huh?Aff, that is amusing indeed.
** spoiler omitted **
That was for Matthiew he knows what it means :)
One observation: multi-class monks lose their effective flurry of blows; as far as I can tell, this is the first time in 3.x D&D when a character's Base Attack Bonus is redefined as something else (in this case, Monk class levels). So, a 4th/4th Level Paladin / Monk has a normal DAD of 7, but, when flurrying, has a BAB of only 4 (and then applies a -2...).Hi, Chris. I read it as "the monk portion of the BAB is equal to monk level..." So your paladin 4/monk 4 would have BAB +7, +8 when flurrying.
Yes, I assume it's written in the same (clunky but unambiguous) way as the Pathfinder Beta monk's Maneuver Training class ability.
One other thought: I hope that the monk doesn't have to be holding two numchucks if he wants to do a numchuck flurry of blows now. That would be a step backwards (especially for my longspear wielding monk...).
Linked Sajan, the kung-fu fighter!.So, to sum up, changes from beta:
4. Better BAB but only when flurrying
Wouldn't it have just been easier/simpler to give monks there level as BAB when using monk weapons rather then when they flurry with them?
I can't see the benifit to restricting it to flurry only.
Wouldn't it have just been easier/simpler to give monks there level as BAB when using monk weapons rather then when they flurry with them?
Or just give them full BAB. Period.
Naw...too simple. :-)
I think it worth noting that unless I'm mistaken about the feats, or there's been a change in prerequisites, Sajan wouldn't have a feat at 8th level to take Greater Disarm (BAB prereq +6, per forum Beta release)... but who cares, it's cool! :)Perhaps it was taken as a monk bonus feat(no need to fulfill prerequisites).A very very good point - it could have been added to the list gained at 6th level... except (w/out change) Improved Disarm is only added at that point. He couldn't then take it with the 7th level feat, and w/out Combat Expertise (if *that* prereq remained) he couldn't have taken it earlier, unless Improved Disarm got moved down on the list (which would make a lot of sense).
So possibilities are:
A slight error.
Feat acquired at 8th level.
Improved Disarm allowed as a Bonus feat earlier than 6th level.
Combat Expertise no longer a prerequisite for Improved Disarm.
...The Monk however will probably still have a problems hitting his foes. 3/4 BAB and he needs Str, Dex, Con and Wis.
And this might turn out to be a big problem. ......or not
I find it interesting that no one has yet complained about the ki point pool vs the bardic music pool.
To me it's apples and oranges. I really like the ki pool system. I think it both standarizes and adds to a collection of a monk abilities that previously always felt a bit like throw-ins.
I think monks, along with paladins, are the most improved classes over 3.x (and also happen to be two of my favorite classes overall). I especially like that they really will be combat maneuver specialists, and I'm excited to try the new flurry. Nice work.
Linked Sajan, the kung-fu fighter!.
Stunning fist is now cool. It's free, and it has upgrades. Very nice.
More AC!
More feats!
I like that the monk will attack more often and with greater accuracy. Nice gamist crunch. Now I'm looking for someone to help me wrap some simulationist fluff around the notion that somehow monks are more accurate when they flurry than they are when they don't. Everyone else, with a certain BAB, gets a certain number of attacks. It's the same for everyone. But monks, they have a special class feature to attack so fast that they get extra attacks. Great! Seems to me that attacking that fast might mean more hits, but it also might mean more misses. But the new monk ability only uses the better BAB when they flurry, not when they make normal attacks.
Help me with the fluff please!
As others have mentioned, it is a style thing. When making a single attack as a standard action the Monk has not had time to set up his routine and as a result the blow is less likely to land. However, if given the time to make a full attack action the monk is able to incorporate feints and twirls to distract opponents and change up his angles of attack so that each blow is more likely to land. The flurry is more likely to hit simply because the flurry is more difficult to defend against.
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Monk is awesome, though I think flurry of blows is my favourite change!
Still, not enough given all the bonuses the other classes are getting.
First, monks serve as melee fighters and simply should get d10 hit dice. Come on, Rangers are d10! Looks like this may be a house rule. (Hell, it wasn't even playtested!)
Second, I had hoped Paizo would have finally acknowledged that not all monks are trained in the same manner. Instead of having "monk weapons" monks should have been able to adopt one of the fighter's weapon groups as his/her special weapons. (And a monk should be able to flurry with all special weapons.) This could have opened the door to a new Bonus Feat, too: Weapon Group Proficiency.
In the end, I like what Paizo did for the monk but I also see some areas of oversight that are leading to house rules I want my group to implement.
Linked Sajan, the kung-fu fighter!.
DM_Blake said:
Help me with the fluff please!
Here's your fluff.
As I see it Flurry of Blows represents more than just punching a lot, it represents a combination of strikes that are practiced over and over (and over and over) again.
Each blow sets up the next, both foot work/body positioning wise and by positioning the opponent.
Example:
Up jab - lifts opponents head above guard while bringing you in close so your...
Right Hook - can connect with the now raised chin, while shifting your weight down so your...
Left Hook to body - can connect with the body while your opponents hands go up to protect the head, while keeping your weight down so your...
Uppercut - can go through your opponents guard as it lowers to protect the body, as you shift your weight upwards.
The non-flurry attacks don't have the combined advantages that a flurry does.
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Does anyone else think that 16th level is a bit late to get (the ability to bestow) blindness/deafness? I can't help but think that by that level I would always have something better to do with my turn. I do understand that it is an effect possibly bestowed with damage. Maybe there is something else I'm not considering?
Glad to see they kept the Short Sword.... but why hasn't the spiked chain been added to the Monk list...
Many Martial Arts weapons are similar to or nearly identical to the spiked chain in their usage...for instance the manriki gusari, several other weapons are also extermely similar and would require a fighting style like that of the spiked chain...sode gurama, kusari gama, chijiriki just to name a few...all of these weapons are use for tripping, entangling and striking @ range like a spiked chain...
Also...why is the spike chain not treated as a dual weapon...at close range it should be able to be wielded with both hands
Lol...and lets not even start on the Chinese Broad Sword, and Scholars Sword(Tai Chi Sword) both of which are amongst the weapons used in the extensively in martail arts, including the Shao Lin Order
Does anyone else think that 16th level is a bit late to get (the ability to bestow) blindness/deafness? I can't help but think that by that level I would always have something better to do with my turn. I do understand that it is an effect possibly bestowed with damage. Maybe there is something else I'm not considering?
Stunning Fist doesn't cost you a turn; it's a free action that goes along with your normal set of attacks.
Of course, the fact that it's a Fort save means that quite a few high CR creatures will resist it, but there's no "opportunity cost" to using it.
Between this and other previews, it seems like the designers had consistency in mind when they put the game together. Several corner cases are getting folded together, such as the flurry of blows/two-weapon fighting comparison here. As someone who hates looking at rulebooks, that's a plus for me.
I get a frown on my face whenever I see point mechanics for character powers, though. That said, most of the stuff the monk would spend points on seem to be utility powers rather than their bread and butter combat stuff, so it probably won't slow down gameplay that much.
Linked Sajan, the kung-fu fighter!.
DM_Blake said:
Help me with the fluff please!
Here's your fluff.
As I see it Flurry of Blows represents more than just punching a lot, it represents a combination of strikes that are practiced over and over (and over and over) again.
Each blow sets up the next, both foot work/body positioning wise and by positioning the opponent.
Example:
Up jab - lifts opponents head above guard while bringing you in close so your...
Right Hook - can connect with the now raised chin, while shifting your weight down so your...
Left Hook to body - can connect with the body while your opponents hands go up to protect the head, while keeping your weight down so your...
Uppercut - can go through your opponents guard as it lowers to protect the body, as you shift your weight upwards.The non-flurry attacks don't have the combined advantages that a flurry does.
7 HIT COMBO - 53%!
7 HIT COMBO - 53%!Linked Sajan, the kung-fu fighter!.
DM_Blake said:
Help me with the fluff please!
Here's your fluff.
As I see it Flurry of Blows represents more than just punching a lot, it represents a combination of strikes that are practiced over and over (and over and over) again.
Each blow sets up the next, both foot work/body positioning wise and by positioning the opponent.
Example:
Up jab - lifts opponents head above guard while bringing you in close so your...
Right Hook - can connect with the now raised chin, while shifting your weight down so your...
Left Hook to body - can connect with the body while your opponents hands go up to protect the head, while keeping your weight down so your...
Uppercut - can go through your opponents guard as it lowers to protect the body, as you shift your weight upwards.The non-flurry attacks don't have the combined advantages that a flurry does.
Yes, now Sajan has become a 'Super-Sajan' !
(or 'Super-Sayajan' ...)
Too bad he is shaved and we cannot see his hair changing to bright blonde !!!
Now, if only he starts charging 'Kaaa-meee-haaa-meee-HA!!!' ...
"At 4th level, Sajan gained the ability to spend 1 point as a swift action to make an additional attack as part of a flurry of blows (at his highest bonus), increase his speed by +20 ft. for 1 round, or to grant himself a +4 dodge bonus to his AC"
So the Monk has the same problem as the Barbarian.
Activating the +4 dodge bonus is a swift action and using dodge is a swift action. So these two can't be used the same round....unless
Could it be dodge now is always on unless you are flatfooted? Thoughts?
We also repriced the item to make it a bit more attractive for our kung fu masters (this one only costs 5,000 gp to add flaming to all his natural attacks, but the higher level version received a discount as well). A similar change was made to bracers of armor, allowing them to grant special armor qualities, such as light fortification.
Implications? Everyone getting fortification stuff now making the rogue a suck class? OK the armor bonus don't stack with other armor. Who cares if you got a fullplate. You just want the fortification. Or did I misunderstand this?
....and the crit feats will be useless if the dumpd the prise.
....yes I hate fortification almost as much as animated shiled...or even more.
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Okay, maybe I'm just negative, but I think the monk is kind of rediculous. I'm sorry, yes it's a huge improvement over 3.5, I'm not gonna argue that at all, all solid improvements.
But I'm sorry, it just seems silly to me to say, "the monk can't have a full BAB" and then for every important class feature of the monk say, for this feature he's treated as having a full BAB. I'm sorry to not be happy that the monk is much improved. but this is just a bad way to do it to me. Needlessly complicated.
We also repriced the item to make it a bit more attractive for our kung fu masters (this one only costs 5,000 gp to add flaming to all his natural attacks, but the higher level version received a discount as well). A similar change was made to bracers of armor, allowing them to grant special armor qualities, such as light fortification.
Implications? Everyone getting fortification stuff now making the rogue a suck class? OK the armor bonus don't stack with other armor. Who cares if you got a fullplate. You just want the fortification. Or did I misunderstand this?
Would that mean you could make bracers of armor +1 and hvy fort, wearing them under +5 full plate of Spell Resist (19) and you'd still get to use a shield for say elemental resistance or what have you? Seems like it shouldn't work, balance wise, but do the rules prevent it from working?
Everyone getting fortification also hurts two-handed weapon users as well since they generally rely on crits to do their hvy damage lifting. But yeah if it is too easy to get fort rogues will not be happy campers at all.
Okay, maybe I'm just negative, but I think the monk is kind of rediculous. I'm sorry, yes it's a huge improvement over 3.5, I'm not gonna argue that at all, all solid improvements.
But I'm sorry, it just seems silly to me to say, "the monk can't have a full BAB" and then for every important class feature of the monk say, for this feature he's treated as having a full BAB. I'm sorry to not be happy that the monk is much improved. but this is just a bad way to do it to me. Needlessly complicated.
It's a silly way to avoid moving his BAB up, at least that's how I see it. The rules would be more staight forward if they just gave him the fighter's BAB and called it a day.
Okay, maybe I'm just negative, but I think the monk is kind of rediculous. I'm sorry, yes it's a huge improvement over 3.5, I'm not gonna argue that at all, all solid improvements.
But I'm sorry, it just seems silly to me to say, "the monk can't have a full BAB" and then for every important class feature of the monk say, for this feature he's treated as having a full BAB. I'm sorry to not be happy that the monk is much improved. but this is just a bad way to do it to me. Needlessly complicated.
Full BAB would've been much simpler. I really like the pathfinder monk and it will be one of the first classes I'll try, but I didn't really see the problem in giving the monk full BAB and d10 HD and make the class much simpler.
Would that mean you could make bracers of armor +1 and hvy fort, wearing them under +5 full plate of Spell Resist (19) and you'd still get to use a shield for say elemental resistance or what have you? Seems like it shouldn't work, balance wise, but do the rules prevent it from working?
No. But perhaps that have changed in the final
Everyone getting fortification also hurts two-handed weapon users as well since they generally rely on crits to do their hvy damage lifting. But yeah if it is too easy to get fort rogues will not be happy campers at all.
As I said before. Rogues won't be happy. And those who rely on crits.
That is fighters who rely on the (high level) crit feat chain. So fighters and rogues will suffer if I'm right. I hope I'm wrong.....and Devestaing blow will be nerfed. So Barbarians and THW tanks won't be happy.
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All the previews so far have suggested that dodge is an 'always on' bonus. As for the stacking sets of armour thing, it was a topic of some argument, certainly back under 3.0, though I don't know about 3.5. I saw quite a few people trying to get away with +1 heavy fortification bracers under their full plate. Personally, I've always maintained that you can only benefit from one item that grants an armour bonus, one that grants a shield bonus, and so on. You can wear multiple items that grant the same type of bonus, but only one of them actually does anything. I don't know if the rules support me on that one, but it prevents cheap fortification cheese.
Oh, and other thoughts;
- With the push towards making more things sneak attackable, for all we know, fortification works differently in PFRPG. It wouldn't be a hard thing to make backwards compatible, since so few opponents have the ability on their armour.
- Fortification isn't as much of a problem as a lot of people seem to think, IME. Heavy fortification should really never see action in a standard AP, as a +5 armour ability. Medium fortification likewise, at least with the groups I play. People would rather have more AC than a chance to negate crits. Light fortification? Maybe. But again, my experience is that people can't be bothered rolling a 25% chance, and do something else with their money.
And to keep this on topic, woo monk! I have never played monks and I never intend to play monks, but that's purely due to my dislike of the flavour of the monk, and is no reflection on its strength as a class. I'm just one of those people who doesn't really enjoy asian garnish in my medieval fantasy game. For that reason, I can't really enthuse myself about monk changes; for me, they're a non-starter. But while I won't use them, I think this new monk makes moves in all the right directions, and should go a long way to letting monk back into the 'actually useful characters' club.
I gave Sajan a short sword for a very specific reason, but no one has figured it out quite yet.
Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo Publishing
I try to guess...
Can it be that monks now can flurry with every small weapon in their hands in which they have proficiency?
RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16
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But I'm sorry, it just seems silly to me to say, "the monk can't have a full BAB" and then for every important class feature of the monk say, for this feature he's treated as having a full BAB. I'm sorry to not be happy that the monk is much improved. but this is just a bad way to do it to me. Needlessly complicated.
Base Attack Bonus is the "crazy uncle" of D&D. You explore rooms of the combat system edifice where you wouldn't expect to see it (feats, combat maneuvers, prestige classes) and when you open a closet, there he is, Base Attack Bonus, gibbering and looking at you with a mad fire in his eyes.
By keeping Monks at medium BAB advancement, Jason is delaying some of the martial feats and slowing their entrance into some of the Prestige Classes. I'm guessing that's a deliberate decision.
(It makes me wonder, though: since the Monk's Base Attack Bonus itself is changing when she uses combat maneuvers or flurry of blows, would a 6th-Level Monk be eligible for Improved Two-Handed Fighting if she promised only to use it for combat maneuvers.)
Giving the Monk full BAB and d10 hit dice would nerf the backwards compatibility, so that may be the reason to keep it. EDIT: and Jason needs something to improve for pathfinder 2.0 :-))
I DMed a 3.0 game in which I had a monk, a sorcerer, a druidess and a half-orc barbarian/bard, and the monk seriously kicked ass, even with all the problems the class had back then. So, I guess the new monk will be good enough for me.
Stefan
One thing really bugs me.
The way monks are set up now, BAB-wise, is in a way worse than they were before. How can that possibly be? Well, the monk has two main gimmicks: (1) great mobility and (2) lots of attacks. The best way to make the monk more viable, and to give him a unique niche, would be to integrate those two things -- not ensure that they can never be used together.
The new monk in essence gets a scaling penalty to attacks when he moves (3/4 vs. the full BAB he gets when standing still). So the new monk, rather than running up and attacking, has a very, very strong incentive to stand still and just hope someone comes within reach. Which begs the question, if it's so disadvantageous for him to move -- why give him a speed that scales up with level, when the level-based attack penalty makes him less and less likely to use that speed?
I just don't get it.
One thing really bugs me.
The way monks are set up now, BAB-wise, is in a way worse than they were before. How so? The monk has two main gimmicks: (1) great mobility and (2) lots of attacks. The best way to make the monk more viable, and to give him a unique niche, would be to integrate those two things -- not ensure that they can never be used together.
The new monk in essence gets a scaling penalty to attacks when he moves (3/4 vs. the full BAB he gets when standing still).
I agree that it's not good, but to be fair that's exactly the same as it was before (3/4 BAB when moving, BAB similar to a two-weapon fighter when standing still). It's not "worse".
It's not "worse".
It's "worse" in the sense that the new monk is even less likely to want to take advantage of his speed, given the huge incentive to stand in one place. It's worse in terms of integration of his class features, not in terms of numerical bonus. And the higher level he is, the worse it gets in that regard.
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RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
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(It makes me wonder, though: since the Monk's Base Attack Bonus itself is changing when she uses combat maneuvers or flurry of blows, would a 6th-Level Monk be eligible for Improved Two-Handed Fighting if she promised only to use it for combat maneuvers.)
Hmm, well the RAW do say if you lose the feat pre-req, you can't use the feat. I suppose you could take that rule kicking and screaming and argue you do quality at 6th level, just not always ;-)
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RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
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It's not "worse".It's "worse" in the sense that the new monk is even less likely to want to take advantage of his speed, given the huge incentive to stand in one place. It's worse in terms of integration of his class features, not in terms of numerical bonus. And the higher level he is, the worse it gets in that regard.
Unless we see some change in the high level combat Jason's not told us.
For example
So giving Sajan at 8th level his 4 flurry he could 5' step for 4 attacks, move 25' for 3 or move 50 for 2. This would allow him (or a TWF) to move great distances and still hit something.
Just an example of how it could work of course. IDHTBIFOM *sigh*
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I'll throw my hat in with those who like the new monk, but can't figure out why they don't just give him full BAB and call it good. I mean...what does the monk get? All the other full BAB classes get at least as many extra crunchy bits as the monk does if not more, so the Monk would've matched the new Paladin, Ranger, or Fighter quite nicely in the full-BAB role. Instead we get a class that has the same amount of extras as those, yet with only 3/4 progression...except that for most purposes it is actually full-BAB. Needlessly complicated. Oh well, I suppose there's always house rules.
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Does anyone else think that 16th level is a bit late to get (the ability to bestow) blindness/deafness? I can't help but think that by that level I would always have something better to do with my turn. I do understand that it is an effect possibly bestowed with damage. Maybe there is something else I'm not considering?Stunning Fist doesn't cost you a turn; it's a free action that goes along with your normal set of attacks.
Of course, the fact that it's a Fort save means that quite a few high CR creatures will resist it, but there's no "opportunity cost" to using it.
Ah. After some reading and your reply, I understand.
Rather than merely getting trounced by the Monk, you have to save or take a negative condition after the attack(s). The condition in question improves by monk level.
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Hmm, well the RAW do say if you lose the feat pre-req, you can't use the feat. I suppose you could take that rule kicking and screaming and argue you do quality at 6th level, just not always ;-)
(It makes me wonder, though: since the Monk's Base Attack Bonus itself is changing when she uses combat maneuvers or flurry of blows, would a 6th-Level Monk be eligible for Improved Two-Handed Fighting if she promised only to use it for combat maneuvers.)
As I see it, the Monk will uses his high speed in his first turn to get close to target and attempt a CMB (I personally prefer trip) or try to hinder the opponent (Scorpion Style /Stunning Fist (/Gorgon’s Fist??)).
Then he could use Combat Reflex/Stand Still/Shall No Pass (?) to keep the opponent close so he can Flurry (/Medusa’s Wrath??) to his heart content and if things get ugly he can get the hell out of there and re-try later.
So I really see them as complimenting each other rather than canceling each other.
Edit: I really like these changes to the Monk.
Edit: Combat Reflex not Combat expertise (I always get confused with those two)
As I see it, the Monk will uses his high speed in his first turn to get close to target and attempt a CMB (I personally prefer trip) or try to hinder the opponent (Scorpion Style /Stunning Fist (/Gorgon’s Fist??)). Then he could use Combat Expertise/Stand Still/Shall No Pass (?) to keep the opponent close so he can Flurry (/Medusa’s Wrath??) to his heart content and if things get ugly he can get the hell out of there and re-try later.
OK, so that's Scorpion Style, Gorgon's Fist, Medusa's Wrath, Combat Expertise, Improved Trip, Greater Trip, and Shall Not Pass = 7 feats so far = what, 11th level? By that time, his enemies are flying and teleporting...
Okay, maybe I'm just negative, but I think the monk is kind of rediculous. I'm sorry, yes it's a huge improvement over 3.5, I'm not gonna argue that at all, all solid improvements.
But I'm sorry, it just seems silly to me to say, "the monk can't have a full BAB" and then for every important class feature of the monk say, for this feature he's treated as having a full BAB. I'm sorry to not be happy that the monk is much improved. but this is just a bad way to do it to me. Needlessly complicated.
You know, I hadn't really thought about it. I guess I was too busy reveling in monk crunchy goodness and then chasing elephants...
But yeah, why is this so complicated?
For some held-over inexplicable reason, the monk gets mediocre BAB for his least effective attack, and then for all the stuff he really wants to do, he gets full BAB.
With Flurry of Death and CMB of Deadly Death, how often will monks actually choose to do something else that limits them to their lower BAB?
Answer: Never. Except when they have to move more than 5' and are facing something that just doesn't seem applicable to any CMB stunts, like maybe a ghost - can't grapple or trip them, nothing to disarm or sunder, and no benefit to overrunning or bullrushing them.
Yeah, OK, so when a monk wants to hit a ghost that's at least 10' away, yeah, then he will have his lower BAB.
But all the rest of the time, he won't.
Wouldn't it have made more sense just to cave and give him full BAB, and then not have to worry about the extra wonky rules about when to use class level instead of BAB to calculate stuff that normally would use BAB?
Needlessly complicated?
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As I see it, the Monk will uses his high speed in his first turn to get close to target and attempt a CMB (I personally prefer trip) or try to hinder the opponent (Scorpion Style /Stunning Fist (/Gorgon’s Fist??)). Then he could use Combat Expertise/Stand Still/Shall No Pass (?) to keep the opponent close so he can Flurry (/Medusa’s Wrath??) to his heart content and if things get ugly he can get the hell out of there and re-try later.OK, so that's Scorpion Style, Gorgon's Fist, Medusa's Wrath, Combat Expertise, Improved Trip, Greater Trip, and Shall Not Pass = 7 feats so far = what, 11th level? By that time, his enemies are flying and teleporting...
He wouldn't need them all to fill this concept. I play a Level 7 Half-Elf, 3.5 Monk with Improved Trip and Combat Reflex and very much do exactly what i had described.
PF Monk gives you even more options to accomplish it. So i still can't see it as "worst".
Okay, maybe I'm just negative, but I think the monk is kind of rediculous. I'm sorry, yes it's a huge improvement over 3.5, I'm not gonna argue that at all, all solid improvements.
But I'm sorry, it just seems silly to me to say, "the monk can't have a full BAB" and then for every important class feature of the monk say, for this feature he's treated as having a full BAB. I'm sorry to not be happy that the monk is much improved. but this is just a bad way to do it to me. Needlessly complicated.
You know, I hadn't really thought about it. I guess I was too busy reveling in monk crunchy goodness and then chasing elephants...
But yeah, why is this so complicated?
For some held-over inexplicable reason, the monk gets mediocre BAB for his least effective attack, and then for all the stuff he really wants to do, he gets full BAB.
With Flurry of Death and CMB of Deadly Death, how often will monks actually choose to do something else that limits them to their lower BAB?
Answer: Never. Except when they have to move more than 5' and are facing something that just doesn't seem applicable to any CMB stunts, like maybe a ghost - can't grapple or trip them, nothing to disarm or sunder, and no benefit to overrunning or bullrushing them.
Yeah, OK, so when a monk wants to hit a ghost that's at least 10' away, yeah, then he will have his lower BAB.
But all the rest of the time, he won't.
Wouldn't it have made more sense just to cave and give him full BAB, and then not have to worry about the extra wonky rules about when to use class level instead of BAB to calculate stuff that normally would use BAB?
Needlessly complicated?
As someone previously noted, a full BAB allows you to enter into prestige classes and acquire feats faster than you would otherwise be able to do.
So for things that require a +6 BAB, you have to have 8 monks levels instead of 6. Also monk prestige classes which currently assume the 3/4 BAB would be available earlier than they're supposed to be.
The idea here is that monk's are good improvisers. They're not good at dealing with situations outside what they're prepared for. That translates to their bad AoO and move and gun.
Their lawful nature and their incredibly repetitive training has produced a very efficient machine, but law doesn't deal well when unusual things are thrown at them.
It might have been simpler to give them full BAB, but it breaks backwards compatability some.
As I see it, the Monk will uses his high speed in his first turn to get close to target and attempt a CMB (I personally prefer trip) or try to hinder the opponent (Scorpion Style /Stunning Fist (/Gorgon’s Fist??)). Then he could use Combat Expertise/Stand Still/Shall No Pass (?) to keep the opponent close so he can Flurry (/Medusa’s Wrath??) to his heart content and if things get ugly he can get the hell out of there and re-try later.
Good Points
OK, so that's Scorpion Style, Gorgon's Fist, Medusa's Wrath, Combat Expertise, Improved Trip, Greater Trip, and Shall Not Pass = 7 feats so far = what, 11th level? By that time, his enemies are flying and teleporting...
Not all his enemies are flying and teleporting. And those who do won't do it all the time.
Arcane casters? They usually have bad fort saves and stunning fist could work nice.
I'll throw my hat in with those who like the new monk, but can't figure out why they don't just give him full BAB and call it good. I mean...what does the monk get?
Because it would make a one-pit stop dip in Monk practically unavoidable for every fighter class out there.
+2 to all saves, Improved Unarmed Strike, Stunning Fist, a bonus feat, flurry of blows and Wis to ac when unarmored, more skill points and better class skills. And one more level for Evasion? Without losing a drop of BAB, or even hp?
OK, so that's Scorpion Style, Gorgon's Fist, Medusa's Wrath, Combat Expertise, Improved Trip, Greater Trip, and Shall Not Pass = 7 feats so far = what, 11th level? By that time, his enemies are flying and teleporting...
Umm.. Considering Sajan has 10 feats, 8 of his choosing, by 8th level, no, I don't think 11th to get 7 feats.
I see that Monks become immune to Disease, Does that mean that they can't become a vampire?
I see that Monks become immune to Disease, Does that mean that they can't become a vampire?
In D&D Vampirism isn't a disease, so yes they could still become vampires.
However if they are immune to all diseases, like a paladin is, then they can't be werewolves.
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Level 18 flurry would be +16/+16/+11/+11/+6/+6/+1/+1...
This actually scares me a little bit if they can take improved vital strike, and vital strike will be a no brainer...
+18/+18/+13/+13/+8/+8/+3 at level 20 vital strike making each of those attack 2d6+2d6+misc bonuses...
That is a lot of potential damage (of course the lame end iterative attacks always miss...but that's a decent chance of 16d6 dmg without any additional bonuses, and a slight chance of 28d6...
if Improved Vital strike is available, egadz 35d6...
I see that Monks become immune to Disease, Does that mean that they can't become a vampire?In D&D Vampirism isn't a disease, so yes they could still become vampires.
However if they are immune to all diseases, like a paladin is, then they can't be werewolves.
Isn't lycanthropy in mythology a curse?
I see that Monks become immune to Disease, Does that mean that they can't become a vampire?In D&D Vampirism isn't a disease, so yes they could still become vampires.
However if they are immune to all diseases, like a paladin is, then they can't be werewolves.
Thanks for clearing this up for me.
This monk really has two very different and power abilities I can see using.
Either move fast and disrupt someone with stuns/CMB or they stand and deal death in a flurry of blows. Both skills look very handy to any group, flexible and yet still focused. While I think they should have the fighter BAB I do not see the need to up their hit die type to a d10. They do have solid skill points, many feats, great mobility, a solid AC, and the best saves. Do they really need top end hit points as well?
