If you are a DM and the players are determining the speed of the game (1 encounter and then rest) and you are not adjusting for it, there is a problem with your game, period.Then it becomes a very easy answer to adjust my game so psionics does not cause a problem starting right now.
That is, if my game is no longer working, I will just ban psionics.In that case, if any players ask why I will merely explain that I'm running the game under a different standard, and that it doesn't work with psionics.
In fairness, if you do that you really should ban Wizards, Sorcs, Clerics and Druids as well since they suffer from the same unbalancing power problem when you only run one encounter per rest.
See the following thread for details and hundreds of posts where the same argument is being hashed out only in regard to non-casters vs casters rather than vancian vs power points.
In fairness, you are responding to a comment made over three months ago and you seem to have little understanding of the thread.
This was dealing with issues a person was experiencing with psionics and not other spellcasting methods. So you are just incorrect in your first conclusion.
Your arguments do little to acknowledge the issues other people have with the current system, which I think is going to be the reason that the psionics book will likely be vastly different from the XPH.
Nothing is being said, that I've seen, to adjust the opinions of the people who think it should be modified. Almost all seem to fall under "are you remembering the power point cap?" (I believe that this has popped up once every few pages and has gone from helpful comment to insulting. How many times do you think that someone needs to be reminded of this fundamental rule!), "your experiences are wrong," and (my "favorite) "you are a crappy GM." I don't see any getting traction with opponents, and few posters in favor of the XPH system going beyond that.
As to your reply, I spent a good portion of my day reading a majority of this thread including nearly all of your posts. I could be mistaken but I thought the response I quoted was your attempt to end a discussion regarding the need to run multiple encounters per day to keep Psionics in balance and prevent Novas. If I grabbed the wrong post, my apologies.
I can't recall which stage I was in at that point, it was a while back, but that line eventually got me quite irritated because of the "you suck as a GM" comments that I was perceiving. Your post poked an old irritation.
That particular post was trying to counter the "you suck as a GM if you don't modify your games to fit psionics" going on. It did fail as the response was "you suck as a GM if you ban psionics." Which would be bringing it back to why this was irritating for me.
I'm sorry if this irritation come through targeted at you, I do not wish for that to be the case.
My posts in this thread, I hope, have been less about trying to reveal that psionics are broken and more directed at the seemingly immovable position "XPH is pretty much perfect and any issues one has with it are imagined."
In my mind, if pro-XPH are not willing to accept any change, then a psionics rulebook from Paizo would seem increasingly unlikely, and that anything they produce would automatically be far from XPH, because any significant deviation to solve the issues the publisher has with it would seem to make most of the pro-XPH throw their hands up and declare they won't buy it. It would then be easier and better for the customers to just throw away all the rules because they aren't losing any customers beyond that.
And again, it seems as if the root of the problem is too few encounters per rest period and not an actual problem with the game mechanics.
I might suggest that might be presented as a problem with the game mechanics if it no longer functions adequately with different numbers of encounters.
Finally, as a general comment about Novas why is anyone debating the effectiveness of Psions vs Sorcs based on damage per round(DPR)?
I believe that it was just seen as the easiest number to compare. That spells/powers that are not direct damage didn't produce results that could be evaluated as easily.
I do remember feeling woefully inadequate when the sorcerer player in the game I'm in spammed all his fireballs on the one encounter we were having that day. Needless to say, my character was largely a fifth wheel, and I'm one of three PCs.
Honestly, one of the things I want to see for psionics in Pathfinder is an at will ability for the manifesters the way casters now have 0th level spells and special lasers and what-not. Because without them, parity is even further away. And because it's a nice little thing.
One solution I have is this - create a list of 0th level powers (including, for example, Detect Psionics). One or two per discipline. Each psion can manifest them for free with just the expenditure of their psionic focus (a wonderful mechanic, mind you). However, for powers from the discipline that they have chosen (shapers, telepaths, etc), they don't even need to expend their focus. So a seer wouldn't need to expend their focus to manifest Detect Psionics, but they would need to do so to manifest their other 0th level powers. It's flavorful, it further emphasizes the discipline focus of the psion, and it isn't giving away a ton of stuff (since it isn't a given that you'll get your focus back easily until the levels where 0th level powers should be pretty commonplace anyway).
As a fan of Psionics and a frequent reader of the old WizO 3.5 Psionics Board I would say that all fans of Psionics agree that the system could use some tweaking. In general Psionics fans get upset when they feel that people who haven't taken the time to read the rules ban Psionics outright because of misperceptions based on previous editions or rumors about Power Points being unbalanced.
It would also seem Psionics fans also get upset when people ban Psionics because of actual negative experiences with the current system. :)
Back to encounters, if it is a mechanics problem then it applies to the entire system, not to just one class or set of classes, and as such isn't a reason to reject any one class or set of classes. In other words it isn't a reason to favor vancian over spell points but it probably is a reason to favor "casters" over "non-casters".
This was just the experience related by a poster at the beginning of the thread where the 15 minute work day only kicked in when psionics was there. I'm not entirely sure of all the reasons why it would happen then, but that is just the issue they were dealing with.
Whether or not it could similarly happen with Vancian casters matters less when it was happening with psionic characters and not the Vancian casters.
Overall I think that discussion right now about the system is not going to effect anything as I suspect that it will be quite a while until any thought is put into a Psionic supplement from Paizo and that seeing one soon from Dreamscarred Press is currently much more likely.
Honestly, one of the things I want to see for psionics in Pathfinder is an at will ability for the manifesters the way casters now have 0th level spells and special lasers and what-not. Because without them, parity is even further away. And because it's a nice little thing.
One of the good things from the 3.0 psionics IMO was their method for 0-level powers. So many free per day and then 1pp after that.
The 3.0 0-level power list could easily be brought back for Pathfinder without much work at all (as I believe its open source) and made into at-wills.
It would also seem Psionics fans also get upset when people ban Psionics because of actual negative experiences with the current system. :)
All the negatives I seen were due to rules mistakes or other misconceptions.
All the negatives I seen were due to rules mistakes or other misconceptions.
It would also seem Psionics fans also get upset when people ban Psionics because of actual negative experiences with the current system. :)
I meant in this thread.
Unless you mean you didn't see any in this thread, which I would find confusing, but would just have to deal with.
All the negatives I seen were due to rules mistakes or other misconceptions.
It would also seem Psionics fans also get upset when people ban Psionics because of actual negative experiences with the current system. :)I meant in this thread.
Unless you mean you didn't see any in this thread, which I would find confusing, but would just have to deal with.
I read a few pages at the beginning, middle, and end, but not the every post so I can't account for every post. It is just that the nova excuse is getting old. I need to get dreamscarred press psionics book to see what the talk is all about.
General statement for anyone perusing the threads
If they don't want to conserve pp let them suffer the consequences. I wouldn't tell them they can't rest, but they should not be surprised to find the defenses have been reset or even reinforced at the least when they decide to continue.
I understand it is not exciting to fire your crossbow, but not using a power or a spell after the battle is almost a foregone conclusion might keep you alive later.(Player nova'd in a campaign I am running right before the boss fight :) )
All the negatives I seen were due to rules mistakes or other misconceptions.
QFT. The majortiy of arguments I see regarding psionics often come from players who don't actually know that much about them. Granted, there are a few who truly do know what they're talking about and genuinely don't like them, but in my experience those players are few and far between.
It also stems from folk looking to psionic abilities and attempting to assess their power, but doing so in an entirely wrong way. Psions might look overpowering on paper...until you compare them to their arcane counter-part, the wizard, in which case they're actually far more balanced.
Theres also the "Previous version were broken so this one is too" hype that seems to be pretty abundent online. And this is somthing which does strongly influence opinions and this is somthing I have personally witnessed.
I can recall one game were I throw a Psion NPC at the party along with random minions. The Psion actually killed one PC before being taken out. Naturally, one or two of the players said "Wow, he was so broken". I don't think those players quite understood, at the time I was new to Psionics and so to make things easier to remember on the spot I only gave that Psion powers which resembled wizard spells i.e. he used abilities such as disintegrate, fly, charm etc. Only one power used was Psionic only (Baleful Teleport) and well...if I had used a wizard as origonally intended with Cone of Cold then I can garantuee that at least 2 or 3 party members would have died instead. I can garantuee this since the only reason the Psion killed just one was because baleful teleport targetted only 1 party member (who rolled poorly for the save, so he would have died from CoC as well). I rolled increaidbly lucky on the dice (50+ from 11D6) and that simply would have killed the mage, the low-hit point rogue and the skeleton fighter in the party as well, since they were grouped and even with a succesful save the fighter and mage would have died.
Despite all that, the players were only able to look and say "He's a Psion, thats why he was so powerful".
I also had a psionic warrior once. Whenever he dished out a significant amount of damage in a single round I could always hear the DM mutter somthing along the lines of "Psionics are so broken" or "I'm never allowing Psionics again". I don't think he was aware that 4 times out of 5 the warrior wasn't using any psionic ability at all, the excessive amount of damage came from critical hits (improved critical with a falcion), power attacking and an overpowering plot related weapon.
And again, they see "Overpowering character" and instantly assume it's the psionic aspects that make him overrpowering. Just recently I made another character, non-psionic, using the same battle-strategy and he was was vastly more powerful. He was more powerful since
1: He didn't need to spread his ability scores around in order to maintain several psionic feats/abilities, and since we use point buy this is a factor.
2: He was able to acheive an excessive amount of damage via power attack, even though we're using the PF version (a raging barbarian with strength 30, thats 20 damage from pweor attack when using a two-handed weapon). The psionic character would have been limited to +8 damage from power attack under this version (since even with strength 18 he can only PA for 4 points).
3: The new character did all this damage on his own, the psionic character was only able to dish out as much due to an overpowering weapon (it was +5, had the bane properties (which applied to just about every creature fought after that) and the holy properties). Despite not having such an overpowreing weapon the newer character was still able to match, and even exceed this character.
4: The newer character has less weaknesses. The psionic character had a increadibly poor AC and hit points, and this was a significant factor, one that actually cropped up IG alot since he was the only PC ever to be knocked unconcious in that campaign (barring story-related KO's due to some players not being able to attend all games). The newer character, however, had plenty to compesensate for his one-trick-pony style.
Despite all this again, if I asked the players who was the most overpowering character, they'll say the psionic character. If I ask why, they'll give an answer along the lines of "Because his psionic abilities were too strong".
So beleive me when I say "It's not always due to negative experience whilst playing with them". Not everyone is good at assessing what makes some characters more powerful, not everyone has a clear understanding of what some characers are and are not capable of.
My major trouble with psionics is, that I don't really get it what psionics are meant to be.
The distinction was clear in AD&D, but now that we have sorcerer, how is sorcery different from psionics?
Most books and many big fans say, that psionics is not magic but something else. But to me, as an average player by core books, there's no real difference. Psionics lacks verbal and somatic components and the effects have different names, but from the perspective of a person inside the fantasy setting, how is the stuff a psion does different from the stuff a sorcerer does.
So, if you're to include psionics in a game, I think it's pretty important to give some clear explainations how psionics are different from magic. Else, it seems redundant and psions are just sorcerers with a shaved head.
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My major trouble with psionics is, that I don't really get it what psionics are meant to be.
The distinction was clear in AD&D, but now that we have sorcerer, how is sorcery different from psionics?Most books and many big fans say, that psionics is not magic but something else. But to me, as an average player by core books, there's no real difference. Psionics lacks verbal and somatic components and the effects have different names, but from the perspective of a person inside the fantasy setting, how is the stuff a psion does different from the stuff a sorcerer does.
So, if you're to include psionics in a game, I think it's pretty important to give some clear explainations how psionics are different from magic. Else, it seems redundant and psions are just sorcerers with a shaved head.
With Psionics in the game you have three sources of Magic.
1. Divine
2. Arcane
3. Psionic
How magic is achieved depends on the game setting. For example, in Forgotten Realms, Arcane casters tapped into the power of "The Weave". It was an external to the user and those that could would channel that power through themselves into the world. In this type of setting Sorcerers have the innate ability to channel, Wizards channel by rote learning.
Divine power is originated in faith. Depending on the game setting gods pass down the abilities to their special followers, or the simple power of the faith is enough
Psionics is more about mental discipline/mental aberration (and when I say aberration here I’m not using it in a typical D&D term.) Psionic power (as far as I have gathered from my readings) is about (magic) power originating from the self.
In the end a spell caster is a spell caster, what makes them different is what mechanics that you use.
I love Psionics IE the Force... My favorite Characters, Races and Classes are Psi. Always have been from my first fighter with attaqck and defence modes and psi points to the Psionicist to the Psiwarrior...
To me Psi, Ki, Magic are similar kinds of energy. Like magnetism, electricity and light. They can do similar and different things.
I would love a bakwards compatable version of the Psionics handbook. Have psionics have the same saving throws as magic (as the subcontious mind automatically can deal with it even thought the contious mind may knot know about it). Have Spells like detect Psi available only at a slightly higher level than detect magic (as they are a different energy frequency and not usually encountered by a mage etc) and make available anti psi shells and other spells. Have detect Magic Psi abilities etc available only a little higher than detect psi etc. And dispel and anti magic psi abilities at a little higher level etc. Give Psions the D6 for hitpoints and do somthing with the Soulknife from levels 10 and up as they dont do much after level 9. Add in the Psi rogue and Psi assassin that were left out and boom.
Also - Bards should get 8 skill pints per level and Druids 6, plus Druids should get more knowledge baced skills (to bring them more online with the Druids of Earth legend)... Mages should have more skill points as they are supposed to be well educated...
Just one more example of why this Psion does X damage while Sorcerer does Y damage per round isn't really a good judge of power or play balance:
In Pathfinder RPG Beta a 20th level Fighter with decent starting strength (16 from point-buy or dice and +2 racial bonus) using 4 feats, 2 class features, 1 +6 Strength Magic Item and 1 +5 Scythe can put out 250-300 damage per round as a standard action.After 20 rounds the poor nova-ing Psion is 3500 points of damage behind the curve.
Damage is an easier thing to compare than other factors. The point was, from my reading, not entirely based in that the Psionic character can unleash more damage faster than anyone else, but that they can unleash more power faster than anyone else.
Replace "damage" with "spell power" and the point is still the same.
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The 3.5 version of psionics is *currently* the best version of psionics there is. There was a strong attempt at making it more balanced while keeping its distinct flavor. However, I think it deserves the pathfinder treatment, if only to keep the rules in print. XPH is crazy expensive these days. Plus it's part of the SRD.
Damage is an easier thing to compare than other factors. The point was, from my reading, not entirely based in that the Psionic character can unleash more damage faster than anyone else, but that they can unleash more power faster than anyone else.
Replace "damage" with "spell power" and the point is still the same.
Then lets compare it to spell power.
Should a Psion "Go Nova" at high levels, just how many powers will he get off?
A Psion at 20th level has a base number of points equal to 343 according to the SRD. If we assume an intellegence score of say..24 maybe? Not somthing unreasonable at high levels, then he has an additional 70 points on top of that, for a total of 403 Power Points.
Now, assuming that the Psion goes Nova, thats alot of Power Points to be throwing around. Though let's assume that even then, he only uses about...3/4 the amount normally needed to cast the highest amount(I can see the Psion realisticly using more, but lets use this to represent using powers that might not require as much augmentation). Thats 15 power points per casting (which is very generous when you consider that this repeative casting of 9th level powers costs a minimum of 17 power points).
That's approximitly 29 powers (rounding up) at full blast, and afterwards the Psion is out for the count, no more abilies or powers, he might as well be a commoner until he grabs some rest.
Let's have a look at the wizard, the wizard has 4 spells of every level at 20th level. This totals 36 spells. Another 10 if said wizard just happens to have the same intellegence score as the Psion. Thats 46 in total. Now, even if we shave off the lower levels (though this shouldn't be done so hastily, I can think of quite a few low-level spells that are still very powerful at high levels), we would have to shave off the lowest 3 levels of spells at least before the Psion is casting more. That means if a Psion and a Wizard "Go Nova", the Psion will run out of Powers more quickly when the wizard still has up to 3rd level spells.
Now, firstly, 3rd level spells can still be useful at high levels. The wizard still has plenty of power to buff, block other spell and magical effects, still has a fair number of "save or suck" spells and still has a fair number of useful utility spells. Whilst not as powerful at higher levels, they can still be useful.
What about these 9th level Psionic powers? Well...the Psion can make all creatures in the area take damage and heal damage as he does...thats...useful when you're surrounded by enemies with less hit points than you (not damm likely Mr D4 hit-dice, or D6 in PF)
You can remove powers ...nice, but then again, how many random monster's have Psion or Wilder levels? Only any use if you're up against fellow Psionic characters. He can't even remove Psi-Like abilities, it has to be Psionic Powers.
You can deal 20D6 damage and heal half of the damage dealt. Again nice, but then again, it also requires a touch attack. I don't know about you, but I'd rather my Psion stayed far away from any monster CR 17 or higher. Even then, a fortitude save can half the effect and it onl affects living creatures. Thats alot of restrictions for somthing being compare to 9th level wizard spells.
You can alter reality, kinda like a wish spell, that is, it includes all the normal limitations and XP costs.
You can...do nothing. Thats right, one of these overpowering 9th level powers stops you taking damage but you can't do anything either. Handy, but very situational, not somthing that can be "Nova"ed.
You can kill anyone with less than 100 hit points...so...like Power Word Kill .i.e. useful for high level characters wanting to show off how powerful they are to low level PCs, but other than that useless. Even then, unlike power word kill this doesn't kill the target, so a target with allies smart enough to snatch and retreat could theoretically be saved.
You can turn etherial. Handy, but then again, several lower level wizard spells can provide similer bonuses.
Do these powers really compare to the ability to entomb characters, destroy magic items, gain 1D4+1 rounds worth of actions? What about a save-or-death with no limit that affects any foe within 75ft?
"Going Nova" still favours the wizard, since a wizard still has no shortage of spells (And this is the arcane caster famous for having less spells per day but more spells known). This should also show just how much of a "Myth" going Nova actually is, since it's somthing spellcasters can do as well anyway.
It gets worse when you toss in specialist wizards as well.
Not that any Psion would be stupid enough to "Go Nova" anyway. The last thing I'd ever want to do is leave my high level PC without any class features. At low levels you can rely on luck a little to let that poor BAB give you some use in combat, but at high levels it's "Spells/Powers or no use at all" for spellcasters/manifesters. I'd always want a trick up my sleave for when things go south.
To Summerize: Psionics "Going Nova" is a myth, core spellcasters can do it just as well, if not better. 3.5 Psionics might have some problems, but quick frankly I don't balance is one of them, especially when you consider most of the other glaring balance problems that exist within core.
To Summerize: Psionics "Going Nova" is a myth, core spellcasters can do it just as well, if not better. 3.5 Psionics might have some problems, but quick frankly I don't balance is one of them, especially when you consider most of the other glaring balance problems that exist within core.
I would suggest that the core of your refutation of "Novaing" is that there aren't devastating powers that one would care (or be able) to cast several times during a battle. I believe your argument falls apart when exposed to good powers that one repeatedly can manifest.
I am not convinced despite your lengthy and well thought out response because you limited it to the highest level characters, when I'm quite sure of there being lower level powers that one would actually want to "nova" with. I believe that the examination of a lower level character would result in a different outcome.
Well, after coming late to the table and reading ALL of this, I'm going to throw in my 2 coppers.
I would gladly buy a Paizo XPH. I love psionics, possibly due to my preference for science fantasy as opposed to pure fantasy or SF. I HATE the Vancian system, having learned to play on Fantasy Trip, Gurps and Hero system. I've played Rolemaster as well and while I liked the idea of their 3 source system, in practice there was no difference in the way they felt in play.
Please, do produce a Psionics book and keep the power points/disciplines system. [Grabs a handful of cash for prepay and lurks outside Mr. Mona's door.]
I've seen a lot of ideas in this thread that I've saved for review and possible use myself and I hope that Paizo can add their beautifully unique twist to one of my favorite systems.
Deal-breaker...a new system that made Psi no different in play than any other form of caster.
Oh, and while you're at it...grab the rights to Bo9S and Incarnum as well. Our group uses the Bo9S all the time and you guys might just be able to save Incarnum. [A unique and potentially fun system that went nowhere.]
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Deal-breaker...a new system that made Psi no different in play than any other form of caster.
So, just out of curiousity, would that include if the final PF made Magic use spell points? (basically they don't change psionics, they change magic so that it works almost the same).
And again, just curious, for those that like psionics. Would your view of psionics change if the standard of magic was spell points based? In essence, mechanically, the only difference between arcane, divine, and psionin magic was the source fluff.
Deal-breaker...a new system that made Psi no different in play than any other form of caster.
So, just out of curiousity, would that include if the final PF made Magic use spell points? (basically they don't change psionics, they change magic so that it works almost the same).
And again, just curious, for those that like psionics. Would your view of psionics change if the standard of magic was spell points based? In essence, mechanically, the only difference between arcane, divine, and psionin magic was the source fluff.
Fair question. While I dislike the Vancian system, I'm used to it with 3.x & D&D in general. To me, it describes magic in that type of fantasy world. The Wizard/Sorcerer fire and forget has become iconic and I'm not asking that that be changed. The only other type of caster I wouldn't mind seeing using some sort of point-based casting is Divine. I've always felt that some form of spontaneous cast better suits getting spells/powers directly from your deity. Having a pool of faith/power that you tap with your deity's permission would be, to me, a more ideal option. That said...I don't quite know how to do it and still keep it different from both Arcane and Psionic.
So, no, I'm not asking for all of the system to go to spell points. Just, I would like a clearer demarcation in mechanics/feel for the different types of magic/power.
One recent character of mine, in a now ended game, was a Psi Warrior/Slayer. I'm not a good min/maxer so she wasn't the most effective character in that game...that was my husband's Sentinal of Berai. Currently I'm running - and having fun with - a Paizo Beta Evoker Wizard in a game my Hubby GMs. In a new game being run by the same gm friend who ran the game with my Psi Warior, I'm running a Paizo Beta Cleric. I really, really want the Cleric cast system to *feel* as different as the Psi Warrior did. The Channel Energy option goes a long way towards that. I realize that backwards compatability kept the system the same, still I can dream.
The tri-system of power; Arcane/external, Divine/gift from another source, Psi/internal is, to me, a great option. All three *should* have different ways of using and a different feel in the use of those powers. So, while I'd play if they went all spell point, it would lose some uniqueness for me. Keep Vancian for Arcane, points for Psi...and, someday, let's have something unique for the Cleric as well.
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Id be really interested in a spell points game as I've never had one run. I do know that it benefits the cleric more so than other casters. Or rather that it benefits a party with a cleric. Sort of.
For a different "feel" for divine, try making them a spontanious caster with the full (normal) spell list. It isn't as overpowered as you might think, though it can be.
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I think that the reason I dislike divine magic being labelled as a gift so much is that it gives the conotation that divine magic is weak and easy. If it is a gift, 1.) Anyone could do it, 2.) It doesn't require any skill or focus, and 3.) The majority of setting don't support it that way.
Mechanically, it is harder to be a cleric than any other caster, in the sense that you have to play according to some ideal. A wizard or psion can do whatever they want, but a paladin, cleric, or druid has to be true to something, even if they don't want to.
I usually have it, that the deity gives you access to its high power line. How you use the power, is the sole responsibility of the spellcaster himself. ^^
So, just out of curiousity, would that include if the final PF made Magic use spell points? (basically they don't change psionics, they change magic so that it works almost the same).
And again, just curious, for those that like psionics. Would your view of psionics change if the standard of magic was spell points based? In essence, mechanically, the only difference between arcane, divine, and psionin magic was the source fluff.
I like spell points very much. In the end, I kicked the sorcerer out, took the psion and called him sorcerer. (And then reworked the sorcerer spells into psion powers.) The other spellcasting classes are only different, in that they can rearrange their smaller spells known list every day.
And that really makes it complicated to find a way in which psions could be meaningfully integrated into the world without being nothing more than sorcerers with a different name.
What psionics need is not a different way to do things, but different things to do than arcane and devine magic.
One idea that I have would be to have psions rely heavily on swift actions for their powers, which allow them to make one single crazy melee attack or movement. Or for psions who want to stay away from physical confrontation, use lots of powers that mess with other peoples thoughts and perception. Mind control should be the single most important aspect of psionic powers.
Psionics are the power of the mind, and to me, that makes it the power of the self. And so the powers should very heavily concentrate on the control of body and mind. The psions own and those of others.
One should stay away from energy blasts, ectoplasmic constructs, and party-healing powers. Those are the domains of arcane and devine magic.
I think that would still not make me using psionics for my own games, but it would make it something else than a sorcerer or favored soul with crazy eyes.
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What psionics need is not a different way to do things, but different things to do than arcane and devine magic.
I agree in that I think that psionics should be different from the other types of magic. I have to say I have always seen the way that magic works as being a Triangle of sorts. Mages get their power from books, which is a very structured style of magic, and power. Priests get theirs from an outside source. Where Psionics is the other balancing effect of this triangle. Its not an outside source its an internal one, and its structured but unlike mage magic its not learned from books or any such thing.
Its book learning, divine, and the mind or will depending on how you view it. And I think a Triangle for magic works.
I would love to see a Pathfinder version of Psionics. To update the rules, and help balance out settings. I think psionics bring something that the other magic types just don't.
The other questions were: How can I get you to buy a psionics book and use it in your campaign?
Make one that's good is the simple answer. I would buy a book of psionics from pathfinder just to see if its good, or because you made one. To be honest. But as a fan, I would like to see something that helps flesh out campaigns and such better. That is balanced, as the XPH book is, and well done of course.
Mind you I expect all that from you anyway as the Beta is so why wouldn't anything else you do be so. Mostly I would like to see you make it your own. Keep what you like throw away the rest. If you want suggestions ask Ed Bonny, I love the man's work for Lost Empires of Faerun, and his psionic Forgotten Realms stuff was good. They just didn't publish most of it. But that's because they are the Red Wizards of the coast.
What is an absolute deal-breaker?
A deal breaker to me would be not supporting the product. One thing that irritates the heck out of me is when cool ideas come along, and you buy the book, and it never gets updates, new prcs, or even remembered it seems.
I have instituted the 2e psionics system instead of the 3.x psionics systems in my games. I just have a lot more fun with them. Most people would disagree with me, though. I like a lot of sci fi/fantasy crossover, though. I like it to be separate from magic in almost every aspect; otherwise it's just another spell list and not an alternate magic system.
Actually, I kind of wish the magic system were more like the 2e psionics system as well.
When you do XPH, would you please include a wild talent system like in 2e, where you have a 1% chance of having a random psionic power, with enough power points to use it once per day, plus 1 pp per non-psionic class level?
Randomness in character creation is not enjoyed by lots of people.
And "not enjoyed" is saying it in a civilized way. ^^
So I'm asking you:
What does Psionics mean to you?
Science Fiction RPGs. D&D is Fantasy with magic. Psionics have no place.
How can I get you to buy a psionics book and use it in your campaign?
Not going to happen. Sorry.
Thanks again for the give-and-take.
--Erik
Thanks for listening.
So I'm asking you:
What does Psionics mean to you?
OK, this is probably waaaaaay late & no one will read this, but what the heck. Here goes. I've criticized psionics heavily on these boards for a variety of reasons:
1) Conceptually I think psionics should be inferior (in power) with Arcane and Divine magic. Laws of physics that enable a wizard to toss around fireballs and disintegrate spells render mere mentalism impotent by comparison. Additionally, the power of a god *should exceed* the power of a mortal mind, and therefore a clerics power should be greater as well.
2) To me, the psionics greatest strength should be his/her versatility, and the 3.5 versions does this quite well, both with the versatility of a mana system and the range of powers the psionic can use. The problem is is that the 3.5 system makes playing wizards & clerics useless if psionics are an option. The psion is simply superior. He has terrific offensive & defensive abilities, neat utility powers, can stack bonuses like a wizard & cleric combined, *and* has healing powers! Despite nerfing the Psychic Warrior's Hit Die and Attack Progression, she's still superior to paladins & rangers, and I'd rather PW got d10's & Fighter BAB, maybe fewer power points, than nerf other basic class abilities. I'd much rather improve the paladin to make him the equal.
3) I think the 3.5 psionic system is extremely well designed. Frankly, it's pretty awesome, but it simply overshadows core magic & classes, and *that* I don't like.
How can I get you to buy a psionics book and use it in your campaign?
You have nothing to worry about there from me, however, I think you should realize, that I will not be using Psionics along with the core classes & magic. I am currently working on a psionic-based setting using the following mish-mash of classes:
Akashic (from Arcana Evolved)
Patrician (roughly based on the Noble from the Conan RPG)
Berserker (based off barbarian, a focuser of rage & psi energy)
Myrmidon (a fighter given d12's)
either Monk or Oathsworn (also from AE)
Psychic Warrior with 3 derivations [representing the Palantinate, a Secular Brotherhood(s), and the Temple(s)]
Bloodhound or Hunter (a ranger w/ psionic ability to track & battle his mentally attuned pray, etc.)
Wilder
Soulknife (hrm . . . maybe w/ bigger hit die, or something . . .)
Swashbuckler (using Unfettered from AE, again)
Mystic [Psion with 2 derviations, the standard version and the Priest (same except with complete different disciplines, or "domains" as I intend to call them . . . ;^)]OK. You might be thinking, "So what?" Well the point of my example is that making Psionics even *more* adaptable by offering different variants of the Psi-classes. I think they're are more guys out there with other, similarly independent ideas of their own. IMHO, a Psionic System that was compatible with a variety of campaign concepts would serve you best.
What is an absolute deal-breaker?
Thanks again for the give-and-take.
If you had made a similarly powerful system part of the Core Rules, but clerics & wizards were more or less the same. You didn't do that, so no worries.
My 2 coppers . . .
Nuts! I *hate it* when I make that mistake! ARGH!! ;^D
How can I get you to buy a psionics book and use it in your campaign?
You have nothing to worry about there from me, however, I think you should realize, that I will not be using Psionics along with the core classes & magic. I am currently working on a psionic-based setting using the following mish-mash of classes:
Akashic (from Arcana Evolved)
Patrician (roughly based on the Noble from the Conan RPG)
Berserker (based off barbarian, a focuser of rage & psi energy)
Myrmidon (a fighter given d12's)
either Monk or Oathsworn (also from AE)
Psychic Warrior with 3 derivations [representing the Palantinate, a Secular Brotherhood(s), and the Temple(s)]
Bloodhound or Hunter (a ranger w/ psionic ability to track & battle his mentally attuned pray, etc.)
Wilder
Soulknife (hrm . . . maybe w/ bigger hit die, or something . . .)
Swashbuckler (using Unfettered from AE, again)
Mystic [Psion with 2 derviations, the standard version and the Priest (same except with complete different disciplines, or "domains" as I intend to call them . . . ;^)]
OK. You might be thinking, "So what?" Well the point of my example is that making Psionics even *more* adaptable by offering different variants of the Psi-classes. I think they're are more guys out there with other, similarly independent ideas of their own. IMHO, a Psionic System that was compatible with a variety of campaign concepts would serve you best.
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1) Conceptually I think psionics should be inferior (in power) with Arcane and Divine magic. Laws of physics that enable a wizard to toss around fireballs and disintegrate spells render mere mentalism impotent by comparison. Additionally, the power of a god *should exceed* the power of a mortal mind, and therefore a clerics power should be greater as well.
Hmmm, I’m not arguing your point, it is a valid opinion, though not one I really share. I am curious about your logic however. I find the statement that a fictional wizard should be more powerful than a fictional mentalist due to laws of physics an interesting one. Huh?
2) To me, the psionics greatest strength should be his/her versatility, and the 3.5 versions does this quite well, both with the versatility of a mana system and the range of powers the psionic can use. The problem is is that the 3.5 system makes playing wizards & clerics useless if psionics are an option. The psion is simply superior. He has terrific offensive & defensive abilities, neat utility powers, can stack bonuses like a wizard & cleric combined, *and* has healing powers! Despite nerfing the Psychic Warrior's Hit Die and Attack Progression, she's still superior to paladins & rangers, and I'd rather PW got d10's & Fighter BAB, maybe fewer power points, than nerf other basic class abilities. I'd much rather improve the paladin to make him the equal.
3) I think the 3.5 psionic system is extremely well designed. Frankly, it's pretty awesome, but it simply overshadows core magic & classes, and *that* I don't like.
I think the ability that needed to be addressed that could have fixed a lot of the imbalance is power augmentation. I like the idea of blowing all you mental power (points) for one great supernova effect, but it needed some kind of limitation or consequence that was fixed and not avoidable by this feat or that. I mean it isn't coincidence that PunPun and most of his kind require psionics to do what they do.
Nuts! I *hate it* when I make that mistake! ARGH!! ;^D
You know you could have edited the first post. Just sayin. ;-)
Two words: Dark Sun.
I like psionics in any setting, and I actually prefer the idea that they are few and far between. in Forgotten Realms for instance psionics is certainly a part of the world but it's a tiny fraction of the magic.
I freaking adore psionics, especially the XPH (but not the lousy complete psionic). Also there are some third party books like Hyperconscious really nail the feel and theme of psionics.
Yes psionics is more sci-fi,and the lore behind it (mind flayers for example) do play with the line between sci-fi, fantasy, and weird horror, I think it still has a very solid place in the canon of D&D.
If nothing else, and if at all plausable, I'd see about re-updating athas.org material to Pathfinder, working with those guys and getting the rights to Dark Sun :).
I mean it isn't coincidence that PunPun and most of his kind require psionics to do...
Quick point of contention here: PunPun was first built using something like a 12th-15th level psion. What he accomplished (infinity in every stat) was replicated by a 5th level wizard only a few months later. Eventually, someone figured out how a 1st level character with an 18 INT and max ranks in the appropriate knowledge could pull it off thanks to one of the Fiendish Codex books.
So, psion is capable of utilizing broken monsters and such, but wizards are better at it.
Quick point of contention here: PunPun was first built using something like a 12th-15th level psion. What he accomplished (infinity in every stat) was replicated by a 5th level wizard only a few months later. Eventually, someone figured out how a 1st level character with an 18 INT and max ranks in the appropriate knowledge could pull it off thanks to one of the Fiendish Codex books.So, psion is capable of utilizing broken monsters and such, but wizards are better at it.
The 1st level version also requires pun-pun to be a kobold with a lizard familier, yet I've never heard anyone cry "Kobolds are bROken!" or "Familiers are oveRpowerING!"
The 1st level version also requires pun-pun to be a kobold with a lizard familier, yet I've never heard anyone cry "Kobolds are bROken!" or "Familiers are oveRpowerING!"
I think just about all the versions require PunPun to be a kobold, because you need the [reptilian] subtype and that's the easiest way. Though I think the 1st level Knowledge based exploit doesn't care what race you are. I could be wrong about that, though.
It's because the Sarruks special ability is completely silly.
So, can anyone give me the actual build for Pun Pun. I know the idea, but I never could find all the little things to mae it suppossedly work.
This is one build I found when I went looking for it last night.
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This thread has been a great read. I have DM'd for over 15 years, and had experience with the psionics from 2e and 3/3.5. I must say I agree with the following general statements:
1) XPH was good. Best balance overall, but the psi-races were kind of silly. If you want to make that an option (bonus pp's) then have the character drop one of their other racial bonuses (like +2 vs giants).
2) MOST of the problems people have had with psionics do seem to come from rules misinterpretation and UBERMUNCHKIN characters. Those problems don't go away when that player decides to be, for example, a drow ranger with a panther sidekick (anyone else have one of those in the party?); but they are kind of expected; we KNOW those characters are min-maxers and we build adventures accordingly. Lack of experience with psionics will leave you with a lack of variety in handling min-maxing psionic characters - get familiar with their weaknesses, get familiar with the rules, and make sure they DON'T get to be the shining force in the darkness every single encounter. Having a rules lawyer in the party is good for this one - I let him read all the books and tell me when the other players were trying to bend a rule; he played a straight druid and I only had to worry about whether his spells were legit (I fix'd Miasma in our games before they nerfed it in the re-print - auto-kill from a druid just wasn't fun). The rope trick 15 minute adventuring day was something I had to deal with back in 2e, early on - I nerfed the spell so that anyone with detect magic could find and use the hole. A couple kobolds with a ladder and move silently...one less NPC later they decided to use that spell in the WOODS, and not in the DUNGEON.
3) DO reprint an updated Pathfinder Psionics Book! Take the example from Eberron and integrate it into the landscape the way they did - put it mostly on another continent and DM's that don't want to use psionics can just keep steering their parties away from there. I second the feelings on the incarnum - I put it in my campaign (stole the world from Magic - put it in Jamuraa) and it was cool without being overpowering (actually was pretty weak, maybe add it with another one of the forgotten concepts, or pull it into the psionic fold as the revised psychometabolist, binding his powers to chakras so he wouldn't have to maintain concentration or worry about focus).
Now if I can just find some players that aren't deploying to Afghanistan, I will start up some of this Pathfinder stuff. Downloaded the Beta PDF last-month, looks great, not too many changes from Alpha and I love the simplified grapple rules - almost exactly what I had been using. I may just order a subscription!
Well, to be fair, it's a single mistake made by a single writer. That doesn't say much about the whole.
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Well, to be fair, it's a single mistake made by a single writer. That doesn't say much about the whole.
True - I am sure that could be errata'd away. The feel of FR though - the "TONS OF EPIC DUDES ARE HERE" backstory, the many-times-over nearly destroyed and rebuilt thing; just doesn't do it for me. DL got to be the same way when they did the Fifth-Age thing and then brought everything back when Saga rules failed "it was all just a bad dream / Takhisis stole the world" - great novels, but made the game world too ... un-mysterious?
That's what gets me off gaming in those worlds - EVERYTHING is explored, mapped, there was an ancient civilization there that nearly destroyed the world, and now it's full of ruins, and the deities tend to walk the streets in plainclothes, or at least interact more often that I would think is healthy. The recent upheaval in FR to support 4E emphasizes that feel.
Back on topic - and in the same line of thought - that's what I love about Pathfinder so far - now just LEAVE SOME SPOTS ON THE MAP BLANK (like Sarusan) for us homebrewmen to mess about with and still have our parties wandering Golarion without resorting to plane-hopping to get to UNDISCOVERED COUNTRY. Make a place for Psionics in Pathfinder, add support, maybe explore one region on another continent and perhaps the Red Planet Akiton (could it be post-Coruscation Athas in disguise?). That's one thing I think Eberron did rather well - each area has it's own flavor and class/adventure style emphasis, while leaving large areas of history and geography blank for the remaking. My players loved that, and it let me build hooks, artifacts, plot devices, and our favorite prestige classes into the place without wholesale re-writing of books.
I mentioned this on the original thread Erik started... but I'm curious to find out if fans of the XPH think it NEEDS an update, and if so, what that means to them.
For those of you who prefer the current XPH point-based system... does it feel like it needs an update or a fix to you? I'm not a fan of that system, and to me the "fix" would be to rebuild it in another way entirely. I don't want to do that if that means enraging all the current psionics fan, but as Erik hinted... if rebuilding psionics so that they work better with the core and don't use their own easily-abused (in my opinion) unique point-based system brings in MORE customers to the psionics fold... would it be worth doing anyway?
In the end, the current XPH will remain compatible with the Pathfinder RPG, anyway. What is it that fans of the current XPH think needs "updating" if anything?
I strongly prefer the XPH point based system, and I agree that it is potentially abusable (but then so is the base magic system) so the goal should be plug those abuses while still allowing the versatility of the PSP system. Rebuilding it in a way to make it identical to magic would make it not worth playing as it would be the same as traditional magic. I like the themes of psionic as put forth in the XPH as well as Hyperconscious, the idea that it is "dream magic".
I think the Psion is fine as it is other than maybe giving it d6 to be in line with sorcerers/wizards. Remove the ways to "overchannel" or give them a more significant penalty like say dazing you for a round. The soulknife should just be rolled into a feat tree and maybe a prestige class (i do like the class conceptually) and wilder should just be pruned. All in all I personally feel that the XPH was one of the most balanced, fun, well written books put out by WotC.
Oh and I think you should use my psionic-monk writeup instead of the Fist of Zuoken :P. More powers, more feats, more monsters, more prestige classes, less silly "psionic items". I like the idea that the psionic powers are like mutant powers in X-Men, they are completely in-born and can't be taken away.
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OK, I haven't read through all the posts here, so I may be repeating other's sentiments.
First and foremost, in the spirit of the PFRPG, I think a psionics book should be an updated, "fixed" version of the XPH. While I don't have a problem with that book, I know that others do. But I do not want a Pathfinder Psionics book that takes the name and concept, and then scraps the rules for an entirely new system. That, I feel, is not in the spirit of the Pathfinder philosophy of backwards compatability. Psionic power points have been the staple of psionics since first edition, and represent some of the "difference" of psionics.
As to what psionics means to me; a different magic. The powers of the psychic mind. The ability to control aspects of the body. The ability to read and influence the minds of others. The ability to ascertain information beyond the use of the five senses. The ability to create and manipulate materials and powers through the force of will. Now, admittedly, a lot of this is already covered in both divine and arcane magic. So what makes psionics different? In the case of divine magic, the power is granted by a deity. In arcane magic, through the recitation of arcane formulae. Psionics is the inherent strength of personal will. No outside force grants the psion power; it comes from within.
I want to see Paizo do a Pathfinder Psionics book. I want to see how you fine folks can improve psionics. I do not to see the current system scrapped and rebuilt from the ground up.
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Here is a concept that I could see working in Glorion.
Psionics is a recessive quality that has been for the most part lost for quite some time. It first surfaced in the old kingdom of Azlant as the Aboleths tinkered with humans (and other races) and their methods of controlling them. It wasn't too long afterwards that the Aboleths lost control of Azlant and in retaliation; the Aboleths brought down devastation upon the nation and sunk it deep into the sea.
But this was not before some few of these psionics fled the nation and hid themselves amongst other races. The lived and died much like anyone else long before the rise of the Last Azlanti.
The children of the Azlant Exodus rarely bore out their parent’s talent, if the psionics refugees were able to have children at all and for a time psionics disappeared from the face of the world. But during three weeks of storms that marked the death of Aroden, in many isolated locales, many people received the "Awakening" and had dreams of a "Third Eye" opening.
No one, not even the Gods have commented about this event and none if any of these new "psionicly" talented individuals have any special connection to Aroden, or for that matter have any answer to what became of him.
Most of these people have kept their secret hidden away, sometimes passing themselves off as another type of spell caster such as a sorcerer. A very few have displayed their talents openly and like many oddities have been snatched away by who knows what. Speculation includes curious fell wizards, or even worse, creatures that would haunt the deep seas or dark underworld.
Some few are found in the "Pathfinder Society", perhaps the safest place to hide as it allows them to research their powers somewhat openly without exposing themselves up to the whole world.
This I offer as only a suggestion. I know that I risk bringing down the wrath of those who like Glorion canon left alone. But I offer it as a possible suggestion of how to introduce psionics with as little muddling of the back story of Glorion as possible, and as a bare bones framework.
Psionics doesn't have to be tied at all to Aroden. The whole "three weeks of storms" and "Third Eye" reference can be a red herring in the history of psionics.
So any thoughts?
It should possibly be noted (Even though of course people can/should modify it as they desire for their own game) that there is already information on psionics in Golarion. The Pathfinder Chronicles: Campaign Setting has a couple pages on psionics in the setting (Where it is most common. How people react to it. Etc) and a small bit in the Half-Elf racial entry referring to psionics in that race.
In addition, if I recall correctly, there is also a bit within Into the Darklands which talks about a few more psionic races that live underneath the ground of the Inner Sea region.
The more I think about this, the more I see psionics as an unecessary re-flavoring of arcane magic. I don't mind the concept of telepaths, etc., but there is serious overlap with magic...I don't see the need for both.