Chief Technical Officer
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So, will the Top 32 still be announced on the 20th? so we all have another ulcer-generating week of stress to deal with? Or since you finished early will we be givent he results early?
=D
Still the 20th.
Once the three judges select the Top 32 and some alternates, then the guest judges—last year's Top 4—get to comment on them. So if the regular judges finish early, it means the guest judges get some more time, which I'm sure they'll appreciate!
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I think the first part said use the guidelines from one source, and it gave you the link to a .pdf file. Under the guideline section it told you different things like how to price magical items, what kind of items fall under wondrous items categories, and different things like that. Then later on in the "presentation" part of the rules it said to present it like the magical items in chapter 15 of something, and it gave another .pdf file to download, but it was the same .pdf file. When I went to actually submit my magical item, I wasn't sure exactly what they wanted because I over analyzed things, and long story short, I went with what made the most sense to me at the time which was the whole "If they made the top 32 last year with that format, why wouldn't that format work?"
Say.....are you me? Am I you?
Freaky, that I had almost the exact same experience.
Ah, well .... there's next year and the Pathfinder Society Open Calls, and lulu.com and just plain personal satisfaction to fall back on :)
I can't speak for the *real* judges, but personally, if I saw a reworked item, it would make me wonder if the author lacks the creativity to come up with two good items in a year.
I'm still hoping some of these B+ and A- items can be salvaged someday...whether I happen to fall into that category or not. Especially if the creativity was there (in terms of the idea), but the execution just wound up being a little off. That way, contestants basically get a chance to show they're learning how to refine these older submissions based on the feedback of the judges and the lessons they learn throughout the design process.
Obviously, if the lessons are learned, they can be applied to a totally new item. But again, if the ideas were very sound and very cool on some of these items that fall short, it would be nice to see them properly executed...either in a future RPG Superstar event or a collection that gets released by Paizo down the road as the "best that didn't make the cut" sort of thing.
But that's just my respectful two-cents,
--Neil
Here are some more things we are seeing:
I dont remember where I am with numbers so I am pickign up at 20 :)
20. Sleep/dream items.
21. Riding and/or bit/bridle/saddle items that help the mount and/or rider.
22. Soul draining with healing items.
23. Banners or standards or things that help leaders command in combat.Not sure why we are seeing so many of these. At least three of the four categories had at least one item that we felt was much better than the others of the same kind. Nothing inherently bad with these four item types. Sleep/dream items are not the most sexy items, however, and if recall correctly that was the category that didnt have a real standout.
Sigh. And I was doing so well up to this point in the "don't meet any of the categories".
I coulda been a contender!
Those arent bad items. I know we kept one or two of each of those, I think. Whether they make top 32 or not, I dont know. But all I was saying is we saw alot of them. I'm not saying they are bad.
This isnt some checklist that if you hit one of these items means your item wont be in the top 32.
Well, we have reviewed and sorted all of teh entries into either the Keep folder or the Reject folder. We have 62 items in the Keep folder. Now we will pick the top 32 and the alternates from there. We will likely use a similar process to last year. We will find the absolute consensus items and put them into the top 32. Then we will list the other items and see if we can find consensus. If we can, they go on the list. Then we figure out how many slots are left and the judges get a sufficient number of golden tickets to fill those slots.
I haven't posted before this, but I truly think the wait between submission and knowing is excrutiating! ::laughing:: Especially when you read something from one of the judges and go "oooh, I think that might be me" or "oh, no, I hope that's not me!"
Oh, well, back to working on possible villains so those dreaded three days aren't so hairy, if I'm lucky enough to make the cut ::hope, hope!::
Exactly! lol our items are going to be so amazing that they'll make the top 32 anyway lol
It isnt a one-way street. Believe me, I learned alot from this process last year and I expect the same thing this year. It helped me a ton.
All my responses in one post, some of them rehashing points that are deadhorsified....
I find the number 4 issue {backstory} rather odd....
There are items that have a 1-2 sentence backstory, and then there are items that have a PARAGRAPH of backstory before you actually hear what the item looks like or does. The first is fine. The second is not-so-fine. You have 200 words: do you want to spend them talking about history, or do you want to spend them talking about the magic item?
If you had 200 words to talk about Excalibur as a d20 magic item, would you spend most of that talking about the Lady of the Lake, and Uther, and the drawing of the sword from the stone, or would you talk about what the sword can do? If you had 200 words to talk about the One Ring as a d20 magic item, would you spend most of that talking about Sauron and the Nine and the Seven and the Three and Gollum and Isildur, or would you talk about what your PCs can do with the ring and its drawbacks? Because, you know, unless your PCs include a bard or they cast legend lore, they're not going to know the backstory.
If you're doing a book of magic items or spells and you have free space to talk about history, and colorful descriptions of the creation process, and flavorful descriptions of how it operates, go for it. But when you have 200 words to wow someone with your magic item, maybe you need to focus on the item and what it can do rather than who made it, when it was lost, and what it looks like.
Flavor is great, and it's necessary to make the item something more than a collection of stats ... but the stats are important, otherwise it's just a nonmagical item with a backstory.
But I (and I think Wolf too) draw a distinction between editorial corrections (spell capitalization, etc) and failure to follow directions (wrong format, etc). The latter is more likely to get a good submission kicked despite its greatness.
Exactly. As a developer, I have to put stuff into the right format. Changing spells to lower case is annoying, but certainly faster than having to copy & paste various parts of the item so it's in the correct magic item format... which, mind you, should never happen because you have text examples of the correct format and you can just delete or type over the data that's there. If your magic item doesn't have a Slot or Price listed, or the Aura is listed on the same line as the Requirements, it means you weren't able to follow a format that you could have copied and pasted from an official source. That's a bad sign.
(Now, not having the item name appear in the body, I'm willing to hand-wave that as a quirk of the web-based submission process; if you were handing me your item in Word format and it didn't have the title, I'd look at you funny. And I'm aware that there are some slight differences in the official formats between the Beta and the Magic Items PDF, and that may have confused people--I didn't count that against anyone. But some submissions didn't include a Price, for example, and that's a deal-breaker, because no matter how confused you were about which official source to use, both of them have an entry for Price.)
(That said, I've turned in my share of incorrectly-formatted items and stat blocks, but I'm not submitting something to a contest where incorrect formatting may get me disqualified.)
Then, yesterday, though, it hit me that there was a rather more elegant way to implement part of the mechanics of what it did. Not that the way I'd implemented it didn't work, more or less, but it was a bit more awkward than it should have been. (I don't want to get any more specific because, obviously, I don't want to risk mentioning anything that might identify the item.)
So... I guess slightly kludgy mechanics probably aren't an automatic deal-killer, but...
Oh, I think we had several "I would rather they had designed it with this mechanic, but it's still a good idea" things get accepted. Any time you have designers looking at others' work you're going to have "I wouldn't have done it that way" syndrome ... which isn't a reason to reject something (unless the chosen mechanic is just BAD, like resolving a test of physical strength with a d20+hit dice rolloff or something like that).
{Wolfie and I usually see eye to eye on what is clearly an item that shouldnt advance.}
And where has Sean been in this spectrum?
Heh, I've been in the middle, but more on the cranky side than the other guys.
13. Poorly-thought-through Item (aka Excessively Abusable Item).
For future reference, it helps to think "What would a PC do with this item? What would a villain do with this item? What would an undead creature do with this item?" Something designed with PCs in mind might be very broken in the hands of a villain or an undead (especially given undead immunities to stuns and energy drain, which some items use as drawbacks to overuse), and vice versa.
How well are names matching with their items? Have people generally done a good job of meshing the coolness of their item names and their items?
We had some that lived up to their potential, and some that took a right turn into WTH-ville. :)
As for discussing entries that we rejected, I'd like to say "I'll be happy to comment on all of them," to be honest I'm trying to catch up from late designer turnovers, the snowpocalypse, and finishing my freelance work on the PF Bestiary, and gearing up to write part of the next AP, plus working on the next round of judging (which I hope to stay current on, I let myself fall behind on this one) so my free time is going to be limited, but if you post and I can find the time, I'll reply. Might be easier if it's all in one thread, though, so I don't have to search for them....
Well either way its been good to here from all three of you while you've been swimming through our sea of entries ontop of the rest of things.
Agree with RJM -- thanks, judges, for the insight!
(Still can't tell whether mine's been rejected or not...this suddenly feels like I'm seven and shaking the presents under the tree again....)
I don't really think I fell into any of the traps mentioned so far in this thread myself. But I'm in no way confident that my entry is going to make the top 32.
Hell, I'll be happy if I find out that mine made it to the top 62 they were picking through for the final 32 and alternates.
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RPG Superstar 2013
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Dedicated Voter Season 6, Dedicated Voter Season 7, Dedicated Voter Season 8, Star Voter Season 9
aka Steven T. Helt
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I feel I'm not in any sort of autoreject trouble. But it is hard to have confidence when the process is subjective and you know if five other people had a similar idea, you might be in trouble.
But I want to encourage everyone fretting - this contest was as fun to watch and comment on as to compete in I think. SO it's still a great process, and some of our items are going to be solid, but still not make the cut. We just have to be good sports and enjoy the rest of the competition.
Big thanks again to Paizo and our expanded pool of judges and critics. This is one of the best times in the industry, I think.
I feel I'm not in any sort of autoreject trouble. But it is hard to have confidence when the process is subjective and you know if five other people had a similar idea, you might be in trouble.
Precisely, the worry is there that if there was a similar item the other was more inspired than your own.
Then the other side of me is worrying about the 20th and the worry of "Well, damn what if I do make it to the next round? Now I'm going to have to be twice as inspired as before."
^^;
Were the wondrous items from last year actually 'perfect'? In the sense that they did not fall in any of the "common" categories of that year (coins, auguries) nor fell into one of the pit traps Clark has mentioned?
Far from perfect, and in fact if they were submitted this year instead of last I have my doubts a whole lot would make it in this time around. A lot of focus seems to be on the minutia, perhaps because of the necessity to narrow the playing field.
On another tangent, remember even if you loose you can still write for publication. By all means write up an adventure, edit it, rewrite it, play test it, rewrite it again. Then submit it to one of many publishing companies that would be glad to review it and perhaps make an offer. If you are interested in that bottom line, don't let a silly contest stop you. Write, write, write and write some more.
Were the wondrous items from last year actually 'perfect'? In the sense that they did not fall in any of the "common" categories of that year (coins, auguries) nor fell into one of the pit traps Clark has mentioned?
Oh goodness no! Last year and this year are different. We had fewer big WOW! items. There is no Migrus this year, though a few people tried. There are some great items this year.
The items last year had flaws, and I can tell you that just about every item in our Keep folder this year has a flaw of some type.
I will say this, though. I think no more than 2 of the 62 items in our Keep folder were not in the proper Pathfinder format. We didnt work it that way, it just happened that way. I was surprised when I noticed that at first, but in the end it is very likely that there is a strong correlation between the ability to follow rules and the ability to understand and desing a great item.
some of our items are going to be solid, but still not make the cut. We just have to be good sports and enjoy the rest of the competition.
That is so true. I am bummed I can only keep 32 of the top 62 we kept. There are more than 32 good items in there. This was a hard contest to judge. There were alot more B+ items this year. We did our best. Hopefully you will agree with us.
Kobold Press
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Clark's right. This contest is always tough to judge. Some of this first round is about mechanics and following rules, and part of it is about standing out in a very large crowd.
We wound up with 62 items we thought had the most potential, though we (reluctantly) said "Not quite" to many more.
The final cuts are going to be the hardest.
Were the wondrous items from last year actually 'perfect'? In the sense that they did not fall in any of the "common" categories of that year (coins, auguries) nor fell into one of the pit traps Clark has mentioned?
I've said this before in this thread, but I'll say it again. I made an Augury item. I got into the top 32. Being in a common category isn't a kiss of death, but you do have to be the best of that category. So if you're sure that you can do better than all those other shmucks who did X, then you certainly can make the top 32.
Last year, we kept about 70. But in reality, after we got the top 32 and the alternates the other items that didnt make the cut were A items, not A+ items. I felt alot better last year about the ones that didnt advance. There were maybe a small handful of items last year that arguably could have made the cut, but not many.
This year there are going to be at least 10 items that are real solid items that wont make the cut. The drop off isnt as sharp this year as last year. But, on the flip side, there are not 3 or 5 top items that I am as geeked about this year as last year. But then again, you never know. Christine's anvil was not well recieved. I loved the Migrus and he didnt make it. I loved the crown, and Boomer did well. I loved a couple items that didnt advance far. So you never know.
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Marathon Voter Season 6, Star Voter Season 7
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Clark's right. This contest is always tough to judge. Some of this first round is about mechanics and following rules, and part of it is about standing out in a very large crowd.
We wound up with 62 items we thought had the most potential, though we (reluctantly) said "Not quite" to many more.
The final cuts are going to be the hardest.
I suspect I may be in the Not Quite category...I don't think I got auto-rejected, but perhaps I didn't have enough creativity to my finished item.
I hope to see my comments after submission whether I made it or not, personally.
I suspect I may be in the Not Quite category...I don't think I got auto-rejected, but perhaps I didn't have enough creativity to my finished item.
I dont know. If you didnt follow the proper format, my guess is you didnt make the cut.
But we will see soon enough! The 20th is just around the corner!
We judges are discussing the final items today. We have good, clear consensus I believe on about 20 items and are preparing our golden ticket process for the balance and for the alternates.
This year there are going to be at least 10 items that are real solid items that wont make the cut. The drop off isnt as sharp this year as last year.
That's interesting. It would be difficult to draw any solid conclusions, but I wonder if the difference is due to changes in the pool of people who entered, or if it's a result of the new ruleset being brought into play? I think that perhaps entrants had to be a little more dedicated this year, as they would have likely already had a grounding in 3.5, but would also need to be versed in Pathfinder, or at least willing to do the requisite reading to get there.
I guess the other likelihood is that the discussion that surrounded last year's competition helped to direct and guide a lot of the entrants this year. I know those threads were a big help to me.
CR
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Marathon Voter Season 6, Star Voter Season 7
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I suspect I may be in the Not Quite category...I don't think I got auto-rejected, but perhaps I didn't have enough creativity to my finished item.I dont know. If you didnt follow the proper format, my guess is you didnt make the cut.
But we will see soon enough! The 20th is just around the corner!
We judges are discussing the final items today. We have good, clear consensus I believe on about 20 items and are preparing our golden ticket process for the balance and for the alternates.
oh, I followed the proper format, not worried about that ;)
I’ve been catching up on this thread, and I’m thrilled with all I read.
I’m a professional artist who competes regularly in judged competitions whose results often have a meaningful impact on the competitors’ careers. Awards improve reputation, expand the number of galleries and collectors that know you and seek your work, and allowing you to improve prices.
As in this competition, competing artists expose themselves by presenting work product that’s meaningful to them. We hang our hearts out, if you will, and then wring our hands, hoping we pass muster. Tensions ride high. It's terrifying and thrilling. Just like this is.
But beyond that there’s more to contrast than to compare. Here, the judges take extraordinary efforts to make their selection procedure transparent. Wonderful! One rarely gets meaningful feedback from judges in art competitions. Here, the competitors discuss the competition with joy and integrity, with trepidation but great good humor. Where are the cynics, the doomsayers, and those irritating posers who think they’re superior? Altogether missing! What an erudite and friendly crowd! This is a great competition because the people, both judges and contestants, are making it so.
Here’s what little wisdom I can offer from the often brutal trenches of professional art competition: Enjoy this! Revel in it! Everyone here has made this too much fun not to savor the thrill of the experience! Don’t worry about advancement. Judges here and in fine art competitions use objective criteria, to be sure, but they also have to employ subjective criteria to make their final decisions. No matter how brilliant our work, we can’t please every judge. Judges in three minor art competitions I entered rejected a painting that, in the fourth competition, won me the biggest prize and largest cash award I’ve ever received. We must never, ever believe defeat in one competition accurately marks or measures our worth. We should do what Wolfgang suggests and offer our best ideas to other publishers. Success comes through perseverance.
I’m just stunned how informative, entertaining, and upbeat this competition is! Everyone stop and smell the roses! This competition process -- the experience before the results come down -- is itself such great fun!
This year there are going to be at least 10 items that are real solid items that wont make the cut. The drop off isnt as sharp this year as last year.That's interesting. It would be difficult to draw any solid conclusions, but I wonder if the difference is due to changes in the pool of people who entered, or if it's a result of the new ruleset being brought into play? I think that perhaps entrants had to be a little more dedicated this year, as they would have likely already had a grounding in 3.5, but would also need to be versed in Pathfinder, or at least willing to do the requisite reading to get there.
I guess the other likelihood is that the discussion that surrounded last year's competition helped to direct and guide a lot of the entrants this year. I know those threads were a big help to me.
CR
Pure supposition on my part, but I suspect that some of the more serious entries took to heart knowing the judges desires and went for solid doubles or triples rather than an esoteric home run.
Last year I imagine that there was considerably more focus on "awesome concept" and this year more people focused on making the design work. I don't doubt that some outrageous ideas might have been submitted, but a higher design editing threshold could mitigate their success.
It seems the contest has matured a bit to be more about polished game design, even at the earlier stages. Note I say "more about" not to imply there weren't polished items last year.
However, I suspect that the urge to have solid mechanics first could have an influence on fewer gonzo cool items that worked, leaving the gonzo items on the outside looking in because of lack of mechanical execution next to the "safer" entries.
Full on, unjustified supposition.
Where are the cynics, the doomsayers, and those irritating posers who think they’re superior? Altogether missing! What an erudite and friendly crowd! This is a great competition because the people, both judges and contestants, are making it so.
Here’s what little wisdom I can offer from the often brutal trenches of professional art competition: Enjoy this! Revel in it! Everyone here has made this too much fun not to savor the thrill of the experience! Don’t worry about advancement.
We must never, ever believe defeat in one competition accurately marks or measures our worth. Success comes through perseverance.
I’m just stunned how informative, entertaining, and upbeat this competition is! Everyone stop and smell the roses! This competition process -- the experience before the results come down -- is itself such great fun!
I agree, there really is a great community here. I was reluctant to get into much discussion on items last year because I didnt know how people would take it. But everyone was so mature and so reasonable and really willing to have a great discussion, and the discussion always stayed positive and constructive. That makes it easier for us judges to be more transparent in what we do.
You guys have a lot to be proud of here. This is quite the community.
Star Voter Season 6
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It seems the contest has matured a bit to be more about polished game design, even at the earlier stages. Note I say "more about" not to imply there weren't polished items last year.
...
Full on, unjustified supposition.
Well, since the ultimate winner will be, essentially, a game designer, I'd say that this is true.
Well, since the ultimate winner will be, essentially, a game designer, I'd say that this is true.
It seems the contest has matured a bit to be more about polished game design, even at the earlier stages. Note I say "more about" not to imply there weren't polished items last year.
...
Full on, unjustified supposition.
Sure, sure. The supposition comes into whether there was indeed a general trend to recognize that this year over the first year. It doesn't seem an outlandish leap, but hard to be certain without the data.
I'm looking forward to seeing the content and the discussions spawned by said content. Was a ton of fun last year.
I don't know about anyone else here, but I know that I am not overconfident that I made it, not because I do not believe in myself or my work (because I do believe that what I wrote is quality), but because I know the quality of imaginations of those around me. I believe in the skills of everyone around me. And while I am quite certain I will be in the top 32 someday (and someday after that in the top 4), I can easily believe that there are 32 entries better then mine this year.
I know I did well. I know I improved greatly over last year. I know that I tried my hardest; I editted to the best of my ability. I submitted my best entry. No matter what happens, I am proud of my offering, and I am proud of myself.
I know I did well. I know I improved greatly over last year. I know that I tried my hardest; I editted to the best of my ability. I submitted my best entry. No matter what happens, I am proud of my offering, and I am proud of myself.
And gosh darnit, people like me...
Sorry, couldn't resist...
-Ben.
Nice quote Senator Franken...(or is it Congressman?)
In theory Senator, but since the court challenges are not yet resolved, it is neither.
Heh,
I got up the courage to enter. If I'm in the 62 great, if I'm in the 32, it's an act of the divine. That said, for me facing fears of rejecting and entering is the first victory for me.
I dont know if we will be able to say who made the top 62. I dont think we revealed the top 71 or whatever from last year.
Where are the cynics, the doomsayers, and those irritating posers who think they’re superior? Altogether missing! What an erudite and friendly crowd! This is a great competition because the people, both judges and contestants, are making it so.
Here’s what little wisdom I can offer from the often brutal trenches of professional art competition: Enjoy this! Revel in it! Everyone here has made this too much fun not to savor the thrill of the experience! Don’t worry about advancement.
We must never, ever believe defeat in one competition accurately marks or measures our worth. Success comes through perseverance.
I’m just stunned how informative, entertaining, and upbeat this competition is! Everyone stop and smell the roses! This competition process -- the experience before the results come down -- is itself such great fun!
I agree, there really is a great community here. I was reluctant to get into much discussion on items last year because I didnt know how people would take it. But everyone was so mature and so reasonable and really willing to have a great discussion, and the discussion always stayed positive and constructive. That makes it easier for us judges to be more transparent in what we do.
You guys have a lot to be proud of here. This is quite the community.
We're roleplayers...nuff said.
I already am passing down my RPG lineage to my daughter who is five years old. We sit around and play my old TSR "Dungeon" boardgame and she loves it. My wife just shakes her head.
Yeah, I don't want to know if I just barely missed it. It needs to be atomic-- I either made it, or I missed it. Don't tell me where I fell in the eleventy-hojillion other entries. I'm very interested in knowing what the commentary is regarding my item, but no, I don't think we need to know where in the pack we fall.
-Ben.
Yeah, I don't want to know if I just barely missed it. It needs to be atomic-- I either made it, or I missed it. Don't tell me where I fell in the eleventy-hojillion other entries. I'm very interested in knowing what the commentary is regarding my item, but no, I don't think we need to know where in the pack we fall.
-Ben.
I agree :) The sting of missing would be worse if you knew you almost made it, but fell at the last moment. Knowing how to improve, what made the miss a miss is more important than the ranking.