360 gp is enough to pay one servant for 10 years, or 10 servants for one year.
One of the apprentices in a weapon smiths forge have to save all their pay for a full year to be able to buy one of the longswords they create everyday. And that's just for the cheap stuff of the shelf.
Also, the apprentice, with a craft skill of +5, would take 2 weeks to make a single longsword. I'm not sure how long it takes to make one cheap longsword, but I'd say, if you make ten at the same time, it doesn't take half a year. More like half a month.
I think there are two ways of handling this:
1. Reduce all item prices to 1/10. Also reduce the amount of coins found during adventures by 1/10, and do the same for starting wealth.
2. Reduce the time to craft an item by 1/10 and also increase the pay for all hired servants by x10.
Outcome is the same, the only difference is, how special a single gold coin is.In ancient greece, 26 kg of silver (2,600 coins) was nine years of skilled work. That would be 0,8 sp/day payment. SRD lists 1 sp/day for unskilled work and 3 sp/day for skilled work, so by the SRD, workers are very well paid.
So I would pick option 1, and assume that PHB prices are severly overblown. Just make all item prices SP instead of GP, and I think you're fine.
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I think there are two ways of handling this:
1. Reduce all item prices to 1/10. Also reduce the amount of coins found during adventures by 1/10, and do the same for starting wealth.
2. Reduce the time to craft an item by 1/10 and also increase the pay for all hired servants by x10.
Yeah, this seems to be the easiest way to go, if you want to move numbers around. Just adopt 'the silver standard' and make silver the new gold.
Any item prices listed in gold, now cost silver. Silver prices now cost copper. Copper prices now cost, I dunno, tin bits or something.
Platinum pieces can just cease to exist, and treasure listed in platinum coins become the only gold pieces.
In modern times, the value of gold is often chaging radically. Ranging from $250/oz in 1999 to $2400/oz in 1980 (allready adjusted for inflation), last year it was about $1000/oz.
the price for platinum is even more so, ranging from $770/oz to $2,250/oz in just last year! But that's because platinum is not seen as monney today, but as an industrial good, which follows demand and supply.
It gets more difficult by the fact, that platinum was not known until about 500 years ago to european science. ^^
So there is no realistic value for platin in a fantasy world. You might use it or don't.
Before the discovery of huge amounts of silver in america, the exchange rate for silver and gold WAS in fact about 1:10 for most of the time.
On the other hand, copper is practically wothless in comparison and not in fact suitable for a world, where the value of a coin is the value of it's material.
In modern times, the value of gold is often chaging radically. Ranging from $250/oz in 1999 to $2400/oz in 1980 (allready adjusted for inflation), last year it was about $1000/oz.
You're right on all counts, Neithan, but bear in mind that commodities didn't fluctuate in the same way historically. I think the economy of Pathfinder is supposed to be based on intrinsic value of commodities, although I'm sure that advance economies are possible within the setting.
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First, we are applying real world economies to a fantasy world where magic and monsters are real. A simpler way of dealing with the "problem" and having costs and wages and coins remain the same, is to assume that some entity or organization has established a certain standard that they have been able to enforce world-wide.
I assume that the Church of Abadar has managed to establish the "gold" standard in Golarion. If the change is to simply reduce costs by 1/10 and rewards and wages by 1/10 resulting in the exact same ratio, or to change everything from gold standard to silver standard keeping the same costs and rewards, each of which results in the same effect, then why change anything and just assume an artificial dictate?
Since platinum is used for a coin, and it was not in real life, it is simple to reason that gold is more plentiful, and its value is really more like that of silver in real life. I started a new game last night, and one of the things I immediately tried to establish, was that valued and expensive jewelry was in platinum, not gold.
Just assume "Platinum is the new gold" and problems are solved.
Just a few random thoughts...
The Bible makes mention of the daily wages of a farmhand being a denarius - basically, as I understand it, one silver piece.
Historically, particularly in recent history, gold prices have been subject to extreme manipulation (accounting for wild fluctuations in price).
When you try to look at the cost of gold through the years, you should look at what that price would buy at that time. $100 in 1898 bought a lot more than it did in 1998. Gold tends to hold its value rather consistently - ie, one oz of gold, converted to $, has tended to buy pretty much the same stuff through the years.
This, of course, assumes a stable government and doesn't anticipate extreme fluctuations in supply or demand of gold or goods. Droughts drive up the price of grain, mining booms drive down the value of gold, etc.
I think that the economy as implied works fine... until magic items comes into account. Once things start having a price tag in the 10 000 gp - and this is still rather conservative! - then everything goes to hell. While this is largely ignored in play, the exchange of money alone is ludicrous; only take into consideration the sheer weight of 10 000 gp - never mind 100 000 gp!
Unfortunately, there are no easy solutions to this problem without causing some headache or some pretty high-fantasy assumptions (such as that every merchant possess extradimentional safes, chests etc.)
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While this is largely ignored in play, the exchange of money alone is ludicrous; only take into consideration the sheer weight of 10 000 gp - never mind 100 000 gp!
Unfortunately, there are no easy solutions to this problem without causing some headache or some pretty high-fantasy assumptions (such as that every merchant possess extradimentional safes, chests etc.)
Gygax dealt with it by introducing 'trade bars' of mithral and adamantine in the D1-3 modules, probably for that very reason.
4E goes the 'astral diamonds' route.
Other options include the Arduin Grimoire option, of having coins that go up past platinum, including mithral, adamantine, orichalum, etc. (and depending on the setting, each has it's own options for uber-coinage, from Oerthblood to Baatorian Green Steel to Dragonsilver to the various starmetals of Golarion, such as Abysium, Djezet or Noqual). Hargrave went a step further and had general classifications of gemstones, with set costs (100 gp per ounce or carat of X, 250 gp -per carat of Y, etc.) and diamonds and pearls and jade had different set values based on color, with black diamonds/pearls/jade/coral being worth more than standard colors, and star diamonds/pearls/jade/coral being worth even more, and 'rainbow' diamonds/pearls/jade/coral being worth the most.
I wouldn't go quite that far, but having increasing coin values of mithral and adamantine make sense, as well as whatever other exotic metals (greensteel, orichalum, etc.), as well as Gygaxian 'trade bars' made up of 100 to 500 coins worth of weight.
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Hello,The mean french who I am comes back ! On a french forum, we spoke about the the economy of donjon. And I think that that system lacks of coherence.
I explain :
Firt, It's said that a basic NPC win the half of the result of skill " job "
And, It's wrotten to that we pay 1 Silver Peace a NPC.
With the second result a NPC win 3 Gold Peace the month. So, our Players who have 100 gold peace are reach at the beginning.
Second, the difference between a NPC who have a skill " job " 20 and a NPC who have a skill " job " 4. One win on average 7 Gold Peace the month, the second 15. A difference of 7 GP only ?
I think that for Pathfinder, a NPC must win his skill rank X his skill rank X 25.
So a NPC level 1 win 100 GP the month, a NPC level 20 win 10 000 GP the month. I find that's better.
But the prices must all change, if the money of the basic NPCs change.What do you think ?
P.S : I had a lot of hardships in order to write that mail. Don't hesitate to correct me !
Hiya Arbital, (Salut)
I am French too. I am not sure where you get this from, but do you want to post it in French ? Then i can maybe translate. If that helps, that would be okay with me, if I have enough time (main issue).
Where do you get your calculation from ?
(Je suis francais aussi. Je ne suis pas sur d'ou tu tires exactement tes chiffres, veux-tu que je t'aide à traduire ? Si cela peut aider, c'est OK pour moi(sous réserve que j'aie le temps pour (mon plus gros problème).
D'ou tu sors ton chiffre, exactement ?
Trade bars don't help with the weight, as a 50 gp gold bar has the same amount of gold and the same weight as 50 gold coins. It's just simpler to store and count.
The easy solution is gems. Even a small and very light gemstone can be worth hundreds or thousands of gold pieces.
Trade bars don't help with the weight, as a 50 gp gold bar has the same amount of gold and the same weight as 50 gold coins. It's just simpler to store and count.
The easy solution is gems. Even a small and very light gemstone can be worth hundreds or thousands of gold pieces.
It can be a little hard to purchase ale & beer with a gemstone though.
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It can be a little hard to purchase ale & beer with a gemstone though.Trade bars don't help with the weight, as a 50 gp gold bar has the same amount of gold and the same weight as 50 gold coins. It's just simpler to store and count.
The easy solution is gems. Even a small and very light gemstone can be worth hundreds or thousands of gold pieces.
Thats because Beer and Ale carry a specific Currency (The Stubloon - look it up on the internet). Its a weighty 5cp copper Piece minted specifically by Guilds.
If you want to know what the effect of 'magic' labour has on an economy...try Rossum's Universal Robots. People were driven into poverty and homelessness when they were no longer of value to the wealthy. There is a war described as behind the secnes of the play where Robots are converted to warfare to go against human populations.
The 1 sp per day wage is for unskilled labor (or the profit a peasant farmer makes after paying taxes and putting aside the food he needs personally). Akin to a modern day migrant workers wage. Those in skilled crafts earn a rather bit more.
A 1st level commoner with a rank in Profession or Craft, and Skill Focus in the same skill makes a decent living by taking 10.
Personally, I mentally convert a gold piece to be $40-$50. (yes, this is about a 10th of it's 'real world' value. If that bothers you, divide all costs in the book by 10, like someone suggested above.)
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The 1 sp per day wage is for unskilled labor (or the profit a peasant farmer makes after paying taxes and putting aside the food he needs personally). Akin to a modern day migrant workers wage. Those in skilled crafts earn a rather bit more.
A 1st level commoner with a rank in Profession or Craft, and Skill Focus in the same skill makes a decent living by taking 10.
Personally, I mentally convert a gold piece to be $40-$50. (yes, this is about a 10th of it's 'real world' value. If that bothers you, divide all costs in the book by 10, like someone suggested above.)
Or you can just accept that 1gp is 1gp in the game and suspend disbelief, sort of like we do with goblins, fireball tossing wizards and breath weapon dodging rogues... it's a [i]fantasy game[i], not an economic simulationist experience.
That said, yeah the economy thing annoys me, but rather than trying to come up with ways to "fix" it I prefer to come up with ways to explain it. And that is a LOT easier to do than "fix" it.
I seem to remember reading somewhere that the PHB prices reflected an "advenurers markup" that was assumed to apply to the pcs but not common folk. Therefore, a commoner could buy products at a reduced price. This always made sense to me, though in many campaigns the pcs have a home and they should be able to buy at the reduced prices at home... I think that markup should have been left in DM's hands instead of leaving it up to him to figure a reduction. Eh, six of one, half-a-dozen of the other...
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I seem to remember reading somewhere that the PHB prices reflected an "advenurers markup" that was assumed to apply to the pcs but not common folk. Therefore, a commoner could buy products at a reduced price. This always made sense to me, though in many campaigns the pcs have a home and they should be able to buy at the reduced prices at home... I think that markup should have been left in DM's hands instead of leaving it up to him to figure a reduction. Eh, six of one, half-a-dozen of the other...
So how long before your Players have their PCs dress like Bob the Woodcutter when they go shopping for Platemail? Discount on platemail cause you are workin stiffs - sure!
I seem to remember reading somewhere that the PHB prices reflected an "advenurers markup" that was assumed to apply to the pcs but not common folk. Therefore, a commoner could buy products at a reduced price. This always made sense to me, though in many campaigns the pcs have a home and they should be able to buy at the reduced prices at home... I think that markup should have been left in DM's hands instead of leaving it up to him to figure a reduction. Eh, six of one, half-a-dozen of the other...So how long before your Players have their PCs dress like Bob the Woodcutter when they go shopping for Platemail? Discount on platemail cause you are workin stiffs - sure!
Most commoners will have reduced price because the lady who sell them eggs is a relative of theirs, or they will have a bargain price on lumber because they helped the lumberjacks to dig the trench last fall... Adventurers are easy enough to recognize.
Besides, commoners don't go shop for a plate mail. If they do, they are probably no longer commoners...
That aside, it is the "high economy" that is bugging me. Once there is a market for a suit of plate mail with the price tag of three merchant sea vessels, it starts to raise issues on the nation-scale economy without going really high fantasy (teleporting chests and containers, warehouses liked by portals, inns that serve Heroes' Feasts etc).
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Stereoform :
I agree. But I had new Ideas. I give you a links to a french website :
http://forum.le-scriptorium.com/index.php?showtopic=1961&hl=
X 5/4, produits non manufacturés X 3/4 ).That's complicate, I agree :).
sympa comme lien.
Je ne connaissais pas ce forum, je vais y jeter un coup d'oeil bientôt.
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Imperial Seal
A useful yet risky currency useful anywhere within the empire. It can be any amount of wealth well in excess of that held by merchant guilds. It can have no value if the emperor is displeased with you.
Fundamentally, you provide the Emperor with wealth (or even deeds of exceptional long term value to the emperor) and that wealth or a percentage there of is granted in Charter.
This might be the right to establish a Wall around some Village and turn it into a Guild Town, The right to taxes drawn on certain farmlands and minor estates, even The right to build a Castle at your own expense (the initial payment being a gratuity). The truly risky might be a billion gp charter to 'establish beyond the boundaries of the empire these distant lands'. In which case it is a suicide mission involving you overthrowing the King of Went to expand the imperial holdings. Sure it might be yours untill your grip is tight, but ten minutes after you crack open the nearest Uranium Mine The emperor pats you on the back and accquires it from under you.
Piss the Emperor off and you could be knee deep in imperial stormtroopers with orders to revoke your Charter. Be too successful and you could be stabbed in the back.
I have a few coments to be made on this subject
1> most of the time the 1sp per day is assuming that the pcs are providing both food and lodgings which add another 4 to 6 sp per day in costs. and that is for just unskilled labor.
2 as it states in the beta rules 2sp /day for skilled is the minimum not the average so your example of the Swordsmiths apprentice buying his own work the long sword uses ruffly 8sp in mats takes roughly a week to make and makes 14g profit for the business figure you pay the apprentice 20% of the profit that's 2g 8sp or roughly 4sp a day for the apprentice with his master taking home 11g 2sp or 1g 6sp a day. and that is for a cheep non master work longsword even saying a masterwork blade takes a mounth to make thats still a 300g addtion to the profit of the store or a roughly 10g a day addtion to the smiths take home pay.
3. also it is up to the pcs to provide the hirelings with the appropriate gear for their job. also most hirelings even "unskilled" ones will not voluntarily step into a dungeon now guards might but they will probably want "hazard pay". also if one of the hirelings die expect the pcs to have to pay death benefits.
as for carrying large sums of cash and having to move it around that is what jewelers/money changers are for and if the pcs are stupid enough to change all their cash to gems then that pint of all my cost them 100g if they really need it. if they get served at all. paying at the door on your way out only started in Victorian times .prior to that you payed for you food and drinks at the table /bar. so no cash no food/drinks.
and for trade bars, most of those where face value of the bar when not dealing with the originating organization. so yes you may have bought the bar off merchant house zxy for 200g but if you not selling it back to that house or one dealing with it then its only worth the base value say 50g for a one pound bar . this is where magical markings on the bar come in handy to prevent counterfeiting.
as a later note I would recommend reading Grain Into Gold by John Josten published by Board Enterprises you can get here http://www.rpgnow.com/product_info.php?products_id=13113&it=1 (sorry Paizo does not have it) its a really good break down on how to figure out fantasy economics without being too preachy or text book like
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I can pretty much design an estate and its economy based on even the most meagre of descriptions. 'GRAIN INTO GOLD' doesnt go anywhere near that.
Wallesgrave Manor, Scarsdale
...the manor of Wallesgrave with all it's appurtenances and sixty acres...
Description
This is a Knight's Estate. It supports a Knight, His Warhorse, Family, five Servants, and Livestock. A sixty acre estate functioning on a three field rotation. Each field is then defined as 19&1/2 acres. This leaves some 1&1/2 acres apon which the manor house, Barn, Servants Residence and Vegetable gardens are located. It does however provide for little else. Such a Knight might be considered little more than a Peasant Farmer by wealthier European Knights with their multiple villa estates.
Calculating the Produce of an Estate
Three fields in rotation (3x19&1/2 acres)
A field of Barley, Oats & Rye (3x6&1/2 acres)
6&1/2 acres of Barley @ 63%=6.5x28 bushelsx0.63=114&2/3 bushels: 5733lb barley grain, 24422lb barley chaff.
6&1/2 acres of Oats @ 63%=6.5x24 bushelsx0.63=98&1/4 bushels: 4914lb oats grain, 20933lb oats chaff.
6&1/2 acres of Rye @ 63%=6.5x30 bushelsx0.63=122&3/4 bushels: 6142&1/2lb rye grain, 26167lb rye chaff.
Seed to the next sewing: Barley(325lb), Oats(325lb), Rye(325lb)
Grain available: Barley(5408lb), Oats(4589lb), Rye(5817lb)
Chaff available: Barley chaff(24422lb), Oat chaff(20933lb), Rye chaff(26167lb)
A Sheep Herd on the rest(2x19&1/2 acres)
39 acres/3=13 sheep x 0.63=8 sheep (7 ewes & 1 ram)
8 sheep @ 2&1/2lb=20lb wool
7 ewes @ 180 days per year @ 1/4 gallons milk=315 gallons. 315lbx10.31x(5/43.25)=375lb cheese</li>
2 sheep (4 year old sheep) slaughtered each year for meat @ 77lbx 2=154lb mutton sausage</li>
2 sheep (slaughtered)providing 2 leather hides</li>
Sheep product available: Wool(20lb), Cheese(375lb), Mutton Sausage(154lb), Leather Hides(2)
The Manor on a remaining 1&1/2 acres
A Manor house and buildings (1/2 acre)
A Vegetable Garden & Grounds (1 acre)
1/2 acre vegetable garden of Turnip x 25 ton/acre @ 63%=7.875 ton
1/2 acre running 10 chickens freerange(9 hens & cock)=9 @ 180 eggs/year=1620 eggs/year
(3) pigs on vegetble scraps, some chaff, and grain
Calculating the Consumption of an Estate
Fuel from woodlot beyond the estate boundaries: The estate requires some 150,000lb firewood/year. 7&1/2 acres per year x 100 years to achieve regrowth=750 acres of forest
Thatch for roofing: 11&2/3 tons of Rye thatch is available
Feeding the Warhorse and draft animals: 3x50lbx52weeksx7days=54,600lb (207 bushels of oats/grain&chaff)
Ryebread: 5817lb/50lb=116.34 bushels x 73 loaves/bushel=8492 loaves
Weak Ale: 5408lb/12lb=450 gallons (2 Tuns (216 gallonsx2) of weak ale)
Grr preview ate my fist try at this
I have some questions /points to make for your estate
1.> What kind of draft animals do you have on the estate (this is important)
2.> you are aware that Rye,barley,and oat chaff is called straw and has no Calories that an animal can use , also it is not safe for animals to eat large quantities of it over time as it cuts their intestines up.(trust me you do not want to deal with that)
3.> The diet you have these poor peploe on is almost cruel
its a 2047 calorie diet of which 85% of the calories are supplied by bread. (if need be i can show you the math)
4.> your wood needs are way over the top you have enough wood to run 8 to 9 fire places for a year non stop in a endless tempered zone winter (the average fire place only needs 1 cord aka 3200 pounds of wood per 6 to 8 weeks in winter.
5> what are you feeding the birds.
6>where is your grain storage/ barns/ utilty, buldings (your rye alone is a 5.25ft to a side cube of material)
if i was this poor knight i would be off adventuring as much as i could just supplement the lousy conditions of this estate
btw Grain to Gold is not just a estate book its a pretty good look at an overall economy that will not bore you to tears
First, what something is worth is ALWAYS what someone might sell it for.
A consequence of this is that if, say, Golarion, has ten times as much gold as Earth does, and people use it in roughly the same way, it will be worth around one tenth of what it is on Earth. Gold problem solved.
Second, fixed exchange rates is a new invention.
In our own history, gold, silver and copper were tradable commodities more than they were currency. This meant that the exchange rate varied wildly. While it was sometimes 1 gp = 10 sp, that varied with the season, current events, bandit raids, new prospecting, and so on.
Third, different types of coins had different social roles.
The basic idea was that in all that you did economically, you used the same coins for it. Nobility used gold, merchants silver and lower classes copper. There was exchange, certainly, which was provided by the banks, at a heavy percentage, but in general this held true. Social diffusion was not appreciated. A noble would be seen as having committed a faux pas by paying with coppers. A worker would have a hard time spending a gold piece, since everyone he paid it to would think he had stolen it. A consequence of the varying prices was that an influx of one type of metal affected different classes differently. If someone opened up a new gold mine, the nobles' situation improved, quite differently from a silver mine.
Fourth, the currency system had a good number of oddities.
For example: A guinea was a variant pound. Where a pound was fixed at 12 shillings, a guinea was 13 shillings. This was a coin used to reward certain types of professionals, such as doctors, in that they could demand prices in guineas, not pounds like everyone else.
The coinage system could be so much more than 1 pp=10 gp=100 sp=1000 cp.
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Grr preview ate my fist try at this
I have some questions /points to make for your estate
1.> What kind of draft animals do you have on the estate (this is important)
1-2 Oxen. Its the estate of a rather a Poor Farmer-Knight. Wallesgrave manor is in Scarborough? It was eventually absorbed into the nearby town. Assumendly due to its poverty.
By comparrison:
Bishop Swinfield's Vinyard, Ledbury
...Ledbury which yeilded Bishop Swinfield seven Tuns of white wine...
Description
This is a Vinyard owned by Bishop Swinfield that has the capacity to yeild seven tuns of white wine. At 2d./gallon this is a potential income of 12 Pounds, 2s., 8d before servants wages and support.
Defining a Vinyard
We Know the produce is seven tuns of white wine.
Tun=216 gallons, 7x216 gallons=1512 gallons
1512/5=302.4
302.4 x 85lb=25704lb white wine grapes
A ten row vinyard-acre yields 2&1/2 ton of grape.
Assuming 83% yield
(25704/83) x 100=30,968lb
30968/2240=13.825 ton
13.825/2.5=5&1/2 acres
This is a 6&1/2 acre vinyard with 1/2 acre for a winery and servants living off a vegetable garden.
2.> you are aware that Rye,barley,and oat chaff is called straw and has no Calories that an animal can use , also it is not safe for animals to eat large quantities of it over time as it cuts their intestines up.(trust me you do not want to deal with that)
Yes however in description of the correct mix of fodder for such animals it is a 'full bushel' meaning the grain and chaffe ratios mixed with greenfeed graizing.
3.> The diet you have these poor peploe on is almost cruel
its a 2047 calorie diet of which 85% of the calories are supplied by bread. (if need be i can show you the math)
Yes it is terrible aint it. Assumedly you wont die from it.
4.> your wood needs are way over the top you have enough wood to run 8 to 9 fire places for a year non stop in a endless tempered zone winter (the average fire place only needs 1 cord aka 3200 pounds of wood per 6 to 8 weeks in winter.
10,000lb per adult person/year because they are cooking all year, and other stuff like keeping warm in winter.
5> what are you feeding the birds.
Freerange - they are lucky to get grain scraps, vegetable scraps, worms, ect.
6>where is your grain storage/ barns/ utilty, buldings (your rye alone is a 5.25ft to a side cube of material)if i was this poor knight i would be off adventuring as much as i could just supplement the lousy conditions of this estate
btw Grain to Gold is not just a estate book its a pretty good look at an overall economy that will not bore you to tears
Which is why poor farmer knights went off and did tournaments and could be reduced to poverty by a chance unhorsing.
Ok here we go
An estate of 64 acres with
The knight, his wife, 2 kids
Servants include 3 farm hands ,1 maid , 1 estate manger( Forman), 3 children
It is assumed the children do no work though a as kid who grew up on a farm I know better (chores started at age 7 for me)
Live stock:
1 warhorse (non working) eats 2 acres worth of hay a year
1 Ox eats 2 acres worth of hay a year
6 dairy cows (the knight buys stud services)
27 rabbits (24 does, 3 bucks) (this is the breeding stock)
32 chickens 15 layers/15 rosters 2 rosters
Land usage:
Fields 30 acres
1 acre Barn, silos, utility buildings
2 acres vegetable garden
1 /2 acre chicken coop
½ rabbit coop
4 acres Apple trees
1 acre walnut trees
22 acres Hay fields
1 acre animal pens
1 acre estate grounds
Production:
The fields are on lt crop/ grain crop/grain crop rotation (and yes this works)
4 acres Barley 672 lbs / acre gross- 144lbs seeds= 528 lbs /acre= 2112lbs
10 acres wheat 480lbs / acre gross – 120 lbs in seeds = 360 lbs / acre = 3600 lbs
6 acres cabbage 6000lbs / acre -0 for seeds =6000lbs /acre =36000lbs
8 acres peas 300 lbs / acre -90 for seeds =210 per acre= 1680lbs
2lima beans 400lbs / acre-100 for seeds =300 lbs / acre = 1500lbs
4 acres of apples= 1920 lbs /acre /year 7680 lbs
1 acre walnuts = 475lbs (in shell)/year 475 lbs which produces 47.7 lbs of nut meat
Milk production
Hay needed per cow = 1.5 acres
Milk produced per cow 4 gallons
Gallons need per pound of cheese 4
So 1 lbs cheese /day per cow
So 2190lbs / year produced
Meat production
Rabbits each consume 7lbs food month
A doe rabbit can produce 21 new rabbits /year or 1.75 / month
They can be harvested in 2 months
So every month we get 42 rabbits
So we have 111 rabbits on hand at any time
So we use 9234 lbs of food year feeing them
We get 84 lbs of meat and 42 furs /month
Chickens
Each bird eats 1 lbs / week so 32 lbs / week 1664 lbs / year
We feed the birds the peas (what you thought we were going to feed them corn)
We go get a new roster every 6 weeks so get 2.5 birds /week @ 3lbs meat ea so 7.5 lbs week.
We get 120 eggs / year / bird so 1800 eggs/ year or roughly 35 eggs / week
Beef
Every year you have 6 calves being born
Assuming that you let them age a year and ½ and let them get to a weight of 600 lbs
That means you will get 238 lbs of beef / animal
You will need roughly 13.5 acres of hay to get this result
Food production
3600 lbs wheat = 2520 lbs wheat flour of which 1095 is kept of bread of the estate the rest sold
2112 lbs of barley = 2112 gallons of beer all is used by the estate
Apples
2 acres worth are converted to cider =130 gallons / acre
Of which 260 is kept a cider 50 is made to hard ciders and 50 is made into apple jack (producing 12.5 gallons of applejack)
1 acres worth is converted to apple sauce = 100 qts of applesauce
Of the rest 2 bushels aka is kept for 48 pies
2 are kept for eating
The other 36 are sold = 48lbs x 36= 1728 lbs
Walnuts
10lbs is kept for the estate the rest are sold
Cabbage
16000 is kept by the estate
The other 20000 is sold
So we have out going off the farm
20000lbs cabbage sold at .025sp/lbs for 50gp profit
1425 lbs wheat flower sold at 6cp lbs for 85.5 gp profit
25 gallons hard cider sold at 42cp /gallon for 10.5 gp
100 gallons cider sold at 26cp / gallon for 26 gp
37.5 lbs of walnuts sold at 7cp /lbs for 2.62 gp
504 rabbit furs sold at 6cp ea for 30.24 gp
1500lbs lima beans sold for 2cp/ lbs for 30gp
1728 lbs Apples sold for 1cp/ lbs for 17.28 gp
6 cow hides sold for 4sp each for 2.4 gp
For a total of 254.54gp /year
Diet of our farm average / day (ever one s treated =)
8oz cheese
1.4 oz chicken
5.25 oz of beef
0.4 of an egg (it’s a treat)
4oz of wheat bread
3.6 oz rabbit meat
1.5lbs cabbage
4 pts beer
in this example our poor knight is not making a lot but he makes some revenue His and his people diet is vastly improved and does not have to stress as much about starving
Second, fixed exchange rates is a new invention.In our own history, gold, silver and copper were tradable commodities more than they were currency. This meant that the exchange rate varied wildly. While it was sometimes 1 gp = 10 sp, that varied with the season, current events, bandit raids, new prospecting, and so on.
This so a gm does not have to sit their and figure out the rate of exchange every time a player comes into town. If you whant to try and do that i wish you luck
Third, different types of coins had different social roles.The basic idea was that in all that you did economically, you used the same coins for it. Nobility used gold, merchants silver and lower classes copper. There was exchange, certainly, which was provided by the banks, at a heavy percentage, but in general this held true. Social diffusion was not appreciated. A noble would be seen as having committed a faux pas by paying with coppers. A worker would have a hard time spending a gold piece, since everyone he paid it to would think he had stolen it. A consequence of the varying prices was that an influx of one type of metal affected different classes differently. If someone opened up a new gold mine, the nobles' situation improved, quite differently from a silver mine.
this makes for a good idea if you are in a rigid society but most midevil fantasy is a very loose and fluid society in your example the noble would pay in copper if the item was that low (do you pay with a 20 every purchase you make) as for the worker how hard is it for you to break a hundred and does someone think you stole it automatically
Fourth, the currency system had a good number of oddities.The coinage system could be so much more than 1 pp=10 gp=100 sp=1000 cp.
That's close to how it was in fist and second editions but it was changed to make it easier for people to do the math (as an old school player/DM it was a pain some time to do the math for large sums of money
The point is not that nobles buy crappy boots costing 1 cp with a gold piece. That would be absurd. Rather, he doesn't buy crappy boots, aiming instead for high-quality boots with rare fur for the 20 gp they cost. The poor farmer is the guy who buys the crappy boots, and has to do so every few months.
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The point is not that nobles buy crappy boots costing 1 cp with a gold piece. That would be absurd. Rather, he doesn't buy crappy boots, aiming instead for high-quality boots with rare fur for the 20 gp they cost. The poor farmer is the guy who buys the crappy boots, and has to do so every few months.
Actually the guy at the bottom must make his own boots...from roadkill.
"Now if only I can find that second Kobold with a green stripe and fur around its butt."
First, what something is worth is ALWAYS what someone might sell it for.
Important fact: It's worth what a consumer will pay. Not what another trader will pay. That's how economic bubbles are created.
You could debate that forever, I guess. However, when you consider buying something, the price you could sell it for, no matter to whom, remains relevant. Those last guys who managed to sell tulips at blood-and-thunder prices during the tulip boom in the Netherlands, they considered them worth it, and they were proven right. It is also worth noting that the Netherlands today have tulips as a multi-billion dollar export industry. Something always remains after the bubbles have popped.
But if you want a view to "responsible economics" or such, yes, you're right, it's the consumer price that matters.
Well, it IS a fantasy world. Magic, slavery, looting (of treasures worth more than a nation's products) are only few of the things that make D&D economics different from real-world.
That being said, there seems to be a micro-economic system (which deals principally with coppers and silver) and a macro-economic system (which deals in thousands of gold pieces).
The micro-system is well detailed, but virtually unused by adventurers of 3rd level and up.
The macro-economics lacks definition and yet, would be the most used by player characters. All we have is a "wealth by level guideline".
I'd be curious to see if somebody thoroughly worked something out within the parameters of a "standard" level of magic. Loads of cabbages and bags of barley apart, what would be the economical implications of diamond dust sold by the pounds and of a trade market for magical items sold in the thousands of gold pieces. What would be the implication of one person walking with the "value" of a large town's treasury on their shoulder etc. How trade by caravels and other sea vessels compare to wizard-teleporting trade enterprises etc.
'findel