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Publishers in the future really need to put more pressure on authors to finish series in a timely manner.
No, they really don’t.
No one has more of a vested interest in releasing a book series than the author herself. If an author says she needs more time to work, then putting pressure on that author can only result in a rushed, inferior product.
People who get stressed out by the amount of time it takes an author to finish writing a series should probably not start reading series that aren’t finished. There are more excellent books on the shelves right now than any one person could read in her entire life.
you would be waiting a long time. As of now it 17 years since he wrote the first book. It took Tolkien 12 to finish his series and that was during the war. In between we are all free to read other things.
I truly believe he wont finish the series. He doesnt seem to be in the best of health, hes constantly traveling and he has many other hobbies. I'm just glad there will be closure one way or another.
For a trilogy i would think a 5-7 year window wouldnt be unreasonable. If i were the publisher i would require updates throughout the year, place limits on other activitys and extend if needed. Sure theres creativity involved but at the same time publisher has deadlines as well.
I would argue that the last book in the series were not as good as the first books (my opinion). It feels like its lost momementum and even without time constraints the writing has not improved. If you disagreee i would be happy to be reminded of the great moments of the last book.
Granted, it took Susanna Clarke 10 years to write Jonathan Strange and Mr. Norrel, and we haven't had a novel from her since. Of course, JS&MN was a masterpiece, and she never promised another novel, and she published a bunch of short stories to appease the hardcore fans like me, so maybe that's a poor analogy.
In contrast, Jack Vance wrote the Durdane triology in two years, and the third volume was, if anything, infinitely superior to the first. The 4-volume Tschai series took two years, and the 3rd book is the highlight. Lyonesse took him 6 years total, and Cadwal 5. His 5-volume Demon Princes series is the oddball, having been completed on a random basis from 1964-1981.
Yeah, end of 2015 -- in a year and a half. In the meantime, if it follows true to form, it will be pushed back another six months, and then another year, and then two... I've stopped reading because, honestly, I'm pretty sure he's not going to finish the series. But that's up to GRRM; his books, his pace; no one can reasonably tell him otherwise.
eh...every writer has a different process in how they write. What works for one author would kill the creativity of another.
I would rather he take his time and produce a quality product. I rather agree with Neil Gaiman's quote regarding people telling him to hurry up.
And honestly...if you are worried about the author dieing before he finishes, than you should just never ever read anything that isn't complete. A perfectly healthy author in his thirties could still die in a car accident through random fate.
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A perfectly healthy author in his thirties could still die in a car accident through random fate.
True, but an author known to take 7+ years per installment, who looks like he'll be very lucky to live another two, is a statistically overwhelmingly greater risk. I would think that, for a reader, a 0.01% chance vs. a >50% chance is probably significant enough to influence their decision.
That said, it's his call. If GRRM prefers to allow HBO to finish his story for him, then so be it -- that's his call to make, not ours.
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Then again, we have to consider Robert Jordan as well -- in which case there is no finished product.
Apart from...the finished product?
Sanderson finished the series off, but based closely on Jordan's notes and with a fair bit of Jordan-written material scattered through the conclusion (including the very last chapter). So that's not a terrific comparison.
you would be waiting a long time. As of now it 17 years since he wrote the first book. It took Tolkien 12 to finish his series and that was during the war.
18 years since the first book came out. 23 years since he started writing the series (in July 1991).
The comparison to Tolkien is a little weak. THE LORD OF THE RINGS, the whole thing, is only slightly longer than A STORM OF SWORDS and A DANCE WITH DRAGONS by themselves. On pages-written-per-year, Martin is way ahead of Tolkien who often took months on end off because he didn't know what to do next with the story. And of course Tolkien took 66 years to write what turned out to be a relatively short 450-page book (THE SILMARILLION), published after his death.
I truly believe he wont finish the series. He doesnt seem to be in the best of health
GRRM is in pretty good health. Obviously, he's overweight (though he was actually at his biggest around the time AFFC came out, and is down on his weight since then) but that doesn't mean he's going to drop dead tomorrow. GRRM is, obviously, hugely wealthy and has a very good health plan. He and his doctor also monitor his weight (and he points out on his blog that he makes efforts to lose weight, which are hampered by his job, which is not conducive to it).
There certainly isn't a 50% chance he's going to die in the next two years! I have family members who were larger than George who happily made it into their late 80s and passed away from totally unrelated causes. Gene Wolfe is a bit on the rotund side and is now in his early 80s. Jack Vance was fairly big (not as big as GRRM though) and made it to 96. You also had Robert Jordan, who spent quite a few years overweight and then lost most of it on a strict diet, only to almost immediately develop a totally unrelated cardiac condition and pass away at 59. Or Aaron Allston, who appeared to be in good shape before having a series of heart attacks and dying at 53.
For a trilogy i would think a 5-7 year window wouldnt be unreasonable.
That depends on the size of the books. Three 300-page books are a very different prospect from three 1,000-page ones.
If i were the publisher i would require updates throughout the year, place limits on other activitys and extend if needed. Sure theres creativity involved but at the same time publisher has deadlines as well.
GRRM sends each chapter, as it is finished, to his editor who edits it and requests changes on the spot before it is finalised. So the process isn't that the whole book is done in one go, edited in one go and then published, but a constant, ongoing back-and-forth between the writer and editor.
she never promised another novel, and she published a bunch of short stories to appease the hardcore fans like me, so maybe that's a poor analogy.
Clarke did say that she was writing a sequel focusing on less-prominent characters almost as soon as JS&MN came out, and there has been no word on it since.
In contrast, Jack Vance wrote the Durdane triology in two years, and the third volume was, if anything, infinitely superior to the first. The 4-volume Tschai series took two years, and the 3rd book is the highlight. Lyonesse took him 6 years total, and Cadwal 5. His 5-volume Demon Princes series is the oddball, having been completed on a random basis from 1964-1981.
Well, there's also DYING EARTH, which was written over a period of 40 years, with a fairly substantial cliffanger between Books 2 and 3 that was left hanging for 16 years (and Vance even allowed a desperate other author to resolve it as a stopgap through official and published fanfiction before he continued the series).
All that talk about author publishing speed and lifespans makes me worry about my own writings and aspirations...
There are rumors of a new Winds of Winter Tyrion sample chapter being released some time today.
Oh god yes pls
It's out, but was released as an exclusive for the A World of Ice and Fire app from Random House (which also includes a big update which includes all of the official world maps and information on the new locations).
I suspect it'll be an exclusive for a while (3-6 months?) and then we'll see it on GRRM's website.
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Interview from today's Göteborgs-Posten* about the World of Ice and Fire book and its writers that I translated because I had some time to kill.
For eight years, a Swedish couple in Nödinge have been writing a book together with the fantasy legend George RR Martin. We meet them for a talk about the new book, George RR Martin’s struggle against the clock, and season four of Game of Thrones.
His book suite A Song of Ice and Fire has been sold in over 25 million copies, become one of the world’s biggest TV-series, and conclusively made fantasy a household genre. But George RR Martin has a problem.
On Monday 7 April is the premiere for season four of Games of Thrones in C More and HBO Nordic, and the experts are in agreement: the TV-epic will soon catch up with the author’s books. What happens when the world’s most popular TV-series lacks an ending?
To love George RR Martin’s books requires patience. A Game of Thrones, the first book of seven, was started in 1991. 23 years later the world still waits for the series’ sixth part. According to the publisher it won’t be finished this year under any circumstances.
For millions of fans, the hope for an update instead rests with Elio Garcia and Linda Antonsson in Nödinge outside Gothenburg.For 16 years they’ve been cooperating with the impulsive writer and meticulously catalogued everything to do with the book series at westeros.org, the world’s largest resource for fans of the series. That work now results in a book, The World of Ice and Fire, written together with George Martin himself.
“Me and Linda met in 1995 through a ‘Lord of the Rings’ roleplaying game on the net. It was her who introduced me: ‘There’s an amazing book you have to read,’” says Elio Garcia, who moved to Sweden from Miami in 1999.
Today the couple work full-time with the fantasy world of Westeros. They’re in constant contact with the writer since several years back. The couple fact check drafts, are advisors to the TV-series, lecture about Fantasy at the University of Gothenburg, and work on The World of Ice and Fire since 2004, which is a history of Martin’s world in the style of Tolkien’s Silmarillion.
“Our thought was to create a cohesive story about Westeros’s history from the books. It’d go fast, George would just answer a few short questions,” says Linda Antonsson.
“We were so wrong! On the first question about the history of the Targaryens George wrote over 100 000 words. We asked about an island that’s mentioned in passing and got 30 pages. George’s imagination! Once he get started he can’t stop,” says Elio Garcia and shakes his head.The book that the publisher wanted for 2005 has taken eight years to finish.
And George Martin has become infamous for his pace of work. His latest book became so long it had to be split into two and took twelve years to finish. With the TV-series the criticism has reached its zenith, and in recent years “Write you bastard” have perhaps become the most common web-comment to interviews with the writer. When the impulsive Martin started a Science-Fiction cinema in Santa Fe instead of writing this winter, it caused a storm of criticism on the net.It was also with the TV-series that the books stopped being a subculture for fantasy fans, according to Elio Garcia.
“George loves fans and fantasy conventions. We who attends them are his people. Before, he could show up and knight people, or organize haggis hunts in Scotland. But if George shows up now the conventions are stormed by thousands of fans of the series…”
Linda Antonsson sees a parallel between the audience shift and the increasing criticism. Experienced fantasy readers are used to waiting.
“We’re very worried by the TV-series moving so fast as well. That it gets HBO’s ending, not George’s,” says Elio Garica.
But there’s still three years until the series is supposed to be finished. Even the most unpredictable fantasy writer should be able to get one last book out of himself in that time, when a million industry is at stake. Elio Garcia shrugs his shoulders and smiles.
“George love deadlines. He loves the sound they make as they swish by.”
*Sweden's third largest morning paper, centred on Gothenburg with suburbs and and the Göta Älv river valley.
I'm sure Elio would have namechecked Douglas Adams for the deadline comment, which is where that one came from :-)
I couldn't remember the exact wording of the quote and didn't have any internets handy while translating () - and since it's a translation I didn't want to add anything not in the original text.
And I also miss Douglas Adams
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who looks like he'll be very lucky to live another two, is a statistically overwhelmingly greater risk. I would think that, for a reader, a 0.01% chance vs. a >50% chance is probably significant enough to influence their decision.
Wow, ummm ... just cause he's overweight? There's alot of overweight people in the world ... and some of them just might live longer then another two years.
If you're not happy by all means switch to another series - there are quite a few out there that are awesome. Give him a break - each of his books are the size of a trilogy from one of those other series.
I think everyone involved knows the deal, to be honest. He may well die before finishing, but that doesn't change anything about what he has written already. HBO knew who he was before signing the contracts, and so did he. The readers know very well by now the risks involved in hoping for an ending. For all these people, the values involved outweigh the risks. I honestly don't see anyone with cause to complain.
And hey, if he does die before the end, isn't it a pretty good thing that he told someone (HBO) how it would end?
Another great episode. Anyone know the exact timeline when Jaime/Robert etc took the throne and when the story takes place now. I dont remember Jaime's age coming up in the books but i would have to assume its been 20 years?
Everyone's younger in the books. I don't have then in front of me atm, but I think the first book is set 13 years after the war. As I remember, Ned Stark's in his thirties in the books, and, nothing against seeing him the role, Sean Bean is most assuredly not at this point.
(How do people who live on a planet without regular seasons even invent the concept of a year? You'd have to ask GRRM himself.)
Arya is developing well. Can't wait for her to get where she's going!
Everyone's younger in the books. I don't have then in front of me atm, but I think the first book is set 13 years after the war. As I remember, Ned Stark's in his thirties in the books, and, nothing against seeing him the role, Sean Bean is most assuredly not at this point.
(How do people who live on a planet without regular seasons even invent the concept of a year? You'd have to ask GRRM himself.)
That's a really interesting point.
I'm trying to figure out what kind of an orbit the planet must have, to have variable seasons on a year-to-year basis. Realistically, there would have to be a binary star system involved, and some kind of weird figure-8 thing going on, but the books don't mention two suns, and even in such a system the progression would be predictable, not random. So the real answer has to be "it's magic," because physics doesn't really allow it.
In the book Jaime is born in 266AL and Robert's War runs from 281 to 283 so he would have been 17 then. The series starts in 298 and Joffrey's wedding will take place as year 300 starts, so in the book he is around 34.
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I'm trying to figure out what kind of an orbit the planet must have, to have variable seasons on a year-to-year basis. Realistically, there would have to be a binary star system involved, and some kind of weird figure-8 thing going on, but the books don't mention two suns, and even in such a system the progression would be predictable, not random. So the real answer has to be "it's magic," because physics doesn't really allow it.
For a while there I was trying to come up with an answer involving tidal locking, axial tilt and no little orbital wobble, but even an astrophysics neophyte such as myself is fairly sure any planet like that would have torn itself up into an asteroid belt millennia before the Andals had a chance to invade Westeros, never mind Aegon the conquerer. So yeah, "it's magic" works.
Anyhow, I enjoyed last night's episode. Wedding bells next week, fun-fun.
Next week should be most entertaining.
I'm trying to figure out what kind of an orbit the planet must have, to have variable seasons on a year-to-year basis. Realistically, there would have to be a binary star system involved, and some kind of weird figure-8 thing going on, but the books don't mention two suns, and even in such a system the progression would be predictable, not random. So the real answer has to be "it's magic," because physics doesn't really allow it.
I think when asked, that's Mr. Martins position.
I think they nailed Prince Oberyn Martell, The Viper of Dorne. He's one of my favorite minor characters.
I'm trying to figure out what kind of an orbit the planet must have, to have variable seasons on a year-to-year basis. Realistically, there would have to be a binary star system involved, and some kind of weird figure-8 thing going on, but the books don't mention two suns, and even in such a system the progression would be predictable, not random. So the real answer has to be "it's magic," because physics doesn't really allow it.
Orbit is less important than axis.
There was a hint in the books about there once being two moons, if something happened to one of the moons that could send the planet wobbling on a somewhat random pattern.
Orbit is less important than axis.
In theory a huge axial precession on a comparatively short (years vs. millenial) time scale might do it, but again it would be very predictable -- and disastrous. The earth's precession is about 26,000 years, so it's not measurable in terms of Westeros time, but it's also gradual enough that it doesn't cause widespread catastrophe -- just a series of ice ages and interglacial periods. If the precession occurs on a very short time span (so that you'd see noticeable changes in the length of winter from year to year), then the effects would be drastic enough to cause mass extinctions, and the periodicity would also be noticeable on human time scales.
As far as a lunar catastrophe, again the tendency for objects in space is to fall into more or less uniform orbits.
That was a great season premier!
I'm a bit foggy on the spoiler rules for this thread (it's been going for a while :p) So...
From the publisher, re: seasons
It’s been a popular topic on the A Song of Ice and Fire forums, this whole matter of what causes the weird seasons. Suggested theories have ranged as far as suggesting dark planets in the near vicinity, perhaps a binary star, and more. But it’s rather fruitless; the author is prosaic on the topic and has provided the direct answer: it’s magic, trying to figure out a scientific, realistic explanation is bound to fail.
That seems clear enough!
were there 2 swords in the book? I really have to go back and re-read that book
As far as a lunar catastrophe, again the tendency for objects in space is to fall into more or less uniform orbits.
Over time yes. But, what if its still recent, astronomically speaking (which it would be if its recent enough for a legend to still be around) Something might look regular with say, calculus, but if you have 2 or 3 variables in there its going to look random. We don't know how advanced the citadel has gotten with its astronomy.
Avoiding a (geologic?) catastrophe would probably be easier to figure out than how the hell the herbivores are all lasting through 3 years of winter..
We don't know how advanced the citadel has gotten with its astronomy.
On Earth, the neolithic builders of stonehenge were accurately predicting eclipses. The Maya invented a base 20 number system specifically for astronomy, and the Dresden Codex had tables of predicted eclipses, appearances of the morning star (venus), retrograde motions of mars, etc.
Given that Westeros is far more advanced than either of these, and that their survival is more immediately linked to the seasons, it would be absurd if they weren't at least that advanced.
But if long winters are a direct result of magic cold spreading from the White Walkers, for example, then astronomy has no bearing on the seasons and it makes no difference how advanced it is. And given that one of the former moons was actually a giant dragon egg, one shouldn't take actual astronomy too seriously when dealing with ASOIAF.
were there 2 swords in the book? I really have to go back and re-read that book
Yep, they made two swords out of Ice.
Oathkeeper and whatever nonsense name Joffrey came up for his..
We don't know how advanced the citadel has gotten with its astronomy.On Earth, the neolithic builders of stonehenge were accurately predicting eclipses. The Maya invented a base 20 number system specifically for astronomy, and the Dresden Codex had tables of predicted eclipses, appearances of the morning star (venus), retrograde motions of mars, etc.
Given that Westeros is far more advanced than either of these, and that their survival is more immediately linked to the seasons, it would be absurd if they weren't at least that advanced.
But if long winters are a direct result of magic cold spreading from the White Walkers, for example, then astronomy has no bearing on the seasons and it makes no difference how advanced it is. And given that one of the former moons was actually a giant dragon egg, one shouldn't take actual astronomy too seriously when dealing with ASOIAF.
But they have comets! Something as regularly occurring as a comet suggests a whole bunch stuff in a nerd's brain, astronomically speaking.
More seriously (but not that seriously, cause, y'know, magic) if the seasonal variation were tied to the axial tilt, long summers would be as bad as long winters. Westeros has just been through an 8 year summer, and everyone has spent the whole time growing food to store for the winter because the middle 4 years weren't made up of the sun beating down on drought stricken fields for 24 hours a day.
Did they ever even name Ice in the TV series? I'm not sure they did, but I loved the way the intro left no doubt whatsoever as to what was going on there.
(How do people who live on a planet without regular seasons even invent the concept of a year? You'd have to ask GRRM himself.)
They simply count the number of times the moon circles the planet: twelve times makes one year. The jury's out on if this means their year is slightly shorter than ours or if Martinworld's lunar orbits fit the year more exactly than ours do.
Another great episode. Anyone know the exact timeline when Jaime/Robert etc took the throne and when the story takes place now. I dont remember Jaime's age coming up in the books but i would have to assume its been 20 years?
In the TV series, Season 1 is 17 years after Robert's Rebellion. Season 3 is two years later, so 19. Season 4 is still 19 until we hear otherwise, but yeah, getting on for 20. Tywin is also probably rounding up a couple of years for Jaime's age.
In the books, the first novel opens 15 years after the Rebellion and by the end of ADWD between two-and-a-half and three years have passed.
(How do people who live on a planet without regular seasons even invent the concept of a year? You'd have to ask GRRM himself.)They simply count the number of times the moon circles the planet: twelve times makes one year. The jury's out on if this means their year is slightly shorter than ours or if Martinworld's lunar orbits fit the year more exactly than ours do.
Well, but, if they didn't have a regular season cycle to measure the moon cycles against, what sets the common standard of how many times the moon circles the planet. Look, GRRM hasn't even said, maybe the planet's not spherical at all, maybe it's got more of a Pratchett shape to it.
Happy to see the return of Ser Dontos.
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were there 2 swords in the book? I really have to go back and re-read that bookYep, they made two swords out of Ice.
Ice, was the ancestral two handed greatsword of House Stark.
The Lannisters lost their ancestral sword Brightroar when King Tommen II Lannister of the Rock sailed to Valyria and never returned.
Following Eddard Stark's execution in King's Landing, Ice was melted down and reforged into two longswords (those being Widow's Wail and Oathkeeper).
Look, GRRM hasn't even said, maybe the planet's not spherical at all, maybe it's got more of a Pratchett shape to it.
Which would involve more magic, because real-world planets are spheres/oblate spheroids because of physics, not just randomly. Even Larry Niven's supposedly "hard sci-fi" Ringworld requires unbreakable, unbendable metal (aka magic).
I know GRRM has said that "it's magic" and it's just an interesting feature of the world, but here's how I've somewhat interpreted it:
You still have the normal seasons each year (axial tilt) but you have periods of time ("Winter" and "Summer") where the planet is either closer to or farther away from the sun. So you'll still have Summer during the "Winter" years, but with much diminished temperatures and Winter during "Winter" is brutal, especially further up North (or far South). Hence it's difficult to grow many crops during Winter, even if you're closer to the equator, due to the low temperatures and impossible further up North.
What causes these irregular orbits is another thing, though, but can also be due to other celestial bodies. That would affect the tides too, though.
you have periods of time ("Winter" and "Summer") where the planet is either closer to or farther away from the sun.
Kepler's Laws of Planetary Motion: orbit is an ellipse, with the sun at one focus. The further the mean distance from the sun, the longer (less circular) the ellipse... and the colder the planet, and the longer it takes to orbit once. Still very predictable.
Look at Neptune, in our solar system: it takes about 165 earth years to orbit once, the orbital path is still nearly cicular, and the mean surface temp is -200oC. Give it a much hotter sun and further away, and the planet will be too far to support life at aphelion, or else too close at perihelion.
I love the fact that although there is plenty to talk about in the season 4 premiere episode, most of the narrative on this page is about the magic seasons and planet wobble.
Can I just ask, if I haven't read the books, should I avoid this thread? As there's been 2 very minor spoilers so far, and wouldn't want to hit a big one.
Also, a reverse spoiler for the book!
GAME OF THRONES renewed for TWO more seasons. Because that's how HBO rolls.
Look, GRRM hasn't even said, maybe the planet's not spherical at all, maybe it's got more of a Pratchett shape to it.
Actually, he has. People asked this years ago and GRRM said it was a spherical planet, and possibly slightly larger than Earth.
I might be mistaken here, but I'm pretty sure that the seasons are ONLY wobbly in Westeros, so the concept of the "year" comes from elsewhere in the world.
Nope, Essos suffers from them as well. The winters are just not as noticeable as Essos is located further south. But if you read the latest book, there's reports of canals freezing over and the grass of the plains starting to die.
So we will definitely be getting Winds of Winter material. Interesting.