Thus far I have been avoiding this topic, namely because there are so many people that feel so strongly about this issue.
As for me, I personally love Psionics. I love Psionics because its always been a different option for character creation or for creating unique villains. Its nice to be able to use an NPC Villain who has unusual abilities that the players may not see too often. I feel much the same way about being able to make a character who is 'different and unique' as well.
As for the idea of a Sorcerer 'who just does it with his mind'...no. That isn't Psionics. Some people may argue this point against me, thats your opinion. I very very firmly don't agree with that idea.
Partially to me, Psionics is about flavor (while playing the character in-game) and about the character feeling different mechanically out of game. If its an issue of just calling some magic 'psionics' then I don't really see the point.
Well, in my experience, people like playing psions because there's a little bit of Professor Xavier or Magneto in each of us and because the PP system is much more versatile than the Vancian system. Hell, I'd have all spell-casters using a modified PP/spell point system, but that obviously can't the PF standard.
If you like those concepts Psycrystals Expanded will run you $2.50 USD. Assuming you are okay with reserve feats for arcane/divine casters there is another pdf they sell that is essentially the psionic version of them that goes for the same price, Sequestral Feats. The only reason I link it is you cannot beat the price and you sound genuinely interested. I'm sure that second would spark more than a few ideas as well and can open up some doors for psychic warriors who are usually limited in power. Seeing as it will be some time until Paizo decides on doing anything psionic I'd say they are well worth the money to tide you over with some goodies until then. Our DM tends to try things out as an NPC before allowing us to use them when they are really different. One it lets him see how they work and two it lets the PC's see something different. If the npc does something truly unique and interesting invariably one of us will question him about it and playing one at some point, the same might work for you if you'd like to introduce psionics and if you use the rules from the Dreamscarred and don't tell the PC's while you are playing it might entice them even more with these "weird new powers". Assuming Paizo goes a way I don't care for/doesn't do anything with psionics this company's stuff is what I'll be using. Not to say everything is gold, there are some oddities/some things I don't care for, but all in all good...Skylancer,
But what really caught my attention from your post is the idea of the psi-crystal becoming something entirely more then just say a gem you have in your pocket. I like the idea of morphing into a psi-weapon or it being imbedded in a manifester's body as the examples you gave. Similar to say alternate rules for a paladin in the Mongoose publishing line where instead of a mount, they received a bonded weapon.
Skylancer4,
Sorry for my delayed response. Was on vacation and away from the home computer kept me from responding. Thank you for the additional information and linking them. I'll probably end up getting those sources.
As a side note for those who don't want psionics as just an "add-on" to core, it should be worth mentioning the abberation bloodline powers of the sorcerer, somthing which would be more fitting to a psionic character (in fact, if I recall correctly theres already abberation heritage feats in complete psionic).
I like psionics, as per the XPH. It is akin to magic, but not quite - more of an alternative magic system (for those who miss those mana points) than anything else. The power names are the only thing that is sci-fi imo, the powers itself are not much different from arcane and divine spells.
I'd definitely like to see how Pathfinder adapts the XPH classes. Personally, I think three of them - psion, wilder and psychic warrior - are good enough to work with a minimal conversion. The soulknife... meh, this one might be a bit of a challenge to rework :)
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This.1) Take the existing psionics rules.
2) Actually playtest them. In a big, open playtest if necessary*.
3) Plug up all of the infinite-this, nova-that loopholes.
4) Remove unnecessary redundancy. (Psionic item creation feats, I'm looking at you.)
I, too, will sign this.
Honestly, I like psionics. I have ever since they were first introduced. I know they were horrific abominations in rule terms with 2e, which has contaminated the POV of a great many players; 3e was better done, and 3.5's XPH was a solid step toward making them workable. There are loopholes and and flaws, and pointlessly redundant components, yes. Knowledge: psionics working with spellcraft is a better deal than the goofy-sounding 'psycraft', and there's no reason an item creation feat can't be used by anyone - if you have the power or spell and the feat to create the item, you should be able to do so.
But don't throw the baby out with the bathwater. Pathfinder has been revising and tweaking, not completely rebuilding from scratch. Wizards are still wizards, they're just less squishable. Fighters can stand up to high-level encounters more readily. Psionics should be handled the exact same way: revise the problems, tweak the power curve to align better, and don't resort to scrapping a perfectly functional system. Give it the Paizo/Pathfinder treatment, not the 'scrap it all' style other companies (not just WotC; remember the old/new World of Darkness debacle?) use.
Nice point on the Psionic healer, Nightflier. As to whether that should be a power-chain and Prestige class as was once handled over at WotC, I don't know. It was an interesting class that actually made a Psionic Healer very tough to kill. It made some good sense that someone with Psionic influence over healing could control some ways that they themselves were damaged.
Overall, I am with Kassil. I like the XPH rules. There should be tweaks and changes here and there, but overall the system is pretty darn sound. I've played and run numerous Psionic characters and NPCs under it and have yet to find something totally gamebreaking.
Going through the system and retooling it where needed, giving it that lovely Paizo polish should go a long way towards correcting any issues left within the system. Not to mention, retooling an existing system, while still time intensive, is not anywhere near as time consuming as building a new one from scratch!
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Perhaps we need just an addition to the existing rules, not a completely new system. Existing psionic classes should be made compatible with PRPG rules, and fine-tuned a little bit, some new classes and races added and powers and disciplines redefined. The existing system should be slightly fine-tuned as well, but not completely scratched. Just my opinion, but whatever you do, don't do away with psion and soulknife, please.
I just want to say Thank You to all of you who are clamoring for us at Dreamscarred Press. It brings a big smile to my face to know that we've done such a good job that you guys are out there, telling the world about us.
Given the opportunity, we would be honoured to write "Pathfinder Psionics", giving it both an update to keep in line with how the PFRPG has turned out and to fix all of those (small) problems that do exist within the system.
/Andreas Rönnqvist
Dreamscarred Press
I for one enjoy psionic and the XPH system. With that being said I believe that there could be some room for improvement. I really enjoy the versatility of the point system, but not its ability to nova. Now the ability to nova is balance if your group fights more than one battle a day, but if you don't it becomes really over powering. The easiest way to do this is to remove the overchannel or talented feat.
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So I'm asking you:
What does Psionics mean to you?
How can I get you to buy a psionics book and use it in your campaign?
What is an absolute deal-breaker?
Thanks again for the give-and-take.
--Erik
I'm one of those folks who really, really love psionics.
I love having a system of powers that's different from magic.I'm such a fan that I had Bruce sign my XPHB. I'm such a fan that I worked my butt of to get a psionic adventure published in Dungeon.
I play psychic warriors a lot. I like thri-kreen, I like the other new races. I like the new classes. I make plenty of room for it in my campaign.
Does the book need an upgrade, probably not. Maybe a Pathfinder conversion page or something on the website. But the XPHB a good book as is.
You could get me to by a Pathfinder version and use it if you create a solid reworking of what people concieve psionics to be.
It needs a historical precident in a campaign setting.
Right now, its a disembodied rules system, so people don't know how to integrate it...
Like, sorcerers get their powers from dragon blood, or aberrant blood or whatever.
Mental powers from the self is an ok explanation. It works in a general sense, but man.. I'd be really stoked if psionics was like a natural power from Azlant or something, like in a Lost Age of Azlant book.
Something a GM could run another campaign in, or maybe time travel to.. but also something that has historical ties to those gaming in the present. So like you might be born with sleeping talent, or might beable to steal it using ritual blood transfusions, or track down Azlantan decendants living on other planets or whatever...
If a concerted effort was made to tie Psionics to Golarion in way that kept them rare and mysterious, but still made them feel like they fit in; and had a PathfinderRPG upgrade... I'd buy that book.
Getting into this rather late, but I love psionics. I didn't mind letting players run psionic charatcers. I even played a psion and a soulknife when I wasn't DMing. I like the point system and I think it works fine. The first 3 pages of this thread Mr. Jacobs said that a psionic character could blow all there power points. Well yes they can dump more points into a power but the amount they can dump is equal to there manifester level. I don't think that is overpowering things much. We played with the rule set that a dispel magic would work against psionics and vis-versa. I would buy a psionic book if published and updated to the new pathfinder rules. Some things do need to be fixed the soulknife is one of them. I would hope to see psionics become a staple at the game table. Two out of my six players love to play them as well. They really would like to see the core psion classes updated to pathfinder rules. People are going to have a lot of ideas about this topic and what should or shouldn't be done to fix things. I tend to think that the overall current rules are not bad they just need to be tweaked some like you guys have been doing to the 3.5 system. That's my two coppers worth.
Psionics means Science Fiction period. There is no basis in real world legends for it and there are a whole lot of monsters in the game books that would be horribly disadvantaged against a Player Psionicist.
What does Psionics mean to you?How can I get you to buy a psionics book and use it in your campaign?
--Erik
I like the ICE* method of "Mentalism" style of magic to be used as the basis for psionics - when talking about the "average" fantasy rpg world (like Greyhawk, FR, Golarion, etc..). It makes it so that there isn't such a striking difference between magic and psionics that it is nearly impossible to get them to interact. It's all well and good to give them a different feel for immersion purposes, but for ease of play they need to be able to interact - like, a dispel magic having a chance of dispelling a psionic effect & vice-versa.
Now, for d20 psionics I like the Expanded Psionics Handbook. In fact, for a while I was working on a whole new world based upon the races in that book - where magic was kept from the populous by the illithid overlords. That is until one of the main characters (read: PC) was born a natural sorceror.
* I like Rolemaster & HARP better than d20 (by far) so I would probably not get another d20 psionics book - unless it had fantastic ideas that I can transport and ART!ART!ART! to use for a game.
Psionics means Science Fiction period. There is no basis in real world legends for it and there are a whole lot of monsters in the game books that would be horribly disadvantaged against a Player Psionicist.
Actually, many theorists postulate that the concept of magic is based upon the "reality" of psionics. A guy able to pull the spear to himself from 20 feet (telekinesis) would be a "magician" in the eyes of a primitive....
Psionics means Science Fiction period.
Vancian magic comes from Jack Vance's Dying Earth, a Sci-Fi. D'n'D Magic means science fiction more-so than psionics, period.
Since this is a thread asking for feedback; I'll throw my lot in with the "please make sure it is easily separated" - e.g. please dont make it a big part of the pathfinder campaign. For me psionics and magic do not mix in the same campaign. Others will surely disagree.
Its like the Tome of Battle - you either have the whole campaign including baddies, goodies and in-betweenies all using the stuff to keep a level playing field or you make it an "npc/monster-only" thing like S3/barrier peaks. e.g. A once-in-a-campaign encounter where characters may get some limited use but do not become masters. Really just used for flavor; Not the basis of the entire campaign.
If the "Pathfinder World" gets mixed up with psionics, then it will be a sad day.
I don't mean to offend, just responding to the feedback request.
~D
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Psionics means Science Fiction period. There is no basis in real world legends for it and there are a whole lot of monsters in the game books that would be horribly disadvantaged against a Player Psionicist.
I take it you are unfamiliar with references to 'mentalism' being around for a fair amount of time, then, without references to mutation, evolution, or similar developments somewhere in The Future?
RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
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Psionics means Science Fiction period. There is no basis in real world legends for it and there are a whole lot of monsters in the game books that would be horribly disadvantaged against a Player Psionicist.
How? Please please set up the strawmen, I'm having writer's block and need easy targets.
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I don't agree, but I can see what they mean in Psionics = Sci-fi. In most Sci-Fi things, magic means wierd occult hooy, that fakes use to trick the supersticious. However, Psionic and psychic people are a rare few individuals that have developed a (completely natural and human) part of the brain to do their stuff, or been changed somehow (near death experience, charged with energy, etc. . .), so that they gain these abilities, but are still semirational and explainable.
I don't mind Psionics. I am not a particular fan, but, under the right circumstances, I am not against it either. As long as it does not step on Divine or Arcane Magic, and is not grossly broken (i.e. not equivelant), to favor Psionics over the other two, I am just fine with it.
The last thing I have to say is that I think Psionics really needs to find it's own little corner of what it is. There is already a source or "it comes from within" (Cleric/Druid) and "ability to manipulate the energies of the world" (Wizard). There is already the "it is just a part of me" (Sorcerer/Bard/Etc. . .). Don't try and make the explanation for Psionics any of those things.
Actually, now that I think about it, what if no one knows where Psionics comes from?
I have been waiting a while before posting an opinion on this topic. Being an advid Psionics fan, I wanteed to hear what everyone else on the boards had to say. Unfortunately, it seems the opinions are very much the same. A majority of people who DO NOT WANT IT and a minority of us who say, "Just give it a try within the scope of the new rules."
The good thing is that I have noticed more Pro-psionic fans posting their opinions and with logical/rational points. Not, "We don't like it because it doesn't fit our idea of fantasy, so we don't want it." I think everyone needs to realize that every player CAN have different visions of what is and is not fantasy to them. However, I don't agree that something with a large following should be left out of the Pathfinder rules (Of course an accessory book, not the core book), simply due to someone's personal taste.
I'm sure there are a few people who could go either way with it. How can they get a taste of psionics if there is no Paizo Pathfinder Psionic accessory? They can't! Just think of how small a portion of the U.S. gamer population is... If everyone who did not like gaming was able to prevent it, just because they did not personally like it,we would not have gaming as we know it today. Well the same goes for psionics and Pathfinder. Albeit on a much smaller scale. what gives ANYONE the right on these boards to dictate their "taste" of Fantasy or Sci-Fi as the ONLY definition of such, without refutation? IT DOES NOT!
Please do not take this post as a dig at anyone particular. That is why I have posted it, not replied to anyone specifically. Almost everyone on these boards has always been polite, considerate, and informative to me. I would like to continue that same decorum.
Lastly, I would like to finally post my opinion on what Psionics means to me. Quite simply, if you have seen the movie Push, then it screams everything Psionic for me. Telepath powers, Clairvoyance, Telekinesis, different disciplines, subtle powers, and some flashy powers. I like 3.5 Psionics and think they are the best so far. However, I think there is alot that can be done to sharpen the rules and close some loopholes. I think looking towards what Dreamscarred Press has done with their various products would be a good start. Also I would like to see a more robust Psionic Combat system than what is offered (or lack thereof) in 3.5 Psionics Handbook. I like the flavor of the Combat modes, although they would need a much needed update.
The things I would not like to see; NO Pathfinder Psionic Accessory.
Everything else Psionic is welcomed.
I trust the designers at Paizo and like what they have done with 3.5ed. Therefore, I would trust them to make good decisions concerning psionics. Especially if they tapped the creative Pychich geniuses at Dreamscarred Press. I'm really glad (as usual) that Eric Mona and the rest of the great minds at Paizo have enlisted our opinions and seem to be looking towards the creation of a Pathfinder Psionic system. Thanks Paizo! Also, thank everyone for reading through my little rant. Sorry it took so long.
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Psionics means Science Fiction period. There is no basis in real world legends for it
Barring Celtic or Romani or classical Greek 'real world legends' which abound with people with 'The Sight' or 'visions of the future,' such as the Oracle at Delphi or Cassandra.
Quite a few 'psionic' powers, such as ESP/clairvoyance have been traditional mainstays of magical practices, such as 'scrying' or 'crystal-gazing.'
Entire types of magic, such as Norse seithr, are easily represented as psionic powers of mind control, mind-reading and ESP. Paranormal research doesn't distinguish between 'magic' and 'psi' when studying a shamanic practitioners effects. When a shaman 'spirit walks,' is he magically casting his soul out of his body or is he psychically projecting an astral self or is he just high out of his gourd on peyote, and due to his cultural beliefs, perceiving exactly the sort of 'spirit walk' that he's expecting to perceive?
Many fantasy novels include psionic effects, or even use psionic effects *as* magic. The 'magic' of the witches of Andre Norton's Witch World or of the Deryni or of the 'gods' in Creatures of Light and Darkness are all either clearly defined as psionic, or at least suggestive of psionics. Marvel comics goes flat out and assigns personal mental powers like telepathy and telekinesis and astral projection as one of the four 'types of magic' that a Sorcerer Supreme masters, with others including invocations of otherworldly entities (Crimson Bands of who? Eye of what?), etc.
It's easy enough to draw some patently artificial line between magic and psionics, but such a line didn't exist in ancient myth, nor does it exist in classical or modern fantasy fare. People didn't care how that wise woman's 'Sight' worked. She saw things that others should not have seen and some consulted her, and others thought she should be burned at the stake. People didn't care whether or not it was an evil spirit possessing the boy, or latent telekinetic abilities, they just wanted stuff to stop flying around the room and the 'poltergiest' to be gone.
The last thing I have to say is that I think Psionics really needs to find it's own little corner of what it is. There is already a source or "it comes from within" (Cleric/Druid) ...Actually, now that I think about it, what if no one knows where Psionics comes from?
Ummm... I thought clerics prayed to their gods and were granted their spells via these deities? I mean, that is literally what it has said for pretty much all of third edition. And druids revere and commune with nature... not just shooting lightning by focusing on it.
But beyond that, the way I'm using Psionics in my current game was actually inspired by the circular time line of the illithids. The only current psion (a PC) is actually an explorer from the far future who was caught in a temporal rift. She is gifted with the ability to sense and harness the energies of the Universe, but I still use magic/psi transparency. It's simply that in her time magic is not thought of as magic. People don't pray to gods, they don't read dusty tomes of power and memorize spells. They simply learn to call upon that energy directly with their minds. Kind of how any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic.
She can still sense magic, and even understands the schools of magic now that is has been explained to her. She simply is attuned to it slightly differently. What she considers negative energy is usually necromancy, conjuration is sensed as spatial distortion, divination is described as a sense of being watched times ten, etc, etc.
It takes a little more effort I guess, but it actually makes a really interesting story. And my players are happy with it, which is the most important part to me.
Oh, and to answer the original question of this thread, I think there really doesn't need to be too much updating for Pathfinder psionics. Maybe give the different specializations abilities kind of like the wizard schools, think about getting rid of the crystal familiar (I always thought the idea of a sentient pet rock was silly), and there is definitely some need for a psionic healer.
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My take on Psi?
1) Crystals, Tattoos, Psiskins/ectoplasm: Psionics is different and alien (even if it is done with the same mechanics as magic). The different form items for psionic characters take, as well as for their prestige classes helps a lot with that. Ref. Crystal Master from the Mind's Eye.
2) An enlightened feel: Even the most corrupt psi should have a solid understanding of body and mind, think calm and creepy rather than spittle-flying rage. Ref. the Quori from Eberron
3) Mind and Body: Understanding the full depths of the mind brings with it an understanding of the body. I'm not looking for every psi to be a monk, but rather enhancing their body (temporarily or permanently) with their mind. Ref. Half the feats in XPH ;P
4) Compatible with the tone and feel of the Kalashtar (Eberron) and with Dark Sun.
5) Mark Jindra, Bruce Cordell, or Troy Denning being consulted for ideas. I can hope ;)
My deal breakers?
1) Speaking of Troy Denning, I'm a Dark Sun fan. If it can't be adapted to the setting, or if the rules would cause major problems with it, I won't allow them in my campaign.
Bonuses
1) Some unique organizations and flavored prestige classes for them. Each with a definite "feel".
2) Interesting monsters, I still have my Dark Sun issues of Dungeon and Dragon magazine, and I'm always happy to have a strange psi-critter crawl, hop, or fly out of the wastes at my unsuspecting players ;P
Thanks, and I can't wait to see what Paizo puts together for Psi. Oh, and one last thing for my wish list: Continued support, Psi doesn't have to be in a core book, it would just be nice for it not to be the hated, illegitimate step-child of Pathfinder... as it often has come across in D&D.
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Psionics means Science Fiction period. There is no basis in real world legends for it and there are a whole lot of monsters in the game books that would be horribly disadvantaged against a Player Psionicist.
???- really, why? Its a system. I mean, you're talking semantics now.
As I said before, what needs to be reworked is proper flavor text, so the concept of psionics works in a fantasy setting.For that matter- what do mystical mental powers have to do with science anyway. Psionics came out of pulp- which blurred genres like crazy- mostly because science 100 years ago lacked the level understand we have now.
All that aside, the question should be.. do these rules work and are they fun?
I also disagree that the current psionic system is all that unbalanced, and if Paizo is talking about a new book- the option remains for adjusting some of that balance.
i agree with epic meepo he wrote:
How can I get you to buy a psionics book and use it in your campaign?
1) Take the existing psionics rules.
2) Actually playtest them. In a big, open playtest if necessary*.
3) Plug up all of the infinite-this, nova-that loopholes.
4) Remove unnecessary redundancy. (Psionic item creation feats, I'm looking at you.)
*I know there are plenty of folks out there who already have ingenious house rules that make the existing point-based system work properly instead of blowing up the universe with its untied loose ends.
Erik Mona wrote:
What is an absolute deal-breaker?
Yet another non-backwards compatible psionics system. I'm quite tired of psionics being redesigned every time the game gets updated. If people keep rebuilding the system from scratch every few years instead of actually playtesting and perfecting what they already have, it's never going to work right.
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Mindblade should probably be a feat line. I'm likely to knee-jerk avoid any book that says that changes the psionic system too much.for that matter, one that insists psionics is Sci-fi.
i'm absolutely in the minority that loves psionics as it is. give it the same love you've given the rest of the core and you'll be set.
I would like to note that psionics is already described a bit in the Pathfinder Campaign Setting. It is mentioned in the half-elf racial description and given a couple of pages describing connections to the Darklands, far-off continents, and other planets in the Pathfinder campaign setting.
I just wanted to chime in to say that I think the best thing that could be done for Pathfinder psionics is to let the guys over at Dreamscarred Press write it. Seriously, they have the love for the game, the creativity, and the design gravitas to make it absolutely incredible. There's no one else I'd rather have helming that project.
I believe I have strong feelings against this. Not because I don't like what I have seen from Dreamscarred Press, but because I think that it would mean I would never see a psionics book by Paizo. Only a book by Dreamscarred Press with the Paizo logo slapped on.
If I want a Dreamscarred Press book, I will want it to be made by Dreamscarred Press. If I want it from Paizo, I will want it to be done, or at least controlled, by Paizo.
I think I would be disappointed if the project was just handed off to Dreamscarred Press, as that would imply to me that no one at Paizo really cared that much what the final product would be and, because they don't care about those psionic rules, it would be unlikely that those rules receive support from Paizo in modules, companions, adventure paths, or other books.
I would not have objection to them being involved, just that I think a Paizo product like this should be controlled by Paizo.
What does Psionics mean to you?
Psionics mean never having to say "I'm sorry"...
Okay, now seriously. Psionics is not just another way to power but, simply put, a completely different paradigm, and by different I mean different from my usual paradigm of fantasy. When I want to play in a fantasy world I usually think of a mighty warrior, a powerful magic user, or a crafty adventurer... not a psion. Psionics is usually something I think of for different settings like superheroes or sci-fi.
How can I get you to buy a psionics book and use it in your campaign?
Give me reasons why I'd -want- to play a psion instead of a magic user, give me -ten things only psions can do-. When two sources of power are equivalent to the point of being near-interchangeable, then the one which arrived last becomes redundant.
What is an absolute deal-breaker?
I never knew psionics properly neither in 2E nor 3E, so I can't say I have any expectatives about how they should or shouldn't be, so I don't think there would be a particular "deal breaker" on my side. In addition, psionics certainly can be handled in a way much more friendly with game balance as there are no "psionic miracles" in fantasy tales I'd expect you guys replicating with Pathfinder (while I don't like PF spells, I may like PF psionics considerably better).
For all the people that feel 3.5 Psionics is broken -- how is it broken? What loopholes exist? What can Psions do that is more broken than what the core big 3 (Druid/Cleric/Wizard) can already do?
Also, I don't think some people understand (or didn't fully read) the rules in the XPH. The main claims to brokenness I've heard are that you can pump as many power points into a power as you have available, which is false. You can normally only use PP = to your manifester level, with small bonuses from Overchannel or Wilder (and appropriate penalties). Also, monsters/NPCs are no more weak to Psionics than they are to Divine and Arcane magic (Spell Resistance = Power Resistance,etc.).
Back on topic -- some other posters have this right. The XPH as it stands is a solid, decently balanced book. Don't reinvent the wheel yet again -- do what you've done for core 3.5 and tweak, playtest, and tweak some more. A rewrite (beyond fluff) is not necessary.
For all the people that feel 3.5 Psionics is broken -- how is it broken? What loopholes exist? What can Psions do that is more broken than what the core big 3 (Druid/Cleric/Wizard) can already do?
Here's the base brokenness: DMing styles (this example is a few years old since I no longer game with this group and haven't seen anyone play a psion since). My DM use to throw 1 encounter per day at us. 2 tops. He wasn't being nice, he just wanted to ignore the CR rules and throw whatever he felt like throwing at us at us. To compensate for his broken way of encounter design, he limited himself to 1 encounter per day.
1 guy played a Psion, I played a wizard. Just looking at the straight SRD, the Psion had 88 power points while I had 2 5th level spells, 3 4th level spells, 3 3rd level spells, etc. Because the guy playing a psion knew that he was only going to face a single encounter today, he'd dump all his power points into only 5th level powers and overpower every single one. Every time. Me, I could do my best spells twice.
I have nothing against the way that Psions are right now. In the hands of the right players Psionics would be thing of beauty. But I also know that I am not the only one with this experience.
Here's the base brokenness: DMing styles (this example is a few years old since I no longer game with this group and haven't seen anyone play a psion since). My DM use to throw 1 encounter per day at us. 2 tops. He wasn't being nice, he just wanted to ignore the CR rules and throw whatever he felt like throwing at us at us. To compensate for his broken way of encounter design, he limited himself to 1 encounter per day.
1 guy played a Psion, I played a wizard. Just looking at the straight SRD, the Psion had 88 power points while I had 2 5th level spells, 3 4th level spells, 3 3rd level spells, etc. Because the guy playing a psion knew that he was only going to face a single encounter today, he'd dump all his power points into only 5th level powers and overpower every single one. Every time. Me, I could do my best spells twice.
I have nothing against the way that Psions are right now. In the hands of the right players Psionics would be thing of beauty. But I also know that I am not the only one with this experience.
The game is not built to be run around 1-2 encounters per day, though. Also, the PC themselves don't necessarily know they're only going to have 1 big fight a day. Novaing is a good way to get yourself killed later on.
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The last thing I have to say is that I think Psionics really needs to find it's own little corner of what it is. There is already a source or "it comes from within" (Cleric/Druid) ...Actually, now that I think about it, what if no one knows where Psionics comes from?
Ummm... I thought clerics prayed to their gods and were granted their spells via these deities? I mean, that is literally what it has said for pretty much all of third edition. And druids revere and commune with nature... not just shooting lightning by focusing on it.
Only the DragonLance (partially), and Forgotten Realms require a Cleric to pray to deities. In all other cases, including basic core 3.0+, Clerics can go without worship of any deity, whatsoever. Their power comes from their faith, and their ability to channel divine energies, not the deity(s). This isn't my view, this is how it works, including in Pathfinder. I hope they keep Psionics from encroaching on this.
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1 guy played a Psion, I played a wizard. Just looking at the straight SRD, the Psion had 88 power points while I had 2 5th level spells, 3 4th level spells, 3 3rd level spells, etc. Because the guy playing a psion knew that he was only going to face a single encounter today, he'd dump all his power points into only 5th level powers and overpower every single one. Every time. Me, I could do my best spells twice.
I've ran into this situation as well, and it really burned my enjoyment. I was a Cleric and he was a 3.5 Nomad. We got to this room that was filled with zombies and other undead. Literally about a hundred. My Cleric was optimized for Turning, and with the Sun Domain, he burned through the room in like three rounds. First, it was just unbelievable, throwing out 60ft cone after 60ft cone. Second, he completely stole my characters glory and spotlight, than when on and stole the Fighters spotlight when he oneshoted the boss fight hiding behind all the undead.
1. And yet a lot of them do not allow the current (or any previous, let's be honest) version of the psionics rules in their campaign.2. What does Psionics mean to you?
3. How can I get you to buy a psionics book and use it in your campaign?
4. What is an absolute deal-breaker?
1. This is very true.
2. It usually means searching through a DMG(1E), A Monster Manual(Resistances), or the splat book you got the Psionics from for rules wasting game time for everyone at the table, every round the player decides to do something.
It also invites various monsters that no one else has the capacity to detect or deal with except the psionic. Cerebral Dogs, Psionic Platypi, those tentacle-faced creatures 'that which we do not speak', etc.
3. It is likely no one at our game would buy a specific, only PSIONICS book as it would likely fall into the same category of 'NOT ALLOWED' that is mentioned in #1 above.
4. Buying yet another book with player content that I am universally restricted from using. Also see "Ghost Walk", "Savage Species", AND the 5 "Races of ... books" these all fall into the same category of crap I bought and can NEVER use so had to sell on eBay.
4. Buying yet another book with player content that I am universally restricted from using. Also see "Ghost Walk", "Savage Species", AND the 5 "Races of ... books" these all fall into the same category of crap I bought and can NEVER use so had to sell on eBay.
Unfortunately this is a "falls completely on your gaming group" issue. There is little Paizo can do to change most peoples minds on the system if they just "tweak" it as it stands. The majority of the posters are usually vehemently "for" or "against", the middle ground of "could be persuaded" isn't the norm unfortunately for Paizo. Many of the "against" are against because of the type of system (point based) being different and probably won't "come around" if it stays that way. People will buy it if it stays the same, others won't. If it changes those that wouldn't have might buy it, but those that would have bought it might not... If this weren't the case it would probably be an easy decision for them ;)
For all the people that feel 3.5 Psionics is broken -- how is it broken? What loopholes exist? What can Psions do that is more broken than what the core big 3 (Druid/Cleric/Wizard) can already do?Here's the base brokenness: DMing styles (this example is a few years old since I no longer game with this group and haven't seen anyone play a psion since). My DM use to throw 1 encounter per day at us. 2 tops. He wasn't being nice, he just wanted to ignore the CR rules and throw whatever he felt like throwing at us at us. To compensate for his broken way of encounter design, he limited himself to 1 encounter per day.
1 guy played a Psion, I played a wizard. Just looking at the straight SRD, the Psion had 88 power points while I had 2 5th level spells, 3 4th level spells, 3 3rd level spells, etc. Because the guy playing a psion knew that he was only going to face a single encounter today, he'd dump all his power points into only 5th level powers and overpower every single one. Every time. Me, I could do my best spells twice.
I have nothing against the way that Psions are right now. In the hands of the right players Psionics would be thing of beauty. But I also know that I am not the only one with this experience.
While this may be true, 4th, 3rd, 2nd and 1st level spells should still be useful. In fact, I remember still using 3rd level spells at 18th level for a sorcerer I played, and it was probably still one of the more powerful spells I had. Remember that low-level spells are still enough to auto-hit for damage, stun an opponent for the round, limit their movement, provide penalties etc, and non of those really get worse with level (except maybe the auto-hit if you can deal more damage another way). And unlike Psionic powers, spells scale with level. A fireball from a 10th level sorcerer deals twice as much damage as a 5th level sorcerer.
Also, a Psion -has- to pump as many power points as possible when fighting, since psionic powers only scale as additional points are spent (unlike spells, which scale automatically).
What does Psionics mean to you?
Psionics is forcing a change on reality through force of will alone. (No flinging balls of bat guano or polishing a glass rod with a bit of wool, nor waving holy symbols required.) ...this requires rigorous discipline and a willingness to believe the unbelievable which ties it nicely to the Far Realms and madness.
This opposed to Arcana, which is more of a science of tools and implements and words of power (Sorcerers take to this science naturally with an innate understanding of it's principles.)...
Also contrasted from Divinity, which is serving an other planar entity or elemental force in order to ask for their intervention on your behalf.
Corrolary: In order to bend an iron bar I could:
A. Apply the Principa Magnetoreous which states that by applying an oil made of.....
B. Appeal to Desna to bend it for me.
C. Realize the truth, that there is no sp... er Bar, and that I only need bend my self.
Good examples of psionics that are not called psionics:
The Saga of Recluse by L. E. Modesitt Jr.
The Riftwar Saga by Raymond Feist
The writings of H.P. Lovecraft
How can I get you to buy a psionics book and use it in your campaign?
Print one! :D
Collaborate with DreamScarred Press... they are made of win!
Drop the psionic races... there are no Arcane nor Divine races. Best of intentions aside, this only serves to alienate psionics from the mainstream. Allow for psionic variant core races with alternate favored classes... (or maybe an option to forgo the favored class skill or HP bonus for a +1 power point per level. :) )
What is an absolute deal-breaker?
Do NOT limit psionics to mind only effects unless you are going to rewrite every other caster in the system and impose similar limitations. There are entirely too many mindless and immune to mind-affecting monsters out there for this.
I look at the other 2 branches capable of performing such feats.
Can a Cleric blast with energy? Enslave a mind? Move instantly through space and time? Yes.... as can a Sorcerer, a Wizard, a Druid, or a Bard.
Keep the point based system! (moo)
Psionics means Science Fiction period.
Think that to the Illithid, and I'll show you someone dominated into thinking that way, because that's what it wants you to think. Jedi.
I love psionics but I'll make this short.
What does Psionics mean to you?
Enlightened monks, Ancient orders (Jedi), other worldly mystics (Cthulhu)
It puts me in a different mindset than playing a mage. It has a different feel and the "feel" is the main reason I'm staying with 3.5 so yes thats very important to me.
How can I get you to buy a psionics book and use it in your campaign?
I lkie this:
1) Take the existing 3.5 psionics rules.
2) Actually playtest them. In a big, open playtest if necessary*.
3) Plug up all of the infinite-this, nova-that loopholes.
4) Remove unnecessary redundancy. (Psionic item creation feats, I'm looking at you.) I also like:
"Mindblade should probably be a feat line."
But lets face it if you make I'll probably buy it and if you don't I'll use what i have (3.5).
What is an absolute deal-breaker?
Making the system like a mage variant.
The game is not built to be run around 1-2 encounters per day, though.
Agreed, and I will admit that the base system is not really robust enough to handle that style well. But a 1-2 encounter day is a genuine playstyle. Am I saying that psionics should be thrown out because of that, no. But is there a way to tweek it so it could handle that better, perhaps. What that is, I do not know. I haven't played psionics enough.
Novaing is a good way to get yourself killed later on.
Funny you should mention that because the entire rest of the players in that group (myself included) wanted to kill that player after almost every session. Ohhh wait, you were talking about the character. Forget what I said.
A fireball from a 10th level sorcerer deals twice as much damage as a 5th level sorcerer.
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Also, a Psion -has- to pump as many power points as possible when fighting, since psionic powers only scale as additional points are spent (unlike spells, which scale automatically).
I believe that only really applies to the damaging powers. Almost everything else scales automatically just as much as the magical counterparts.
I am also a psionics lover. My first character that I played for 3 years was a psion.
I would love to see psionics in pathfinder, but I hope that it loses some of the creepy Ghostbusters feel... ectoplasm and all that crap makes it seem so sci-fi.
Honestly I think just limiting it to traditional psychic abilities would be enough- telekinesis (including pyro), telepahty, astral projection, clairvoyance, seeing the future/past..
though i did play a shaper, i thought that the discord between the normal magic and psionics did damage the feel of the campaign some.
I am a huge proponent of spell points though. I believe the sorcerer should use spell points, and I think the psionics should keep that. But I think to keep the fantasy feel, they should be kept to more.. subtle powers? In this way I think psionics can exist as some mental mysticism without stepping on the mages bailiwick. No giant fireballs or direct damage spells, outside telekinetics, and I definitely liked that you had to pick a focus, like a specialist mage, but more focused.