Okie babble
Alright, Vaughan. Why do you need three Texas to make fun of? Cuz I can take you all by myself...you just need two as an audience to watch? That interesting, in a sick sort of way. And you called a Texan a vegetarian...oh, you're dead meat now. Haven't you ever heard of carnivorous plants?
And leave Alleynbard alone. He's reading good Tolkien stuff that is sure to lead him out of his edition confusion, eventually.
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Feist fans are out there, otherwise I doubt his books would still be going! :)
If I had to pick three favorites, they'd be "Magician," "A Darkness at Sethanon," and "Rise of a Merchant Prince." I've tried to get into "Talon of the Silver Hawk" twice now, but so far, it's not as interesting to me for whatever reason. I'll try again soon, I guess...Among the various circles of friends and acquaintances who liked D&D and fantasy, most either never heard of Feist or didn't read anything beyond the Magician books.
My favorites are King's Bucaneer, Shadow of a Dark Queen and Rise of a Merchant Prince. I had a hard time getting through his Krondor series, I gave up halfway through the Tear of the Gods. His new stuff is okay, I'm not really enjoying it like his earlier work, feels like his ideas are running low and certain characters like Pug and Nakor have run their limit.
I actually really like Feist. I have most of the books from the 1990s. My fav book is "Fairy Tale" which had the spider on the cover... well I think it is called that. I have to check... not one of his fantasy ones.
I like what he did with Jenny Wurts in the Empiress series.
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Tolkien is Epic. So in response to D&D not like lotR characters, it actually show how a PARTY of characters work and travel. Most of the examples mentioned here are all SOLO like conan. Sounds like players I want my character to do this, this and this... much like how D&D has evolved into 4th ed.. power to the character first work as a party second. I think Tolkien books are an excellent example of party orientation.
It is easy to get caught up with the individual character as it is what you are playing in a game... but in appendix n and what I think it is meant to do is to show possible sources to help stimulate or proved background setting. D&D has always been about the party, well a main part about party dynamics. The characters working together (generally) to achieve the goal and missions.
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Feist fans are out there, otherwise I doubt his books would still be going! :)If I had to pick three favorites, they'd be "Magician," "A Darkness at Sethanon," and "Rise of a Merchant Prince." I've tried to get into "Talon of the Silver Hawk" twice now, but so far, it's not as interesting to me for whatever reason. I'll try again soon, I guess...
Been reading his books since the beginning. For bloody-handed politics, I recommend Feist's Empire trilogy with Janny Wurts.
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A nebulos thing, but it's the feel of the system. Gritty urban adventures, moral ambiguity (in the editions I prefer), glimpses of terrifying realities, all these are a big part of the D&D experience to me. A system focused more on man-to-man combat that large scale engagements. Ideally, people who aren't defined as good/bad and leader/sheep by just their race, though D&D does often fall down on the former. D&D screams out Conan, Fafhrd, Cugel and the Gray Mouser to me. It rarely screams out Gandalf, a wizard who only occasionally bothered to cast a spell.
The fact that it has dwarves and elves that were frankly often portrayed that way before Tolkien touched them is somewhat incidental to the feel of the game.
Anyhow, it's not something that's terrible quantifiable, which is probably why this particular argument has been going on for more than 25 years.
I can accept what you are saying here and I agree with some of it. Of course, I don't agree with it all and I am pretty sure we are both okay with that. And I will agree that Tolkien isn't a primary influence. But I also think he deserves more credit than all that. I do think D&D is able to model the Lord of the Rings without too much trouble.
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And leave Alleynbard alone. He's reading good Tolkien stuff that is sure to lead him out of his edition confusion, eventually.
I'm really playing the game to give it fair chance. I figure I owe D&D that, even if I am not horribly pleased with how it is going. I must say, something is definitely missing.
If I had my way I think I would want to run a 1e game or an OD&D game right now.
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Veggiboy-I thought your attemots at rabble-rousing were weak and vegetarianesqe. You've gotta' be a real jerk to get it going (though yo mama jokes are always appreciated in my book).Where're Daigle and Heathy, I need some Texans to make fun of.
Aww, hell; I invoked Epic Pooh; if that won't get them going nothing will.
Don't you have to go check the wiring to the brake lights on your flatbed or something?
Chief Creative Officer, Publisher
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Gah! The website ate my original response 54 posts ago, and I come back to see that it didn't stick.
Anyhow, perhaps I was wrong to phrase my avoidance of Tolkien in terms of hope/darkness, because I really don't mean to imply that Golarion is a "dark" world, or that the fantasy of Pathfinder is primarily "Dark Fantasy" or what have you. Nor do I mean to imply that the world of the Pathfinder Chronicles is without hope, for if that were true there would be no need for heroes. Obviously, this is not the case.
It is worth pointing out first and foremost that the purpose of the interview was to ask what influenced _me_ in my design of the world. As James Jacobs has already pointed out, I am far from the only designer in the mix here, and if I attempt to focus on elements suggested by other authors than Tolkien, I'm reasonably certain one of the other staff members or freelancers will cover that ground.
I don't have anything against JRRT or the Lord of the Rings books (or movies!). Despite Gygax's protestations (largely motivated, no doubt, out of legal self-interest), the influence of Tolkien's saga on the races, monsters, and mythic background of the game is self-evident. That stuff is in there whether or not I would prefer it otherwise.
Yes, if I had my druthers, my own campaigns would lack such elements as elves and dwarves and orcs, for the fantasy I prefer is far more often focused on humans. Instead of toppling kingdoms and world-changing artifacts and demihuman nations, the fantasy from which I draw the bulk of my inspiration is interested in smaller, more "human" stories.
But the point is that this isn't just _my_ campaign. If you're basing the world on the fantasy RPG we've played for decades, there's just no getting around things like gruff miner dwarves and woodsy bow-wielding elves and armies of orcs. It's hard-wired into the game, whether I like it or not (and truth be told, I don't really mind it).
I am not anti-Tolkien, I just don't revel in his tropes and prefer to focus on other things. Rest assured, there are plenty of designers on the Pathfinder team who probably think I am just as crazy as you do, and I'm sure they're drawing on JRRT for inspiration in their Pathfinder stuff even as I write this.
I interviewed Raymond Feist for a radio show several years back, when he was promoting Talon of the Silver Hawk. What I found most interesting, as a gamer, was that the initial Magician/Silverthorn/Darkness at Sethanon trilogy grew out of his own love of RPGs.
My memory is a bit patchy, but I seem to remember that he was involved in a group involved in very, very early computer RPGs, which themselves were influenced by D&D.
I still think Magician (a book I love) is one of the most self-consciously D&D books I've read outside the Dragonlance and Forgotten Realms series.
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... I really don't mean to imply that Golarion is a "dark" world, or that the fantasy of Pathfinder is primarily "Dark Fantasy" or what have you. Nor do I mean to imply that the world of the Pathfinder Chronicles is without hope, for if that were true there would be no need for heroes. Obviously, this is not the case...
It could be, and then we might call the PCs 'investigators' instead of 'heroes'...
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Gah! The website ate my original response 54 posts ago, and I come back to see that it didn't stick.
Anyhow, perhaps I was wrong to phrase my avoidance of Tolkien in terms of hope/darkness, because I really don't mean to imply that Golarion is a "dark" world, or that the fantasy of Pathfinder is primarily "Dark Fantasy" or what have you. Nor do I mean to imply that the world of the Pathfinder Chronicles is without hope, for if that were true there would be no need for heroes. Obviously, this is not the case.
It is worth pointing out first and foremost that the purpose of the interview was to ask what influenced _me_ in my design of the world. As James Jacobs has already pointed out, I am far from the only designer in the mix here, and if I attempt to focus on elements suggested by other authors than Tolkien, I'm reasonably certain one of the other staff members or freelancers will cover that ground.
I don't have anything against JRRT or the Lord of the Rings books (or movies!). Despite Gygax's protestations (largely motivated, no doubt, out of legal self-interest), the influence of Tolkien's saga on the races, monsters, and mythic background of the game is self-evident. That stuff is in there whether or not I would prefer it otherwise.
Yes, if I had my druthers, my own campaigns would lack such elements as elves and dwarves and orcs, for the fantasy I prefer is far more often focused on humans. Instead of toppling kingdoms and world-changing artifacts and demihuman nations, the fantasy from which I draw the bulk of my inspiration is interested in smaller, more "human" stories.
But the point is that this isn't just _my_ campaign. If you're basing the world on the fantasy RPG we've played for decades, there's just no getting around things like gruff miner dwarves and woodsy bow-wielding elves and armies of orcs. It's hard-wired into the game, whether I like it or not (and truth be told, I don't really mind it).
I am not anti-Tolkien, I just don't revel in his tropes and prefer to focus on other...
BURN THE HERETIC!
I've heard that people who don't like Tolkien play 4e.
Query:
What is this 'Tolkein' of which you speak of ?
Is it something we can cancel and discontinue ?
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If I had my way I think I would want to run a 1e game or an OD&D game right now.
SEXY.
It's the same with Star Wars for me, honestly; I'm a HUGE fan of sci-fi and space operas and all that, but I'm not a big fan of Star Wars. Wasn't even when the prequel trilogy wasn't around, even.
You break my heart Doctor Jacobs !
It's the same with Star Wars for me, honestly; I'm a HUGE fan of sci-fi and space operas and all that, but I'm not a big fan of Star Wars...
I would mention something about ‘recognizing your foul stench’ but instead:
To the last, I will grapple with thee... from Hell's heart, I stab at thee! For hate's sake, I spit my last breath at thee!
Oh man. I imagine Erik, bleary eyed, having gone through the ringer of superstar judging, compounded with two other deadlines, fueled by a White Castle gorging, but now crashed and half-sprawled across his desk, typing the last words to his post so his soul can be at rest, and then cruel Fata waves her hand and his post his eaten. Suddenly, all his words about hope and grimness become too, too clear.
Seriously, though Erik, I find your explanation illuminating, just as I found your original words provocative. I didn't really want you to have to defend your love for others over Tolkien any more than I wanted to defend my own love for Tolkien over others, but I guess it was inevitable (even then, it's hardly the only flavor of campaign I want to play). I hope everyone will respect, with only good-natured torturing, the fact that the staff is putting themselves out there personally on these interviews, since influences and favorites are rather person, and if they think they're going to regret being so open with us (Jacobs hates Star Wars? And what else, babies and flowers?) then these interviews will be less interesting and informative.
In conclusion, now that everybody acknowledges that Tolkien is king, let's move on to talk about Dune. And I don't mean Jr's crap; that's probably want Vaughan reads.
Actually I now feel the thing that freaks me out most about this entire affair is the strange look on Erik's face and the fact he went to WHITE CASTLE..... might explain a few things.
Honestly, that's the saddest thing about this whole brouhaha. The really important thing didn't get discussed. But don't stare into his eyes, Jester...
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RPG Superstar 2009 Top 8
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Actually I now feel the thing that freaks me out most about this entire affair is the strange look on Erik's face and the fact he went to WHITE CASTLE..... might explain a few things.Honestly, that's the saddest thing about this whole brouhaha. The really important thing didn't get discussed. But don't stare into his eyes, Jester...
I am Canadian. Please explain 'White Castle'.
EDIT: Hmmmm... when I put in my postal code on the White Castle store locator they show me a map of Africa. Odd.
It's the little burgers made and the place that makes them -- see the blog pic of wild-eyed Erik yesterday. Or watch Harold and Kumar.
I'm not sure how to put that in a nutshell. When I was growing up, it's what our friends from the Midwest complained was missing from the Dallas fast food scene.
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Well, Tolkien is as Erik said, hardwired. I would just say that Tolkien created the basic Fantasy setting that everything derives itself from.
That said, Tolkien's LOTR was about a temporal moment. Everything was changing and would never be the same. You felt the pressure of things going one way or another, but they weren't going to stay in check. It was all or nothing. In that sense, you really can't build a fantasy world around that.
I do appreciate the fact that Lord of the Rings has a conclusion. The fantasy world was basically dying and a world like we live in today, was emerging.
Gygax's D&D captured the essence of exploration and adventure found in Tolkien. It took that single part and made it larger than life. And in that, we see just a piece of Tolkien's work played out over and over like a useful method put into several different machines.
Pathfinder today is seriously far from what I first felt playing D&D. Pathfinder is taking ideas and fantasy themes that were never conceivable with 1st Edition. One could say that you alomst have to be 40 years old to seek out Pathfinder, because plain old first, second and third edition has been completely explored by my age group. Pathfinder is a complete hybrid of everything before it. Though it does try to capture Greyhawk to some degree, it sputters way out there into new territory as well. This keeps me entertained for sure.
A 16 year old, however would probably be right at home enjoying a run of the mill Caves of Chaos with Orcs of the deep and much fouler things.
Not to get too far off topic, but I notice that movie reviews tend to say things like, "The same old tired cliche using the old hollywood schtick of tried and true". I understand that reviewers see a lot of movies, but how can they judge a film that is designed for someone that just fell off the turnip truck? Everything old might be new to them.
And they did fall off Turnip truck just recently.
When you have to decide which world is better, you might have to consider that your world might seem better to a person of your age and experience, but the old boring world that you have discarded may still hold a purity that only the youngest of heart can appreciate.
That said.
Zuxius
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D&D screams out Conan, Fafhrd, Cugel and the Gray Mouser to me. It rarely screams out Gandalf, a wizard who only occasionally bothered to cast a spell.
Yes, D&D pulls from those guys but it also screams Gimli the classic Dwarven warrior, Aragorn the ranger and Legolas the Elven archer. Discount it as much as you want but in my book, Tolkien's influence goes just as far as the rest, if not more.
stuff...
He didn't apologize! Get the pitchforks and torches!
/joke
The Blog Entry made me really sad in the morning, but this thread made me happy again :-)
Maybe the original D&D has been further away from Tolkien but when I came to D&D it was through Forgotten Realms and Dragonlance and as a Tolkien Fan I immediately felt at home in both worlds, recognizing Elves, Dwarves, Rangers, Orcs.
I think I would not have been interested in playing if D&D would had felt like Conan or Lovecraft.
I am a big fan of Lovecraft, but it is absolutely not what I like to play at the gaming table. So, for me personally, Fantasy = Tolkien = D&D.
Playing (or writing, or reading) Fantasy would not be the same without Tolkien’s influence today.
Ironic side note:
Erik and Jason as Fantasy artists aren’t big fans of Tolkien.
Tolkien as Professor for English Language and Literature wasn’t a fan of Shakespeare (in fact he really despised him, according to Carpenter’s biography)
It's the little burgers made and the place that makes them -- see the blog pic of wild-eyed Erik yesterday. Or watch Harold and Kumar.What is the cultural significance?
Think of it as Tim's, with burgers instead of coffee.
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I'm not sure how to put that in a nutshell. When I was growing up, it's what our friends from the Midwest complained was missing from the Dallas fast food scene.
As a resident of Columbus, OH. (headquarters of the company since 1933) I can confirm that White Castle was not only a burger but a cultural phenomenon. I have eaten White Castle since I was a wee lad. I can still remember late night White Castle feasts courtesy of my grandmother. As unhealthful as that sounds.
A White Castle burger is a slider, if that means anything to anyone. A delicious little slider of doom. But nothing like the sliders you might find at a modern, casual eating establishment.
I was also led to believe that White Castle was very similar to Krystal burgers in the south.
I'm not sure how to put that in a nutshell. When I was growing up, it's what our friends from the Midwest complained was missing from the Dallas fast food scene.As a resident of Columbus, OH. (current headquarters of the company) I can confirm that White Castle was not only a burger but a cultural phenomenon. I have eaten White Castle since I was a wee lad. I can still remember late night White Castle feasts courtesy of my grandmother. As unhealthful as that sounds.
A White Castle burger is a slider, if that means anything to anyone. A delicious little slider of doom. But nothing like the sliders you might find at a modern, casual eating establishment.
I was also led to believe that White Castle was very similar to Krystal burgers in the south.
God I hope not - Krystal burgers are nasty.
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Director of Brand Strategy
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How a Tolkien fan saved my life and turned me into a lifelong reader.
What a great story. I see the train of collective thought was not swayed by your attempt to threadjack, but I'll bite. As someone who was already an avid reader, and fan of fantasy (though not really having read or even played anything in the genre), I too was greatly inspired in 5th grade by a teacher who gave me a copy of The Hobbit to read in class since I was bored with the lame lessons everyone else still had to learn. I stopped acting out and spent the rest of the year reading all the fantasy I could while everyone else read vocabulary workbooks and practiced remedial math. Luckily, I know the teacher's name and have had the opportunity to thank her since then. You should try to get your tale published in teachers' magazines and such. See if Mr. Mairkurion could be found...
It seems that the point is being missed.
A written work can be changed by a single protagonist or group of protagonists precisely because it is a singular body of written work by an author or cooperative group of authors. Such massive-scale effects evidenced by those authors' seminal works are what in D&D is best effected as "High-Epic" play, the end result of truly LONG term game play, both in game time and in real time.
What Paizo is trying to do, by tossing Tolkien, Lovecraft, Howard and a hundred+ others' works into the mixtures of influential work is, as has been pointed out previously, to create a setting that is influenced in smaller pieces. The post-Dungeon Adventure Paths are all that way - they result in high-yield changes on a small geographic region.
A possible examination of Adventure Paths in the future could go something like this:
- Adventure Path 7 starts from 1st level, concluding at 13th level, small regional change results with a large impact on that small geographic area. Player characters are heroes/villains as a result, but only 2 or 3 survive the conclusion. Example of this is Rise of the Runelords - one of the Runelords was awoken and presumably destroyed, surviving characters return the local heroes of Sandpoint and points surround.
- Adventure Path 8 similarly starts from 1st level and concluding at 13th level, small regional change of large impact for a different, somewhat distant geographic area. 2 or 3 surviving characters. Example of this is Curse of the Crimson Throne, seeing the infamous bloody crown and throne change hands twice during the AP, with the surviving heroes having affected massive change on an entire city-state and its immediate environs.
- Adventure Path 9 starts at level 13, weaving together elements from Adventure Paths 7 and 8. An element of having bought the farm in certain high-powered areas blocks out characters that were reincarnated, raised or resurrected - perhaps even the faint, lingering aura / contamination / taint of the permanent negative level resulting from having been messily dispatched then magically returned to among the living is sufficient to block receiving the subtle "bat signal" that starts the AP. This draws together the 4 to 6 surviving characters from Adventure Paths 7 and 8 to the beginning of AP 9. Adventure Path 9 sees BBEG's from 7 and 8 cooperating to exact a bloody posthumous vengeance upon the characters - perhaps they brutally murder the 'tainted' heroes "behind the curtain" - or various NPCs associated with the conveyance of clues and otherwise contributing to the BBEGs' demise and/or plans being thwarted. Using RotRL and CotCT as examples, Karzhoun returns by means of a ritually-prepared back up that activates a previously dormant phylactery, returning as an enhanced lich. Ileosa, having escaped - or her infamy having garnered Karzhoun's attention during his recovery, is wished back to the living - and with his assistance is able to either remove or block the attentions of having sold her soul to Old Scratch. While their minions are scattered across Varisia butchering NPCs, minions, followers and perhaps a few cohorts and former player characters, the duo are unfolding a many-layered scheme that reclaims their dominions, expands them - and does so at the right moment that, if their plans go as calculated, draws the last elements of power from the very beings that thwarted them before: the player characters.
Just an idea on my end of what Paizo has in mind, or could have in mind, for both Golarion and for their future product for years to come.
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Earthsea by Ursula Grin anyone?
God...I hated that book!!... in my top 10 worse books I have ever read or listened to... that is number 1!
I will never understand why people hold this book in such high regard..
That said.. I am not really a Tolkien fan... Huge George R.R. Martin, Robert Jordan, Feist fan...
Edit:... let be more specific on Tolkien.. I Love Tolkien's Stories... I just do not like his writing.. I enjoyed a 100x more watching the movies then reading the novels... Understood?
HEY! Pushes Moonie. Get back to the LeGuin hatin' thread, before I start reading Tolkien out loud...or better yet, put on my CDs of Tolkien reading Tolkien.
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Well to be precise... the aftermath of White Castle is nasty.Well, a lot of people think White Castle is nasty. So, it is very likely a similar comparison.
God I hope not - Krystal burgers are nasty.
Ahhh fine memories of spending many hours near the toilet after White Castle....
It is like the same Anticipation of spending many hours near a phone after giving a hot chick your number... the only difference being using the toilet a lot and never hearing the phone ring..
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HEY! Pushes Moonie. Get back to the LeGuin hatin' thread, before I start reading Tolkien out loud...or better yet, put on my CDs of Tolkien reading Tolkien.
ugg... there is nothing worse then an Author reading his own Novels.... *Tries to hold his stomach down*
;-)
Ah... Joyce on Joyce: The Best of Ulysses :-)
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I am Canadian. Please explain 'White Castle'.
White Castle is to beauty that is In N Out as is The G RPG is to our home that is Paizo
OK, I don't have a "the magic of the book turned me into a learner" story like Dr. TD, because I was always crazy about books. But I do have a vivid memory of book that made a huge impression on me, and that prepared me for the D&D-which-was-to-come.
In my public elementary school, we participated in some kind of free book program (can't remember the name) whereby ever once in a while, we were led to the library, which had been covered it seemed in new free books, and were allowed to choose one to keep. In fourth grade on such an occasion, I saw a deep purple paperback that had on it a roughly drawn figure with a horned helm and chose it. Roger Lancelyn Green's retellings of the Norse myths hit me like a thunderbolt. I had been introduced to Greek mythology years before in a picture book and had liked them, but here were fuller stories of an even more magical world, to my tastes. Gods, elves, dwarves, magic, and trickery came pouring into my imagination and camped out, waiting for the surprise delivery of a red box one day when I was home sick to set them free.
RLG fun fact:
Mairkurion ...If you say the the Greek Mythology book you had as a child was >>THIS ONE<< I will seriously start whistling the Twilight Zone theme. My parents got me this in the first grade when I started peppering them with mythology questions.
Nope. That's a great book, and when I taught at a charter school, we used it with...I want to say the first graders. This was some kind of odd, I want to say Reader's Digest, history book that included stuff about mythology. It was thick and blue, and according to my memory, pretty decently illustrated.
So did you have the (purple) Green book, Patrick?
Nope, my parents must have missed that one. I had a weird reading list as a child ...But having two elementary teachers as parents will do that to you. I was doing Grimms' fairy tales, LotR, Heinlein and the most fantastic old six-book fairy tale anthology called My Bookhouse. Like you I had all these oddballs camping in my memory until I got a AD&D PHB and they all came flying out.
