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Reading through the book Gods and Magic I came across conflicting statements in the book and I'm looking to find which one wins out as truth.
In the book it states Iomedae has absolutely NO dealings with any ill sort, especially demons/devils which also includes Asmodeus (sp?)
However under the Asmodeus section, it states he's acts as an advisor to her.
... kind of a big difference between never dealing with them and also taking their advice. Anyone?
Advising her without her ever realising it's him?
Just because he chooses to act as her advisor doesn't mean she listens to him :) We all know folks like that -- they give all kinds of "helpful" advice unasked for, and as soon as they shut up, unheeded ::chuckle::
Here is my take.
1. Asmodeus is not a devil. He is a god.
2. Asmodeus holds the key to Rovagug. He is also a diplomat without peer. It would be foolish for Iomedae to ignore him, and her wisdom is beyond our ken. Who are mortals to question the judgement of the gods?
3. Perhaps he is not absolutely beyond redemption, and perhaps she is not absolutely impervious to corruption.
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Here is my take.
1. Asmodeus is not a devil. He is a god.
2. Asmodeus holds the key to Rovagug. He is also a diplomat without peer. It would be foolish for Iomedae to ignore him, and her wisdom is beyond our ken. Who are mortals to question the judgement of the gods?
3. Perhaps he is not absolutely beyond redemption, and perhaps she is not absolutely impervious to corruption.
Yes Asmodeus does but it specifically says in Iom's description that she has no dealings with any evils INCLUDING Asmodeus (states him by name). Yet THEN in his area it says he DOES advise her.
... I'm not beyond being able to come up with reasons why she would work with him, but I'm more concerned about the direct contradiction.
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Here is my take.
1. Asmodeus is not a devil. He is a god.
2. Asmodeus holds the key to Rovagug. He is also a diplomat without peer. It would be foolish for Iomedae to ignore him, and her wisdom is beyond our ken. Who are mortals to question the judgement of the gods?
3. Perhaps he is not absolutely beyond redemption, and perhaps she is not absolutely impervious to corruption.Yes Asmodeus does but it specifically says in Iom's description that she has no dealings with any evils INCLUDING Asmodeus (states him by name). Yet THEN in his area it says he DOES advise her.
... I'm not beyond being able to come up with reasons why she would work with him, but I'm more concerned about the direct contradiction.
Can you REALLY trust what Asmodeus says? And even if he does advise her, who's to say it's not in the form of unsolicited advice that she routinely ignores?
Just because he chooses to act as her advisor doesn't mean she listens to him :) We all know folks like that -- they give all kinds of "helpful" advice unasked for, and as soon as they shut up, unheeded ::chuckle::
Heh, I know folks of the other sort.
Like my wife.
No matter how much I advise her, she never listens...
And even if he does advise her, who's to say it's not in the form of unsolicited advice that she routinely ignores?
Or assuming the guise of so-called allies that get her out of a bind, especially if he himself got her in said pinch in the first place? If she doesn't know she was 'helped' both claims can be true.
More seriously, I would say the info under Iomedae trumps the info under Asmodeus, at least until there is official errata.
Iomedae is a greater deity. Asmodeus barely ranks with demigods, certainly not with true deities.
There is no way IMO, certainly not in my cosmology anyway, that such a lowly creature as Asmodeus can ever fool Iomedae, so he cannot advise her, not even in disguise, not even by trickery, not ever.
With one exception.
He might send a message to her via a messenger that Iomedae trusts. Asmodeus might even deceive that messenger to believe he is someone else.
Maybe, if Iomedae is silly enough to accept unsolicited advice via messenger from unverified sources, then this might be one way Asmodeus could manage to deal with her.
But, even so, that hardly counts as "being her advisor".
At least that's my take, from my own little cosmological viewpoint.
RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32
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More seriously, I would say the info under Iomedae trumps the info under Asmodeus, at least until there is official errata.
Iomedae is a greater deity. Asmodeus barely ranks with demigods, certainly not with true deities.
At least in Golarion as-written, this is not true. Asmodeus is a major diety with all the trappings in Golarion, and his age eclipses upstart Iomedae's by several incomprehensibilities.
At least in Golarion as-written, this is not true. Asmodeus is a major diety with all the trappings in Golarion, and his age eclipses upstart Iomedae's by several incomprehensibilities.
Surely Abraham Lincoln wouldn't lie! (lol, sorry its the avatar's fault!)
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At least in Golarion as-written, this is not true. Asmodeus is a major diety with all the trappings in Golarion, and his age eclipses upstart Iomedae's by several incomprehensibilities.Surely Abraham Lincoln wouldn't lie! (lol, sorry its the avatar's fault!)
Ok. Anyone else imagining Asmodeus searching Hell for a stovepipe hat now?
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I suppose for now I'll have to go by Iom's entry instead. It's true that he COULD be disguising himself but someone like her who is likely capable of either seeing past disguises of even magical nature or at least detecting evil? Sorry but it's kind of a far stretch to me that a greater deity is so easily played and duped. Not that they CAN'T be ... but it just seems like a very big stretch of the imagination in this situation.
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I suppose for now I'll have to go by Iom's entry instead. It's true that he COULD be disguising himself but someone like her who is likely capable of either seeing past disguises of even magical nature or at least detecting evil? Sorry but it's kind of a far stretch to me that a greater deity is so easily played and duped. Not that they CAN'T be ... but it just seems like a very big stretch of the imagination in this situation.
Except that Asmodeus is ALSO a greater deity. So you have two greater deities involved and one of them is virtually a babe in arms, deifically speaking, while the other one pretty much predates history by a few inconceivables. I know my money's on goat-boy for that one.
Perhaps at that level of existence, you really can't afford not to listen to someone when they parlay, with the exception of destructive entities like Lamashtu and Rovagug.
***************
Let me draw a comparison to Amber DRPG, if you're familiar with it. Spoiler tags to shield you from far flung comparisons.
Bless his heart, I don't mean to speak ill of the dead but I always thought Erik Wujick made the Amberite archetypes overly extreme. Having gone too far.
Wujick's Caine is evil and his Eric is vile. Fiona is b&!~#y and probably disturbed.
Players who focus too closely on the "rules" draw their perceptions from those descriptions, and not the source material- that is Roger Zelazny's actual novels.
In the novels, the Elders always at least talk to each other. They don't trust each other, obviously, but there is always cause for communication and discourse. New Amber DRPG players fall into the trap of not actually role-playing out this level of communication just because "you just can't trust" a particular NPC. It's taken too easily as a given fact. Likewise, inexperienced GMs fall into the trap of never allowing them to keep their word, even in the smallest of things- a similiar mistake.
Of course you can't trust them in all things, but the setting doesn't work if there isn't some medium of dialogue and communication.
Getting back to Pathfinder's Gods of Golarion, I imagine at some level of celestial circumstance- there has to be some level of communication and interaction.
And when there isn't, you might end up locked up like Rovagug. Now I can see HIM as having no use for discussion. But also look where he ended up..
With the stovepipe hat involved, I am now envisioning the new Asmodean Recruiting Campaign...
"You can trust Honest Asmodeus...see...he has a hat! A hat you can trust....if you sign a contact...see fine print."
Fine Print
"Note: When signing an Asmodean contract, said contract must be signed in either one's own blood or the blood of one's firstborn child. The contract will henceforth speak of the blood donor as the Signatory and the he/she who shall receive benefits of said contract as the Beneficiary. If the Signatory and Beneficiary are one in the same person, they shall henceforth will be referred to as the Signaficiary. etc etc etc.
Iomedae is a greater deity. Asmodeus barely ranks with demigods, certainly not with true deities.
Where does it say that Iomedae is a greater goddess and Asmodeus but a demigod?
I think if anything, you have it on backwards.
Iomedae ascended with the starstone, and I think that makes you a demigod, maybe a bit more.
Asmodeus ascended to godhood from being a powerful archdevil.
No, they both count as true deities.
The only actual demigod we have really seen so far is the Mantis God, who has stats.
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Iomedae is a greater deity. Asmodeus barely ranks with demigods, certainly not with true deities.Where does it say that Iomedae is a greater goddess and Asmodeus but a demigod?
I think if anything, you have it on backwards.
Iomedae ascended with the starstone, and I think that makes you a demigod, maybe a bit more.
Asmodeus ascended to godhood from being a powerful archdevil.
No, they both count as true deities.
The only actual demigod we have really seen so far is the Mantis God, who has stats.
Yea I always thought they were simply both TRUE deities myself. Starstone or not it seems they have enough to be real figureheads. I just have an issue with two contradicting statements.
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Mysery, its opk its disinformation by the true mastermind behind Asmodeus and Lincoln
but I agree, I saw the same incongruency... of course... I believe that is Asmodeus propaganda... or maybe only recieves advice on how to kill demons in a more efficient way :P
they both have a true interest in don't letting the worldwound to grow to much... but at the same time it is Asmodeus interest ot have Iomedae viewing that side... isn't that how he won Cheliax? snif.. "too many good men went to the crusades, leaving their country vulnerable to de devil's minions"
I just have an issue with two contradicting statements.
Better get used to it. We're talking religion here. Understanding is a three-edged sword.
I suppose for now I'll have to go by Iom's entry instead. It's true that he COULD be disguising himself but someone like her who is likely capable of either seeing past disguises of even magical nature or at least detecting evil? Sorry but it's kind of a far stretch to me that a greater deity is so easily played and duped. Not that they CAN'T be ... but it just seems like a very big stretch of the imagination in this situation.
CELEBRITY DEATHMATCH! (Using Pathfinder's cosmogony, not dnd's manual of the planes).
Asmodeus: Primordial god of contracts and evil, chief in his own plane of existence, fought along the other primordial gods to imprison Rovagoug. Is the key-keeper, has confirmed deals with every other major god (starting with the very contract that all primordial gods signed to keep Rovagoug imprisoned). Always has something you need and is all too eager to provide it, for a price.
Iomedae: Ascended mortal, Goddess of justice and valor, sidekick and saint of a dead god and new kid of the block.
If you ask me, it's Asmodeous the one able to pull rank by far and large. In addition, Detect Evil is pretty useless when negotiating with any creature with the [Evil] subtype, as the alarm will go off regardless of whether the creature is actually evil or not.
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I suppose for now I'll have to go by Iom's entry instead. It's true that he COULD be disguising himself but someone like her who is likely capable of either seeing past disguises of even magical nature or at least detecting evil? Sorry but it's kind of a far stretch to me that a greater deity is so easily played and duped. Not that they CAN'T be ... but it just seems like a very big stretch of the imagination in this situation.CELEBRITY DEATHMATCH! (Using Pathfinder's cosmogony, not dnd's manual of the planes).
Asmodeus: Primordial god of contracts and evil, chief in his own plane of existence, fought along the other primordial gods to imprison Rovagoug. Is the key-keeper, has confirmed deals with every other major god (starting with the very contract that all primordial gods signed to keep Rovagoug imprisoned). Always has something you need and is all too eager to provide it, for a price.
Iomedae: Ascended mortal, Goddess of justice and valor, sidekick and saint of a dead god and new kid of the block.
If you ask me, it's Asmodeous the one able to pull rank by far and large. In addition, Detect Evil is pretty useless when negotiation with any creature with the [Evil] subtype, as the alarm will go off regardless of whether the creature is actually evil or not.
If it came down to blows, I'd almost put my money on Iomedae actually.
... if by the way she reads she's a paladin or sorts have you SEEN what the new smite would do to Asmody?
If it came down to blows, I'd almost put my money on Iomedae actually.
... if by the way she reads she's a paladin or sorts have you SEEN what the new smite would do to Asmody?
Saying it ever came to blows, not only Asmodeous never does his own dirty work, but he can also prance around happily while waving in front of Iomedae Rovagoug's seal contract, it doesn't take a crooked lawyer to predict that if any god ever lays a finger of him then creation will have much worse problems to worry about than him, and there'll be hell to pay. Not that I doubt Azzy's ability to hold his own against the toddler goddess though, Tar Baphon did short work of Arazni after all.
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Saying it ever came to blows, not only Asmodeous never does his own dirty work, but he can also prance around happily while waving in front of Iomedae Rovagoug's seal contract, it doesn't take a crooked lawyer to predict that if any god ever lays a finger of him then creation will have much worse problems to worry about than him, and there'll be hell to pay. Not that I doubt Azzy's ability to hold his own against the toddler goddess though, Tar Baphon did short work of Arazni after all.If it came down to blows, I'd almost put my money on Iomedae actually.
... if by the way she reads she's a paladin or sorts have you SEEN what the new smite would do to Asmody?
... well played sir ... well played.
Asmodeus: You feeling lucky, punk?
Iomedae: >_<
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snif!! damn you Dogbert and your logic, stop messing with my goddess :P
but aye I have to agree even if she doesn't listen to him... the contract might stipulate all present and future god's sidekicks... as you have put she is the youngest goddess, and one who inherit the mantle from other god...
but she is also a tactician... and she had proved she likes to climb in rank through hard work... and she right now is the goddess of humanity (that in the end was Aroden) so as human she is and the clossest to having being a mortal... she might like humans jump heights of power before older and wiser creatures could be the wiser about it...
happened to the elves once :P
If it came down to blows, I'd almost put my money on Iomedae actually.... if by the way she reads she's a paladin or sorts have you SEEN what the new smite would do to Asmody?
Asmodeus just informed me that by the contract I've signed, me and any protégés, sidekicks and henchmen I sponsor, his actual person and his immediate belongings are off-limits. To break this contract would mean to forfeit any claim on your divine power.
Crafty bastard, but he knows his business.
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If it came down to blows, I'd almost put my money on Iomedae actually.... if by the way she reads she's a paladin or sorts have you SEEN what the new smite would do to Asmody?
Asmodeus just informed me that by the contract I've signed, me and any protégés, sidekicks and henchmen I sponsor, his actual person and his immediate belongings are off-limits. To break this contract would mean to forfeit any claim on your divine power.
Crafty bastard, but he knows his business.
Hey quit using my avatar, you confuse me! :P
but she is also a tactician... and she had proved she likes to climb in rank through hard work.
And it takes considerable skill to climb the career ladder on your knees ;-)
.. and she right now is the goddess of humanity (that in the end was Aroden)
No, she's not. Aroden sort of was, but that doesn't make Irori the new goddess of humans now.
so as human she is and the clossest to having being a mortal... she might like humans jump heights of power before older and wiser creatures could be the wiser about it...happened to the elves once :P
Actually, the Azlanti had a sponsor: The Aboleths. Then the Azlanti became too arrogant for the Aboleths' taste and they showed them that they were still pathetic little worms - by sinking their whole continent.
The only analogy we have in the divine realms is Zon-Kuthon nee Dou-Bral. He, like the humans, has a sponsor for his added power.
Hey quit using my avatar, you confuse me! :P
Puny mortal, you don't even have an actual avatar.
And it takes considerable skill to climb the career ladder on your knees ;-)
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Erick Wujick is dead!???? (may be old news, but I didn't know) Crap... as much as I hate now Paladium products, I played them a lot when I first got into the hobby. =(
May his soul be in a good place, one far away from broken gaming systems and post-apocalyptic ninja turtles.
Puny mortal, you don't even have an actual avatar.Hey quit using my avatar, you confuse me! :P
Oooh, good one, actually.
Bully for Aroden!
I'm afraid he's got you, lastknightleft, there's nothing for you now but to find antother avatar.
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And it takes considerable skill to climb the career ladder on your knees ;-)
that shows only that she is better than the rest :P so much that they spread lies about her :P
No, she's not. Aroden sort of was, but that doesn't make Irori the new goddess of humans now.
well you are right Irori is to much of an arrogant and self absorved bastard :P he can't be humanity goddess... even if he cross-dresses... that still leaves Iomedae free to do the honors :)
and I suppose the blue-rays tell her long story of success battling evil, good give me 2 copies
Oh no! Who invited Mojo here?
Oh no! Who invited Mojo here?
I know my public and I'm constantly working on expanding my demographic. As a matter of fact, thank you for leading me here. Enjoy two free months of our premium channels as part of our 'refer a planet' program.
and I suppose the blue-rays tell her long story of success battling evil, good give me 2 copies
She struggles, and even wins in the end, just don't show it to your children, I'm interested in keeping a long, profittable relationship with this planet, and that includes the ACMA.
So....what role does Longshot have in this production?
So....what role does Longshot have in this production?
Longshot fans can be assured you'll see more of him in this movie, but I'll let you guys find out as to his role, he appears in act three and, for not being in the protagonic role this time, he had no complains at all. What's more, he was particularly insistent in doing his own 'stunts'.
why do I feel this is not the right portrayal of my goddess gospel?
*he looks at the cleric with a greedy grin* Young lady, ever considered doing television?
And it takes considerable skill to climb the career ladder on your knees ;-)that shows only that she is better than the rest :P so much that they spread lies about her :P
I'm not saying they're lies. I'm not saying it's the truth.
All I'm saying is that she was really eager to get her job.
And that one of her churche's mottos is "The most powerful position is on your knees"
No, she's not. Aroden sort of was, but that doesn't make Irori the new goddess of humans now.well you are right Irori is to much of an arrogant and self absorved bastard :P he can't be humanity goddess... even if he cross-dresses... that still leaves Iomedae free to do the honors :)
Who snuck into my post and put that typo there?
Iomedae! Iomedae isn't the goddess of humans. Arodan was something like the god of humans, but she still isn't. Her portfolio would say so.
Now why did I think of Irori? Right: I was thinking about deities who managed to ascend without outside help. And he's definetly not arrogant. Far from it. Arrogance would be a blemish on his being. He leaves that to the lawful types that just don't get it.
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Who snuck into my post and put that typo there?
Iomedae! Iomedae isn't the goddess of humans. Arodan was something like the god of humans, but she still isn't. Her portfolio would say so.
Now why did I think of Irori? Right: I was thinking about deities who managed to ascend without outside help. And he's definetly not arrogant. Far from it. Arrogance would be a blemish on his being. He leaves that to the lawful types that just don't get it.
*cough* Irori is Lawful Neutral... you can't be more lawful than that... ask Abadar
and no, thanks really no television for me, my way is on the road following my goddess designs and steps... the ones I read, not the lies some SAID she did.
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And it takes considerable skill to climb the career ladder on your knees ;-)that shows only that she is better than the rest :P so much that they spread lies about her :PI'm not saying they're lies. I'm not saying it's the truth.
All I'm saying is that she was really eager to get her job.
And that one of her churche's mottos is "The most powerful position is on your knees"
well I suppose that WAS your church's stance... now we go, head looking high while looking and fighting evil, a sword in hand and fiery ehart, our souls full of her words and justice on our side...
church is for those who are old, sick or infirm, those who need other ways of serving the goddess... the rest of us... we have each our own crusade
*cough* Irori is Lawful Neutral... you can't be more lawful than that...
I know. He is Lawful. But he actually gets it. He does it right. His idea of Order is total disciplin. He appeals to those who want to perfect themselves, body, mind, and soul. His followers don't go around forcing their view onto others. They wander around, they may leave their card, so you know where to find them. If you think his teachings will work for you, he'll greet you with open arms. If you don't think so, he won't harass you.
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*cough* Irori is Lawful Neutral... you can't be more lawful than that...I know. He is Lawful. But he actually gets it. He does it right. His idea of Order is total disciplin. He appeals to those who want to perfect themselves, body, mind, and soul. His followers don't go around forcing their view onto others. They wander around, they may leave their card, so you know where to find them. If you think his teachings will work for you, he'll greet you with open arms. If you don't think so, he won't harass you.
that doesn't make them less arrogant when they rub in our face that their god did ascendend without confronting the dangers, trials and challenges of the Starstone Cathedral that have take thousands upon thousands of life...
and I have heard this they follow by example
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So ... did anyone of import actually answer the original question asked? Lots off topic stuff here.
Not a major stickler about it but come on.
you mean someone related to Paizo? meaning Jacobs or Sean K. Reynolds? nop, not really, but I suppose soemthing of this should have appeared under the topic of Gods & Magic Errata
So ... did anyone of import actually answer the original question asked? Lots off topic stuff here.
Long ago, now enjoy the derailing. =P
So ... did anyone of import actually answer the original question asked? Lots off topic stuff here.
Not a major stickler about it but come on.
That information is only for the gods to know.
Are you a god?