up the stuff you need during the game. Eg, if you're a Fighter, then skip the Spells and Magic chapter entirely, you don't need it. Just skim it for the stuff that looks interesting and leaps out at you. He's already played several sessions, with pre-gen characters, and me helping him through the game. Players don't need to be expert at the rules, even GMs aren't required to read everything, it's enough to have a working knowledge, through game-play experience if not...
You make some excellent points I think and I really hope this is enough to ensure that the customer base is maintained. (No doubt, my concern is based on a completely unjustified personal bias that the "typical" Paizophile plays in an established group with the same group they've been playing with for years rather than recruiting new players very often. Maybe I should adopt a more activist approach to the problem I perceive).
Obviously Paizo have a lot going for them irrespective of market share - there's always a market for quality. If a DM decides they're going to run Paizo adventures the chances must be pretty good that the group will end up using the pathfinder rules.
I like how big it is.
If you really hand a NEW player a PHB of any size and let him work out his character alone... now that is one heck of an irresponsible GM introducing someone new to the game IMHO.
No-one, ok, make that hardly anyone, is going to play the game just because they get the rulebook as a present - "Toddlers"-version for level 1-5 or not. People are going to play the game because they are introduced to it, people giving them advice and explaining the idiosyncraties of it and help shape new characters and foremost, because it is being shared with them.if you find that..... tiring and inconvenient, now that is hardly Paizo's fault, right ?
So suggesting a book that new characters can comprehend is a sign that I am an irresponsible GM, I see.
The last 2 groups I started were almost entirely composed of brand new gamers. The first group I started 5 years ago was after a 15 year gaming vacation for me. So I didn't know the rules well, my players didn't know the rules at all, and there was literally no resource for amateur gamers, just this big confusing book with little guidance for newbies.
ah...ha. Actually, from my experience, I have _always found it far more productive to introduce new players to the game by asking them what they would like to play, then talk them through the basic choices, and give them a copy of the relevant rules (usually printed from a PDF or the SRD) during the next session. Because someone explaining the rules is far more accessible for clarifying answers than leafing through a book, of whatever size. I never minded, especially since as a GM, it helped me get a feel for new players and their personal views on the game and their expectations - which then helped me to make it more fun for them, by taking these into account.
Even with a more "novice" GM, the simple process of talking someone through the basic rules helps clarify many of the basic structures for the GM as well - because he has to explain them or gets reminders which part of them actually aren't clear to him/her as well... and then reads them up, probably much faster than any player.If you interpret my view as calling you irresponsible.... well, for my part, if I GM I am responsible for providing a good story and easy access to the rules. Which, to me, includes _explaining_ the rules, not handing someone a book to fend for themselves.
As an aside those players who fell in love with the game (80%+) bought the complete rulebook anyway within the next two months.
YMMV
BTW, as for the $49.99 price tag, given what a game for an XBOX, PS-3 or WII costs these days, it is a rather fair price.You missed the whole point on pricing. An inexpensive intro book would be an inexpensive gift or something you could give to new players you are introducing to the game. Most folks are probably not going to drop $50 on a book for someone who might only play the game twice in particular if they won't necessarily be gaming with you?
You obviously travel in different circles, because I never in the last 25 years saw or heard of an RPG-rulebook given as a present to somebody either not already a player, or not having specifically asked for it.
As for marketing purposes - there is no better PR for a product than someone ... hmm enthusiastic maybe a troublesome wording, let's stick with loving... about it introducing you, if you have the interest in the first place. Most of the stuff in life we try because we see someone else enjoying themselves doing it.
Otherwise, no amount of pretty pictures and easy-to-access rules will probably draw someone in if it isn't viewed as fun. Books, graphic novels or movies, or even first-hand witnessing usually prove inspirational enough.
And yes, I started with the "easy to learn" Red-Box and was pretty frustrated of having bought this "limited-use" set from my hard-earned teenage cash. Being US imports to Europe, back then they really costa pretty penny (or rather, Marks).
'nuff being said, I borrowed the money from my grandmother (paid it back too) and bought an AD&D set instead of buying all the "upgrade boxes".
Again, YMMV
Well...why not do a Pathfinder RPG for Dummies book?I realise I'm not their target market, but there's something so condescending about something titled "... for Dummies" that I would never buy it.
Total agreement with that. Basically it is calling someone "too dumb to read the real book and to irrelevant to having the stuff explained too". Real nice way of raising self-esteem
The "Dummies" books are hardly dumb. The D&D for Dummies and Dungeon Masters for Dummies were really very good reading. The title "Dummies" is self-deprecating humor. Being too highbrow to look past a title on the cover is a little...lowbrow.
In order for Pathfinder to survive it will need new players. Not just converted players. Publishing a quick and easy introductory book is a good idea on every level.
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The "Dummies" books are hardly dumb. The D&D for Dummies and Dungeon Masters for Dummies were really very good reading. The title "Dummies" is self-deprecating humor. Being too highbrow to look past a title on the cover is a little...lowbrow.
In order for Pathfinder to survive it will need new players. Not just converted players. Publishing a quick and easy introductory book is a good idea on every level.
The problem with the "For Dummies" route is that it involves licensing with another publishing company (John Wiley & Sons). Something that could easily be avoided if Paizo published its own introductory-level product.
Forget this!
We RPGers need heavy books to carry around, it helps keep us in shape from all the garbage consumption eaten during play.
If I'm going to have a core-rulebook, I want to be able to bludgeon somebody to death with that sucker if need be. I want to be able to drop it from a height of five feet and have it cause lethal impact to any bugs, small rodents, cats, small dogs, and perhaps even children under the age of 14. My backpack should be so exceptionally heavy that if I hold onto the end of it and spin around in circles, the gravitational pull of the earth changes in the process.
Books should be big and heavy! (course I have a laptop for my PDF's :P ) Do some push-ups if you need to....maybe some squat thrusts and pull-ups too. We don't need any of these sissy-books infecting our gaming sessions.
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Troll Lord Games sells a "lite" versions of the rules for Castles & Crusades that cover only the first few levels (1-3 IIRC), and with only a few of the classes that are available in the "full version". So, there certainly IS a market for this sort of product...
Personally, I would have preferred two separate books for the PFRPG (a Player's Handbook and a GM's Guide), but oh well...
-That One Digitalelf Fellow-
I've removed some posts. There is no need for name calling or insults.
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I haven't received the core book yet in the mail, so I went driving around today looking for it at my FLGSs. One place had a sizable stock of them, so I picked one up (holy moly, I thought I grabbed two at first) and started thumbing through it.
It didn't take long for me to look for a shelf to set it down on to keep browsing through it.
This is not a book you curl up with comfortably. This sucker requires intent and devotion.
A lot of people are suggesting a introductory set with the first 3 (or so) levels. But what about an introductory set with 20 levels, but stripping out skills, feats, combat maneuvers, etc, and cutting down the equipment list and spell list to a fraction of the size? Sort of like Labyrinth Lord, but with some semblance of balance, like 3.X?
ah...ha. Actually, from my experience, I have _always found it far more productive to introduce new players to the game by asking them what they would like to play, then talk them through the basic choices....If you really hand a NEW player a PHB of any size and let him work out his character alone... now that is one heck of an irresponsible GM introducing someone new to the game IMHO.
No-one, ok, make that hardly anyone, is going to play the game just because they get the rulebook as a present - "Toddlers"-version for level 1-5 or not. People are going to play the game because they are introduced to it, people giving them advice and explaining the idiosyncraties of it and help shape new characters and foremost, because it is being shared with them.if you find that..... tiring and inconvenient, now that is hardly Paizo's fault, right ?
So suggesting a book that new characters can comprehend is a sign that I am an irresponsible GM, I see.
The last 2 groups I started were almost entirely composed of brand new gamers. The first group I started 5 years ago was after a 15 year gaming vacation for me. So I didn't know the rules well, my players didn't know the rules at all, and there was literally no resource for amateur gamers, just this big confusing book with little guidance for newbies.
Since you didn't seem to have read my post and didn't really address what I said... I'm not sure what to say.
I would kindly suggest you not tell me and the other dozen or so folks on this thread that would like this product for their friends/ family that a market doesn't exist for a product that we would like to see.
As a player & DM, I like this being 1 big book.
But. Most players are not DM's, and I'm curious why the decision was made to combine what has traditionally been 2 books into 1 book. If I were only a player, I would have a hard time w/ this book being my only option.
I haven't made up my mind on a PFRPG "lite" book yet, so no comment...
Chief Creative Officer, Publisher
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Going to post-Gen Con celebration dinner. Almost no time to read. Didn't read any of this thread except the first post.
Our first priority was a full conversion of the core rules. We know it's heavy, and we know it's a daunting prospect for brand new players.
I do plan to address this in some way. Possibly a couple of different ways.
More soon.
Forget this!
We RPGers need heavy books to carry around, it helps keep us in shape from all the garbage consumption eaten during play.
If I'm going to have a core-rulebook, I want to be able to bludgeon somebody to death with that sucker if need be. I want to be able to drop it from a height of five feet and have it cause lethal impact to any bugs, small rodents, cats, small dogs, and perhaps even children under the age of 14. My backpack should be so exceptionally heavy that if I hold onto the end of it and spin around in circles, the gravitational pull of the earth changes in the process.
Books should be big and heavy! (course I have a laptop for my PDF's :P ) Do some push-ups if you need to....maybe some squat thrusts and pull-ups too. We don't need any of these sissy-books infecting our gaming sessions.
My copy of the core rulebook snatched a neighbor's small dog and consumed him in a flurry of pages and muffled yipes. The book has now slinked back into it lair (second shelf of my bookcase) and seems to be weaving a cocoon using the fibers of the Fading Suns books it once shared the shelf with. Should I be alarmed?
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I LOVED the lighter 3.5 PHB from Mongoose. And I would definitely buy an equivalent for PFRPG.
Come to think of it, the PFRPG contains 3 parts which are not used at the same moment :
- things for the GM (which was nicely separated in the DMG in 3.5 and are mostly used when designing a scenario)
- things for building a character (used during character creation)
- things for playing the game (used during play)
This might be a nice way to separate the PFRPG into nice lighter books (with no illustrations, per Mongoose example), though the last two might be a little intertwined.
...it's just too darned heavy!...
Wuss.
;-)
a) not so daunting for new players;
b) more affordable birthday/christmas gift;
c) please give us a lite edition for those occasions we don't need to break our wrists supporting the full tome.
You could always (color) print and bind sections of the PDF. A number of DMs at Gen Con did exactly that and it looked fairly nice although overall the book seemed at least as thick.
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a) not so daunting for new players;
b) more affordable birthday/christmas gift;
c) please give us a lite edition for those occasions we don't need to break our wrists supporting the full tome.You could always (color) print and bind sections of the PDF. A number of DMs at Gen Con did exactly that and it looked fairly nice although overall the book seemed at least as thick.
At this point my players still haven't ordered their copies, so I'll have to consider buying the PDF and printing a players' copy (only the pages relevant to them; I did this with Alpha and Beta, too).
Before the first session I'll train my own copy to bite them viciously if they try to lay their greasy, dirty player fingers on it!
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*tosses a couple coppers into the mix...*
The entire PDF costs $9.99
A 32 page module costs $12.95
A 32 page character creation module would most likely cost more than the PDF...
as i udenrstand it... the problem is not actually the price... but not scaring the players afer seeing the book
I know a few of mine did hen they saw Arcana Evolved in its time.... or Vampire the MAsquerade 3rd Edition...
RPG books, at elast the main oen has become bigger and bigge
1 because the game needs to be compresed in a single books o a DM or Player can have all they need in a single goo...
but years ago White Wolf found and easy solution to help the players and DM AND convicning people to buy their products (or not)
quickstart rules... the basic rules with a sumary of classes/clans/tribes, a summary of the powers, thesummary of the game rules and a quick example...
that was 8 to 16 pages... ok... I know the classes would take half of that... but If you don't offer all the list of spells available for the 1st 3 levels, offer half domains half the gods (something simple and generic and heroic: Iomedae, Cayden or Desna, Erastil, Pharasma, Sarenrae, maybe a couple of more)
a free quickstart (in this case the Beta) does wonders to bring people to your lawn... and tas the ruels are nothing but a taste, many of them finishing buying the game
but 1st they need to understand it.
the OP needs a free Quickstart or basic oroduct (yes, I did learned D&D with the help of the redbox, since then i am in love with the Cleric... which makes me ghate all thos cleric haters...)
A basic version would be great. I gatewayed into the somewhat unapproachable AD&D 1e via the Red Box set. Heck, even the recent Ain't It Cool News review of Pathfinder says one of the major issues with it is that it's not an approachable game for new players.
If you don't want a basic set don't buy one - but in terms of getting new people playing, a 576 page Pathfinder isn't the way to go. I agree this should be a prioritized product.
Do it for the CHILDREN!
(See blog pics.)
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Now that the full version has been released, is there any chance a down-sized version of the Pathfinder RPG core rulebook could be added to the production schedule as a matter of priority?
I've suggested many times for a down-sized version for containing only the rules relevant for 1st to 3rd (or perhaps 5th?) level for new players.
a) not so daunting for new players;
b) more affordable birthday/christmas gift;but now that I have jut picked up my own copy of the Pathfinder RPG core rulebook, I have to say as beautiful and all-encompassing as it is, it's just too darned heavy! Have Paizo customer service department started processing the repetitive strain injury claims yet? I was struggling to read this on public transport on my way back from the store due to the sheer weight, and I know it's going to be a beast to use in-game.
Not wanting to detract from the sheer awesomeness that is Pathfinder RPG, but
c) please give us a lite edition for those occasions we don't need to break our wrists supporting the full tome.
Thanks,
DarkWhite
I know this will seem a bit snarky, but it isn't intended to be so...
The book weighs something like 4 lbs...
I would suggest instead of demanding a lighter book, perhaps do some push ups.
Seriously.
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As a player & DM, I like this being 1 big book.
But. Most players are not DM's, and I'm curious why the decision was made to combine what has traditionally been 2 books into 1 book. If I were only a player, I would have a hard time w/ this book being my only option.
I haven't made up my mind on a PFRPG "lite" book yet, so no comment...
well as a player, I want to know the rules as they apply to me.
Look at the Chapters
1: Getting Started- every player needs that chapter
2: Races- every player needs that chapter
3: Classes- every player needs that chapter
4: Skills- every player needs that chapter
5: Feats- every player needs that chapter
6: Equipment- every player needs that chapter
7: Additional Rules- every player needs that chapter
8: Combat- every player needs that chapter
9: Magic- every player needs that chapter
10: Spells- every player needs that chapter
11: Prestige Classes- every player needs that chapter
12: Gamemastering- NOT every player needs that chapter
13: Environment- every player needs that chapter
14: Creating NPCs- NOT every player needs that chapter
15: Magic Items- every player needs that chapter
That is a whole whopping 24 pages of GM dedicated material.
I seriously doubt 24 pages is going to make a BIG impact on the book's size.
RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16
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My recommendation, free and worth everything you pay for it:
Write up four quick-start booklets, say 16 pages each, for beginning clerics, fighters, rogues, and sorcerers. Each booklet would contain enough rules to give the player options (humans and one or two other races, three or four sorcerous bloodlines, five or six cleric domains; a selection of reasonable feats, a selection of reasonable equipment), a sample combat demonstrating how the character works in a one-on-one fight, and how it works as a member of a low-level team.
The goal would be to provide enough rules for a player to design, equip, and begin play with a starting character, and suggest the larger range of options out there. (For example, the fighter quickstart might end with a couple of paragraphs characaturing the paladin and ranger.)
If you're going to play a fighter, your quick-start rules don't need to include spells. But they do need to explain the combat options that combat feats allow.
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RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16
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well as a player, I want to know the rules as they apply to me.Look at the Chapters
1: Getting Started- every player needs that chapter...
11: Prestige Classes- every player needs that chapter
12: Gamemastering- NOT every player needs that chapter
13: Environment- every player needs that chapter
14: Creating NPCs- NOT every player needs that chapter
15: Magic Items- every player needs that chapter
Krome, you make a good point, in general, but:
Chapter 11: Prestige Classes are options the GM allows or not. Why should the players need that?
Chapter 13: That's stuff that's handled by the GM, same as statistics for goblins and trolls.
Chapter 15: That's also DM stuff.
Yes?
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I'm actually very happy with the big ol' sized book, and most of my gaming group are in awe of it. In fact, a couple who were kinda meh on the idea of picking up the hard copy have changed their mind after flipping through it. But I should probably insert the caveat that my group is experienced, and big, heavy, nasty, family-bible-thick books of rules with lush art are more of a source of pride to them than a negative.
I can see the opposite side of the argument for new and never-before gamers, about how a huge thick book of rules might be intimidating to a first-timer... but then again, it seems to me that the rules themselves can be a little intimidating if you've never done 3.5 or PFRPG before (or haven't played any RPGs at all), anyway, no matter the format or heft of the rulebook. My 3.5 PHB is half the weight and size of the PFRPG, and I still know newbs whose brains throb when you start working with them on Character Creation.
Krome, you make a good point, in general, but:
Chapter 11: Prestige Classes are options the GM allows or not. Why should the players need that?
Chapter 13: That's stuff that's handled by the GM, same as statistics for goblins and trolls.
Chapter 15: That's also DM stuff.
Yes?
I was actually going to give the same response than Chris. I agree completely.
For many players, the main needed chapters are just races, classes, skills, feats, equipment, combat basics, magic basics and spells. Basically a Player's Handbook.The rest is optional. Supplements.
So a lighter version of the Pathfinder RPG could be useful for many.
Well, i know i would buy one.